Advice on becoming more knowledgeable re North Cyprus & the politics/history

Yvonne



Joined: 16/05/2008
Posts: 273

Message Posted:
12/02/2009 23:23

Hi guys,

I would really appreciate some advice and tips on what you would recommend as a good, yet objective, book that would help me understand in more detail about NC and the history?

Just from reading posts, I know I am lacking in knowledge and want to improve that.

Any recommendations much appreciated.

With thanks,

Y

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 1487

Message Posted:
12/02/2009 23:37

"The Rough Guide to Cyprus" is a cheap and cheerful guide to recent history and developments here plus being a useful geographical guide to the island.



Lem

Yvonne



Joined: 16/05/2008
Posts: 273

Message Posted:
12/02/2009 23:41

Hi Lem, and thanks for the advice, but I was kind of looking for something more 'indepth'? Maybe it doesn't exist and I just have to read and learn from the member's posts?!

Cheers,

Y

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
12/02/2009 23:44

Yvonne,



Cyprus - Hostage to Hıstory, by Chrıstopher Hıtchens



The Search For a Solutıon, by Sir Davıd Hannay



A Busıness of Some Heat, by Brig Francis Henn



These respected texts will gıve you an unbıased and analytıcal ınsıght ınto the hıstorıcal and polıtıcal framework of Cyprus and leave you to make up your own mınd. Avoıd books peddled around expat pubs lıke G*nocıde F*les, for obvıous reasons.

Yvonne



Joined: 16/05/2008
Posts: 273

Message Posted:
12/02/2009 23:47

Macha - thanks so much for this. I will source these books over the weekend, and hope that in a few weeks time, I will be able to participate in some of the more 'educated' discussions/debates on the site.

Much appreciated.

Y

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
12/02/2009 23:53

I've been reportıng on both sides of the ısland sınce the early 90s, wıth a few thrıll and spılls, so any questıons just ask away

Yvonne



Joined: 16/05/2008
Posts: 273

Message Posted:
12/02/2009 23:56

Thanks Macha. Is it rude of me to ask for your email address?

Cheers, Y

Yvonne



Joined: 16/05/2008
Posts: 273

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 00:01

Macha, just saw your email address so emailed you. Speak soon and take care, and thanks.

Y

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 1487

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 00:06

Sorry Yvonne



I wasn't aware how deeply you wished to explore the subject, no insult intended.



I too, would recommend "A business of some Heat" by Brig Francis Henn which I have.



But for an overview, the Rough Guide to Cyprus is quite comprehensive, glance at the extensive pages on Cypriot history at the back of the book, if you see it in a bookshop shelve.



I only recommend it as other accounts of Cypriot history are usually written from the perspective of their author and their ethnic origin.



Lem

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 00:10

Lem,



I agree Rough Guıde ıs good as a startıng poınt and utterly unbıased. Is your edıtıon by Marc Dubın and does ıt ınclude the reflectıons of the TC busınessman and daughter of the murdered US dıplomat? Soberıng stuff...

batterboy58



Joined: 20/04/2008
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 00:12

Anyone who would suggest you avoid any particular book about Cyprus is obviously rather biased themselves.

I would recommend you read as many books as possible about Cyprus in order to be able to make up your own mind.

This would include "The Genocide Files" by Harry Scott Gibbons, which I have just read myself and found unputdownable and very enlightening.

Yvonne



Joined: 16/05/2008
Posts: 273

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 00:13

Hey Lem, no insult taken! You're a mate. Good to get all the advice from everyone. I just really would love to delve into an objective view - perhaps impossible? But hey, I'll learn what I learn. I did read 'Bitter Lemons of Cyprus' some time ago - a good read, and really enjoyable, but I guess quite dated.

Thanks. Y

ronaldo


Joined: 14/11/2007
Posts: 372

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 00:13

Macha.



I've been reportıng on both sides of the ısland sınce the early 90s!!!!!! But you seem to only have one sides point of view .Just been reading some of yur previous posts. Also it seems very strange to me that you only joined this board recently.

Yvonne



Joined: 16/05/2008
Posts: 273

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 00:16

With all due respect to all parties, if one wants to get into a discussion about 'personal views/politics etc', please can you start a new thread. This post is purely for folk like me who want to learn...

Hope you understand.

Y

batterboy58



Joined: 20/04/2008
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 00:18

Bitter Lemons yes very good read.

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 1487

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 00:19

Macha



Sorry mate, I'm on the chilly Isle of Wight at the moment and the book in question is 2034 miles away in my apartment in Alsancak. It does have a rather nice photo of Girne harbour on the front.



regards



Lem

Yvonne



Joined: 16/05/2008
Posts: 273

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 00:28

Batterboy58, yes 'Bitter Lemons' was a good read. It was so real, and pretty and easy at times, but yet there was an unpleasant undertone... I enjoyed it. God, but I wish I was there in NC...

A friend of mine out there, who is a Turkish Cyrpiot, has very interesting views. Before he was born, his folks lived in Paphos, and his mom, dad and the kids had to make their way to the North for safety.

Yet, this is what I hear, and I honestly, can't make an objective or even a personal opinion on this, because I know, there were Greek Cypriots in the very same opinion.

My quest is simple: to understand. That's all.

Thanks!

Y

ronaldo


Joined: 14/11/2007
Posts: 372

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 00:30

Yvonne sorry ! I wasnt trying to hi Jack this thread ! But please read either side of the cyprus problem and make your own mind up. When someone advises to read some books, but advises against reading others it seems to me as being Biased . All the books mentioned are a must to read including the Genocide Files. Ron(aldo)

batterboy58



Joined: 20/04/2008
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 00:35

Then I reiterate my advice, don't let anyone put you off any particular book or author, read everything you can and form your own opinion.

I have by no means read them all myself yet, but am looking forward to and find the history fascinating but horrific.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 00:36

Ron,



Keepıng ıt real and all that, but doesn't the fact that a partıcular author was commıssıoned and paıd by one sıde ın a dıspute to portray that sıde's posıtıon and no other, suggest you may be wastıng your tıme on the hunt for ımpartıalıty and objectıvıty?

Yvonne



Joined: 16/05/2008
Posts: 273

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 00:37

Hey Ron(aldo), we meet again! I'm sorry, I didn't mean to insinuate you were 'hi-jacking' the thread. All opinions are always welcome, but I just wanted to keep it focused, is all.

So thanks for your post, and I will try to keep an open mind. I'm usually fairly objective (a former writer for a woman's glossy monthly mag here in Dublin), so all I want to know is harsh, and most likely, unattractive truth...which I'm sure I won't find - who does???!!!! But in the meantime, I would like to learn more and be able to partake and get involved in the interesting discussions on the Forum.

Thanks so much, every opinion is valuable to my uninformed mind! And I hope I will never have a 'closed view' and will remain openminded. If not, I count on you and others to let me know!

Cheers and take care,

y

Steve1953



Joined: 04/12/2008
Posts: 298

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 00:41

Dear Yvonne,read most of the books listed above. The Landmark Visitors Guide by Kristina Guysoy gives history and geography;and is not too heavy.



You might want to try the portocabin at the back of the post office in Kyrenia. I had a chat with the old dear in there,and they had all sorts of ex pat books in.



If you find any good ones let us know



kind regards,Steve

Yvonne



Joined: 16/05/2008
Posts: 273

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 00:44

Once again, I wish, I wish, I wish (if I say it 3 times will it work?) that I was in NC. But I'm not - I'm here in Dublin... So can only source internationally published publications. However, I would be happy to pay postage, etc for any publications there (NC) that I can't get here?

Guys, thanks for all your help. You're all lovely!

Y

batterboy58



Joined: 20/04/2008
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 00:45

Yvonne

I think that by now you probably have all the constructive advice you will get from your post as it is now poised to descend into the inevitable political argument between the GC sympathisers and the TC supporters.

You may get some more enlightenment by checking this earlier thread that I posted.



http://www.cyprus44.com/forums/10454.asp

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 00:48

But at all costs (and ıf capable of thınkıng for oneself) avoıd trash lıke ''Genocıde Fıles''.



