First Comments on first day of Property Negotiations as expected

Aussie


Joined: 17/06/2007
Posts: 657

Message Posted:
29/01/2009 19:10

http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.php?id=43757&cat_id=1

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
29/01/2009 19:30

Not much substance there eh Aussie?



Just the usual empty words and platitudes you get when going through the motions !

Aussie


Joined: 17/06/2007
Posts: 657

Message Posted:
29/01/2009 19:57

It seems rather childish in a way that both sides continue to make ambit claims for everything on each major issue making the negotiation process torturous. I think they are both terrified of putting up realistic proposals initially for fear of how there own side would react.



Probably its largely a side affect of Christofios refusing to use the Annan plan as a starting point and negotiate changes from there.



Aussie

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
29/01/2009 21:04

phew, i was thinking i was going to have to kiss Garry Monger's missus !!





Nick

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
30/01/2009 01:03

Dear Aussie re 3



The GCs aren't going to accept Annan as a starting point... there last leader didn't bother to negotiate and the plan became biased to the TC side - in their eyes...



I think the property issue will be more of a win for GCs and they will get less territory "back" - the leasing idea..



This is all about semantics.. both "sides" ned to feel they've won something to "sell" a solution.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
30/01/2009 01:41

My God, I need to have drink... MORE spooling mistooks.. EDIT button.. desperately required

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
30/01/2009 14:18

I'm certain this is all a charade,



both sides trying hard to demonstrate to their respective backers

the eu and turkey, sorry I meant to say "world opinion",

just how hard they are trying

while sticking with their many-times repeated irreconcilable positions

I think only the most cynical of people still talk-up the chances of a deal



but then again perhaps I missed something: eg

"oh no if you look at the overwhelming drive for peace blah blah blah

ah'm talkinn' about the "real" cypriots, blah casino culture blah blah

property scams north and south, ptp delayed north south east and west,

the expats had better learn to swim without inner tubes or water wings,

all join the eu together, a deal 90.9% on track for june 2009/3009"



(continued page 94) (yawn)



andre

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
30/01/2009 14:25

You may be right Andre.....a charade is what it all seems....both sides just puffing up their chests and showboating to each other.



The outcome of these latest talks was probably decided years ago....all that needed to be decided was the timing of any settlement.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
30/01/2009 14:37

chronos,



I must indeed have missed something!!!



what exactly are the terms of the settlement you refer to?



what will happen about guzelyurt oops morphou oops guzelyurt?



does it feature a "right of return" for the locals or just cash in lieu?



who will guarantee that each bitter enemy keeps to the deal?



when do think the turkey-eu so-called accession talks may restart?



andre

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
30/01/2009 14:44

Andre

I

have

absolutely

no

idea

and

neither

does

anyone

else



Only time will tell.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
30/01/2009 18:01

Dear Cronos re msg 10



"Only time will tell."



how true.. anything else is pure conjecture or "mischief making"

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
30/01/2009 21:25

dear mark,



I would agree with you when you say about the talks:



"only time will tell" coz time and tide wait for no bi-zonal man



and that you now claim to have no idea about the outcome



and yet you are very well informed on the many surrounding issues



paint me blue, stuff me full of moussaka, and stick an olive branch in my mouth



but would I be so far off-beam guessing you would like the talks to "succeed"?



and if so, why?



andre

rtddci


Joined: 29/12/2007
Posts: 842

Message Posted:
30/01/2009 21:32

1. Is it going to cost the Greek or Turkish governments money?

2. Will it interfere with the money laundering through the casinos and thus the tax/rake off revenues?

3. Will it interfere with the nice little earners of the politicians north & south?

If the answer to any one question above is 'Yes' please remain in the 'blame the other side for failing to agree to a solution and maintain the status quo' position.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
30/01/2009 21:38

One day maybe soon there will be an announcement.But dont hold your breath.There is a long long way to go,with lots of heartache along the way.The greek cyps dont really have anything to lose and the north cyps seem to have everything.So so one sided,

Paul.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
30/01/2009 22:49

Dear Andre re msg 12



YES, I want the talks to result in a settlement..



One that allows TCs automony, direct flights and security for TCs AND settles the issue of property AND will allow TR's EU accession to proceed AND a time frame for complete freedom of movement..AND the question of oil / gas ownership..





re 14 Newlad



The GCs have already "lost" and "won't" lose any more... They have over 1350 cases before the ECHR and 3 landmark cases "won"..



Those that THINK nothing will change are kidding themselves...

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
30/01/2009 23:21

the two cyprus states have been separate for more than thirty years

any reunification agreement hinges on whether the northern lot feel safe,

and don't be fooled by all the vague talk of europe and economic help



the south are most unlikely offer any real concessions because

a) they believe none of the events of the 60's and 70's was their fault

b) they believe they should get back property

that they say was taken from them "out of the blue" as it were...

the folk of north cyprus are not really their concern, and why should they be?



I'm sure the gc's will have done their homework when they stagger

into the conference room with their 80-page property document

and I would never presume to criticise its content,

the stuff may be all true, or it may not be the whole truth or whatever

but unless they smite every one of the thirty thousand turkish soldiers

over the head with it:

I honestly doubt it will succeed in recovering north cyprus for them



andre

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
30/01/2009 23:30

mm,

"those that think nothing will change are kidding themselves" hopefully the north will have some sort of input into the changes thats my real concern.Talat is stuck between a rock and a hard place,

Paul.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
31/01/2009 02:39

Dear Paul, re msg 17



do you think TCs REALLY have a say -when the chips are down.. it's the paymaster that will decide ... Turkey..



