Do you want North Cyprus to be in the EU?

petez


Joined: 04/12/2008
Posts: 560

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 09:06

I know the talks have some way to go yet, but do you think it will be a good thing for you if unification becomes a reality, and the inevitable happens?

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 09:13

Definately NO...the TRNC just needs all embargo's lifted..

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 09:33

Dear Petez



Cyprus - which includes the area you refer to -is ALREADY *in* the EU.



The "Acquis Coordinaire - normal EU status re procedures " is merely suspended.



Re msg 2 Dee, the "embargoes" can go any time.. when the UN Security Council Resolution re the "declaration of independence" of "TRNC" is rescinded..



They are "self -inflicted" ..

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 09:53

Bordermark...take a walk

PIPIE


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 11:58

Not sure about wanting TRNC to become a member of the EU cannot imagine it happening in the near future .

TRNC are happy to accept money from the EU and while handouts are on the cards , then TRNC can just take anvantage of this , not sure how long they can do it for though !!!!!

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 12:25

Dee



Then someone with an interpol arrest warrant for murder would have to either be handed over or indeed go on the run.

slimboyfat


Joined: 01/05/2008
Posts: 96

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 12:43

Mark is quite correct, the question should be "would you like the suspension to continue?"

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 13:02

MM msg 3



We have had this discussion many times before Mark but the reality is if the TRNC were to declare itself a federal component state of the RoC in waiting rather than an independent state it would not affect the embargoes as far as they currently exist. You constantly repeat the mantra that all the TRNC has to do is withdraw its decleration of independance and all embargoes would disapear. Direct flights would be possible, direct export trade from the North to EU not via the South , sporting representation etc etc would all follow according to you.



This is just not ture. The embargoes relate to much more than just the decleration of indpendance and many pre date it. There is the issue of the partition of the island, the denial of GC rights to property post 74 without valid local remedy, the presense of Turkish troops. Just a self declared change of status of the TRNC without any other changes would not affect the embargoes.

petez


Joined: 04/12/2008
Posts: 560

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 13:02

Sorry if my definition was incorrect, MMMMM i think everyone knows what i mean.

Personally i would like to get a direct flight and the property mess sorted out.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 13:18

A lot of people bought property on the assumption that prices would rise once the unification happened.

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 14:57

Hi mmmmm



On another tag I was ticked off by Macha for not recognising TRNC was already a member of the EU as you point out above. So I asked Macha exactly when the people of the whole island of Cyprus voted to join?

His answer remains deafeningly silent so maybe you could answer by proxy.



I think also having read many of your threads and answers you are a mine of excellent information when it comes to UN and EU resolutions and I do not doubt your sincerity but what you have to understand is not everyone accepts these institutions for what they claim to be. Just look at the anti EU feeling here in the uk. The EU itself has admitted, as an entity, it would never gain admission to the EU because it fails most of it's own conditions of entry

15 years and still no one will sign off their yearly budget because of wholesale corruption... 15 years?



As for the UN, another nest of vipers, try talking to the people of Zimbabwe et al as to their thoughts to its validity?



Joseph

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 15:05

cont...



My son rang me from Dublin last night to say he was losiing his job because the firm was going bust beacause of outstanding unpaid invoices for work acrried out, and many people thought that the devastation being caused was not just because of the Global Credfit Cruunch but also by EU restrictions which do not allow Ireland to focus on its own generic problems.

Everything and everyone is answerable to the European bank and they are straightjacketed by it.



Are things really coming home to roost for the Irish yes vote?

Does it explain their last rejection re EU constitution?



My point being mmmm that not all is rosey in either garden of the EU and UN?



Regards Joseph

SulCon


Joined: 13/02/2008
Posts: 43

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 16:21

Joseph,



Just to take up a few points in your last thread.



There were a myriad of reasons for Ireland's no to Lisbon vote last Summer, chief among them being the Government's arrogance and not bothering to actually campaign for a Yes vote. Recent polls here show that the Lisbon treaty will be passed over-whelmingly in the next referendum, likely to held in early Summer.



Truth is that Ireland's economic woes would be far worse if it weren't for the stability of the eurozone. Much of our recent prosperity was due to the euro.



Incidentally the version of Sunday Times that is sold in Ireland was not allowed carry any articles or even letters that alluded to anything positive about the EU during the Lisbon campaign! Freedom of the press, how are you?!!

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 16:39

Hi Sulcon ... fair points but...



The Irish people voted NO, as did French and Germans previously...



Irish government was given a right dressing down by EU for not obtaining a yes vote and told to go back and procure a yes vote or else...



Arrogance !!!

The Irish voted NO, but EU will continue forcing referenda til they get the vote they want.



Question...

Had the people voted yes would EU insist on another vote in case the people change their minds to a NO vote... somehow I do not think so...



We were promised a vote here in UK... the polls are tipping a NO vote so still we wait until the powers that be are certain of obtaining what they want.



As a pro EU voter, which I respect, what are your thoughts on the total lack of probity with regards the EU budget and the refusal of any first treasury minister

to sign the annual budget off... for 15 years ...because of corruption.

The last (Belgian Lady I believe) was sacked outright for refusing to do so.



Joseph

SulCon


Joined: 13/02/2008
Posts: 43

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 18:08

I am not a "Pro EU voter" Joseph, I just wanted to present an alternative view to some of your comments.



