Why the crossing points won't close

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 10:08

From time to time some members here seem to thing that the island should be hermetically sealed off from the south..the "border" closed...



Now while that might suit some of you, it certainly didn't suit a TC who regards his country as being "occupied" as was more often than not refused contact with his fellow Cypriots.



He took on TR in the ECHR an won in Feb 2003 and as a result TURKEY - despite Mr Denktash objections ordered the gates opened...



I posted this as a reminder to those of you who *think* the "TRNC" "govt" runs the shop...



http://www.echr.coe.int/eng/Press/2003/feb/DjavitAnvTurkey20Feb2003judeng.htm

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 12:39

mmmmmm

Thank you for this interesting posting.



The judgment found in favour of Mr Djavit An. As a result the Applicant has been allowed to pass across the Green line in order to participate in his meetings.



Turkey the respondent in the case indicated that the TRNC was the controlling administration in the region. The TRNC status in 2003 was viewed very much as a satellite of Turkey and it would be unlikely that the Applicant would achieve judgment against TRNC. His application against Turkey was determined by the higher likelyhood of sucess.

Furthermore, This event was some six years ago, an eternity in political terms.

The borders are now open and both ROC and TRNC enjoy a more relaxed level of access. It is the TRNC admin.that is clearly in important political negotiations. Turkey provides advice and support.



I think that your your comment concerning a total border closure represents a diminishing minority only and certainly again represents past historical differences

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 15:17

Dear Warren - re msg 1



My posting showed that Mr Denktash didn't "run" "TRNC" - Turkey did... the "ECHR" said it then and they have said it since...



so much for your " Furthermore, This event was some six years ago, an eternity in political terms. "



Do you need me to post THAT ECHR judgement, too?



You clearly missed the point .. the crossing points over the cease fire line ( "border" as you refer it.. ) were only opened because Turkey HAD to.. NOT because it wanted to.



Is that an example of Turkey proving advice and support ?! ;)

sparta


Joined: 24/10/2008
Posts: 226

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 15:27

here we go again!! MMMMMMM is back!!

Rogerdodger


Joined: 24/04/2008
Posts: 271

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 15:34

Such a shame, MMMMMMMMM is back, there goes a two sided conversation, leave politics to the politicions, those whose job it is, not those who think it is.

sparta


Joined: 24/10/2008
Posts: 226

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 15:37

dont be harsh rogerdodger mmmmmmm does know more than Talat!! and he already knows the outcome of the talks.. give him credit!!

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 15:40

mmmmm



Mark,

Yet again you refer to historical political events. The political landscape on Cyprus is moving with some speed. It is clear that the TRNC is at the negotiating table of today.

Could i respectfully ask that you endeavour to also look forward and dwell upon the current and encouraging progess as oppossed to past historical events. Solutions will be far better received than your reference to historical problems and issues.



It is a combination of TRNC and ROC convergence that has allowed more freedom of access for Cypriots, tourists and international political representatives. Your stance that portrays yet more litigation and Court rulings only frustrates the clear and positive moves to date.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 17:17

"A critic of the Turkish Cypriot authorities and of the Turkish military presence in the northern part of Cyprus, which he defines as an "occupation", the applicant is also the Turkish Cypriot co-ordinator of the Movement for an Independent and Federal Cyprus, an unregistered association of Turkish and Greek Cypriots founded in 1989 in Nicosia. The movement aims to develop close relations between the two communities and organises political, cultural, medical and social meetings."



Right on, dude! He should be proud of himself for taking such a principled stand in the midst of so much immorality and thieving. He helped change history and started the ball rolling to dismantle the "TRNC".

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 17:26

Macha,

This case is 6 years ago !

The TRNC has moved a great deal forward from then and attains greater respect and approval.

I am afraid that you aspirations for dismantling the TRNC become even less achievable as time allows the region to flourish.

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 17:44

waz



how on earth has the so called trnc moved forward in the last 6 yrs? is it because most of the tcs now come & work on the south & get better wages? reports show that Turkey are closing there purse strings to fund the so called trnc so how is the trnc getting by? all i see is empty new builds, empty new shops, & hotels with extreamly low capacity, the international community will only ever recgonise this island as CYPRUS! no G or T in front!!!

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 18:39

Juliet,

The multicultural presence upon the Island is evident. Both North and South.

The influx of foriegn nationals is likely to continue particularly as the ROC is a European state with open borders for other EU citizens.

The TRNC too has numerous international cultural representations.



I hardly think that the GDP of TRNC is as dependant on the ROC as you suggest.

Current economic growth in TRNC lies at about 4%, only a little below the ROC.



The TRNC, considering its disadvantaged status is doing remarkebly well.

Once the shackles of deprivation have been removed then the region will indeed prosper and flourish to its deserved potential.

It is a shame that you clearly fear this prospect and dwell upon old xenophobic attitudes.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 19:04

mmmmmmmmmm

You seem to sit back, and think of ways to needlessly provoke people. Why? You are articulate and intelligent and even I at times must agree with your views. What about putting your considerable intellect towards suggesting ways that might help the reunification of the island? It would also helpful if those ideas included expats. You could of course, also put forward the case for TC's in the south for a change.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 20:31

Dear Warren re msg 7



I KNEW you would say this was x years ago, and that times had changed..



They haven't - a more recent ECHR judgement - post Annan and SINCE Mr Talat became the representative for TCs ( and some folk who CLAIM they are TCs) says the same thing .



Could you explain this ?



Until you can - your whole argument is based on sand...



Of course, I wish to see a fair, equitable settlement for the natives of the island.. "newcomers" ( north or south) and second home owners should be WAY down the list of priorities.



