Israeli Tennis star refused Visa to play in WTA event in Dubai !

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 13:25

Should one of the top 10 players be excluded because of where she holds a citizenship..?



http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/tennis/7891164.stm





(I changed the title to make it say what mm wanted it to and correct his typo)



Harold2555

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 13:29

Now what do you think I would say to that YES...they should be kept in Israel and not allowed outside...JOKE, well hmmmm...............................................

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 13:46

The WTA should pull every player out of the tournament in protest...

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 14:20

No they shouldn't, they wouldnt for any other nation so why for the Jews! what makes them special?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 14:55

Seems the WTA are NOT best pleased :



February 15, 2009





Statement from Larry Scott Re: Peer Visa Denial



Statement from Larry Scott, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of the Sony Ericsson WTA Tour, regarding the United Arab Emirates' decision to deny a Visa to Israeli Tour Professional Shahar Peer to play in the Barclays Dubai Tennis Championships.



We are deeply disappointed by the decision of the United Arab Emirates (UAE) denying Shahar Peer a Visa that would permit her to enter the country to play in the Dubai Tennis Championships. Ms. Peer has earned the right to play in the tournament and it is regrettable that the UAE is denying her this right.



Following various consultations, the Tour has decided to allow the tournament to continue to be played this week, pending further review by the Tour's Board of Directors. ......



For more:



http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/3/newsroom/stories/?ContentID=2989

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 15:02

6xm: This is the headline of your posting: "Israeli Tennis star refuses Visa to play in WTA event in Dubai !"



Very confusing. Shouldn't it read "is refused"?!

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 15:27

YES.. ! Pardon, Dank u ;(

pinkchilli


Joined: 30/11/2008
Posts: 689

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 16:57

Dee



I accept that you are fully entitled to your opinion.



Could you please try and understand that Israel is a State, not a race.



Judaism, being Jewish is a race.



Israelis, could be Arabs, and Jews can live in the TRNC.



I accept Jews form a massive majority in Israel, but please try and keep Israel and Jews seperate in your postings.



Dee, what do you think of Jews in general, not the Jews in Isreal, but say the Jews in the UK, France, ROC, Ethiopia?



This comment is NOT meant to antagonise you, or criticise you. If you feel it has, please accept my apologies.

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 18:17

Pink chilli ..She only considers Jews to be those who attack Gaza i.e.Israel,probably has not even considered your statement and why you should have to put an apology for your own question is beyond me. She believes in every body having there say without reservation so why shouldnt you.I doubt very much if she give you the same sort of Courtesy..

phylray



Joined: 21/09/2007
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 19:38

While working in U.A.E. a friend wanted to see Israel before returning

to N.Zealand & I went with her. We had to go to Egypt first, as they would

not have let us re-enter U.A.E after visiting Israel & we had not to let them

stamp our passports, just a piece of paper! Very interesting trip.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 19:43

Excuse me coachie but I am more than capable of answering a question put to ME by myself..you are not my mouthpiece so butt out..

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 19:49

Dee







I accept that you are fully entitled to your opinion.







Could you please try and understand that Israel is a State, not a race.







Judaism, being Jewish is a race.







Israelis, could be Arabs, and Jews can live in the TRNC.







I accept Jews form a massive majority in Israel, but please try and keep Israel and Jews seperate in your postings.







Dee, what do you think of Jews in general, not the Jews in Isreal, but say the Jews in the UK, France, ROC, Ethiopia?







This comment is NOT meant to antagonise you, or criticise you. If you feel it has, please accept my apologies.



Pinkchilli, Yes Israel is a state one which was formed for the Jewish race.



Jews in general I dont have a real problem with, even some of their highest scholars condemn the actions of those who live in Israel..what I cannot abide is how the jews retaliate, it angers me greatly that they have no regard for life unless it is one of their own, they flattened the Lebanon and now th

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 19:55

they are creating their own holocaust against the Palestinians..I have to say I am sick to death of listening to them groaning on and on about how they were treated yet are happy to meter out the same treatment to the Palestinians.



They were not the only persecuted race or religion ...the armenians were virtually wiped out but do they bleat on and on ...NO...yes the jews were victims of Hitler and what happened to them was evil but why do they now want revenge against the Palestinians..they are creating their own problems now...they dont try to get on with the Palestinians, they are out to slaughter everyone of them.



We the British gave the jews Israel, Balfour has a lot to answer for..we created this situation and we should do all we can to provide the Palestinians with their own state as we have the jews...ask yourself why we don't do more!



No need for you to apologise, if someone is civil to me I am always civil in return.

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 20:10

Do not know why I keep siding with Dee recently, suppose somebody has to. LOLOL



You summed up my view of the Israeli state, they bleat on about the holocaust etc and think the world owes them an existence. I supported their actions in 1967 and 1974 but since then they really do think they are Gods children.



That point over. I believe that politics has no place in sport and the deliberating banning of one athlete because of where they come from is totally wrong.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 20:12

CIS, ppl will talk lol, I do agree that politics should not enter sport, my early post msg 2 was a bit tongue in cheek...

CJtill


Joined: 02/05/2008
Posts: 836

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 21:18

Ignore the politics of this for a minute. This goes against WTA rules and the players should all withdraw from the tourny as the governing body dont have the bottle to cancel the show.