The Irish people were compelled to vote due to our constitution. In my opinion it is the Irish Government who are pushing for another referendum.

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 18:46

Sincere apologies Sulcan,



I didn't mean to imply ulterior motives when suggesting you were pro EU ,

just thought if you were, you would give your take re corruption ripe in the EU.



Like most UK citizens I am becoming really disillusioned with the whole shabang. I originally voted no, then on the second vote way back when, I voted yes, as this seemed to be the majority view, now I am sorry I changed.

Remember we were originally asked to vote on a "Common Market" which would allow free trade between member states ... no more no less.



Seems to me we now have an out of control, unaccountable Leviathan.



Re Irish vote and government, do you think therefore there should be another vote or have the Irish people spoken... and if so and there is a Yes vote should there be a final deciding vote etc... where does it end?



Regards Joseph

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 19:19

cant see no end to it joseph ??

SulCon


Joined: 13/02/2008
Posts: 43

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 19:28

No Problem Joseph. No offense taken.The Irish Government have a peculiar habit of repeating referenda until they get the answer they want! Reminds me of Fr. Ted sometimes , " ah go on , go on, have a cup of tea", you have to say no a few times before anyone belives you!



I simply believe that on the whole membership of the EU and particularly the euro have been positive for Ireland. I'm no apologist for the EU. I don't consider it perfect, far from it. I just wanted to counteract the belief that everything related to the EU is negative, a view very much reflected in the UK press.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 19:40

Dear Erol Z re msg 8



" if the TRNC were to declare itself a federal component state of the RoC in waiting rather than an independent state it would not affect the embargoes as far as they currently exist"



The TCs already voted to do this, within Annan - but the GCs didn't accept the plan.



If the TCs could persuade TR to allow them to Undeclare the "declaration" then the EU - esp the UK would find a way to allow direct flights, sporting links, education links and ways to trade WOULD be found - China and Russia might be a "problem" re the rescinding at the UN - but it is a "card" to keep up the sleeve - esp if the talks fail.



It won't change the situation re property - but, in conjunction with a large withdrawal of troops..



Perhaps when Mr Erdogan wins a third term and has renewed "power" we'll see thing happening re Cyprus.



If Ismet's theory is right Turkey ( Deep state) doesn't WANT "TRNC" recognised ..



2009 WILL be interesting..

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 19:42

Hi Sulcon,



As my Nan is from Galway and Grandda hails from Dublin I would be the last to knock the Irish... God bless 'em



Re Fr Ted... last year we were in Claremorris and attended Mass on Ash Wednesday in a small local church. There were about 20 locals or so in the congregation and it was Ash Wednesday. Father decided to concentrate on the evils of drink in his sermon and gave it a right old bashing, good time.



After Mass everyone trooped out a little bashfully to where the priest was saying hello... once all the greetings were over he shouts to all and sundry...

O.K lads it looks like O'Reilly's is open, just time for a quick guinness before lunch !



You couldn't make it up



Regards Joseph

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 19:55

Hi Petez re 9



and *I'm* sorry as my post seems a little too much like a "lecture" :(

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 19:57

Joesph re 11



1/ I'm sorry to hear about your Son.. it seems the Celtic Tiger economy - which I would attribute to EU membership and the ability to "leap frog" the UK - has finally imploded ..



2/ I'm not Macha, and I don't know his views on the EU.. but briefly - GCs didn't vote - if they had of been asked 95%+ would have said YES..and ( and TCs)

a) Monolithic

b) Costly

c) Inefficient



BUT I believe it's existence has ensured former sparring partners can't / won't ever consider war.. hopefully they are too joined at the hip.. I think all the crap is worth it... but this is not the view of an elderly heroine of WWII from Warsaw I know..! She things the EU will implode..:(



EU membership has allowed me to move and trade "freely" around Europe and gave my family rights the UK or Irish laws don't give .. Thank you, Directive 2004/EC/38



UN.. ? I know, not stopping genocide / ethnic cleansing.. corruption.. inefficient.. could do better.. only as good as sum of its parts.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 20:14

joseph: "just thought if you were, you would give your take re corruption ripe in the EU."



Surely the bigger question would be, allowing for differences in scale, is corruption in the EU anything like as bad as corruption in the TRNC? Because the fact remains that at last there is machinery in place in the EU to deal with corruption when detected. Remember the mass resignations a while back, which included Neil Kinnock?



However, in the TRNC corruption and lawlessness is part of the government culture. A parliamentary candidate and former agriculture minister is wanted by Interpol on a murder rap. But of course he's safe in the TRNC. The alleged killer was earlier caught by Turkish customs with a suitcase full of smuggled Nokia mobile phones. He claimed he was "carrying the case for a friend". No further action taken. Such is the calibre of scum who can achieve office in the TRNC.



And you talk about corruption in the EU? I think it's time for a reality check.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 20:19

joseph,



re your other point about an EU vote in Cyprus considering there was no referendum what difference does it make? Legal Cypriots are all citizens now, for good or for bad. In my opinion that's good.

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 22:47

Macha



What difference does it make?



Staggering conclusion for someone who rightly propagates the rights of the peoples of Cyprus.



Must remember that one Macha next time you are making a point re EUCJ or the ECHR judgements. In fact I even think you may have hit the nail on the head. Whatever any of these courts say... What difference does it make...

for unless they deal with the Status Quo... what difference does it really make?



Regards Joseph

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 22:55

Macha cont...



