Single Faith Schools

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 10:28

On a recent Panorama programme , Jack Straw, the Justice Secretary, expressed his concern that the only thing the Muslim community in his Blackburn constituency had in common with everyone else was that “they breathed the same air”. On the same programme, Professor Ted Cantle, who reported to the Home Office on “parallel lives” after the riots in Burnley, Oldham and Bradford in 2001, said of the town: “There is not just simply residential segregation, but there is separation in education, in social, cultural, faith, in virtually every aspect of their daily lives, employment too.” Such sectarianism is also painfully obvious in Northern Ireland and Scotland, where single-faith schools contribute to sectarian blight.

It now seems that the Government intends to combat segregation by even more religious apartheid, separating children and adults along religious, and thus often racial, lines by opening more faith schools.



Is this the way forward?

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 11:14

my feelings are that you wouldn't get a balanced education in a faith school.

i do think parents have the right to choose how their kids are educated but thats just my personal thoughts.

i do remember when one of our sons were at school and he was told to draw a design for a christmas card.

he went on to do a picture of father christmas.

he was told this was wrong as it had nothing to do with christmas/christianity/birth of christ ect.

i did go after the teacher and pull her on it, as we have always given our kids the freedom to choose their religious beliefs.

we have lots of friends who have different faiths and you can learn so much from others, thats what we wanted for our kids.

a proper religous education.

Soothsayer


Joined: 19/11/2008
Posts: 134

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 11:21

The only way forward is to accept that there is no "god". Some good movies with facts and not tales: Religulous (very good and very funny) - Zeitgeist (more dramatic and serious)

Anyhow. Probably a better timespending than going sundays to church..

We dont live in the bronze age, why do most people belive in stories/tales/miths from the bronze age? Arent we moving forward? Where are we going? Did jonas really lived 3 days in a fish? was this a tuna fish? a whale? .. come on guys...



Soothy said.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 12:04

I don't believe in religious apartheid in schools as it only serves to drive a wedge between ordinary children who if left alone would grow up without bigotry and prejudice. They only learn that from adults. If parents want to impose a particular religion on their kids they can teach them themselves or send them to classes.



I agree with everything fire starter said. Let the children find their own way and make their own minds up.



Just don't get me started on male-oriented, patriarchal organised religions, original sin and all that brainwashing clap-trap.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 12:23

WOW. Another post I agree with you Macha!

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 12:30

Stick around, kid.

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 14:47

I agree with everything fire starter said. Let the children find their own way and make their own minds up.



Absolute Tosh!



I suppose next Macha will be proposing that we leave children to decide about their health, education and good manners. We have an obligation to teach and help our children in matters pertaining to becoming mature and responsible adults, this type of rubbish is just more of the touchy feely politically correct liberalism that is sweeping the western world.



Christianity and it's basic tenets are what our society has been built on for two millenia and generally has served our world well from education,art and the strength of the family upon which societies are built. There will always be cretins and criminals who will claim to be acting in a Christian manner when declaring their wars etc to gain their own aims but that kind of misuse puts them outside of Christianity... not in it.



The politicians over the lkast few decades...



cont...

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 14:49

The politicians over the last few decades have succeeded in separating ... church(values) and state (aims) and thus succeeded in distilling morals and justice out of the political system. Having thus succeeded we now live in a culture of death where abortion is claiming the lives of millions, over 7,000,000 innocent deaths in the UK alone and over 300,000,000 world wide.Britain is now a broken society where our young people think nothing of carrying and using a knife on a daily basis, drug abuse is rampant, child abuse on the rise, politicians are corrupted, answer only to "the party" and soccer grounds have become the new place of worship.There is no respect for authority, our old people are scared to leave the house and our courts are releasing perverts because they come from broken homes were discipline was unknown. Teachers cannot teach in some schools and in many are attacked and our police are armed to the teeth patroling our towns on weekends awaiting the next drunken brawl...

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 14:50

cont..



To honour God and treat our neighbour as ourselves... two simple commandments that N01dOYEN refers to above and yet people here castigate the very tenets which have been the building block of western society for two thousand years.Well what do you know... we have been turning away from such commands for the last four decades and look where we are now.I am sure the silent majority on this board would agree with much of what I say, but too often we remain silent and allow such tosh being spouted above to be the only voice heard, not me, you mislead and you are wrong.