Say no to racism in sport.

pinkchilli


Joined: 30/11/2008
Posts: 689

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 21:23

Dee, thanks for your response.



Could you suggest your solution for Israel and the Jews.



I appreciate this has nothing to do with sport, but this debate could be "hidden" within this topic!



If it was a new topic, I'm confident it would be closed down within hours.

scoobydoo


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 2434

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 21:31

I think it is such a shame that sport and politics seemed to be mixed up in this situation. So often sport, music or cultural events are very often a way of breaking down the barriers and many people go to great pains to ensure that they are considered as seperate issues. My friend is a TC and runs a music school here in the TRNC and whilst also being an internationally recognised musician in his own right he always tries to get the children of his school to events that otherwise would not be allowed by promoting the fact that cultural and sport events are a way forward to bridging the gaps between different religions and beliefs. I remember being so proud of him when he got a muslim childrens choir from and unrecognised country ie TRNC in front of the pope at the vatican to perform. He has achieved other milestones and will continue to do so whilst at the same time fighting these 'barriers' put in front of him.



I feel sad that Dubai has taken this stance.

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 22:01

didnt the post show up mmmmmmmmmm for what he really is? nice one dc msg 6

Happy Hussar


Joined: 01/10/2008
Posts: 318

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 22:16

Does mmmmmmm stand for mmmasturbater?

scoobydoo


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 2434

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 22:26

do you have to lower the tone happy hussar?

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 08:39

lol HH that has lowered the tone and it is very naughty but very funny..

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 08:39

pinkchilli I have to go to hairdressers but I will reply when I return this afternoon.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 09:07

Obviously Dee got "lost" )



re msg 19 "didnt the post show up mmmmmmmmmm for what he really is? nice one dc msg 6"



and that would be?...



re HH, msg 20

"Does mmmmmmm stand for mmmasturbater?"



re Dee, msg 22

"lol HH that has lowered the tone and it is very naughty but very funny.. "



Thanks for the "stimulating" (!) contributions to this turbate.. we should make it a sticky.. :P

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 14:34

DC4.your response was exactly what I expected,so one sided I some times think you wear blinkers.I have not heard the Israeli,s bleat about the Holocaust for ages,but to listen to youthey are on about it every day.I am not Jewish or any other religion,but I do believe in a recognised state having the right to defend itself against all comers large or small.If the punishment metered out to these cowards who hide behind wom en and children seems a bit ott. that is rather unfortunate for them.Hamas rockets or Israeli rockets have difficulty in seperating civilians from terrorists,and until they get rid of Hamas there will be no peace and more people will get killed.Try accepting the fact that Israel is there and has no intention of going away.I know it will be difficult for you to accept that fact,but being the champion of the under dog in all cases I think I am really expecting to much.I wonder if the shoe was on the other foot would you be up in arms against the Palastinians actions

Fred8


Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 22:36

As there is no diplomatic relations between Israel and the arab country in question a visa could not be technically granted to an Israeli citizen. On the other hand if refusing the visa as a boycotting process on Israeli to put pressure to bring change in the occupation - well that is a political point and everybody has a right to their opinion.

Ref Msg 25 and as my previous posting, the writer forgets that the Palestinians are under ocupation for decades and have the right to resist that occupation. As to the comment that "Try accepting the fact that Israel is there and has no intention of going away" I can only say please look up the history books albiet contemporary books -before determining and ignoring so outrageously the Palestinians right to be there.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 08:10

Pinkchilli..sorry it took me so long to respond.



The only solution that would work is for israel to remove the blockades and allow free flowing aid through to the Palestinians, they blockade all vital supplies, the Palestinians have had the jews forced upon them by the Brits and their lives are determined by them, they actively run Palestine...Israel should actively encourage a free state for the Palestinians instead of using their might to prevent it. The state of israel will not be satified until every Palestinian is dead and they can take the whole region. Of course Israel is going to remain ensconsed in Palestinian land so there has to be a two state solution..

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 08:17

Coachie if you knew what I was going to say why did you bother to read it and make you onesided reply..I think it would do you the world of good to take off your blinkers and read up on the situation. Maybe difficult for you as you will clearly have trouble accepting the truth. I think you should also try accepting the fact that the Palestinians will always be there...Hamas is the democratically elected government of the Palestinian ppl, a fact you seem to ignore.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 08:17

Fred8...well said.

frontalman



Joined: 28/02/2008
Posts: 499

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 08:58

Although sports and politics don't mix, if you'd had your wife and children splattered all over the road by an Israeli bomb fired indiscriminately, you might feel differently!

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 16:30

to DC4/Fred8...I do not ignore the fact that the Palastinians have right to be there,but Israel was created by the UN and accepted asa state.The Jews have lived there since the days of Moses soI think they have as much claim to the land as the Palastinians.Hamas was elected by the people but under a threat of retribution against the population.Hamas did not like thePLA negotiating with Israel on a peace deal because it is against there beliefs to recognise Israel.Well if Hamas want to carry on there campaign then unfortunately more people will die.You really do believe the fact that Israel is out to exterminate all the Palastinians which is the biggest load of C...I have heard in years.What about the Palastinians outside of Gaza.? They are not firing rockets at Israel,so there is no reply from Israel.Does that not mean anything to you!!I agree a two state solution is what the PLA and Israel want but not HAMAS. Frontalman, more wives and children will die before hamas sees the light...

pinkchilli


Joined: 30/11/2008
Posts: 689

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 16:44

Dee



Thanks for your response.