Again, you won't deal with the question raised... but head off in another direction albeit a question of corruption in TRNC.



The fact remains corruption is rife in the EU and to simply ignore and move the thread without considering this fact is how the politicians get away with it....

Ignoring the question does NOT make it go away...

for instance re Budget Fraud alone... for 15 years.



Seems to me if the EU want it's judgements to be taken seriously you have to have a certain moral stance that at least claims to represent honesty and fairness ... is that really to much to ask the fat cats in Brussels?



Regards Joseph

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 22:55

msg25 spot on , morrisey sang it ///

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 22:57

P.S Macha...



This is a sincere question ... what is a legal Cypriot please?



Regards Joseph

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 23:03

Mmmmm



As I said before , I might not agree with every post you write, but your answers are always direct and honest.



Just give me a quick lesson here Mmm, if neither GC nor TC voted for Eu membership which back door did Cyprus get in by?



Regards Joseph

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 23:36

hi joseph, the greek one of course , your msg 29 , no other way for them was their ???

Yvonne



Joined: 16/05/2008
Posts: 273

Message Posted:
26/02/2009 00:05

In answer to the initial question: Yes.

...but then, that's my opinion...

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
26/02/2009 02:18

To be honest anyone reading my thoughts on this thread would think I am anti European, far from it, I am pro European... just anti EU.



As they say, politics would be fine if it wasn't for politicians



Good night all zzz



Regards Joseph

petez


Joined: 04/12/2008
Posts: 560

Message Posted:
26/02/2009 02:26

Talk about politicians avoiding the question...

I think only Dee and Yvonne actually said yes or no!!



Thanks for all your opinions anyway!

Best Wishes



Pete

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
26/02/2009 03:37

Hi Petez, re msg 33

"Talk about politicians avoiding the question...

I think only Dee and Yvonne actually said yes or no!! "



Only a "politician" might ask a question to which the answer is already known by the international community and the EU.. )



re msg 29, Joeeph

"if neither GC nor TC voted for Eu membership which back door did Cyprus get in by? "



No "back door".. it was held wide open by the EU.. esp. as Greece said it would veto the whole enlargement process, if it didn't ....



*I* think that Annan would have been different if the RoC wasn't acceding to the EU no matter how the GCs voted..



Greece was able to "wash it 's hands of Cyprus" and the new Greek govt wanted the GCs to vote YES to Annan.. it is far more interested in getting TR in the club.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
26/02/2009 08:41

MM msg 19



Pure speculation MM. Also pretty much what the EU told the TC community would happen if the voted yes to the Annan Plan, yet the EU has to date been unable to deliver on these comittments. Now you expect me to believe they would deliver and overcome GC blocking if the TC community did something that the EU has not even asked us to do or made any comittment about ? I personally think you just like the idea that any embargoes on the TC community are 'self imposed' and that they could have them removed by a simple act - regardless of if there is any actual credible eveidence that this would be the case.

jock1



Joined: 06/01/2008
Posts: 3786

Message Posted:
26/02/2009 08:51

When i first came here,NO now YES.........

Amber


Joined: 26/09/2008
Posts: 561

Message Posted:
26/02/2009 13:36

For purely selfish reasons Yes ...... then I can get my darling animals back to UK without 6 months in quarantine

breezyboy


Joined: 14/05/2007
Posts: 1179

Message Posted:
26/02/2009 13:58

Answering the original question ....

Purely personal and very selfish.....

No because the cost of living would rise sharply as it has done over the last too years assuming TRNC went into the Euro.

No because I wouldn't be getting the interest rates I get if TRNC was in the Eurozone.

The plus side would be that the house prices would start to accelerate but I dont want to sell so that means No again.

Cars might be cheaper so Yes, but the former outweigh this one to me.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
26/02/2009 15:09

Re msg 19, ErolZ



"Pure speculation MM".. that's quite true.. but let us see if all my scenarios can come into play...



Actually, it's what TCs were told if they voted yes and the GCs did, too.. The EU have managed to put proportionally MORE aid the way of TCs than the "rump" RoC.. did you know that ?!



"I personally think you just like the idea that any embargoes on the TC community are 'self imposed'"..



Please explain how can do you arrive at that conclusion? .. the difficulties TCs face are because of actions taken to "appear" as if they ran their own show.. No less an institution than the UN voted to remind them of that..



Since 2004 it can be argued that they have voted to end the "TRNC" and as the UN Sec Resolution is still in force, and some nations US/ UK seem to want to "reward" TCs then the actions I mentioned would "help" ..



"Creditable evidence?"..we may see it in the coming months..We can but wait and see ..

ricky


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 294

Message Posted:
26/02/2009 17:07

msg 9 : for me you're right : direct flights and no property problems

ricky


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 294

Message Posted:
26/02/2009 17:13

msg 9 : for me you're right : direct flights and no property problems

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
26/02/2009 17:37

MM msg 39



"Actually, it's what TCs were told if they voted yes and the GCs did, too.. "



No MM it is what the TC community was promised AFTER the Annan no vote from GC community and BEFORE the RoC joined the EU.



http://ue.eu.int/ueDocs/cms_Data/docs/pressData/en/gena/80142.pdf



"The Turkish Cypriot community have expressed their clear desire for a future within the European Union. The Council is determined to put an end to the isolation of the Turkish Cypriot community and to facilitate the reunification of Cyprus by encouraging the economic development of the

Turkish Cypriot community.The Council invited the Commission to bring forward comprehensive proposals to this end,.."