It's aımed at a certaın market, you understand.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 00:49

yvonne,



rather than immerse yourself in any serious works from the word go,

I'd suggest you start by skimming through the december report

of the british parliament group that was helpfully posted here on 6th february,

under the heading "cyprus visit"



although I think some of the remarks in it are just a little naiive,

it is on the whole an unbiased and accessible account that explains more or less how this multi-faceted and partitioned island got to where it is now



you would then be far better-placed to go deeper into books that adopt

one of the two opposing versions of the history of cyprus



I always think that these two different cyprus histories are like the varying histories of ireland: it all depends on exactly who is doing the telling and why



andre

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 07:35

Macha why do you say the 'genocide files' is trash...I have read it and altho I accept it may be a bit flowery in parts it is certainly not trash...

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 10:34

Dear Yvonne



The Rough Guide is quite in depth, and includes references - so you can check "both sides"



A REALLY good place to start, and helps one understand the complexities of Cyprus..



It's really good to visit some of the places where the atrocities happened - like Tochni - in the "south" - where EOKA B tried to murder all the TC males over 16 - and the widows - tended the TC flag - now so "hated" by GCs..



I reckon it is THE BEST book to start off with....



I bought this book SO many times.. I lent it to GCs, whose EYES nearly popped out as they saw a different perspective, they Tanked me - asked if they could lend it to a friend - and I never saw it again..



I hope those copies are still doing some good ;)

newscoop


Joined: 23/12/2007
Posts: 2197

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 10:37

Any list on "must read" books about Cyprus has to include the Genocide Files.



The author is unfortunately despised on the south side so ignore the naysayers read it and decide for yourself.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 10:47

Dear Yvonne re msg 29 by Newscoop



You SHOULD read "the Genocide Files" .. but only after you are a little more knowledgeable about Cyprus and you can decide for yourself..



Another book you should read is Bitter Lemons.. shows how Cyprus was in the mid fifties leading up to the formation of the RoC.



Very funny, charming, sad - all emotions..



It is especially GREAT if you know the places Durrell refers to and try to compare the places as they are now.. this is another book I lent, and never saw again :(

caulkhead


Joined: 03/01/2009
Posts: 149

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 11:07

Whilst I would recommend reading everything you can, you have to remember the Genocide Files is written by a jounalist and aimed at the Daily Mail type of readership. In my mind it is a pot boiler and probably not an objective account. If you want a more measured account of the troubles from a TC perspective, I recommend reading the little book by the highly educated Matron of the main hospital, called 'The Death of Friendship'. I also found the Cyprus Conspiracy a facinating account of likely hidden agendas and how, TC, GC or British, we may have just been just pawns in a superpower game.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 11:14

Ronaldo. Macha has been around this forum for a lot longer than stated. He used a different name before. His knowledge of Cyprus is far superior than most who post on here.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 12:04

re msg 12 DUH, sorry, I see Bitter Lemons already mention by Yvonne :(..

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 12:27

No1Doyen...msg 32



You are right....Macha (pike) has a more superior knowledge of Cyprus than most of us.

What grates is the way he sometimes chooses to bludgeon us around the head with his interpretation of it !

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 13:24

Yvonne

'Trapped in the Green Line' By Tony Angastiniotis ISBN 975-98959-9-4

'The Turks in Cyprus' By Ahmet C.Gazioglu ISBN 9963-565-13-1

'Past-masters of illegality' By Ahmet C.Gazioglu and Michael Moran ISBN 975-6912-07-3

'Two equal and Sovereign Peoples' By Ahmet C.Gazioglu ISBN 975-6912-02-2

'Cyprus, a few facts and the rule of the law. For those who want to see beyond the deceipt' By Ahmet C.Gazioglu ISBN 975-6912-14-6

'Everthing is about Cyprus' Hasan Ercakica No ISBN number but I can give more details if required.

AJ

Yvonne



Joined: 16/05/2008
Posts: 273

Message Posted:
14/02/2009 17:24

Thanks all for your advice and help. Now to start reading...!

Cheers, Y

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 01:12

Steve1953:



''You might want to try the portocabin at the back of the post office in Kyrenia''



I went there one Saturday mornıng and ıt was quıte busy - but I found the smell of wee too overpowerıng.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 01:19

cronos,



''You are right....Macha (pike) has a more superior knowledge of Cyprus than most of us. What grates is the way he sometimes chooses to bludgeon us around the head with his interpretation of it !''



Sorry ıf that's how ıt comes across sometımes. Very early on, lıke about fıve years ago, I encountered so much hostılıty on these BBs just for showıng the ınternatıonal vıew that I decıded to stop the Mr Nıce guy stuff to those who aren't worth the effort.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 01:24

AJ,



Now why oh why would you be recommendıng almost entırely Turkısh books to someone who has made ıt clear they want to get the bıg pıcture? Especıally when one of saıd books was wrıtten by Denktas' former spın doctor.



For ımpartılaıty and objectıvıty, that would regıster barely a flıcker on the credıbılıty-ometer.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 06:36

Offering a book by an author who was married to a Greek Cypriot and has two half GC children by her as 'respected and unbiased' is of course a great way to register highly on the credibility meter.



That is sarcasm btw 'Macha'.



To describe Christoper Hitchens as unbiased re the Cyprus issue it just ridiculous.



Also it is ridiculous to suggest that one can not gain insight from reading works that present a given side of the story, provided one does so within that context. The Genocide Files is no less a worthy read for those seeking insight into the Cyprus problem as say Clerides' book(s) 'My Deposition'.



As to your other suggestions , Sir David Hanay's book is about negotiations for a settlment from 1996 onwards and contains a mere 10 pages on the Historical background 1960-1996. The third is about the evnts of 194 from a UNFICYP persective and not about the CYprus issue in general. One might think you dont want people looking back before 1974 Macha.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 06:45

Yvonne there is no such thing as 'unbiased' accounts or analysis of the Cyprus problem. They are all written from a certain perspective and should be read within that context. Having said that one of the best and most balanced online resources re the cyprus problem must be the webiste http://www.cyprus-conflict.net



unfortunately it is currently no longer an active site however it can be accessed through 'archive.org' (a project that seeks to keep a history of web sites).



The main page via this route can be found here



http://web.archive.org/web/20070928054258/www.cyprus-conflict.net/www.cyprus-conflict.net/index.html



I suggest you start with the 'main narrative' found there and then branch out from there. The site also has a resources section along with a bibliography.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 07:20

There are also a couple of TV programmes about Cyprus available here



http://www.talkcyprus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6



that may be of some intertest. The quality is not great and the first is not complete. The first (in two parts) looks at events leading upto Cyprus gainning it's independance in 1960, principaly from a British perspective.



The second is from a TV series called frontiers and is presented by Christopher Hitchens.



These are probably best viewed after reading the main narrative section from the cyprus-conflict.net website mentioned in the post above.

throstle


Joined: 26/05/2008
Posts: 85

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 10:51

Take a trip to vilaage Tashkent TRNC

Then go South for the other point of view

We did it opposite way round, having visited South before North, whilst looking to buy

Read quite a few books along the way

Make up your own mind, always better

Throstle4eva

dobbo



Joined: 13/06/2007
Posts: 72

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 11:48

I find the on line newspaper the Cyprus Mail is quite unbiased there is a good article today called: The beautiful people, enosis, partition and our bloody mess by Nicos Rolandis.

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 14:42

I see the little sailor Turd is back to hijacking the threads again.



Mr Nice guy lark..........In another dream maybe.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 15:03

msg 39



can you buy a credibility-ometer at maplins?



there are lots of special offers there at the moment

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 15:08

nice to see you posting on this forum erolz. your knowledge of cyprus is second to none

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 02:28

msg msg 41 and 2



Very informative. A recommended and unbiased selection of readings.