Come on Ismet.. you've very quiet ;)

Aussie


Joined: 17/06/2007
Posts: 657

Message Posted:
31/01/2009 15:45

I think another little quoted reason that GC's did not vote for reunification in 2004 and many probably still won't, is the massive impact of ROC property prices generating big winners and losers. Many GC's who can recover land in the North may be winners but the rest are likely losers.



It is almost inevitable that ROC property prices would fall significantly in reunification while TRNC prices would rise until they are much closer together than now.



Therefore every existing ROC property owner and developers Banks etc may lose out in reunification through lower property values.



As they also have an epidemic of Bank mortgages over sold and largely competed properties if a significant portion of ROC developers go broke as a result a tidal wave of forced sales could result. Property owners and buyers may also end up fighting it out with the Banks for ownership.



If significant numbers of TC's reclaimed ROC land and houses this could also force relocation of GC refugees as

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
31/01/2009 19:02

michael the south's leaders want to get north cyprus back



as regards property:

in theory trnc prices would leap if there was an annan-type settlement

(and a boom did indeed start in 2004)



the 2004 offer would have handed over guzelyurt/morphou,

an area rich citrus and agriculture but look what's happened instead:

some off-thread gc leaders want morphou and varosha immediately,

while the trnc (and/or turkey with a nod to mark!)

have now given the idea of handing over "any" territory the thumbs-down!



I'm told the gc's also voted no because they don't want turkey to stay

(but of course they will)

and because they wanted a better property deal

(ie more money or right of return, rather unlikely)



people who actually have a stake in north cyprus and wish it well

can only wonder that reunification should be any more likely

now the two sides have actually toughened their negociating positions



andre

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
31/01/2009 22:57

Andre re msg 20

What you've been told is sort of true.. the GCs don't want TR troops on the island, or UK ones either, but that was NOT the main reason for the no to Annan..



They were told that the plan was not correct - no conforming with EU norms - the right to live and work freely where one likes.. and that their were ECHR decisions re HR abuses of persons and prevention of use of property.. you'll note they KNOW they still own them.



The daft thing is most GCs wouldn't go back, but they want the "right"... I see no problem with that - over a long period of time, and Turks ( rel Turks) should be able to live in Limassol if they join the EU !



Me, I reckon the GCs will get "back" less territory, but the property issue will allow the ownership to be recognised - but they would have to accept leasing the land / property.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
01/02/2009 03:15

Sorry about the TERRIBLE spelling in the post above :(

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
01/02/2009 11:04

40000 TRNC/Turkish troops guarantee it wont be ALL one sided!

Stewart


Joined: 19/07/2008
Posts: 1107

Message Posted:
01/02/2009 13:46

For an idea of what MAY happen, read " The day after 2 "

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
01/02/2009 22:17

The settlement talks continue and there appears to be a clear momentum in their regularity.



It is the benefits that full membership and recognition by the EU to both factions that is one of the attractions. Many billions of Euros in grants are potentially there for the whole Island to facilitate economic development.

The issues, including property, will, I believe be overcome this year and two Cypriot states will be formed to produce the Unified republics of Cyprus.

Turkey will be allowed to remain in the North as guarantor for a designated period. This will assist Turkey in their own asspirations to join the EU. The UN will depart. British forces will act as a second guarantor.



The benefits of convergence are clear to all parties as well as the international political community. The fine details are to be finalised soon and the whole Island can move forward as a unified but regionalised Country.



Civil litigations and pedantics are only a confusion to the bigger picture.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
01/02/2009 22:23

mmmmmm,

Please dont call me dear we hardly know each other,lol

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
01/02/2009 22:27

mark

'AND the question of oil / gas ownership..'

What oil and gas?

AJ

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
01/02/2009 22:27

Waz,

As always a well thought out and informative post.You speak as though you already know the outcome,

Paul.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
01/02/2009 22:36

Paul,

msg 28. Thank you for comment.



A final solution is a certainty. The time scale is not quite so certain but is on the horizon.



The clear financial and economic benefits to both sides are too big a carrot to be dismissed. Cultural and nationalistc opposition issues can be pacified and accomodated for the greater good.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
01/02/2009 22:55

http://www.famagusta-gazette.com/link.asp?twindow=Default&smenu=123&sdetail=7499&mad=No&wpage=&skeyword=&sidate=



Rampant optimism,

Paul.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
01/02/2009 23:22

warren re msg 25



flakey foont:

"what does diddy wah diddy mean?"



mr natural:

"if you don't know by now don't MESS with it"



andre

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
01/02/2009 23:27

Andre,

Mess 31 giz a drag mate,

Paul.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
02/02/2009 13:14

WAZ:



"A final solution is a certainty"



That's what Hitler said.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
02/02/2009 14:46

Macha,

And we all no what a barm cake he was,

Paul.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
02/02/2009 21:59

Msg 33 Macha.

I see no conection with my own comment and that of Adolf Hitler.



Furthermore, post 1945 peace in Europe prevailed, Hitler had gone and a solution was forthcomming.



A Cyprus solution is on the cards and very achievable. The current problem is only a mere blip in the islands long and turbulent history.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
02/02/2009 23:25

msg 35



in germany, 1945, the obvious solution was: partition!

the two germanies were set up as independent states

by their respective backers, by the end of the 1940's



if what you mean to say is that german re-unification

is a useable guide to what may happen

at the end of the increasingly fraught current cyprus talks

I can see precious few parallels indeed



there seems to be an entire industry devoted to stating

that a "cyprus settlement" is coming soon, is likely or even desirable:

and I would be very happy for someone to explain this belief system



andre