By removing the blockades, do you not think that there could be the possibility of more suicide bombings/more rockets launched into nearby settlements?



Hamas has declared that state of Israel has no right to exist.



Unless Hamas accepts the right of Israel to exist, what choice has Israel got?



Israel has not stated their desire to wipe every Palestinian off the face off the earth, however Hamas has!



I do agree that there should be a two-state solution. Israel should also stop building the settlements.



Personally, I believe in an "eye for an eye". If a rocket is launched into Israel, Israel should be allowed to retaliate with a similar weapon - If Israel, however, has the ability to "hit" their target.... so be it.



I think the international community would accept the above; however they do not accept the retaliation using the force used recently.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 19:40

RE Dee : (...) The state of israel will not be satified until every Palestinian is dead and they can take the whole region. (...)



and Dee again : (...) Hamas is the democratically elected government of the Palestinian ppl (...)



Well, Dee, in the past years I didn't have to wonder who works hardest on the termination of the Palestinian people - your terrorist friends of Hamas are without any doubt the winners...

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 20:09

Coachie you really are an ignorant man and as such I have no further desire to enter into debate with you, when you have educated yourself sufficiently then I may reconsider...kindly do not post to me or regarding me...thankyou.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 20:18

Pinkchilli I too believe in an eye for an eye but Israel are not retaliating in that fashion...Hamas sends a rocket which may hit something and cause a bit of damage, Israel respond with ariel attacks and rockets and blast the Palestinians into orbit, killing hundreds of innocent women and children...that is not an eye for an eye.



Israel doesnt need to state they wish to remove all Palestinians, the proof is out there that that is what they are aiming for...Mark Regev the Israeli spokesman is a liar and has lied many times on sky tv.



Israel has the ability to hit all targets because they just drop bombs wherever they wish...they have no need to target...Also removing the barriers will not create more rockets..the rockets are fired over the barriers, yes it may create more suicide bombers, Israel kill indiscriminately as well.



During the 3 weeks of war ...6 Israeli's died, almost 1000 Palestinians including hundreds of innocent children...how is that an eye for an eye.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 20:19

DC then explain to me why the ppl of Palestine voted Hamas in!!!!

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 20:27

RE msg 36, Dee : (...) DC then explain to me why the ppl of Palestine voted Hamas in!!!! (...)



You'd better ask that their "brother-Palestinians" from Al Fatah in Gaza. However, most of them can't answer you, because they were shot. Some can still answer, because they were only shot in their knees. So much for your terrorist friends from Hamas, who by the way are terrorists outside Gaza and terrorists and thiefs inside Gaza.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 20:35

DC whether you like it or not the Palestinians voted them in...maybe you dont like that ..but it was their choice..



DC do you personally know or talk to the ppl of Gaza because you seem to think you are well acquainted with what you think goes on there...

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 20:48

RE msg 38, Dee : (...) DC whether you like it or not the Palestinians voted them in...maybe you dont like that ..but it was their choice.. (...)



===> Indeed, the majority's choice, Hamas was "democratically" elected (after eliminating the other Palestinian power there, Al Fatah, I seem to remember). So the voters shouldn't complain - they got what they voted for.



Dee : (...) DC do you personally know or talk to the ppl of Gaza because you seem to think you are well acquainted with what you think goes on there... (...)



===> Yes, Dee, for private or journalistic reasons I visited Israel, including the West Bank, several times in the past 30 years. And no, I was not allowed entrance to Gaza.



PS. Did you prefer not to read how your Hamas friends "confiscated" (civilized people call it "stole") blankets and other humanitarian aid for the "innocent" Palestinians from the Red Cross, a couple of days ago? And... how did this aid get into Hamastan, when Israel keeps the borders clos

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 20:50

closed for all aid, as you like to state?

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 22:41

Seems it doesnt take much to be banned



"British author Geraldine Bedell has been banned from a book festival in Dubai because one of the characters in her new book is gay."

Fred8


Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 00:09

The original theme of the thread has been lost along the way but unfortunately this is not surprising and is almost enevitable when it comes to the middle east. But the banning of the Israeli player, in the circumstances , would normally pass without making it to the headline except of course the Israeli propaganda machine has once again succeeded to highlight and give it an angle to draw sympathy from the 'guilt ridden conscious of europe'. If there are no diplomatic relations between Dubia and Israel than surely the latter has live witht he consequences of its policies. This issue, and for example the issue of the Roman Catholic Bishop and the subsequent 'hounding' of the pope by the Jewish media, is attempts to recupurate the losses on the diplomatic front suffered by Israeli. I am just wandering, if the white south africans had a similar history to the Jews in the 20th Century would they be still not in power?