Thank you.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 09:57

Hi Erolz, re msg 4



"Offering a book by an author who was married to a Greek Cypriot and has two half GC children by her as 'respected and unbiased' is of course a great way to register highly on the credibility meter. "



Erolz is in the building.. and STRAIGHT in with an "attempt" at sarcasm..;)



"To describe Christoper Hitchens as unbiased re the Cyprus issue it just ridiculous. "



Erolz, you'll need to expand on this comment. I FAIL to see how the ethnicity of a wife, and an ex-wife at that, could label an author of books on Cyprus that are critical of the Greek right wing Junta and the part it played in Cyprus ..



An example...I was married to an Irish Catholic - did that make me sympathetic to the IRA, or as I'm married to a Russian, does that make me pro Russian policy in Chetchniya or any less critical of cover ups re the Beslan school massacre?



If that is your methodology to "discredit" Hitchens works( and Macha) then I'd worry more about *your* "creditability me

Stewart


Joined: 19/07/2008
Posts: 1107

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 12:04

Lots of recommendations here! Thanks to those giving some suggestions - I too will be picking up some of these.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 12:19

Christoper Hitchens work on Cyprus is inhernetly from a GC perspective. One only has to read the works to see that and it would be true even if he had no direct personal connection to the GC community. That he was in fact married to a GC woman and has 2 children by her that are part GC explains where this bias comes from but that bias exists in its own right.



What I am pointing out here is that 'Macha' rubbishes and dismisses Harry Scott Gibbons , who is a respected journalist just as Hitchens is, merely because they were comissioned by Denktash and they recount events from a TC perspective. He then presents Hitchens work as 'unbaised' when in fact it comes from GC perspective and totaly fails to mention Hitchens close and direct personal connection to the GC community.



Both Hitchen's work and Gibbon's work are useful sources about the Cyprus problem provided you understand the perspectives they come from. Read either believing it to be unbiased and you have a problem.

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 12:34

The Death of Friendship and the Genocide Files both have their place,and act as a couterbalance to the propaganda issued from RoC and cretinous individuals like Trevor McDonald.These books do have a bias as does every single book,that has ever been written about the politics/culture of Cyprus.To deny certain books,which are well researched,credibility,is for people whose intellectual capacities are.....shall we say....limited.People MUST learn from history,and it is only be reading such texts that we find out what REALLY went on!

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 12:59

dee msg 27,



I described Genocide Files as trash because ıt makes no attempt to portary both sides of the Cyprus problem. So people wishing to learn more about the historical and polıtıcal framework of Cyprus avoıd ıt, and you won't see ıt recommended by any serıous revıewers. In fact ıt gets slated.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 13:03

erolz:



''The Genocide Files is no less a worthy read for those seeking insight into the Cyprus problem as say Clerides' book(s) 'My Deposition'.



ı wouldn't recommend eıther of them, old son. And ın any case, Clerıdes' book is autobıographical, so why are you even comparing ıt?

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 13:05

Tiggy:



''I see the little sailor Turd is back to hijacking the threads again.''



Which member are you calling a ''Turd'', Tiggy? Are you aware of board rules or do you think they don't apply to you?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 13:07

Hi Erolz re msg 51



"Christoper Hitchens work on Cyprus is inhernetly from a GC perspective. One only has to read the works to see that"



Sorry, mate, but as you say yourself - one book was commissioned by "Denktator" and t'other was NOT commissioned by any GC body.. it roundly condemns the right wing GCs and the US involvement..



I STILL fail to see how being married to someone will make you biased to their ethnicity.. my good lady and I don't agree lots of things re our respective nations attitude to each other... !



One book offers in insight into the causes and effects or the whole CY problem - t'other is unquestionably one sides and offers some dubious claims / sources..



"Both Hitchen's work and Gibbon's work are useful sources about the Cyprus problem provided you understand the perspectives they come from."



Ok, now that IS"poppycock"! ;)



"Read either believing it to be unbiased and you have a problem."



The basis for your deciding "bias" is more worrying ;)

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 13:10

erolz:



'''Macha' rubbishes and dismisses Harry Scott Gibbons , who is a respected journalist...''



Respected by WHO exactly, Erolz?

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 13:16

Erolz:



''He then presents Hitchens work as 'unbaised' when in fact it comes from GC perspective and totaly fails to mention Hitchens close and direct personal connection to the GC community.''



So does that mean because I am a Britısh citizen I can't write an unbiased story about British politics? Or cover a hıgh court murder trial ıf the accused is a fellow Brit?



The racial paranoıa ıs hugely evident among incestous lıfe ın north Cyprus, but surely even you can realise how ludicrous your statements sound to more worldy and travelled people?

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 13:21

Macha msg 27,its an awful long-time since I read anything as myopic as what you have written.Harry Scott Gibbons knows more about middle east/Cyprus than you could ever dream of knowing.What a patronising,glaucomatous view of other people you have developed.......you really do have a problem.

I can reccommend a very good behavioural psychologist......it may be expensive though......you are going to require a huge amount of remedial work.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 13:23

Macha just because it is slightly biased toward the TC side does not make it trash, HSG is a respected journo as is Trevor Macdonald, both have their own agenda.



Who exactly has slated the Genocide Files? cany you give me some names please?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 15:43

Dear Dee, re msg 60



And what PRAY, good would that do..!?



On your current record - when confronted with evidence of anything you don't want to believe / rather not hear .... well you know... ;)





Clarets re msg 59

:D





Well I am "neuropaenic, glaucomatous" and Macha is "Myopic"...



Does the GMC know you are handing out diagnoses without physical examinations ;) ?!



To Macha: "I can reccommend a very good behavioural psychologist......it may be expensive though......you are going to require a huge amount of remedial work."



"Harry Scott Gibbons knows more about middle east/Cyprus than you could ever dream of knowing." ..



Once again, subjective, and I'll bet, not even true...



Now what was that about being patronising ?... :P

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 16:12

Firstly appologies to the original poster - this thread is drifting badly now into the usual suspects with the usual lines and tactics.



re msg 53

Just because a book tells the story from one side does not make it worthless. Especially when 90% of the books available tell the other side of the story. Your selections did not offer balanced coverage at all. They all focused on events from the 70's onwards and offer almost nothing prior to that - which is a classic GC approach to the Cyprus problem. My suggestion of the cyprus-conflict.net website as a good balanced starting point for someone comming to the Cyprus issue for the first time was a genuine effort to help the orginal poster without pushing an agenda of my own.



Re 54

As a source Clerides' autobiography is an essnetial read for those that wish to try and best understand the Cyprus problem. His whole life has been shaped by the Cyprus problem and he was a key player involved in every aspect of it from the 50's onwards.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 16:29

re msg 56



You are totaly unable to see or understand your own bias re the Cyprus issue so it does not surpise me that you are unable to appreciate Mr Hitchens either.



When I first read his book I was shocked and surprised as to how someone could have formed such a GC slanted world view of the Cyprus problem. It was only later that I discovered his direct personal conection to the GC community and then the context of the book became much clearer to me. Such a connection does not have to mean one becomes infected by an underlying bias but I am afraid in Mr Hitchens case cleary it did.



Why is my statement 'poppycock' ?



The basis on which I am of the view that Mr Hitchens book comes from a GC perspective is SOLELY its content and more glaringly those ares it does NOT cover. His direct close personal connection to the GC community explains this phenomeon.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 16:34

re msg 57



Smiley no withstanding, the fact is that Mr Gibbions has had an extremely sucsessful career as a journalist , certainly more sucsessful than most - yourself included.

batterboy58



Joined: 20/04/2008
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 17:33

If one was to research all available material available and then form an opinion that came down clearly on one side or another. Would they be accused of being biased or is it a matter of opinion.

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 17:37

Macha

I am close to completing my library of books and articles concerning Cyprus history but I feel you may be hiding something from us. As a 'respected' hack I am sure you have penned a few books yourself regarding the present subject being discussed. If not books then maybe major unbiased paper/newspaper articles that you could provide links to or copies thereof.

In anticipation.

AJ

Steve1953



Joined: 04/12/2008
Posts: 298

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 17:54

AJ is right Pikey - you must have more pearls of wisdom - a couple of the books you recommended were difficult to get hold of or "heavy" in content - any easy reads.