The comissions plans that the Council asked it to draw up were for both aid and trade. The RoC, which was represented at the council meeting linked above and signed the document, has so far blocked all attempts to meet the trade comittment.



cont

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
26/02/2009 17:46

yet you STILL constantly repeat the mantra that all the TC community needs to do is state they are not an independant nation but some kind of federal unit of a unifed Cyprus in waiting and all the restrictions on the North would disapear.



"Please explain how can do you arrive at that conclusion?"



When you constanly repeat that the embargoes on the North are self inflicted and could easily be removed by a unilateral act of the TC to simply self declare a different status for the TRNC, when all sense reason and evidence says otherwise then what else can I assume ?



"The EU have managed to put proportionally MORE aid the way of TCs than the "rump" RoC.. did you know that ?"



The EU has pledged 246 million Euros in aid to the TRNC post the Annan Plan. This is less than Turkey subsidies the TRNC annualy. To compare a one off aid pledge to the North vs the ongoing aid that the RoC will recieve from EU is comparing different things.



Some aid NO TRADE.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
26/02/2009 17:52

So a WRITTEN pledge from the HIGHEST EU executive authority signed by ALL members of the EU (and RoC as a soon to be member) expressing it's "determined to put an end to the isolation of the Turkish Cypriot community" back in 2004 has after 5 years still FAILED to end the isolation of the TC community. Yet according to you if we change the name / status of the TRNC all isolations WILL end. It just is not a credible claim yet it IS one you make repeatedly over and over. I can only speculate why you would do this against all reason and evidence.

spider


Joined: 03/01/2009
Posts: 5527

Message Posted:
26/02/2009 18:34

whatever the outcome we have to deal with it.and i dont think any of us have a vote.or say...so i will continue to live from day to day...















spider

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
26/02/2009 21:30

joseph,



Re earlier points. If there is corruption in the EU, which I don't doubt as any organisation that size will have bad apples, at least there are methods to call offenders to account and get rid of them.



In the TRNC people like Gary Robb were welcomed in and given citizenship so he could rip off our countrymen by the hundreds, while a former government minister on an international murder warrant is allowed to stand for office.



On another thread you were hinting that anonymous posters are only there so they can knock this place. Just remember that in the TRNC you will rarely know who you can trust. There is no free press calling those in authority to account. On the contrary, the authorities do exactly as they please with impunity.



I think you may just be starting to realise what you've let yourself in for.



BTW, legal Cypriots are those born on the island of Cypriot parents and who have Cypriot nationality.

jay76


Joined: 17/07/2008
Posts: 532

Message Posted:
26/02/2009 21:42

while a former government minister on an international murder warrant is allowed to stand for office.



AS IF

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
26/02/2009 22:20

Macha msg 46



"BTW, legal Cypriots are those born on the island of Cypriot parents and who have Cypriot nationality."



Maybe according to the law of Macha - but according to the law of both the RoC and the TRNC any sibling of a Cypriot Citizen is LEGALLY a Cypriot Citizen. Just ask all those on both side born in the UK to one or both Cypriot parents who didnt realise this aand stay over 90 days on holiday and then had to do military service as a result - as they were legally citzens. Just make it up as you go along Macha - you are a 'journalist' it is claimed.



Macha's view



" There is no free press calling those in authority to account."



US Bureau of Democracy Human Rights and Labour 2008 report on Cyprus' view



(cont)

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
26/02/2009 22:22

"a. Freedom of Speech and Press



The law provides for freedom of speech and of the press, and the authorities generally respected these rights in practice; however, journalists were at times obstructed in their reporting, fined, and threatened with more serious charges.



Individuals can and generally did publicly criticize the authorities without reprisal. However, in November two youths were arrested for forming a group on the Facebook Internet site that involved "gross personal insults" against "TRNC president" Mehmet Ali Talat. The youths were detained for three days and released pending trial.



The independent media were active and expressed a wide variety of views without restriction. International media were generally allowed to operate freely. Bayrak Radyo Televizyon Kurumu is the only "government"-owned television/radio station. "



Take your pick as to which is more complete and unbaised !

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 01:57

Hi Macha...



Re... corruption in the EU there are methods to call them to account and get rid



Problem is Macha guess where they get rid of them? ......... The EU



Take Mandelson for example, twice he has been sacked in disgrace from our corrupt New Labour government... so shipped off to Europe and immediately given a commissioners job with the paltry salary of £250,000 plus benefits.



Time takes its toll on peoples memories so he is then brought back and the free press hardly raises a whimper. A free press is great Macha so long as you own the free press and place all your "own" people in charge a la BBC etc.

Ever wonder why revolutionaries take over the tv and radio stations before anything else...



Re anonymity... read my post, I sought advice re pros and cons and it seemed to me most of the anonymous ones seem very negative, but I will accept any correction of this with good grace.



Finally Macha you live here already so why ....

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 02:06

Finally Macha you live here already so why so disparaging about TRNC.



Seriously I understand there are problems and I honestly accept any criticisms you feel ought to be aired, but surely if we are to see major improvements we need to act positively and try to bring about change. As like HBPG.



Sometimes Macha I feel you make excellent points, albeit even negatively, which is fine but ... so often they are placed in such a way as to be a wind up and then your excellent points lose their potency. Or is that just me?