The US bans official and even non official Iranian sport personali

Fred8


Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 00:21

..personalities but do hear about this? or let alone such an outcry? (incidently, Iran and US do not enjoy diplomatic relations)



In respect of coachie's comment about the founding of the Jewish state and the UN, he gets his N.... in a twist again. limited knowledge, even in history can be disconcerting if down outright dangerous ... please go back to the 1948 UN Resolution and the territories internationally agreed then and what iSRAEL OCCUPIES NOW. And on the question of moses and 'greater Israel' I would like to pose Coachie a simple question: why does Israel not (including right wing governments) cede Jeruslam (of all the places) and declare it their capital?



Finally, on the Gaza concentration camp, althougH I do not believe it, but the recent indiscriminate and disproprortionate assualt appeared for all intent and purposes as a punishment on the Palestinians for electing Hamas - of course after being hearded and sanctioned had ledto total failure

scoobydoo


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 2434

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 07:10

Going back to the title of this thread - 'Israeli Tennis star refuses Visa to play in WTA event in Dubai !' This debate could start again because next week the ATP Mens tournament takes place in Dubai. I wonder if players will get banned from this or the ATP and WTA and the comments of all future tournaments will be withdrawn from Dubai?

pinkchilli


Joined: 30/11/2008
Posts: 689

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 09:07

Jews travel to Dubai on holiday. Or is this problem only against Israeli's.



At least Dubai can tell the difference between an Israeli and a Jew.



Would Dubai allow a French tennis player to compete if he was a Jew? I believe they would.



Now.... would they allow an Israeli Palestinian to play?



As for propaganda, will Jews continue to holiday and invest in Dubai?



What happens when famous sportsmen (and women) and others in the media, who have bought in Dubai (I believe half the England football team has properties in "The World") becomes pressurised by their paymasters/sponsers?



Would Abramovich, Tottenham Hotspur plc, etc keep quiet?



Back on topic Sir...



Don't forget the Golf in Dubai, or the Grand Prix in Bahrain (Mr Ecclestone is a member of "The Tribe")!

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 14:36

Well,well,now who is insulting another person.Uneducated amI,I suppose that statement comes from one with degees in history,geography,etc.or is it from the mouth of a self appointed leader of the under dogs of this world,ie Palastinians ,al quieda,taliban,eta,or any other organisation that try to rule by fear.You may say that I am not educated but I am not blinkered bigot.I can see both sides of any argument but you can only see one side,the side who happens to be getting there butts kicked.You still did not answer my question as to what your reaction would be if it was Israel who was getting bombed by Hamas and all the other terror organisations in the area.No doubt youwould be jumping up and down with glee.People like you with this superior than thou attitude make me want to throw up.If you want to shout your mouth off go and shout at Hamas,and tell them to leave Gaza,and let the Palastinian people rebuild their lives.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 15:51

Coachie this is my last post to you as I feel you are typing on behalf of someone else, I think we both know who that is!!!



I really do think you lack the basics educationally as your grammar and spelling would suggest, and yes we all make spelling mistakes from time to time and miss out the odd punctuation mark, however it seems to be a regular pattern in your postings.



Israel do get bombed by Hamas albeit with rockets so I don't understand your question which is probably why I didn't answer!!



Incidentally you are a blinkered bigot...you suffer tunnel vision in the favour of Israel.

Fred8


Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 19:38

It is difficult to argue with facts. All sort of opinions can be proffered but facts can only be twisted and hstory rewritten to suit one's argument surely which can leads one to conclude limited lnowledge of issues or at the least, as dee highlights above, one is working for somebody else's agenda. And for good measures it is very convenient to add, to the agenda, 'to let the Palestinian live along' or words to that effect when in reality for the past decades the Palestinians have not been allowd to even struggle for survival by the Israeli state and its supporters. Far from it, although I do not believe in violence even by the Palestinian but ...



Once again, it should be pointed out that the player has NOT been banned as stated in some of the comments above. But rather refused a visa - this a big difference. Visa from anIsrali citizen can not be entertained fo rthis reason. As wisely said above a jew, but a non-Israeli citizen, can have no fear of visiting or investing in Dubia

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 19:45

Fred your input is invaluable though I doubt your voice will be heard..

Fred8


Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 20:14

Many thanks Dee but for how long will the screams of the children, women, the old, in Palestine etc will go unheard? The Hamas', Islamic Jihad are the least who really get 'punished' in Israeli excerise of brutality such as the last one over gaza. But, sadly, Israel knows this but goes ahead and punishes the ordinary people. However, the vioces must have hope. had never thought, when experiencing the demostrations on the streets of London a few decades ago, that Aparthied would come to an end. But it did.



One of The problem in the current issue is that people, like Coachi for example, keep on buying what Israeli protagonists perpetuate in the media and then go on to BLINDLY repeat it or do so with blinkers!



How the allies- particularly Churchill- encouraged and supported with material the resistanvce forces against Hitler or the Mujaheedin against the Russians? Intetrnational law permits the Palestineans to resist occupation- occupation that has been condemned by SCORES of UN R

Fred8


Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 20:16

..Resolution. BUT the poor Palestinians are not even allowed to resist an illigal occupation!!!!!

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 20:21

The Palestinians are oppressed and suppressed and until their voice is heard with true clarity this will not change...The Isaeli propoganda machine is mighty and backed by USA and the British Isles, this has to change .... I was a member of Anti Apartheid years ago and as you say change was brought about...Mandela was called a terrorist...now he is feted worldwide...Coachie and others like him will bury their head in the sand and refuse to listen to the truth.