Regards Joseph

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 14:54

The West is fast becoming Godless... and midst all this mayhem we still have such rediculous statements of the touch feelies telling us we are ok.



WAKE UP... we are in a mess, our Banking and Financial systems are collapsing around our ears, we are threatened on all sides by anti-Christian rhetoric and our enemies are using such weaknesses to hurt us. Christian values are collapsing and society mirrors this every day on our streets.



God help us



Regards Joseph

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 15:11

We have created a vacuum in the West and fundermentalism is more than happy to fill it, and they will, using the very laws we have in place against us.



Consider Obama.



What was the first Presidential Act he signed?

Was it an act to help America combat the current global financial crisis?

No.



It was the FOCA... freedom of choice act... allowing the pro-abortion lobby to withdraw all restraints put in place previously by congress. The first action of a new president was to declare open war on the un-born, on children.



The Sanctity of Life is The paramount principle of Christianity, yet this supposed christian couldn't wait to get started on the continuance of the culture of death. One wonders just exactly what forces are in play here...

I am sure you can guess?



Enviromentalism is the new religion of these people and woe betide anyone who steps outside of this tax gathering lie... especially as Global problems are all your fault.



WAKE UP.



Regards Joseph

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 15:21

Soothsayer...



I would take you up on the silly points you make above except it is difficult to have a sensible debate with someone who lives in a fairytale world and enjoys such anonymity, and then has the audacity, though I would argue stupidity, to then go on and accuse others of living in a faireytale world... God help us!

So I will let the silent majority of billions answer you with their Faith.

If you want credibilty... then grow up



P.S.

what right do you have to kidnap Tolkien's superb work for you own humour?



Regards Joseph

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 15:26

i am wide awake.

i don't think false gods and religion makes good people.

it is society which molds its young people.

i think as a parent i should allow my kids to make their own choices.

i trust that as a parent i have guided my kids to know right from wrong and that they will carry that on through out their lives.

they never needed religion, maybe they will later in life but that is their choice.

good parenting from both parents is what kids need, not to be brainwashed.

i respect other peoples religious views but will not be told i am wrong just because i am a non believer.

denizkisi


Joined: 18/09/2008
Posts: 196

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 15:28

My two children went to single sex Catholic schools. As teenagers they didnt want to go to Church and I never forced them. As adults they dont go to church either, but they are nice, kind, well rounded adults and I am proud of them both. Was this because of their church school education, or their home upbringing? I would say a bit of both. If I had children again today, I would definitely make the same choice.

the butler


Joined: 22/06/2007
Posts: 1958

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 15:42

I am not a religious person but I do believe we need a set of commandments to live by. I agree with Joseph that the breakdown of law and order and lack of respect for your fellow men, is a real threat to life in this modern world. How did it get to be like this? I think it began in those swinging sixties when it was seen to be cool to make love not war and it has been a downward spiral ever since. I went to a single sex school, where there were no distractions from the work we were set. There were muslims and jews in my school but there was never any problems, they were not excluded because of their religeon and we all learnt from one another. We learnt tolerence of our faiths from an early age. I do not believe that faith schools are a good idea but all children should intergrate with each other in schools and only then will they grow up with understanding of each other.



The butlers wife

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 16:02

Firestarter...



"my feelings are that you wouldn't get a balanced education in a faith school".



You begin by presuming you cannot get a balanced education at a faith school,

but say this is just your feeling, which presumably means you are open minded re the subject?

So let us consider some facts...

The majority of people in the UK will attest that is is not true, in fact the opposite is true so much so that the Education Board is advising the government to increase their numbers here in the UK ... so presumably by that evidence and if said millions were to attest to that fact.... will you be changing your "feelings" to the opposite view? Some how I don't think so ... but if I am wrong... I apologise in advance.



Re your second statement



i don't think false gods and religion makes good people.



Exactly which false Gods are you referring to. Like most non believers such sweeping satements are insulting when not backed up.



cont..

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 16:04

Society alone moulds young people... incorrect... it is young people (ie within the family) that moulds society.

Society is built on families for that is the very essence of society... the family.



To be fair you say you have guided your children to the extent of understanding right from wrong, I applaud you on that because this is not

" allowing my children to make their own choices" ... quite the opposite if you are guiding them. In fact you are simply following good Christian teaching in what you do and as such those tenets have been followed for a couple of thousand years and are based on the teachings of Christ whether you like it or not...



so welcome aboard



Regards Joseph

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 16:26

joseph



You could have shortened your sermon to:



"Faith Schools are a good thing,.. as long as they're Christian."