Kind Regards Joseph

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 09:07

Dear ErolZ rem msgs 42-44



1/ who has managed to "block" the aid the EU WANT to give and WHY?



The GCs.of course as they don't want the EU upgrading the status of "TRNC" to a level where it it's recognition appears de facto to the EU.



EU aid to Turkish Cypriots hampered by island's division

27 September 2007, 17:55 CET

(BRUSSELS) - The EU cannot dispense much-needed aid to the isolated Turkish community in northern Cyprus due to the island's political division, according to the European Commission.



"The legal, diplomatic and political context within which the Commission is operating ... poses a number of challenges and risks to the successful implementation" of the 259 million euros (367 million dollars) of aid destined for the north of the island, the EU's executive arm said in a report given to the EU parliament and member states last week.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 09:15

Dear ErolZ rem msgs 42-44 (cont)



2/ What would happen if that legal "block" was removed.. ?



Of course the aid would flow.. so AGAIN you suggest the EU is at "fault" when it is plain that it is being legally stymied by the RoC because of the legal status of "TRNC"...



3/ Who "made" "TRNC".. who brought it into existence? It is a self-inflicted "mistake" that continues to be a stick with which the GCs can legally beat TCs..



4/ YES.. the TCs voted yes.. YES the EU said we will give you aid, but they did not expect the GC "legal objections".



5/ If the GCs are too "stubborn" or "silly" to see how this legalistic stance is damaging their case/ cause at the EU, so be it.



6/ So we're back to .. are the TCs "smarter" or can't / won't Turkey "let" them..

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 09:21

MM you said that the comittments made to the TC community by the EU were only if both sides voted yes. I have shown you were wrong about that.



You seem to admit that the RoC has been able to hamper the efforts of the EU to meet its 2004 comittment to the TC community re aid and they have also totaly blocked the trade aspect of the EU's 2004 comittment.



Yet you STILL insist that if the TRNC self declared a change in it's status then all these problems would disapear and all isolation on TC community in the North would end.



This does not make sense. If the EU have been do date unable to meet specfic comittments made at the highest executive level in 2004 to the TC community by all member states (including the RoC) then how can you possibly believe that a name change of the TRNC would make the difference. If it would make all the difference why has the EU not said so ?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 09:37

MM this is just ridiculous.



Yes if the TRNC was to self declare it's status as not being an indpendent nation but a federal component in waiting it would gain the TC community some SMALL amount of brownie points in the international community.



But to suggest that doing so would end all the isolations on the TC community is just a ridiculous claim. If they were to do so the RoC would STILL consider the 'new' entity illegal, just as they did for the 10 years post 74 and BEFORE such a decleration of independance. They would STILL do all in their power to block or hamper aid, trade , direct flights , direct sporting links etc etc etc.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 13:08

Macha

I am still waiting for you to try and justify this claim of yours.



"BTW, legal Cypriots are those born on the island of Cypriot parents and who have Cypriot nationality."



A simple 5 mins research on this issue would show that your claim has no basis in fact at all. You use this totaly inaccurate claim to justify your repeated assertions about myself that I am not a Cypriot or a 'real Cypriot' and am in fact an 'imigrant' in Cyprus and imply that when I claim to be a legal Cypriot citizen according to RoC laws and TRNC laws I am in fact lying or mistaken.



FACT - Your claim of what defines a Cypriot Citizen is NOT correct.

FACT - Under RoC law I am a legal citizen of the RoC.



What you are attempting to do is no different from nationalist in any country dismissing the views of other LEGAL CITIZENS of that country on the basis that they are not 'true' or 'real' citizens, not according to the LAW, but according to some discriminatory prejudice they hold.

stevemac


Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 99

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 13:51

I don't think it would benefit anyone, increased prices, eurozone which has been devastated by financial crisis. I think in five years or so there will be no Euro.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 19:02

Still waiting Macha - see post 56

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 19:09

Yes, it could mean Brits working freely in the North, although working restrictions could be applied, like those on Bulgarians in the UK.



EU is beauracratic and it's rulers are lavished with great wealth. It takes a MEP just five years to earn a million pounds.



The big advantage of the EU is that it's members have enjoyed increased wealth through it's ethos of free trade and open borders, trust has developed between waring nations and offers safety in big numbers.



TR and TRNC would enjoy increased wealth, which has been acknowledged by TR foreign minister.



The EU offers protection for smaller states hence their proliferation. It is the home of some of the most powerful nations in modern history, states which are used to getting their own way.



Will the EU break apart? Well it has shown impressive solidarity during these harsh economic times, however I fear the timber might splinter under the combined effect of severe economic and environmental hardship.

McSteviet



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1089

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 19:15

No, I don't want TRNC in the EU.



It will spoil the place..... A solution is required yes, but not inside the EU imho.



Mc

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 19:18

I am dismayed that Macha, PP, Eric Seans, a Scottish national with no Cypriot ancestry whatsoever can claim to have more authority on Cyprus than Erolz who has deep Cypriot roots.



I can only assert, that macha is indeed a fanatic or he feels extremely exposed, knowing that Erolz posseses both a superior intellect and a greater understanding on the history and politics of Cyprus.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 19:20

msge 60



Yes Mcsteviet.What you say is indeed a worry

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 19:23

Erolz msgs 48/49,



It must have taken you a while to dig up a "friendly" report on press freedom in the TRNC. But you must have missed these passages:



"...however, journalists were at times obstructed in their reporting, fined, and threatened with more serious charges."



and



"...in November two youths were arrested for forming a group on the Facebook Internet site that involved "gross personal insults" against "TRNC president" Mehmet Ali Talat. The youths were detained for three days and released pending trial."