Incidently,are there a lot of cats around the back of the P.O - and did you find any good reads inside/ must admit some of 'em in there were brought in by Adam or from a dentists waiting room,welcome back,Steve

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 18:29

re 65



Batterboy I do not think that anyone who has a well rounded knowledge of the Cyprus problem would or could 'come down clearly on one side or another'. Personaly I 'research' the Cyprus issue because I seek to understand it, how it came about, why the things that happened happend and hopefuly gain some idea as to how we can do better going forward.



The problem with this is that there is so much propaganda spread by all sides and finding one's way through that to some sort of objective truth or reality is very hard.



I find the cyprus-conflict.net approach of looking at main alternate 'narratives' is a useful one. Just to give one example the classic GC narative (and for that matter MM's and Pikey's / Macha whatever he is calling himself today) says that the TC in 1963 withdrew from the RoC government as part of a strategy to force a break down of the ROC and achieve Taksim (partition). The TC narrative is very different on this point (and many others).

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 19:02

Dear Erolz re msg 63



"Both Hitchen's work and Gibbon's work are useful sources about the Cyprus problem provided you understand the perspectives they come from."



Ok, now that IS"poppycock"! ;)



Because as we discussed one is a commissioned propaganda exercise.. and you still persist in the folly of associating marriage to a GC as meaning one's bias would lean towards that group..



Example we know a journo who hasa pad in the "north" whom you claim is biased to GCs !!



I would NEVER suggest your lineage caused you to be biased, so I am at a loss as to how you feel you can "label" folk so easily..



My sympathy lies with TCs/GCs - but they have had lousy leadership and the way it handled the property issue - BADLY - compared to GCs is borne out with the ECHR rulings to date.

re 68

"the TC in 1963 withdrew from the RoC government as part of a strategy to force a break down of the ROC and achieve Taksim (partition). ".. used by you as an example of bias.. records seem to

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 20:34

Hitchen's work IS biased towards a GC world view. That is plain from reading the work and nothing to do with his connections. It was my view BEFORE I knew of his connections. He could have no connection to the GC community and it would still be biased towards a GC perspective. It is what he SAYS that shows the bias. The connection just goes some way to explain that bias and place his work in context.



You have in the past said I hold certain views because of my 'connection' to the TC community as well as saying I hold certain views because of my ownership of property in the North. Not as much as 'Macha' does. He does this constantly and you have never to my knowledge said anything about Maca doing this.



The differnet ways property was handled north and south post 74 is because of the different 'numerics'. When 20% of your land is 'disputed' you have way more options re how you handle such land than when 80% is disputed. Simple reality.

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 16:13

msg 55. I think that you can work that one out for yourself....being the know all you make out to be. Are you concerned for another user or have I hit a nerve.



Now... if that isn’t a coincidence, from where I come from......the word "macha" is known as another name for having a crap. (No offence to other readers) funny what you learn on the forum.



Have a nice day, to all sincere users.

ROBIN HOOD


Joined: 26/05/2008
Posts: 238

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 16:24

Has aqnyone read "the Cyprus Conspiracy". I'm about halfway through and the blame as far as this book goes is about 75% GB (Good old Harold McMillan and Douglas Home. And the rest down to the good old USA Kissinger Nixon an Co. When you read it. It's very difficult to believe how incredibly shortsighted the cointitution of independance was. Nothing much more than a list of things that "The new republic" had to do to protect Britain's strategic interests, Nato's stratgic interests, America's strategic interests and above all stop Cyprus becomming another Cuba. Kissinger, McMillan and co all agreed that if partition was the the onlya way then this was preferable to Enosis´, since Karamalis was also leaning towards the communists and Soviet Block. Interethnic strife was "encouraged" to create the environment for an intervention by a "Guarantor".

ROBIN HOOD


Joined: 26/05/2008
Posts: 238

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 16:27

Has anyone read "the Cyprus Conspiracy". I'm about halfway through and the blame as far as this book goes is about 75% GB (Good old Harold McMillan and Douglas Home). And the rest down to the good old USA Kissinger Nixon an Co. When you read it. It's very difficult to believe how incredibly shortsighted the constitution of independance was. Nothing much more than a list of things that "The new republic" had to do to protect Britain's strategic interests, Nato's stratgic interests, America's strategic interests and above all stop Cyprus becomming another Cuba. Kissinger, McMillan and co all agreed that if partition was the the only way then this was preferable to "Enosis", since Karamalis was also leaning towards the communists and Soviet Block. Interethnic strife was "encouraged" to create the environment for an intervention by a "Guarantor". Nasser and Suez were very fresh memories, and the soviets were supplying EOKA.

Yvonne



Joined: 16/05/2008
Posts: 273

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 22:02

I've ordered 'The Genocide Files' and 'A Business of Some Heat' so looking forward to getting stuck in and seeing what I think.

Y

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 22:07

post back your thoughts yvonne ,

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 22:07

And that's the crux of it Yvonne.....see what YOU think....not be told how to think !

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 21:46

All gone quiet since msg66.........not suprised though

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 21:50

everyones reading..

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 21:54

Turtle

I am not surprised either.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 06:51

re msg 72/73



Cypriots blaming all thier woes on Britain / US / international community is a common and popular practice here in Cyprus, both sides. In my personal view whilst outside powers certainly do have some culpability for the mess that is Cyprus today, Cypriots must face up to the role Cypriots played in creating this mess. A good 'balance' for the many accusations laid at the door of Britain by Cypriots and an intersting book in general is John Reddaway's 'Burdened with Cyprus'.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 08:51

Re 70 msg Erolz

"Hitchen's work IS biased towards a GC world view." It is neither "plain" nor "obvious" .. your comment is subjective - as is mine.. let readers decide..



"You have in the past said I hold certain views because of my 'connection' to the TC community as well as saying I hold certain views because of my ownership of property in the North. "



1/ Yes, I've said you grew up hearing one side of stories..



2/ re - property - "NAUGHTY", Erolz.. There is nought "wrong" with non Cypriots buying on pre 74 Foreign / TR deeded land / property.. it is clear it's ownership is not disputed... and I advise getting it checked out and may be even registered in the RoC Land Registry.. Macha "moans" about things in the north that aren't "right".. IF you took your "bias" hat off, you'd see that..



"refugee status" deeds in the south can't be transferred to non "refugees" and the understanding is that the land AIN'T theirs to sell for private gain BIG Difference.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 18:25

MM in post 69



"I would NEVER suggest your lineage caused you to be biased, so I am at a loss as to how you feel you can "label" folk so easily.. "



MM in post 81



"Yes, I've said you grew up hearing one side of stories.. "



Re Hitchens. Just read the cyprus-conflict.net main narrative then read Hitchens work and then decide if Hitchens carries any bias. I have done and the answer is clear to me.



The fact is that you on occasions and 'Macha' regularly claim that because I own disputed property I am bias. You see nothing wrong with this. Yet for me to even suggest that Hitchens view on Cyprus is colored by his direct personal connection to the GC community is somehow an outrageous act as far as you are concerned.



As far as property being disputed , of course it is disputed. If it was not disputed there would not be cases before the ECHR and elsewhere. Refering to property as disputed says no more about it other than the fact that there is a dispute which is 100% true.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 18:06

erolz:



"When 20% of your land is 'disputed' you have way more options re how you handle such land than when 80% is disputed. Simple reality."



So to use your own analogy, if I'm in a high crime area with dodgy and corrupt law enforcement, I may as well become an immoral thieving lowlife because everyone else is doing it and the "authorities" allow me to do it!



Fact 1 - You live in GC property.



Fact 2 - My place is a Pre-74 Turkish.



Fact 3 - Both these properties are in the north.



Guess what the analogy is that I don't need to make?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 20:31

'Macha'

When MM makes the point that the GC did not do with property post 74 what the TC did as an indication of how much worse the TC are compared with GC it has to be pointed out that the difference in how property on each side was treated post 74 has nothing to do with differences between GC and TC communites morals or respect for law and everything to do with the practicalites of the situation post 74. If after 74 the GC had ended up with an area of land where only 20% of it was undisputed they would have done the same as the TC community did.