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 22:40

DC4/FRED8.Firstly.I am not typing on behalf of any one.You obviosly think I am led by Israeli statements on TV and in the press.WRONG.I believe in any state having the right to defend its borders against aggressors of any nationality.If Ireland started lobbing rockets at England I would expect my country to start throwing them back.My question to you was quite simple really.If it was Israel who was at the wrong end of the bombing,would you be condeming the Palastinians.Secondly.You question my spelling and punctuation in my posts but I noticed there was NO comments on your allies (FRED8) spelling and punctuation.Double standards or maybe that blinkered vision again.

As for you No8 read the first half of this post again,the bit about Israeli news reports. Israel is a rcognised state by the UN and most of the world whether you two like it or not. I do not bury my head in the sand and deny the truth,I was as much against aparheid as you two,Iwas refused permission to work therein 1965

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 22:52

because I did not agree with there policies.To me that is not the same as the Palastinian problem.That was a racial problem,they were not being denied the right to exist,which is what Hamas are trying to do against the Israeli,s. Israel is not denying the Palastinians the right to exist otherwise the Palastinians outside of Gaza would be sent back to Gaza and face the same treatment as there brothers.I repeat again I am not a mouth piece for Israel or any one else,But I do believe in any country defending themselves against aggressors,large or small,with what ever means they deem necessary..

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 08:30

Coachie you really are blinkered, it is the Palestinians who are not being allowed the right to exist, they don't even have their own state or territory.



Ireland did bomb England but we didnt blow them to bits..sigh...and now there is relative peace there..

Fred8


Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 19:51

coachie a few points of clarifications: 1. If the UK for some bizzare reasons felt it necessary to occupy Ireland militarily and since we now from human nature how people react to occupation especially brutal one than history tells us the Irish would react and perhaps even more sharply than the Palestinians. On the other hand even at the hight of the Troubles when the Provos used Ireland as a safe heaven, HM government did not send in the Drones or the SAS or rockets into Ireland despite the IRA having extracted heavy losses on British lives. When HMG went on an adventure by authorising the SAS to shoot the 3 IRA chaps in Gibralter, the matter was taken before up in the domestic courts and an international tribunal. The Uk participated in the legal enquiries because it is a moral and civilised countries. Israel has been bombing non combattants, destoying villages and towns, killing at will civilians as Palestinian Politician and because of its (USA) brute military power is never ....

Fred8


Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 20:04

brought to account or will allow it self to be party to any international (or UN) enquiries.



2. Allow me also to bring into the equation another aspect of Israeli so called democracy since the issue of aparthied has arisen. The arab popution of Israel proper, as apposed to occupied territories, is appr 20%: but are you aware the treatedment of this population? Well it is no better than the occupies territories and smacks of aparthied. The Arabs of Israel are no 2nd Class citizens but are treated as 3/4th class (incidently I do not say this; this is the view of liberal Israeli's)

3. You refer to UN resolution for bringing the Israeli state into existence. What about the SCORES of UN resolutions ( SCORES of vetoed ones) that Israeli is refusing to implement and resisting with the help of idiotic Americans who are hostages to the Jewish lobbyists in total contradiction to US national interests. This is were I say, with all due respect, that you are wearing high tech Israeli blinkers!

Fred8


Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 20:21

Finally, i will refuse to give the argument up with you since you pointed out your 'role' in aparthied: I believe the cause is not lost yet because of this piece of information. You may yet be convinced! And again it is not in the British character to see unfair play. Who could have thought a few years back t people through out the world openly talk about 'final solution', 'Gaza concentration camp' etc in the context of the Israeli - Palestinian conflict. This is progress and loss for the Israeli propagands war because what happen in gaza over a period of three weeks will no doubt occur again (unfortunately) as along as a viable Palestinian state does not come into existence but with every brutal, but sad, Israeli assualt the Palestinians may yet come out of the concentration camps as more and more people come round to the cause of the Palestinians. Just for your info, since the last gaza conflict - matter of days ago - more and more british and european MPs are meeting Hamas officia

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 20:25

Fred8 take a bow my friend for the second time, you put me to shame with your knowledge, so others must be feeling quite humble.

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 20:29

fred8 you gotta get out more mate, palastineis the breeding ground of international terrorism

Fred8


Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 20:50

Rowlo - imagine yourself: you are daily beaten; you have no rights -political, social or legal. Or the things done to you you can not rectify through normal mechanisms that we take for granted. Say You have trespass on your property - you can take in the English or scottish justice system action to remedy the injustice done to you. But suppose you cannot; your next door neighbours beat you daily; police or the courts will not take any action. Your other neighbours will also not help you. What do you do -remember you are a human spirit. The only option you have is to take things into your own hand. When you do that braveheart, you are called a terrorist - in most cases when you do get your rights back you become a respectable freedom fighter ( Begin of Israel, Mandela, Makarios, etc Remember Ronnie Reagan saying at the steps of the whitehouse, and pointing to several fiercly looking burly bearded Afghans as equivelent of the American forefathers? now same afghans are also terrorist!!

Fred8


Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 20:52

Rowla.as to getting out- I am out -internationally- for almost half of the years. There are no problems on that front! But thanks for thinking about my welfare!