But since you went for a US reference, perhaps you should read this:



http://www.hofstra.edu/pdf/ORSP_Drucker_Spring03.pdf



http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=10336



Any journalist worth his salt knows the TRNC - where journalists have been murdered, intimidated, bombed and arrested - is not a fully democratic territory with full press freedoms.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 19:32

joseph,



I don't live full-time in TRNC, but I have lived there and may return when the TRNC is finally dismantled, its racist constitution consigned to history and the territory substantially demilitarised and full democracy restored.



I've reported extensively from both sides of the ceasefire line, have very good contacts in both communities and feel better qualified than some to comment as I see fit. If you feel negativity means some things lose their impact, so be it. I do stick to the facts and voice my own opinion based on experience.



Re Mandy, I think it's very easy for people to get carried away on a Daily Mail-style crusade. I don't find the man pleasant in the slightest but he's committed no crime (as far as I know) although he has involved himself in immoral and selfish behaviour. But in that case he has much in common with those who buy property in the TRNC to which they have no entitlement.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 19:35

Jay76



"while a former government minister on an international murder warrant is allowed to stand for office.







AS IF"





Do you know what you're saying here?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 19:37

Macha it did not take long to dig up the report as it was posted here on this forum in the last few days and as the latest such report I used it. I could use any number of reports to show that your bland assertion that



"There is NO free press calling those in authority to account." (my emphasis)



is far from the reality and just another of your biased distorted rantings. Not having full press freedom is NOT the same as saying there is NO press freedom. You said the later and clearly it is not true but just part of your usual rehtoric and propaganda.



Just like it is not true to make the claims that you have re Cypriot citizenship to try and justify your discriminatory attitude. The FACT is you make things up as you go along to suit your agenda with little regard for the truth or reality or any semblance of balance.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 19:40

erolz,



What I said about legal nationality was not incorrect. You can add as much on as you like and that may also be correct.



You say you qualify as a citizen of the Republic of Cyprus. Does that mean you have citizenship. Have you "TRNC"citizenship and if so, how far can you travel with a TRNC passport/ID card?



Come to that never mind your homework, have you done your army service?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 19:44

Macha msg 64



" I do stick to the facts and voice my own opinion based on experience."



It is NOT a FACT that "legal Cypriots are those born on the island of Cypriot parents and who have Cypriot nationality" as you have claimed and 5 minutes 'research on the internet would show that is not a fact.



Nor is it a fact that "There is NO free press calling those in authority to account." (my emphasis) as you have claimed.



You can claim that you 'stick top the facts'. You may even believe you do but the FACT is you do not. Given you can post totaly inacurate or distorted claims in the same thread you also claim to 'stick to the facts' pretty much sums it up for me.



Please do , once more, explain to me how I am not legally a Cypriot Citizen - despite the laws and reality and am in fact an immigrant.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 19:46

ilovecyprus: "I am dismayed that Macha, PP, Eric Seans, a Scottish national with no Cypriot ancestry whatsoever can claim to have more authority on Cyprus than Erolz who has deep Cypriot roots.



I can only assert, that macha is indeed a fanatic or he feels extremely exposed, knowing that Erolz posseses both a superior intellect and a greater understanding on the history and politics of Cyprus."



A bit paranoid for a Friday, aren't we? I don't know or care where you come from, but where Icome from our parents and grandparents fought for democracy and freedom of speech. Best get used to it - or ship yourself off to Turkey and the TRNC where you may enjoy seeing journalists getting arrested and harassed.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 19:55

Macha msg 67



"What I said about legal nationality was not incorrect."



Yes it is incorrect. Do not forget that in many other threads you have dismissed my view because you have CLAIMED I am not a 'real Cypriot' or am an 'immigrant'. The point and fact is I am a LEGAL citizen of bothe RoC AND TRNC. As I have pointed out before someone in the UK who sought to dismiss the views of other legal UK citizens based on the fact they are not 'real UK citizens' because they came from outside the UK originally would rightly be called a discriminating bigot. This is what you do here in my case.



"Does that mean you have citizenship [of RoC]."



If you did any actual research before spouting off on the legality of who is and is not a Cypriot Citizen you would know that my status as a Citizen is NOT dependent on my having applied for it.



cont

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 19:59

What the LAW actually says



"Citizens of the Rebulic are persons who, on the date of the comming intot operation of this Law, either have accuired OR ARE ENTITLED TO ACCQUIRE citizenship of the Rebulic."



So I have not to date chosen to accquire RoC Citizenship but under the law I remain a Citizen of the Republic.



"You say you qualify as a citizen of the Republic of Cyprus."



I do not 'say it'. It is a an uncontrevertible FACT unlike your claims that I am not a 'real' or 'true' Cypriot but in fact an immigrant.



"Have you "TRNC" citizenship"



Yes.



"have you done your army service?"



Yes.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 21:50

Macha 67



"What I said about legal nationality was not incorrect."



What you said was



"legal Cypriots are those born on the island of Cypriot parents and who have Cypriot nationality."