As ever 'Macha' you 'facts' are anything but.



I do not live IN a GC property. I live in a property built after 74 that is on land that was GC pre 74. Land that had no property on it pre 74, was next to worthless at that time and was never lived on by anyone or used for anything except perhaps some goat grazing.

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 20:44

erolz



maybe the 'goat grazing land' as you put it means nothing to you but it at one time did make a living for the person that owns it, by letting his goats graze on it. He still does own it! if that person still had the use of his land maybe he would have built a house on it for a member of his family, you never know after reunification you may be in the same situation as the orams, or even before reunification if the gc so wishes!!!!

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 20:50

msge 84



Erolz said



"post 74 has nothing to do with differences between GC and TC communites morals or respect for law and everything to do with the practicalites of the situation post 74"



Absolutely spot on Erolz.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 20:55

A few more facts



I am a Cypriot. I live in Cyprus. I live less than 1km from the village where my father grew up. My family suffered and lost way more than a small plot of land that my father paid for with real money. You never say that my families loss matters or should be compensated for and nor do my family complain and wail and shout to the world about this suffering and loss.



The implication that I am an immoral theiving lowlife is just typical of you.



You bought property in the North that was cheaper than anywhere else in the Med and cheaper than in the South. It was cheaper in the North because of the suffering of Cypriots. The North was less spolit than the South because of the suffering of Cypriots. So you have a nice cheap holiday home in MY country off the back of the suffering of Cypriots including my family and you lecture ME on morals ! You could have bought in the South or elsewhere in the Med. Why didnt you ? Why did you buy in the North ?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 21:05

Juliet



If I had to loose what has been my home for the last seven years in order for renuification to be achieved then so be it. I do not fear loosing it. My family has lost things incalculably more valuable than a small plot of land and it still survives and perseveres. If you and your family had lost what mine had then you would know that there are things that matter way more than property and financial loss. These things are only things and can be replaced. What my family lost can never be replaced. Maybe that's why it seems like people like yourself care nothing for such loss and think that money and property are the only things that matter and count.

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 21:07

well said erolz,,,,

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 21:17

erolz



Its a shame you don`t know me! i fully understand your views as i also have family that suffered as yours did, my point though is why buy gc land when being a tc you could have had a rent free property, or come back to the south & reside in your property here and after 6mnts sell it & buy genuine land on the north if you so wished ? ps, as a cypriot i would only think of living in the north after reunification.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 21:20

a friend of mine here in britain ,cannot give any names as most cypriots know the man in question allowed his neighbour to graze his horses and some deer on his land .



however the horses and the deer kept wandering to close to the main house and eating some of the flowers ,so the man put up some fencing ,just to stop this from happening ,this was just temporary ,still this went on for ten years the way my friend looked at it was it kept the lawn trimmed ,two years ago my friend told his neighbour he needed the land back to have a heliport built.

to cut a long story short his neighbour said no and said it was now his land ,it went too court and my friend lost.

something to do with the fencing,land issues where ever in the world are complex .



musin

long live the kktc

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 21:29

Juliet it is a shame you do not know me or anything about me before making your assumptions.



First off I did not buy pre 74 GC land. I inherited a property from my father. He bought a house in the country of his birth that was within 1km of the village where he grew up. He bought this property as his health was failing as he wanted to return to the country of his birth to die and be laid to rest. He bought the property he did because it was what was available at the time he needed to buy. The price and status of the deeds was not important to him. What was important to him was returning to his homeland before his health finally gave out. He made it but only just. Had he had to wait until a pre 74 TC title property had come onto the market he would not have made it. Do you have ANY idea of how much TC property was available for purchase at that time ? Of course not.



Why not return to the south? Because my father was from the north! As for 'rent free property' - what nonsense.

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 21:38

erolz



sorry for your loss, but why didnt he move into his old home in the north? in the village he grew up in ?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 21:44

Juliet msg 90



"why buy gc land when being a tc you could have had a rent free property"



What fantasy is this ?



"or come back to the south & reside in your property here"



What do you mean come back to the South ? My father came from Temblos / Zeytinlik. It was in the North pre 74 and it remains in the North now. Again you assume that my familys loss was 'property'. It was way more than property.



One example. My uncle went to work one day in 1964. He was never seen again until last year when his body was recovered from the bottom of a well and finally laid to rest. He was abducted from his place of work (Barclays Bank) in broad daylight by illegal armed thugs that were being run from the INTERIOR MINISTRY of the then all GC run RoC government, murdered and dumped in a well. The RoC has NEVER investigated his murder not then or now and never will. And you wonder why me or my father did not seek to return to the South ?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 21:54

Juliet msg 93



"sorry for your loss, but why didnt he move into his old home in the north? in the village he grew up in ?"



My father was not an only child. When his parents died the house he grew up in passed in part to him and his brother and sisters. My father had left Cyprus in 1958. He had no need of it but his brothers and sisters did have need of it and even more so after 74 when 80% of TC were displaced and had to rebuild their lives from scratch (yes 80% not 20%). He passed his part ownership to them. That is why when he sought to return to Cyprus he bought a house. He did not have long to live at that time and he bought what was available to him and for doing that 'Macha' brands him an 'immoral theiving lowlife'.



You say as a Cypriot you would only consider livihng in the north post a settlement. So what do you think of people like Macha who bought house in the North pre a settlement cause they were cheap? Care to share your view on that ?

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 22:06

yes i would consider living in the north after reunification, i just hope our land hasn`t been built on by then, i don`t begrudge anyone buying anything any where as long as it`s legal, a tc selling his or her property or land on either side is the norm. its people buying property on someone else`s land that bothers me.....

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 22:08

msge 96



you have told us you are a Brit not a cypriot

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 22:11

Juliet



You did not answer my question and you are not consistent.



Would you live in the North on your own land if it was returned but BEFORE a settlement ?



If so then why say "as a cypriot i would ONLY think of living in the north after reunification." (my emphasis)



If not then why not ?

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 22:23

erolz



How on earth would i be able to live on the north before a settlement our house is occupied by a settler from mainland turkey!!! & no i would not consider building on our land before a settlement, as a cypriot i don`t recognise the so called trnc... this island is Cyprus and only after it becomes one again would i think about moving...

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 22:24

msg 97



I am a british Cypriot as i have often stated...

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 22:28

msge 100



please show me a thread where you have stated this

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 22:31

i would msg 101, but suzanne dissapeared ages ago...

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 22:31

Juliet msg 99



"no i would not consider building on our land before a settlement, as a cypriot i don`t recognise the so called trnc... this island is Cyprus and only after it becomes one again would i think about moving... "



So once more I ask you what you think about Macha who is not a Cypriot who HAS bought a property in the TRNC because it was cheap and was unspolit there because of the events of 74 and your fmailies loss ? You have no problem with foreigners like him buying and living in the 'so called trnc' but you do not think Cypriots should ? Or is that OK as long as the said purchaser constantly slates the authorites where he CHOSE to buy because it was nice and cheap ?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 22:41

Dear Erolz re msg 82



my response to you re your lineage and possible bias was a "concession" .. YES, I *had* said that how / where you grew up could affect how you think.. Got it ? ! ;) ..



However, I *am* saying ( IMHO) that marriage to a member of an ethnic group ned not and in this case, does not make Hitchens biased..



Following your logic, if he divorced the lady - could we say he disliked GCS.. of course not.. got THAT ? ;)



"The fact is that you on occasions and 'Macha' regularly claim that because I own disputed property I am bias."



Sorry, mate, but I don't have a problem with TCs living in disputed properties - I only have a problem with them being allowed to SELL them for private gain.



THAT is a *fact* ...



"For me to even suggest that Hitchens view on Cyprus is colored by his direct personal connection to the GC community is somehow an outrageous act as far as you are concerned. "



POPPYCOCK! .. I simply don't agree that he IS biased.. again this i

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 22:44

erolz



Why would i object to Macha or anyone buying a pre 74 turkish title, its all above board & legal, & a very nice cypriot house, its nice to see someone keeping the culture of the house & renovating it back to tradition.



whoever buys a pre 74 turkish cypriot title is living proof that they want to live in cyprus amongst all cypriots, at least there doing it the legal way, as for my famliys loss thats all down to Turkey....