There are over 600 'Gods' worshipped in the world, some with belief systems dating back 6-8000 years, making Christianity a bit of a young whipper snapper.



What about the majority of the worlds population who do not worship your personally chosen God?





Rob

hattikins


Joined: 17/02/2008
Posts: 2793

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 16:41

I went to a single faith school, my children didn't but I don,t think that has made a great deal of difference in our outlooks on life or our behaviour. My children were brought up according to the principles that I was brought up with, they were given choices, they were encouraged to think for themselves, but there were boundaries and there were rules that had to be followed, they were non negotiable, respect, honesty, consideration for others, all the things that in my opinion make a decent human being.

I feel that a lot of todays problems have come about because society is breaking down for a variety of reasons, many young people today have to fend for themselves, family break ups, parents working, peer pressure, the extended family no longer lives in the next street, gran is not there to fill the gap, she is probably still working to pay the mortgage off.

The Government has slowly taken over in the rearing of children and many parents have been happy to hand over , continued

hattikins


Joined: 17/02/2008
Posts: 2793

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 16:47

the responsibility gradually, even down to the discipline of the children, discipline does not mean beating your children but sadly it has now become a dirty word.

The young people of today are our future and the ordinary, everyday morals need to become a part of their lives, whether this comes from faith schools or a neutral education system matters none just so long as the lesson is taught.

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 17:10

Hattikins ...



Excellent points made, though for me I think it was Christian Ethics which were the binding thread that ran through such moral codes.



RobnJo



Hello again... I seem to recall that these same points were espoused by you under the Atheism thread and were answered as such on that tag.

Snide remarks about sermons while society is crumbling all around us serve no purpose. I know you would like to turn my answers into an argument about belief itself etc but I will not be drawn.



Hard as it is for you to accept, Western Society/civilisation was founded upon those building principles you hate so much.

Honour your Creator and treat your neighbour as yourself.

You might not want to accept either of these teachings but that does not alter the fact. Your contempt would be better aimed at those within our society who are set upon destroying it, not those who would like it strengthened by those same principles which once made it both strong and just.



Regards Joseph

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 17:23

joseph



I consider I have made valid points in the discussion, fairly and in good nature.



I am dissapointed you consider my views to suddenly be 'Snide',.. 'Argument',.. 'Hate',... 'Comtempt',...





If you want to 'Dish it out',.. you have to be prepared to 'Take it'.





p.s. 10 out of 10 though for avoiding my points and trying to blame me.





Rob

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 17:28

joseph,



Come on and admit it - you've been waiting a respectable few days before launching your evangelical crusade.



However, you won't win people over by describing their views as "absolute tosh" if they don't happen to coincide with your own, conventional patriarchal one-size-fits-all religion.



Religions, and one or two in particular, can exploit vulnerable people who for whatever reason are unable to think for themselves. Churches also spread their own particular message having copied pagan ceremonies and customs, which with respect I have a lot more time for than the preachings of some out of touch old buffer who isn't even allowed to marry.



Spiritual guidance should be voluntary and foisted upon no-one. I'll let my children make up their own minds and learn morality from their parents, rather than dragging them to Our Lady of the Worthless Miracle every Sunday.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 17:35

"I'll let my children make up their own minds and learn morality from their parents, rather than dragging them to Our Lady of the Worthless Miracle every Sunday"



Another one for the list...... )))

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 17:57

ROBnJo

Re... There are over 600 'Gods' worshipped in the world, some with belief systems dating back 6-8000 years, making Christianity a bit of a young whipper snapper.



I believe this is disingenuous and as such would direct any readers to our discourse on Atheism on an earlier tag and make up their own minds.



Meanwhile allow me to apologise, remove any remarks you find unkind and restate what I have asked you?



Why such "indifference and dislike" for the founding tenets of Western Society?



"Faith Schools are a good thing,.. as long as they're Christian."



I disagree...

I believe all bona fide faith schools are inherently good albeit ours are in the main Christian, obviously ... we live in a Christian founded state despite the liberalist drive towards the belief in a so called multicultural society rather than a truer description of multi- ethnic; so it should be no suprise I espouse such christian tenets.