What the above says is that those that are not born on the Island or not of Cypriot parents are not legal Cypriots. This is just totally incorrect. You did NOT say that legal cypriots INCLUDE those born on the island etc. You gave a defenition of what legal Cypriots are - one specificaly designed to support your repeated claims that I was not a legal Cypriot (real cypriot , true cypriot) as you knew I was not born in Cyprus and have and English mother. That you now try and claim you were only describing one kind of legal cypriot does not change the fact that your claim as to what defines a legal Cypriot is just plain WRONG. If you were really trying to say that this is ONE or many criteria that defines a legal Cypriot - then why say it at all.



cont

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 21:56

Why would you out of nowhere make a statement about one set of criteria that defines a legal cypriot - that has no connection to anything discussed in this thread or anywhere else? The only reason your (incorrect) given definition of what makes a legal cypriot makes any contextual sense to the discussions we have been having is if it showed that your claims about ME not being a 'real cypriot' and being an 'immigrant' were based in law. They are not. Now you have been caught out in the very thread you in which you claim you 'stick to the facts' you try and make out that actually your defintion of legal cypriot was nothing more than a radom statement about one criteria that might make one a legal cypriot. Even then it is flawed as you talks about parents plural and that is just not any part of the relevant law in question. No where does it talk of the necessity of both parents being Cypriot.



Really really weak Macha.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 22:38

And just to highlight how you work Macha and your comittment to 'sticking to the facts' from another angle.



In msg 63 you snidely accuse ME of digging up a 'friendly' reference to freedom of the press implying that I went thorugh many many such reports to just cherry pick one that supported my point. The REALITY is that I took the FIRST such report from a major credible source that was posted here on this very forum less than a fortnight ago.



What YOU then do is pull out two articles one from 2003 and one from 2004 and NEITHER of which actually support your contention that there is NO freedom of press (at all) in the TRNC (today).



Yes there is problems re full freedom of the press in the TRNC and historically there have been major infringments of this freedom within the TRNC. However to turn that into 'there is NO freedom of the press in the TRNC' and then claim all you do is 'stick to the facts' is classic 'Macha'.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 23:24

msge 69



What has what I said got to do with freedom of speech or democracy?



I am commenting on your persistent strategy, of trying to undermine Erolz's status as a Cypriot.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
28/02/2009 00:36

erolz



i was born in cyprus to cypriot parents and pike still undermines my

status as a cypriot ,fundamentaly he undermines everything turkish ,however my angle on him is somewhere along the way something or someone turkish undermined him ,as he has a hatred for all things turkish.he portrays an image it,s just mainlanders,you make up your own mind .



musin



long live the kktc

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
28/02/2009 08:57

Dear Erolz, re 54/5



Happy to "admit" that EU promised the same after as before..that I was mistaken.. it's not hard !



Of COURSE the RoC "blocked" many of the aid initiatives.. not quite you why I would be "admitting it"...as if it was some sort of "concession" !!.. get it through that biased head of yours.. I'm was no fan of Liealotopoulos' govt. He was bad for the people of Cyprus - re a soln.- as Denktash.



We BOTH know there is a political will to elevate the status of TCs.



We both know there is a legal impediment to that.



I STILL contend that removing it - "TRNC", and a substantial proportion of TR troops leaving the island, would have put the "Liealotopoulos' govt" on the back foot and allowed initiatives / aid / education links/ Direct flights, etc.



OF COURSE the "rump" RoC would claim that the UN sec Council resolutions still applied, but I am CERTAIN the EU would have found a way around them.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
28/02/2009 09:00

re msg 77 ( cont)





With the talks going on - I don't think this is an appropriate action.



BUT.. if they fail and it is seen - by the EU - as being GC intransigence AND Mr Erdogan really does want a Cyprus solution and EU membership..



There'd be nothing to lose and a lot to gain..

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
28/02/2009 11:21

MM msg 77



"We both know there is a legal impediment to that."



Ther legal impediment relates to much more than just the stated name and status of the TRNC. The legal impediment came into force after the events of 74 and was real and blocked things like direct flights for 10 years BEFORE the TRNC decleration of indpendance. The notion that changing the status now would remove the legal impediment is not based in reality in my view.



"I STILL contend that removing it - "TRNC", and a substantial proportion of TR troops leaving the island, would have put the "Liealotopoulos' govt" on the back foot and allowed initiatives / aid / education links/ Direct flights, etc. "



Is very different from 'all the embargoes on the TC are self inflicted and they merely need to declare a change in status / name of the TRNC and they will disapear."



"but I am CERTAIN the EU would have found a way around them."



cont

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
28/02/2009 11:27

So the EU at the highest executive level made specific commitiments to the TC community that if they supported the Annan plan the EU would end the isolation of the TC community, yet failed to deliver on these comittment. Yet you want me to believe that if the TRNC did something that the EU has NEVER asked the TC community to do and has made NO comittment about they would end the isolations of the TC community. That to me makes no sense what so ever.



BTW if you were or were not a fan of TP and his government has no bearing on the issue being discussed as far as I can see. You contend one thing (and have been pushing the same line constanly accross many fora). I think the contention is invalid and there is little to no evidence that it is valid.

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
01/03/2009 16:44

Me - no

My misus - yes



Garry Monger - whats the EU ?

Garry Monger's Misus - is there a multiple choise question ?





Nick

spider


Joined: 03/01/2009
Posts: 5527

Message Posted:
01/03/2009 16:52

should be will we move if it is,will we move off if its not...??



well..........................













spider..