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 22:46

msge 102



so you assumed a new name and a new nationality at the same time

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 22:47

Dear Erolz, re msg 84



"When MM makes the point that the GC did not do with property post 74 what the TC did as an indication of how much worse the TC are compared with GC it has to be pointed out that the difference in how property on each side was treated post 74 has nothing to do with differences between GC and TC communites morals or respect for law and everything to do with the practicalites of the situation post 74. If after 74 the GC had ended up with an area of land where only 20% of it was undisputed they would have done the same as the TC community did. "



POPPYCOCK, again..



Erolz, there was SO much GC land property left over - as so many GCs had been ethnically cleansed - let's get it straight- and even many TCs continued to leave under Mr D., that Turks from the mainland had to be "imported"..



A former AG of the "TRNC" warned Mr D., of the legal / moral consequences of such actions and the ECHR tells us that the title resides with the displaced owner..



No excus

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 22:52

Juliet



"Why would i object to Macha or anyone buying a pre 74 turkish title,"



because despite his words by his actions he supports the TRNC. He bought the house IN the TRNC under TRNC laws, paid TRNC taxes, registered his owners ship in TRNC deeds office. All legal and above board I guess. You would not consider living here under TRNC rule in your own house or any other as a Cypriot but see no problem in Macha doing so. Either living in the North under TRNC rule is wrong - for Cypriots and non Cypriots alike or it is not wrong. Wrong for Cypriots but not wrong for foreigners makes no nsese to me.



What does make sense to me is your desire to not want to critisise Macha because he is such a vocal supporter of the GC 'cause'.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 22:56

Dear Erolz, re msg 84



"I do not live IN a GC property. I live in a property built after 74 that is on land that was GC pre 74."



FACT: I know these are important to you.. the land is STILL owned by a GC somewhere ( ECHR) .. "TRNC" and TR think differently.



" Land that had no property on it pre 74, was next to worthless at that time and was never lived on by anyone or used for anything except perhaps some goat grazing."



Again, not an excuse to develop it, as there were so many empty existing houses..but again, I do understand that TCs- even returning ones, ( !) have to live somewhere.. as do GCs..



The fault lies with "govt" policy.. and the ECHR have made that clear.. Not sure why you are trying to defend what is already "decided"..

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 23:00

msge 108



"What does make sense to me is your desire to not want to critisise Macha because he is such a vocal supporter of the GC 'cause'. "



you have got her motive. would be nice if she just acnowledged this

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 23:01

MM msg 104



"my response to you re your lineage and possible bias was a "concession" .. YES, I *had* said that how / where you grew up could affect how you think.. Got it ? ! ;) "





What does concession mean ? I grew up in London and Hertofrdshire ? You have said that I gained a biased view because my father was TC. You also said "I would NEVER suggest your lineage caused you to be biased". These two things are not compatible. One of them has to be untrue / incorrect. Got it ?



Being married to a member of one community need not lead to having a biased / colored view in favout of that community but in Mr Hitchens case it does.



of course you do not think he is biased just as you do not think you are biased. That does not mean you (or he) is not biased. To me plainly you both are though you considerably more so than him to be fair to him.



For the record I have never sold a disputed property.

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 23:03

sorry to dissapoint you but Macha wants want we all want & that is justice for ALL Cypriots as do quite a number of posters on here.....

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 23:09

MM msg 107



I am not defending anything MM. I do not think that what happend ot displaced GC in 74 is right. However I do recognise that the different ways that the TC and GC community treated property post 74 was to do with the fact that the proportions of disputed property in each area under thier respective controls post 74 was vastly different. THIS is the source of the different ways property was treated and not as yopu imply that the GC were moral and respect international law and the TC were imoral and had no regard for international law. The TC just did not have the options that the GC did.



A state / community can survive when 20% of its population has land they can not use and realise value from. Not easy but possible. A state / community can not survive when 80% of its population has land they can not use or realise value from.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 23:13

msge 113



"not as you imply that the GC were moral and respect international law and the TC were imoral and had no regard for international law. The TC just did not have the options that the GC did.



A state / community can survive when 20% of its population has land they can not use and realise value from. Not easy but possible. A state / community can not survive when 80% of its population has land they can not use or realise value from. "



totally agree

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 23:16

Juliet msg 112



You do not disapoint me. You confuse me. You say it is wrong for Cypriots to live in the North under TRNC adminstration but you then say there is nothing wrong in Macha buying and living in a property under TRNC adminstration. That to me is confusing.



What do you suggested would represent justice re my Uncles murder? The people who killed him were know then and are still known now? Do you think they should be prosecuted by the RoC ? Do you think my family should be compensated for the fact he was killed by an illegal armed gang run by the Interior Minister of the RoC and the RoC to date has done NOTHING about this. Not pre 74 or post. If you do think this justice should happen what are YOU doing about ensuring this happens ?

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 23:25

sorry erolz but attrocites were done by both sides, its called war....cyprus has to move forward & put the past into the history books where they belong.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 23:40

Juliet msg 116



"sorry erolz but attrocites were done by both sides, its called war....cyprus has to move forward & put the past into the history books where they belong. "



and previously



"want we all want & that is justice for ALL Cypriots"



So SOME injustices should be forgotten, because it was 'war' and Cyprus must move on and put the past into History books. But others should be rectifed. This is what you are telling me? My uncles murder is history and should be forgotten and no justice for his fmaily but GC loss of land is not History and justice for them should be forth comming ?



Sounds like what you are really saying is any injustices done before you lost some land should be forgotten but your loss of land can never be forgotten. Or have I got yopu wrong ?

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 00:07

erolz:



"If after 74 the GC had ended up with an area of land where only 20% of it was undisputed they would have done the same as the TC community did."



How do you know they would have? You are purely speculating! The fact is the GC authorities did not flog TC refugee property - and in fact made it the law to protect it.



Denktas was warned in 1974 by his own advisors that is was illegal to sell GC property. But of course after the ridiculous buffoon declared his independent "TRNC" nobody else would recognise it. So to make a fast buck he allowed the selling of GC properties.



Selling stolen property and founding a bloated and pension-crippled public sector is always easier than setting up a manufacturing base or service sector in a real country. Of course, ther worst victims of Turkey's crimes have been the Turkish Cypriots, whom the generals do not trust to run their own country.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 00:19

Erolz:



"So you have a nice cheap holiday home in MY country off the back of the suffering of Cypriots including my family and you lecture ME on morals."



A joker's attempt to twist the truth to try and justify what he has done. I bought my legal, pre-74 house from the only person allowed to sell it, i.e. its rightful Turkish Cypriot owner.



You - a born and bred British citizen - are occupying the property of a Greek Cypriot who gave you NO permission to even be there. Do you even know what happened to him? Maybe he was bayoneted to death and buried in the garden so some foreigner could pitch up years later and grab his land.



So yes - I think I actually CAN lecture you about morals and cashing in on the suffering of others.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 00:19

'Macha'



"The fact is the GC authorities did not flog TC refugee property - and in fact made it the law to protect it."



And it is a FACT that doing that is alot easier and more possible when it relates to 20% of the land under your control than 80%.



"Selling stolen property and founding a bloated and pension-crippled public sector is always easier than setting up a manufacturing base or service sector in a real country."



Once again. Post 74 the RoC, with massive external aid and 20% of its population displaced and 80% of the land under its control undisputed managed to build an economy, all be it with along with a loated and pension crippled public sector which it still has today.



You may claim that the TRNC post 74 with 80% of its population displaced and 20% of the land under its control undisputed and no foreign aid other than from Turkey could have done the same as the RoC.



Clearly nonsense but propaganda needs no sense does it ?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 01:07

Macha



"I bought my legal, pre-74 house from the only person allowed to sell it, i.e. its rightful Turkish Cypriot owner."