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 00:41

Hi Fred8 re msg 56



Agree with much that you say re Israel losing a HELL of a lot of moral high ground.. I( understood they were "peed off" by the rockets, but as with Ireland- they are just creating far more future enemies .. )



I remember "internment" ( without trial kicking off in N.I. as a youth and thinking "what a good idea" .. it merely alienated moderates .



Lastly, one of the "chaps" in Gib was a "chapess" - I met her brother in a bar in Dublin in '91 .

Fred8


Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 11:03

Internment and the Diplock courts - are good points of reference where 'undemocratic' methods to confront political violence do not ramain for long in place where in an open society viewing it as going against the grain of human decency. These were a 'mild' form (relativly speaking - although those at the recieving end might have considered it not mild at all) of undemocratic tools against the IRA. I say relatively speaking because i have in mind the Israeli comparision which has had harsher methods in place for decades in place yet its 'democracy' will not allow it to dispense with it. I wander how many are aware that tomato paste, lentil and macaroni are not permited to cross into Gaza accross the Israeli borders; can somebody explain to me how these items can used in the pursuit of 'terrorism'?(source :BBC World Service, 29th Feb 2009).

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 11:07

Update: Dubai Championships fined a record $300,000 (£207,000) after Israel's Shahar Peer was barred from competing in the event.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/tennis/7902965.stm

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 14:31

Should have cancelled the tournament ....

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 14:48

fred8..Well written but it still does not change my mind that any state who is attacked by sources outside its borders has the right to retaliate against those sources with what ever means it decides. this point I have stated in all my answers to you and your "partner"DC4.I am sorry that innocent women and children are being killed but if the cowards who are hiding among there own people when they fire these rockets,must surely know what is going to happen.You must blame Hamas as much as Youblame Israel but that point seems to be totally ignored by the pair of you.As for the S.A problem that is an entirely different situation.Did not like the way they treated There own people much the same as the Yanks treated there coloured population.But neither of these problems was cured by ethnic cleansing Whic is what youand DC4 seem to think The Israeli,s are trying to do the Palastinians.Israel does not seem to have any problems with the palastinians living outside of Gaza...

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 16:19

Interesting 'opinion piece' in the Guardian by Peter Tatchell re Hamas, Isreal and left liberal viewpoints can be found here if anyone is interested



http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/feb/18/hamas-palestine-israel-human-rights

Fred8


Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 19:44

Coachi - we appear to be talking at cross purposes and arguments based on different premises. Lets break your last statment and examine it piece by piece:

1."..any state who is attacked by sources outside its borders has the right to retaliate against those sources with what ever means it decides". Israel may have withdrawn from Gaza but for all intent and purposes Gaza can not operate as an independent entity. It is one big camp at the mercy of the Israeli army. It is under occupation. See my last 2 sentences in msg 64. I hope you agree with me so far. Now palestinian as a whole have been under occupation for decades, some made refugees thrice over. There are individuals in Gaza who have became refugees in 1948, again 1967 and several timesover in the 21 Century. My next question to you is, in the circumstance of msg 64 as a whole, do individual have a right to resist a brutal occupation or not? The point is that the Palestineans are brutalised and have been forced into whatever ...

Fred8


Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 19:50

actions they take -which pales into insignificance when compared to Israeli action. Are you aware that before the breakdown of the ceasefire on 4th Nove -broken by iSRAELI RAIDS on the tunnels - Israeli forces were assassinating palestinian leaders? We are not talking here of a normal state of affairs where French and Belgium toss bombs at each other. ....

2)

Fred8


Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 20:30

2) Israeli treats its own Arab citizen equally if not worse than S Afica did. This is where claims of aparthied comes it. I can list an arm list of how this is but will suffice to say this 1 in 5 israeli citizen but how many arab MPs are there? how many arabs are there in the Israeli civil service? what is the economic state of this 1/5 'Israeli's?. The answers to just these question alone will telll you if there is aparthied in Israeli or not

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 20:45

Fred you are attempting to educate the uneducatable..prob no such word but I like it ... some ppl just refuse to accept the truth no matter what...keep trying though as I enjoy the ludicrous answers that fly back ...night now.

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 22:30

fred8/ dc4..If you have not read the article posted by erolz in msg 68 very interesting reading, but no doubt you two will only pick out the bit about Israel and ignore the rest. the bit about apartheid was very interesting especially the part which says people trying to compare it with the palastinian situation.

Try and pick better words concerning My quality of educationDC4 otherwise you may end up making an ass of your self especially with your superior interlect,most unbecoming old girl ,what!!

I suppose the Guardian article will no doubt be rubbished by you, but if you care to look through some of my answers to you, there are very similar statements to ones I have made i.e especially concerning Hamas and its aims..I will again say I am sorry about the deaths of women and children but this happens in armed conflict and it will never change.Please read the article fairly,not with a one sided oppinion,and let me hear your replies...

Fred8


Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 01:05

Honestly, I fail to see the relevance of the thatchell article to the discussion of the last few days on this thread. In summarry, it is devoted to the internal conflict within Gaza but, I do find it amusing coachie, that you would fall back on Tatchell irrelevant article, although factually correct to an extent, to defend your views!!!! Why? because your views are 100% diametric to Tatchells on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict!!! Tatchell as been at the forefront with the all the pro-palestanian groups opposing Israeli and its action in the occupied territories. His only gripe is with the persecution of gays in Iran and Palestine.