My viewpoint doesn't make me "popular" but it is FAIREST.. too many folk on here have a vested interest.. they refer to "THEIR" property when it is often CLEAR as day it is a displaced Cypriot's



re 12 Hector..



I've put in my time back in 2004 - trying to get a GC YES... ;) My "intellect" is severely tested by folk who spout historic, factual and legal nonsense... SORRY :(



Your point is well made..

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 20:44

mmmmmm

I am pleased to hear that you are able to understand and forsee the basis of my points.



What is most significant at this moment in time is the political momentum that is evident as current talks proceed.

The ECHR are not party to the talks and at this moment in time any judgment past or even recently past has little significance to the political process that is under way.



I suggest that you shelve your legal provocations and historical banter until such time that the political route to solution has been exhausted.

I am sure that you will be that flag flying supporter of litigation outside the Courtroom should the political talks fail. I fear that you will find few of your fellow country men at your side.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 23:59

msg 10

susanne

let,s be straight here the tcs do work in the south ,yes ,but please dont make it sound like you are doing them a favour ,they are giving the tcs the elbow and now replacing them with polish and phillipino workers because they are cheaper ,the south are experiencing a global downturn ,recently a programme was made by turkish tv on the roc shops and how well they were doing ,and they were experiencing hard times ,so you are not immune.

your claim to a report about turkey cutting aid is also incorrect,you have heard claims yes,but reports no ,there has not been one .



musin



long live the kktc

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
08/02/2009 11:00

re 14 Waz



Warren, what I understand is that you are not able to respond to my pointing out your factual / legal "howlers" and attempt to deflect.



Does that mean you still claim that the ECHR has changed their stance re the role of Turkey on the island ;) ?



The ECHR aren't some mischief making organisation - they currently want displaced Cypriots to use TURKEY'S local remedy option - and I think GCs are unwise not to pile in and test it's "mettle".. as TR has yet to make a restitution order for an a"occupied" property (AFAIK) .



The legal and historic banter is one of the main factors in the CY problem - and WHY the GCs have the "upper hand" in negotiations ..

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
08/02/2009 13:41

msg 15.



NO way do i think the south are doing the tcs a favour! sorry you take it like that! the tcs have every right to work on the whole island, please stop twisting everything i say! And there are a lot of tc children also in the public schools on the south & a few in the private schools which are payed for by the roc goverment. i don`t know what news channel you watch in the UK but it is internationly known that turkey are closing the purse strings to the so called trnc, even a few who post on here can vouch for that!

CJtill


Joined: 02/05/2008
Posts: 836

Message Posted:
08/02/2009 14:18

Though Turkey may be reducing the budget paid to the TRNC, the GCs are more than making up for the defecit by hitting the casinos in a big way. Keep the money rolling in Costos.

Michael

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
08/02/2009 14:21

CJtill....msg 18....yes,the precious principles of many GC's don't extend as far as foregoing the dubious charms of the TRNC casinos and "nightclubs"

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
08/02/2009 14:23

Dear CJtill re msg 18



It is indeed that one of the ironies of the surreality of this island we love, is that too many Cypriots like to gamble .. in the RoC it is reckoned that 25% of disposable income goes this way :(



But be assured, the pinch of recession will even affect the spending on this pastime, too



If you have any doubt I can quietly point out to you establishments in the north that are cutting back, despite the "huge" income from their "cousins"..



Where do you think the income from Casino money goes.. ?



Ah, you were being frivolous.... ;)

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
08/02/2009 14:33

mmmmmmm

msg 16.



Let the path to a negotiated political solution continue.

The two parties are at the table under the guidance of the UN.

I am sure that all parties including the ECHR and ECJ are supportive of the talks.



Anything else is of little importance at this moment.



We would all like to be a fly on the wall. No one outside of the negotiating theatre is clear as to what hand each has and we must wait and see.

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
08/02/2009 14:38

msg18



Each to there own! A gambler will go any where to get there fix! i agree with the statement made by mr c that no casinos will be allowed to open in the south! & hopefully after reunification they will be shut down in the north!

CJtill


Joined: 02/05/2008
Posts: 836

Message Posted:
08/02/2009 16:02

Of course i was being frivolous as the mainlanders probably gamble just as much. Even in a downturn the casinos will be crowded as each punter will still be trying to win his or her fortune. If only the GC church gave casinos the green light then the TRNC economy would be doomed.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
09/02/2009 00:09

Hi CJtill re msg 23



"If only the GC church gave casinos the green light then the TRNC economy would be doomed."



))



Seriously, you might not be far off... !

LondonCypriot


Joined: 15/12/2008
Posts: 426

Message Posted:
09/02/2009 00:16

How about the return of all land and properties to their former owners.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
09/02/2009 03:17

Dear LC re msg 25



Couldn't agree more..



When do want the reference point re ownership to be.. ?

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
09/02/2009 07:47

msg25



quite right!

RObert


Joined: 16/12/2008
Posts: 1

Message Posted:
24/02/2009 16:52

I understand that many workers from Asia and the Middle East cross over to the south from the north on a regular basis. Of course, they do so illegally, but to what extent do RoC police really patrol such persons? I have crossed back and forth many times and RoC police have never even asked for my passport except once when I was carrying a suitcase. It seems that for all practical purposes there is open access at the crossing. Is this a fair take on the situation?

markcbm


Joined: 20/11/2007
Posts: 115

Message Posted:
24/02/2009 19:50

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm you told us we could not call it a BORDER and it was a green line make your mind up mate

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
24/02/2009 20:09

Juliet msg 10



" is it because most of the tcs now come & work on the south & get better wages?"



It is simply not true that MOST TC now work in the South. A significant number do but to say that it is most, ie more than half, is just not correct.