You bought your CHEAP house in the (according to you) illegal TRNC under (illegal) TRNC laws paying (illegal) TRNC taxes. Why would you do this if you believe that the regieme itself is illegal, unless to get yourself a cheap holiday home? You do accept it was cheaper than it would have been BECAUSE the TRNC was not internationally recognised ? Sounds like you got a pretty good deal off the suffering of Cypriots to me. I mean you did not pay the TC what the property would have been worth in united and international recognised part of Cyprus did you ? If a settlement does come will you pay this TC the increase that your property will get ? Why did he sell his property when he did ? Why did he not wait for a settlement and sell it for vastly more? Maybe he had little choice and you took advantage of this.

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 01:15

pikey msg 119 you talk so much shxt ,twisting the truth , bunch of greek tossers murdering tcs in the night , now thats big eh?????????????

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 01:18

Macha



"You - a born and bred British citizen"



I am also a Cypriot citizens according to both the RoC and the TRNC



"are occupying the property of a Greek Cypriot who gave you NO permission to even be there."



as many GC are occupying the property of TC in the South, who gave them NO permission to even be there. Yes I could in theory sell my property and the GC in theory can not but I have NOT sold this property have I ? I have not 'cahsed in'. So what exactly is the difference re my PERSONAL situation ? Why am I immoral and the GC not ?



Also unlike you I have never bought property in North Cyprus , seeking to gain personaly from the situation there. So what is immoral about that ?



Please do tell me what according to your superior morality I should do with my inhereted property ?

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 01:19

msg 118





[the ridiculous buffoon declared his independent trnc] referring to denktas.



if ever an objective,neutral ,unbiased person this is it.



erolz

there is one fundamental point some people are missing ,the turkish cypriots are not going anywhere ,never mind about the mainlanders ,the kktc is forever and the greeks or whoever can debate as much as they want .



suzanne / julliet



you know and so does most people the gc,s want all of cyprus ,so stop kidding yourself and others,you do not want us if you did we would all be together now.



musin

long live the kktc

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 01:28

Pikey Says

"Selling stolen property and founding a bloated and pension-crippled public sector is always easier than setting up a manufacturing base or service sector in a real country. Of course, ther worst victims of Turkey's crimes have been the Turkish Cypriots, whom the generals do not trust to run their own country"





And when the talks fail will he sell up (at a profit) and pi** off and let the rest get on with it.........................I guess he will ?

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 11:04

msge 121



Absolutely spot on Erolz.



Our Mr Moral macha, PP, Eric Seans bought from what he constantly describes as an illegal regime. He has bought property in an illegal regime. He has quite happily paid taxes in support of an illegal regime. He quite happily holidays in an illegal regime. He either flies into or crosses the border in to an illegal regime. He quite happily shops in what he describes as an illegal regime.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 11:19

Dear Erolz re msg 111



I don't know why you can't see "concession" means conceding a point - you were right, I was wrong .. I Had alluded to your lineage *could* make you biased..



Clearly you are an intelligent and think things through ...



SO.. if *your* background / relationships haven't made you biased.. WHY would the marriage and subsequent divorce of another intelligent man lead to the conclusion of support then ( according to your "logic" ) possible "anti" feelings, to an ethnic group ?



Naturally, it probably wouldn't - hence my point.. STILL don't see Hitchens work as biased and respectively point out again, that this is subjective...



We both agree it it is book that should be read.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 11:40

Dear Erolz re msg 113







"I am not defending anything MM." Was I suggesting you were ?!



"I do not think that what happend ot displaced GC in 74 is right. However I do recognise that the different ways that the TC and GC community treated property post 74 was to do with the fact that the proportions of disputed property in each area under thier respective controls post 74 was vastly different."



back to "poppycock" - you fav word , again..



The TCs had loads more land, property- proportionally, the vast resources of the Mesoria plain..



This is a "silly" discussion..



wiser independent folk have heard all the arguments before now and ruled in a LEGAL manner - which a former TC AG had warned.. would come back to "haunt" the "TRNC"..



Those decisions are based on concepts of how is derived.. morality and common sense.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 12:47

MM msg 127



"SO.. if *your* background / relationships haven't made you biased.. "



Where have I said that I am not biased ? Clearly my perspective on the Cyprus issue is one that comes primarily from the TC side. I do not deny this or appologise for it. I certainly try my utmost to appreciate and understand the other side of the story. What I do NOT do is present my views outside of the context of my connection to the TC community, prentending that I am merely an uninvolved and unconnected Brit. People can judge what I say in the context of that connection for I do not hide this or declare it unimportant. What 'annoys' me re Hitchens work is that he and more so others like 'Macha' DO exactly that - try and present his work outside of any context of his close and direct personal connection to the GC community and that of an 'indpendent' journalist. Anyone can make up their own mind re his bias or not but should do so in the proper context. That is my point.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 12:59

MM sg 128



"The TCs had loads more land, property- proportionally, the vast resources of the Mesoria plain.."



The TC adminstration did have more land proportionaly under their control post 74 than the GC did. What they did NOT have was more land under thier control that was UNDISPUTED. That is the relevant point when one compares the differnet ways the two adminstrations treated OWNERSHIP of land under their control post 74.



This difference does not JUSTIFY the different ways property ownership was handled post 74 but it DOES explain the source of that difference. One can not fairly UNDERSTAND the differnece in this regard without understanding the difference in the % of land in each area that was undisputed.



When you highlight the difference in how ownership of disputed land in each area was treated post 74 OUTSIDE of the context of the differences in % of undisputed land in each area you hinder understanding imo not help it and in a pro GC way. That is my point.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 15:58

msge 128



"wiser independent folk have heard all the arguments before now and ruled in a LEGAL manner"



Hi MM



I understand the importance of law but I have some issues with it, particularly in it's over reliance.



The law seeks to find a right or wrong answer, or more pertinantly an innocent or guilty party. It's a process that works well in issues of detailed complexity, black and white issues, however the Cyprus is an issue of dynamic complexity not detailed complexity. The Cyprus issue is one that is highly evolved, complex and emergent in nature. There are multiple issues, variagated parties and mulitifarious needs.



The Cyprus issue cannot be solved through a process that uses detailed complexity, you have to use a a more dynamic process like negotiation. It's not perfect but it's the best we have for dealing with so many multifaceted variables.



The ROC has an advantage in matters related to the law. There is little parity. Of course the potentail ruling

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 15:59

ruling against the Orams has focused the negotiations, but more importantly it has created mistrust, and trust is the vital element in creating a lasting settlement.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 13:49

re msg 129 , Erolz



you'll note I used the word *if* in the statement - "SO.. if *your* background / relationships haven't made you biased.. "



I KNOW you *are* biased - and you are correct, not need to "apologise for it..I also know that you genuinely try to see things from both perspectives.. but your viewpoint on Hitchens, and reasoning behind your conclusions are *still*highly subjective - it is not biased on facts.





Sorry, if that "annoys" you..



Macha, is more involved with TCs as he lives there - and deals with "TRNC" so you reasoning re his position isn't even rational.



I see his style as more "abrasive", directly tongue in cheek.. but that's easily explainable as those who respond normally - know they aren't as knowledgeable.



So, I know you'll agree that those who think differently - or who *are* biased t'other way, won't be feeling the need to feel apologetic - or be pilloried here, either... ;) ?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 17:08

re 131, ILC



up until the Yes vote of TCs to Annan in apr 2004, I would say that the TCs had "allowed" themselves to be put into a situation by their "leaders" that meant the "rump" RoC could beat them with a legal "stick" - esp. the declaration of "independence"..



The ECHR has since ruled in cases and made it clear that the Annan result did not change the fact that the plantiff ( a GC with a place in Varosha - Maras) ) was being prevented form using their property.



Turkey offered compo for the place , but the GC refused, saying it wasn't asked for - they only wanted the right to use the house as it was theirs..



Parity is very much in the hands of Turkey ..

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 18:35

Msg 133 Since when did Pikey live in TRNC ?

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 20:29

msge 138



"Macha, is more involved with TCs as he lives there"



Does he, as Turtle says?