But what I do strongly object is to your often by the way remarks of 'I will again say I am sorry about the deaths of women and children but this happens in armed conflict'- in 3 weeks 400 children killed, forget the women and the elderley, in a one sided war with the most sophisticated weapons on earth compliments of the worlds democracy and this all;

Fred8


Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 01:19

is all you can say .. sorry!!!! (by the way!). surely, you must maintain some sort of proportionality in your life coachie. In the last 3 YERA howm many Israeli got killed (civilians) ? 8. How many Palestinians killed in the last three years? over 5,000. The UN General Secretary said last week this is shocking and an investigation must be carried out.



Hamas' viewpoint you also keep pointing out to i.e destruction of the Israeli state. Come on Coachie, tell ME can ALL the combined arab states wipe out Israeli?of course not unless you believe Israeli propoganda off course: the moment any or all arab countries cross a red line they will be nuked by Israeli!!! so you think Hamas can wipe off Israel off the map? with home made rockets with a max range of 45 km (London to Watford!!)- coachie use your grey matter man do not fall for all the bullshit coming out of tel aviv and DC! I do not wish to give a lecture here but in military terms threat equals intention plus capability. Not even..

Fred8


Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 01:25

the combined military power of the Arabs do not pose a threat to the survival of Israel!!!! OF COURSE THE ISRAELI'S AND THE AMERICANS WOULD LEAD US TO BELIEVE OTHERWISE. Why? so the occupation continues and the arabs are humuliated permenantly.



Finally, I am nowI am repeating myself, please go back to Tatchell's article and you will see you have not been saying the thing he has been saying all this time. And to make certain look up Tatchell's history: he has been the most virulent anti-Israeli on the occupied territories but it is nice to now that you have put yourself albiet accidently on Tatchell's side!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fred8


Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 01:34

Tatchell'd side of course is dee's side!! I told you there was hope yet for you. When my 6 year tells me that he does not wish to have Nestle's chocolate bar or Coco cola because of their donations to the killing fields of Gaza- I have hope for the whole world to come round and see the light!

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 18:39

I have stated on several postings that Hamas rule by threat and violence in Gaza and thatchells article agrees with me.The whole article is about the aims of Hamas which the he defines very acurately.You seem to be under the impression that I agree with all the death and destruction in Gaza,But youarewrong.There is no possibility of Israel nuking any country,with perhaps the exception of Iran,because they can ,and have dealt with them before with conventional means.If Hamas were to be finally booted out of Gaza I feel absolutely certain an agreement could be reached,which I have stated before but has been poo-pooed by you and DC4.How can you negotiate with an organisation who will only talk if they can have everything they want.Hamas will fight to last palastinian is dead, that is there belief..

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 19:33

Face the Fact

isreal occupy 81% of palestine



Israel :

Created 4 million+ Refugees

Holds World's record for UN Violations at 69+

Killed more innocent civilians per capita than any other country 50,000+

Has Imprisoned more civilians per cap 250,000+ ,

Has rendered more civilians Handicapped per cap 50,000+

Demolished more homes than any other country 60,000+

Outlawed marriage to Non-Jews,

Destroyed 350 Christian Churches & Mosques 6 Wars in 60 years

254 km of Apartheid Wall (twice berlin wall in height and length)

562 Check Points Has Ethnically cleansed 500+ villages



No justice no peace

Free bethleham free palestine free jerusalem

end the terror end the killing

israel the new aparthied state

zionism the new nazism

gaza the new warsaw-end the seige



true peace with one denocratic state











In the Warsaw Ghetto, denied food, medical supplies,... sealed into a tightly packed area by a wall and unable to escape... shot and bombed when they rebelled... they we

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 19:34

Face the Fact

isreal occupy 81% of palestine



Israel :

Created 4 million+ Refugees

Holds World's record for UN Violations at 69+

Killed more innocent civilians per capita than any other country 50,000+

Has Imprisoned more civilians per cap 250,000+ ,

Has rendered more civilians Handicapped per cap 50,000+

Demolished more homes than any other country 60,000+

Outlawed marriage to Non-Jews,

Destroyed 350 Christian Churches & Mosques 6 Wars in 60 years

254 km of Apartheid Wall (twice berlin wall in height and length)

562 Check Points Has Ethnically cleansed 500+ villages



No justice no peace

Free bethleham free palestine free jerusalem

end the terror end the killing

israel the new aparthied state

zionism the new nazism

gaza the new warsaw-end the seige



true peace with one denocratic state











In the Warsaw Ghetto, denied food, medical supplies,... sealed into a tightly packed area by a wall and unable to escape... shot and bombed when they rebelled... they we

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 19:36

Face the Fact

isreal occupy 81% of palestine



Israel :

Created 4 million+ Refugees

Holds World's record for UN Violations at 69+

Killed more innocent civilians per capita than any other country 50,000+

Has Imprisoned more civilians per cap 250,000+ ,

Has rendered more civilians Handicapped per cap 50,000+

Demolished more homes than any other country 60,000+

Outlawed marriage to Non-Jews,

Destroyed 350 Christian Churches & Mosques 6 Wars in 60 years

254 km of Apartheid Wall (twice berlin wall in height and length)

562 Check Points Has Ethnically cleansed 500+ villages



No justice no peace

Free bethleham free palestine free jerusalem

end the terror end the killing

israel the new aparthied state

zionism the new nazism

gaza the new warsaw-end the seige



true peace with one denocratic state











In the Warsaw Ghetto, denied food, medical supplies,... sealed into a tightly packed area by a wall and unable to escape... shot and bombed when they rebelled... they we

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 19:37

In the Warsaw Ghetto, denied food, medical supplies,... sealed into a tightly packed area by a wall and unable to escape... shot and bombed when they rebelled... they were murdered in their thousands as the World stood by...