I think you're struggling... again



Regards Joseph

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 18:10

cont...



Though struggling... I think you are learning fast to turn an argument to your own purpose. Picking out words I used previously to use against me , way out of context, is clever. Again I would point any readers to follow our discussion on Atheism on an earlier tag...



Strange how you continually turn the belief of billions... and they are the majority... into an argument against Faith, by trying to suggest peoples different concepts in that belief puts them at loggerheads.



We are , as it were, inside the loop, it is you who are without.

That is your choice and I can respect that, but trying to turn one against the other is the last bastion of most Atheists; who can never offer alternatives, how can they, without mentioning the very tenets they deny.



Regards Joseph.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 18:11

What bothers me the automatic assumptions society makes. Just before I was sent to a hot and dusty place I was given a set of dog tags and because I couldn't give them a religion they put down "atheist", which I'm not and which was annoying.



The other thing that gets my goat several times a day is when the witness in court takes the stand and is told: "Put up your right hand and say after me 'I swear by Almighty God..." Only once have I heard a judge properly ask a witness: "Will you take the oath?" It's a scandal that people who are already nervous as hell don't get told they can "affirm" their evidence will be the truth etc.



I'm going to have a chat with our Humanist friends...

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 18:16

Macha...



Would be a fair argument if it weren't for the facts.

Which part of "love your neighbour as yourself" do you disagree with.



Re "Come on and admit it - you've been waiting a respectable few days before launching your evangelical crusade".



Correct me if I am wrong but this a phrase continually aimed at your good self on this board, please do not try to offload it on me....



You own it ... you keep it



Regards Joseph

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 18:16

joseph



You're at it again!



"indifference and dislike"??? Where did they come from?



Indifference would mean I wouldn't post,.. Dislike? I am merely questioning!



Are you opposed to 'multi-ethnic' societies then?



I presume you know NC is predominantly Muslim.



On that point, I have had numerous discussions with Muslim folk there and always found them to be eager to discuss different religious views, including atheism, without the slightest hint of intolerance, but with respect and a willingness to understand.



It's them pesky Christians who get tetchy and throw their toys out of the pram!





Rob

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 18:18

Librarians: Annoy Christians by putting the Holy Bible in the "Fiction" section where, joking apart, it actually belongs.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 18:21

Macha. The old ones are the best eh? )

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 18:24

Macha...



I maybe wrong but re taking an oath... it is based on the age old christian belief/tradition that a person would think twice before perjuring their very soul with lies in a court of law.



Sir Thomas More, him of Henry V111 fame , once said that when a man swore on his soul it was like clasping sand in his hands and if that sand were to be loosed by lies, what chance the man to collect it all together again.



Great Stuff eh



Times, however are moving on and those personal choices you refer to are becoming the norm in some countries.



Regards Joseph

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 18:24

joseph

are you speaking of that same education board that introduced all those s.a.t's tests for kids and put both teachers and kids under pressure?

the same system that allows talented kids to be bullied?

what you learn at school are basics, its what you learn from life that matters.

kids don't just learn from families but everything around them, good and bad.

my two son have spent time with our family members who include, a muslim, two hindus and some christains in belief, along with hubby and i who are non believers.

i think they have a better religious education than most young men.

they grew up respecting religion but neither went to a single sex or faith school.

if you are a well balanced family, with an open mind thats all kids need to guide them.

thats not forcing them into religious education but guiding them through out their younger years.

i am interested in how many kids you have and how old they are?

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 18:42

ROBnJo



So if you hold the Christian tenets of our founding fathers here in the Uk to be fair and just... why knock them or, are you in support, or just ambivalent?



Re am I opposed to multi ethnic etc... read my reply slowly... I state clearly I am against being told by the political elite that I am living in a multicultural society when in fact I believe we are living in a multi ethnic one.

Which can only enhance our society.



I respect all religious beliefs and I defend people's rights to hold them.

Where I disagree with your theses re Atheism is your need to create a God in order to decry Him and your continual posts claiming such diversity undermines such belief. It is illogical.



Not wanting to drag up old posts.. but as I pointed out to you in the Atheism tag... religion is a matter of philosophy, a belief in God one of metaphysics.

Difficult as these disciplines are... they are worth studying



Regards Joseph

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 18:56

Firestarter



I have three children, 29,27 and 19 respectively.