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
04/03/2009 11:39

Dear Erolz re 80



If the EU hadn't got a clue about the " Labyrinth without an exit " they had just entered - they DO now..



You seem to be suggesting the promises weren't made in good faith.



Again, with the talks going on, it is not a good time to made "big gestures", but if they fail - esp if it is seen to be GC intransigence - I maintain it would be enough to undermine the "RoC" stance.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
04/03/2009 13:39

MM What I am saying is that the EU at the highest executive level made a specific comittment to the TC community about ending the isolations on them if they supported the Annan Plan, but hove so far failed to achieve this.



You keep saying that if the TC community did something that the EU has NOT asked us to do and has made NO comittments about, the isolations will end.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
04/03/2009 13:44

re msg 84



and I asked you if you felt / thought they did this deliberately - in bad faith?..



The world community ( UN) has asked TCs to relinquish the claim for a long time - I hardly think you need reminding of the content or the links to the UN Security Council Resolutions regarding the "declaration of independence" of "TRNC" ? !

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
04/03/2009 14:40

re msg 85



"and I asked you if you felt / thought they did this deliberately - in bad faith?.. "



I think the RoC signed this comittment in bad faith. I do not think the EU as a whole made it in bad faith , but to a degree I think 'indeifferent faith' is not to far from the mark



I will try once more to explain my position MM. If the EU had said or was to say to the TC community (directly or indirectly) - we are trying our best to meet the comittments we made to you re ending your isolation but the ONE thing blocking such is your self declared status and if you were to change this ONE thing all isolations could be ended then I would listen. When the ONLY person saying this is a private indivdual then I remain skeptical that such an act would end all isolations on the TC community, despite the absolute certainty and frequency that this indivdual makes the claim.

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
04/03/2009 16:28

Message 69.....personally I dont mind some of the press/journalists being arrested.There is little or no factual reporting inthe press in the UK these days,and the vast majority of it has some owner subjectivity. From what I know of the press ie the ones I have met/meet,they are a self serving bunch,who tow the "party line",when it suits them.

As far as them being able to criticise anyone else...............you are always capable of a bite to the foot ,when you slither on your belly!

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
04/03/2009 16:32

re 86



Thanks for explaining your feelings re the EU.. I REALLY don't think they knew what they were getting themselves into.



I'm not the only one saying it, BTW.. ;)

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
04/03/2009 17:41

MM msg 88



"I'm not the only one saying it, BTW.. ;) "



Can you show where someone else is saying that if the TRNC were to self declare a change in it's status from independant state to component federal state in waiting then all current isolations on the TC community would end ?

sylvie


Joined: 12/03/2008
Posts: 1081

Message Posted:
04/03/2009 18:17

THE QUESTION IS : do you want cyprus to be in the EU - i say NO,NO,NO ! not anymore i was hoping in the referendum that GC would have change and accept that TC do exist - they refused - they didn't like the annan plan ! so time is over for me 2 legal states would be the only good thing !

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 10:55

Dear ErolZ,

re msg 89,



"Can you show where someone else is saying that if the TRNC were to self declare a change in it's status from independant state to component federal state in waiting then all current isolations on the TC community would end ?"



Well let's get what I'm saying correct..if you remember this goes back to a post of mine on the "TRNC"politics msn board back in 2004.. "Mr Erdogan should listen to me"..where I suggest that if "TRNC" implemented much of what Annan asked for ( renouncing "TRNC" - starting to send troops back", preparing for regional govt.") that the RoC regime would have not alternative but to meet them half way and that the initiative would be "supported" and rewarded in the form of Direct Flights, aid, etc.



The suggestion wasn't strictly mine.. as the "audience" of the board was mainly ex-pat..



I heard it discussed over dinner in the presence of GCs and TCs and it was a TC who had suggested it. Does the name Durduran ring any bells? !

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 13:47

jay76: "while a former government minister on an international murder warrant is allowed to stand for office. AS IF"



This is the problem with people who don't have even the most basic grasp of what is going on in Cyprus - or this BB, for that matter.



Try putting "Kenan Akin murder smuggler" into Google (a popular internet search engine, M'Lud), check the threads on this forum or read the Cyprus Mail. Being switched on becomes a way of life before you know it.

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 14:16

If Turkey want to join the EU they would have to really sort out there human rights issues...... what hope do the tcs have with a corrupt country like Turkey behind them....

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 18:51

What has happened to the TC population in Cyprus is a scandal. An exit poll of those leaving would have been useful to find out the main factor for TCs quitting the island.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 19:04

"An exit poll of those leaving would have been useful to find out the main factor for TCs quitting the island."



Is that an exit poll of those that left in the 50's or the 60's or the 70's pre 74. Or are we once again only concerned with post 74 ? How about an 'entry poll' to examine the reason for those returning ?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 19:10

MM msg 91



"if you remember this goes back to a post of mine on the "TRNC"politics msn board back in 2004.."



MM you have stated many times on many different boards the assertion that the isolations on the TC community are 'self imposed' and that ALL they need to do for them to end them is self declare a change in the status of the TRNC. I still do not think this is true or accurate. I think that if it was the case that all that is need for the EU to meet the comittments it made ot TC re ending isolations post Annan is such a self declared name/status change, then the EU would have said so, directly or indirectly and they have not. It is MUCH more complex than just a self declared name / status change.