In the Gaza Strip, denied food and medical supplies,...sealed into a tightly packed area by a wall and unable to escape... shot and bombed when they rebelled... they were murdered in their thousands as the World stood by...

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 19:38

I hope these figures are taken on board and digested although I have to say, they are indigestable...

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 20:04

RE msg 83, deecyprus4 : (...) I hope these figures are taken on board and digested although I have to say, they are indigestable... (...)



===> The good news about your endless, hostile posts is that Israel knows how to survive and doesn't give a damn about the opinion of its enemies. Poor Israel if the country had to rely on hate-filled people like you. Ah!, but the good news is... Etc.

Fred8


Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 20:58

These are figures that the 'poor iIsreal' has successfully for years attempted to to put at the bottom of the Mid-East debate. If people, 'hate filled' ones, had kept silent over aparthied Mandela would still be in jail; if ML King had kept quite Obama would have been lynched for just aspiring to become president of the US let alone becoming one; if the US University campus' and the streets of Australia and Europe had not seen people coming in their droves to oppose the vietnam war that country would still be bleeding; if you want more example I would be happy to provide you with them. Intellectual laziness and dishonesty always relies on emotional blackmail to counter the indefensible and when confronted by facts: so now it is poor Israel and 'hatefill' people! Paraphasing Clinton, Stupid this not about hate or anti-jewishness but about justice and infliction of brutality on a defenseless people mainly children and women. I wander what would your remarks had been if some of the above

Fred8


Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 21:01

facts had been presented to you by an Israeli? There are numerou Israelis who are solidly with people like the ones you refer to as 'hatefilled'! debate facts with facts if you want to contribute to the arquments.

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 21:36

All that death and destruction heaped upon them,and they still have not learned a thing,justs says to me how stupid they are.If I was going to pick a fight with some one it would not be with some one I new would pummel me into the ground,time and time again.Iwould have called a truce after the first battering.I have decided that this is my last post on this discussion because we will never agree on any thing so it has now become pointless..Goodbye..

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 21:49

Coachie I think you are right to stop posting on this as its stops being a debate and turns into a personal feud.



By the way I agreed with most of what you wrote.

Fred8


Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 21:57

Coachi god help us. Imagine we had people like you throwing in the towel like this in 1939 as you suggest the Palestinians should do! We would be still under occupation by the Nazis! Neither has any other nation thrown the yoke of foreign occupation without suffering such brutalities as the Palestinians. Only people suffering for nationhood and freedom are willing to shoulder such pain which you refer to as stupid. At least you have been gracious enough to admit the pain and destruction wrought on the Palestineans over and over.

One final point, before you depart the thread, Palestinean resistance has not always been violent: for years it was a peaceful resistance and only when peaceful resistance failed that violence was supplented. Because this injustice has been going for so long people forget or overlook and make suggestions that the Palestinean should just sit and wait for a solution!

ckbabe123


Joined: 19/03/2009
Posts: 6

Message Posted:
07/04/2009 00:24

Its a pity that at this 21st century when world leaders are trying to unify the whole country and obama's travel to countries and even a muslim country, some people are still bringing politics, war, hatred and religion into sport. The organising committee should take a decisive action towards the sport governing body of dubai for their barbaric act.

Henry

parkview



Joined: 12/03/2009
Posts: 1123

Message Posted:
07/04/2009 19:03

Deecyprus4 just would like to know if you personally have ever visited the middle east and how many Israeli, palastinian friends you actually have.

I have many friends from both sides and not all Jews are happy with the way Palastinians are treated but unfortunately bigoted views like yours are dangerous and biased. Please stop referring to all jews as Israeli, they are not, judasisim is a faith, not a nationality. Have you ever lived in constant threat of your life and whole existence, I doubt that.

"The state of israel will not be satified until every Palestinian is dead" think you have this statement the wrong way round.

Murder in any form is a travesty but the human race have a right to DEFEND itself just as you would if someone attacked you in your home. If that is not the case then we should not have entered into a second world war.

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
07/04/2009 21:16

PARKVIEW...YOU WILL NOW BE PLACED IN THE "BIGOTED ,UNEDUCATED MORON BRACKET "Welcome to the clan and don your tin helmet because I suspect the flak at any momement..

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
07/04/2009 22:49

Maybe if she'd used MasterCard or American Express all would've been hunky dory. Visa no good these days as they are cutting back like mad all over the world!



Richard

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
08/04/2009 14:46

Brinsley..took me a couple of seconds to cotton to that,,very good!!!

Littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
08/04/2009 14:54

dinners club is accepted in 364 countries