And you?



You must understand what I am saying here. When I talk about Christian Tenets you will find such tenets are held by the same religions as you talk about above. In my instance because I was brought up in a mainly christian country.I am not arguing about whose religion you should follow, or not, whose is better etc... but rather about the lack today of those shared principles.



I believe for example my own church leaders have been far too silent about the state of our country at this time. They are too busy enjoying the secularism that is ravishing most faiths at this time while innocent people suffer, instead of shouting from the rooftops and crying enough is enough. But poor priests or bishops in whatever faith do not make the principles wrong, just them.



Regards Joseph

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 19:01

brutus

i can relate to this.

i did some teacher training with the primary age kids in the uk.

as a p.e. teacher this is very noticable with a lot of the asian girls.

they hate to go swimming and are constantly self concious, they lack the will to join in group games, which in turn alienates them from the other kids.

this self conciousness is not good for them and it worries me how they will ever overcome it as they grow up.

i don't consider that well balanced as an upbringing.

on the plus side at least their families thought that a mixed non religious school was best for them.

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 19:24

Firestarter



You asked:" i am interested in how many kids you have and how old they are"



I answered, but you never explained your interest



NoIDoyen



Re "Our Lady of the Worthless Miracle" though said in jest... this is uncalled for

and both Christian and Muslim believers would find this distasteful and I am absolutley sure you would make no such jest against Islam direct.



However... no offence taken



Regards Joseph

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 20:02

hi joseph

we have two sons, one is 23 and the other 17 years.



my muslim friends have a good way of looking at it.

they always say we have different religions but we share the same god.

even though i am a non beliver i find this touching as even though christianity and islam are different religions and practiced differently, they accept god is shared.



when my dad was cremated we had two muslims there at the service, they had never experienced a cremation before, but both commented on how nicely it was done.

when a friends sister died i went to the funneral, even though they are muslims i was welcome along and yes i wore my head scalf.

where i am coming from is i just dont feel that kids brought up a religious schools benefit so much from the varied religious experiences and education regarding other religions.

i respect others religious beliefs and if i am invited to any religious event, i act accordingly.

Soothsayer


Joined: 19/11/2008
Posts: 134

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 20:15

joseph, am I the only one who kidnapps names? who cares? who cares about kidnapping a virgin as mother? was it only jesus? do you have any clue of history? if yes, you could answer yourself that Horus started all this 3000 years before jesus crist... There are 100s of gods or sons of god born on the 25 december from a virgin mother.. And you stand up and tell people you believe? joseph? sorry, this is against science, against history and against all logic argumentation..



Humanity will only surviev if we all agree that there is no god!! Learn this and you will see much more light than in your churches or faith or whatever.. Do you realy know what christianity is all about? did you read it? do you believe all of it.. come on.. This is like a satire.. any how.. god bless uu

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 20:59

Hi Firstarter,nice to hear,you have every right to be proud of your boys.



And I sorry to hear of your fathers' passing...rip.



But as I stated earlier you gave your children guidance when little, you taught them right from wrong, what was a good thing etc

You did not allow them to make their own decisions at such a young and impressionable age... I applaud that... my point was (here at home) we are losing that kind of responsibilty once shown by parents, I am sure you agree that that is self evident... and it is on such principles that we as a society make progress. Those principles were based on the simple tenet of loving your neighbour as you would yourself, which along with the Sanctity of Life are the guiding tenets of Christianity... and with most faiths, as you rightly say.



The evidence in the UK points heavily to the fact the Faith schools are giving our young children both a better education and better discipline... hence I applaud and do not knock.



Regards Joseph

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 21:15

Soothsayer...



What can I say but ... oh dear!



From a world population of close to 7billion people... over 6.6 billion believe.



Soothsayer I am just one them.



Re ...this is against science, against history and against all logic argumentation.. ?



Science is now proposing that we are the result of creative design.



It is History that gave us such beliefs,so it cannot be against itself.



Logic... a theory or discipline brought about and so studied by the ancient fathers...(In Europe Classical Greece)... and used to explain their belief and study in: mathematics, the arts, philosophy and theology.



So your point is illogical.



Regards Joseph

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 21:24

have faith in your god , whoever he may be ////

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 21:26

Well guys and girls I have to log off ... but I have enjoyed the debate...



Take care... at least you have some hot weather over the horizon it's getting colder back here.