Where does Erolz live? Is Macha Cypriot or is Erkan Cypriot?

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 20:40

erolz:



"You bought your CHEAP house in the (according to you) illegal TRNC under (illegal) TRNC laws paying (illegal) TRNC taxes. Why would you do this if you believe that the regieme itself is illegal, unless to get yourself a cheap holiday home?"



I've no problem handing over some cash in local taxes provided it's used to help the ordinary Turkish Cypriots. Seeing as the Turkish taxpayer pays for all TRNC infrastructure and bears the cost of the occupation, I feel I'm doing my bit to show solidarity with the TCs (real ones, mind).



"If a settlement does come will you pay this TC the increase that your property will get ? Why did he sell his property when he did ? Why did he not wait for a settlement and sell it for vastly more? Maybe he had little choice and you took advantage of this."



The TC owner I bought my property from was a wealthy architect in Istanbul who was left the house by his father. Money was no object to him. So your assumptions are wholly wrong.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 20:42

rowlo: "pikey msg 119 you talk so much shxt ,twisting the truth , bunch of greek tossers murdering tcs in the night , now thats big eh?????????????"



How's the old head this morning? Better than your grasp of Cypriot history and politics, I hope.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 20:45

turtle: "And when the talks fail will he sell up (at a profit) and pi** off and let the rest get on with it.........................I guess he will ?"



I could always get some NGO money and set up a charity to help destitute and alcoholic expats facing an unhappy future. ;)

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 21:04

msg139



creased up laughing with this post... i work voluntarily with an NGO charity just shout if you need help

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 21:16

Not only showing contemp for TC,s and Turks you now label ex-pats as whino,s............ what a strange and misguided world you really do live in.



And as for suzzane creasing up then this just proves what a small minded bigot she really is

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 21:29

macha ,juliet its because of small minded people like you that a settlement is not going to happen in our lifetime , but hey im happy , ive nothing to lose , how about you ?

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
23/02/2009 00:16

small minded she well may be. The other half of the double act is out of his mind. I roll over laughing everytime I see the name macha.....the lads name for a turd......must admit he does his best to make us laugh.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
23/02/2009 00:51

Macha 137



"I've no problem handing over some cash in local taxes provided it's used to help the ordinary Turkish Cypriots."



So you taxes you happily pay do not get spent on Turkish mainlanders living in the North ? How do you manage that then ? Every lira in revenue you pay to the (according to you) illegal and immoral TRNC government is a lira less Turkey has to pay to support the TRNC.



" feel I'm doing my bit to show solidarity with the TCs"



These are the same TC that you have previously claimed prefered to live off and from stolen property than building a real economy for themselves and that you claim to not care about their children's welfare.



You are happy to support the TRNC as far as doing so benefits yourself with a cheap holiday home whilst at the same time you constantly slate both the TRNC and the TC community.

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
23/02/2009 13:06

Could not have put it better myself. Nice one Erolz.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
23/02/2009 14:31

re msg 135/136

Turtle / ILC



Don't you think it is a bit "off" to expect someone to reveal such things

?! - especially as most members hide their id, including Turtle :0

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
23/02/2009 14:53

Mark as usual I have not got the foggiest what your on about ?

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
23/02/2009 18:27

tiggy:



" I roll over laughing everytime I see the name macha.....the lads name for a turd......must admit he does his best to make us laugh."



tiggy, tiggy, tiggy - if you knew more about your ancestral homeland you'd know Macha was a legendary Irish goddess. A bt like the one I married and honoured with the nickname.



After all, women tend to respect men more when they don't describe themselves as "virgin convertors". And don't pretend to be young Greek Cypriot men with login names like - for example - Kapparis Kid.



http://www.shee-eire.com/Magic&Mythology/Gods&Goddess/Celtic/Goddess/Macha/Factsheet1.htm





I liked this bit:



Macha is part of a tradition of a deity who appears over spans of time in differing guises to live among mortals and help them in whatever way she can unless they offend her and then she can wreak a terrible revenge in the form of a powerful curse.

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
23/02/2009 19:56

Never mind about the fictional lady.....just thinking of you as a turd keeps me smiling.



Kapparis kids was a bit of fun and not offensive in any way unlike your disgusting treatment of people on this forum. Whatever I describe myself as has certainly gotten up that little nose of yours as you can not stop mentioning it. I changed that description months ago. Not one female took offence or even mentioned it!! They unlike you could see it as a joke! Only you have a problem.......must be your effeminate side coming out or the wrong time of the month for you.



At least I do not hide behind a lying member’s info. And if I were to be removed from this board I would not return....unlike you a big hint is not enough....what ever happened to make you the bitter and twisted little man called "Max" that you are.



Back to looking at your side splitting name again for me.......



Slaince

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
23/02/2009 20:03

Tiggy: "Back to looking at your side splitting name again for me.......



Slaince"





Or maybe slainte... ;)

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
23/02/2009 20:09

Whatever Max.......bit old now for teacher to be correcting my mistakes.......



out gunned ya again!



LOL.



XXXXX

Steve1953



Joined: 04/12/2008
Posts: 298

Message Posted:
23/02/2009 20:52

Mess 148 Macha - from your attachment ,are we led to believe as a true Celt you paint yourself blue and hop round naked at Stonehenge on winter and summer solstices - if so,it might well be wise to do these traditions in Cyprus.



Any other things you are keeping quiet about - dont forget the leprecauns and fairies in Ireland?

Come on msacha,spit it out???

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
23/02/2009 21:11

Mark, as some board members have been subjected to personal abuse via thier email address *I* choose to hide mine and only give it to people I trust and like................................* you fit niether of these*

Yvonne



Joined: 16/05/2008
Posts: 273

Message Posted:
12/03/2009 22:51

So, after all that time, finaly 'A Question of Some Heat' & 'The Genocide Files' arrived from Amazon.

And I started to read 'The Genocide Files' - but concluded after reading the cover, that I had most certainly ordered the wrong book! Yes - Anyway, I ordered 'The Genocide Files' by N.Xavier Arnold. Fiction. So nothing to do with NC, but I've got to say, it's an excellent read for anyone who likes suspense.

When I looked again on Amazon, they've priced the book I actually wanted at 50 quid - minimum. Does anyone know where I can get this cheaper (I'm based in Dublin)?

Thanks Y

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
12/03/2009 23:00

hi yvonne how the devil are you. i have a copy here i will keep for you. Thats awfully expensive. Happy St Paddys day in advance speak soon xxxxxx

Yvonne



Joined: 16/05/2008
Posts: 273

Message Posted:
12/03/2009 23:08

Txs Lilly! I know - v expensive.

I'm good but working my ass off (not literally (for the cynics among you!), of course ;)

See that your lunch was a great success! Hopefully I'll beable to join in the fun when I'm out there later this year.

batterboy58



Joined: 20/04/2008
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
12/03/2009 23:36

Hi Yvonne



I bought "The Genocide Files" a couple of months ago, but can't for the life of me find the site I bought from, or the email invoice.



Anyway after searching, I have found that Waterstones have it for order for £16 with free delivery in 7 - 10 days.



http://www.waterstones.com/waterstonesweb/displayProductDetails.do?sku=3903010&auid=1005



Hope this helps

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
13/03/2009 00:09

Yvonne when you are in Cyprus and if you want drop me a line and you are more than welcome to brorrow any of the books I have on the Cyprus problem here.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
13/03/2009 18:33

£16 for Genocide Files? The money would be better spend on Red Noses which, joking apart, too many members here appear to have.

batterboy58



Joined: 20/04/2008
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
13/03/2009 18:41

Better a red nose than a long one Macha

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
13/03/2009 18:46

red nose , red face , what next , red flag lol

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
13/03/2009 20:27

to many red flags around on this island rowlo...

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
14/03/2009 00:02

Pity they did not cover all the Island.oty

Yvonne



Joined: 16/05/2008
Posts: 273

Message Posted:
16/03/2009 22:26

Thanks Batterboy 58 and Erolz - will check out Waterstones.



Y