God Bless



Joseph

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 1487

Message Posted:
07/03/2009 00:22

Have a look at this, some interesting concepts. Ignore the rude comedy excerpt at the beginning and cut straight to the reasoning behind the film.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNkthC-yWYU&feature=related



Lem

MsGarnet


Joined: 04/01/2009
Posts: 989

Message Posted:
07/03/2009 20:41

Faith schools are always divisive, they have to be - by the very fact they peddle one dogma, and profess it is superior to all others. When did a child last die in a fight about atheists? NEVER. When did a child last die, in a fight because of other religions? probably about five minutes ago. I sent my daughter to a multi-Faith school, as I wanted her to be open-minded, be exposed to as many ideologies and paradigms as possible, so as she matured, she would make an informed decision about whether she 'believed' or not, and if she believed, in what and whom she believed in. I am sick to death of the PC world England has become, run by wimps, that by their very thoughts, words and deeds, play right into the hands of extremists who have no agenda but control control control...........pathetic.

keithcaley



Joined: 13/06/2008
Posts: 2521

Message Posted:
07/03/2009 21:58

I went to a single sex, Catholic school - the local Marist College (it was just at the end of the street!).

My parents and I were nominally Methodist - well, that's where they sent me to Sunday school...

I think the school had to have 50% non-Catholics as pupils in order to qualify for 'Government Money' - although this was only my perception as a 12 year old - I could be wrong!

We seperated from the Catholics only for Religious Education, when a non-Catholic teacher would take the class,otherwise classes were assembled on the basis of age/ability with no regard to religion.

Very infrequently, the teacher assigned to us for RE might be sick, or whatever, and a junior priest would take our RE class.

Now that was FUN! - the poor sod would bend over backwards to be non-denominational, while we little B@....ds would torment him with provocative questions that we knew darn well he was forbidden to answer in terms of Catholic Dogma.

Divisive? No.

We all learnt a lot about each other..

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
07/03/2009 21:59

Hi Ms..



I agree with a lot of your sentiments ... but just to put things in perspective:



Encyclopedia of Wars by Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod

The history of human warfare goes back to the beginning of recorded history (and, no doubt, well before that). A recent comprehensive compilation of the history of human warfare, Encyclopedia of Wars by Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod documents 1763 wars, of which 123 have been classified to involve a religious conflict. So, what atheists have considered to be "most" really amounts to less than 7% of all wars.



The history of human warfare shows that less than 7% of all wars have religious causes. If atheists are correct, the most religious industrial nation, the United States of America, should be involved in more religious wars than any other country. However, only the "War on Terror," among all 17 American wars, involves a religious component.



But I do accept your general point that all people need to ...



cont...

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
07/03/2009 22:00

cont...



But I do accept your general point that all people need to learn to live together as one, whatever Faith they espouse to, or otherwise.

My defence of this tag was simply from my own and friends' experiences and the fact that their popularity are on the increase as are their results.

This may well be because of dress code and discipline,or both,I don't know. But again for the moment we have freedom of choice so we can choose either.



Being a Christian I would hope you would also accept that I cannot stand by when my beliefs and those of others are smeared.

The current flavour of the decade is to attack anything that is Christian and Christianity is certainly being attacked on all fronts

particularly in the West/America, whether it be by far left liberalism or such rubbish as Zeitgeist.



Your mention of children is particularly poignant when it is the Christian churches who alone in the West cry out against the awesome war

continually being waged on the unborn. The s

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
07/03/2009 22:02

cont...



Your mention of children is particularly poignant when it is the Christian churches who alone in the West cry out against the awesome war

continually being waged on the unborn. The silence here at home and America is deafening.



Consider the figures above. 300,000,000 million to date.



As I have mentioned earlier, there is a now a new reiligion on the rise, enviromentalism, and woe betide you, or me, if we dare question the truth of the science of this global warming tax gathering lie?



As I say, I agree with you wholeheartedly, let tolerance be the motto, for all.



Regards Joseph

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
07/03/2009 22:15

Hi Keithcaley



Good story .. very funny... Helps bring a smile



Regards Joseph

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
07/03/2009 22:41

as an irish catholic i attended mainly convent schools.It was very hard in those years and never wanted to impose my religious believes on my children. however they all went to convents for their young years, although mixed and in these convents thee were many cultures. They all learnt and had many friends from diffferent faiths. My kids had a choice they know how much my faith means to me but whilst go to mass I never ever made hem come unless they wanted to. To my surprise my oldest daughter had beeen going to mass anf hadvher wedding at the catholic catherdal in cardff. she now has 3 childre nwho all go to a convent again with multi races. We cannot dictate as you all say they will find thier way.For me I will remain true even though im ex communicated but i guess its the irish roots. We were so scared of our priest and the nuns its instiled in us. But its al up to my kids hiow they want thier kids to be taught xxxxxxx

MsGarnet


Joined: 04/01/2009
Posts: 989

Message Posted:
07/03/2009 22:44

Joseph



Whilst I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion, and we must all agree to disagree if we don't concur, your segue regarding abortion is something that always angers me, unless you can tell me that everyone who is against abortion puts their money where their mouth is, and adopts an unwanted child? Doesn't happen that often, I'll wager. Women don't in general have an abortion lightly, emotionally it is devastating, but termination is carried out for a plethora of reasons, many NOT because of casual sex, but valid, legitimate reasons, such as not wishing to bring a life on this earth that will live a short time in agony; whose life condition is terminal from day one, and whose care will detract detrimentally from giving attention to one's partner and other siblings. Back to Faith. It is disingenuous to quote from a book written by two Faith driven authors, as to how many people have died in 'Religious Wars'. both Blair and Bush, two mendacious leaders, hid behind

MsGarnet


Joined: 04/01/2009
Posts: 989

Message Posted:
07/03/2009 22:48

their Faith as a reason for destroying Iraq - millions of lives (in fact and by extension, victims families). They both told the world "God" told them to invade, neither were man enough to take responsibility for their actions. It is a historical fact that Christianity is responsible for two thousand years of intellectual oppression, and millions of lost human lives. From crusades to witchburnings, from the Inquisition to Galileo's forced recantation of his theories, Christians have ruled with fear and violence, systematically destroying all new thought and ideas that threaten their power. Barring almost 2000 years of intellectual/physical oppression, mankind would have put a man on the moon 500 years ago. Imagine the technology we could have today, bio-engineered crops feeding the world's hungry, medical technology eradicating disease forever, weather control preventing drought and natural disaster, alternative fuels that don't pollute.

MsGarnet


Joined: 04/01/2009
Posts: 989

Message Posted:
07/03/2009 22:51

But the Church stamped out all science (truth) that threatened the dogma (mythology) which gives Church its power. God supposedly punishes us all for the sins of one woman, and then religion deprives us of the science we need to prevent the plague, famine, and catastrophes that God supposedly causes and allows.

spider


Joined: 03/01/2009
Posts: 5527

Message Posted:
07/03/2009 22:58

faith is a very personal thing and should never be imposed upon anyone..i feel i can go into any church,and talk with myself,to whom,or whatever.light a candle.and leave.

dont get me wrong i do not do this all the time either.

we all have choices..

have never as yet been to a (black clappy hand churchas yet) as i have never been past one..when all are at it...but i would you know what ...just creep in..





spider.x

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 1487

Message Posted:
07/03/2009 23:05

I'd also like to contribute.



Religion in the UK has contributed to millions of boring useless, usually wet Sundays when everything was shut, there was nothing to do, if you went out everybody had to wear their Sunday best, the telly was crap, no wonder mum and dad went back to bed after lunch!



Those Christians have a lot to answer for, countless lives have been blighted by conformist boredom, childhood's destroyed, wage earners weekends cut short by a day of total useless grey boredom whilst fat conceited priests strutted their stuff.



The Romans had the right idea, chuck the buggers to the lions, no Devine intervention there, I notice.



Those who cursed us with the UK Sunday, you have a lot to answer for!



There will be a day of reckoning and it won't be on a Sunday, mate.



Any good at lion taming? No? Oh well, just say your prayers.



Lem

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 00:06

Hi MsGarnet...



Many excellent points and so many I agree with.

EG Re war etc and those who would wage war in the name of Faith etc...

Be aware...when Blair asked to be accepted into the Church many catholics were outspoken in our objection + remain so until such time as he reneges on many of his policies/beliefs etc he maintains. I won't bore you with the theological objections we also have.



Even so... I agree... but as I say above, for me this puts them outside the church... not in. I suppose I could now go on and list page after page of the wondrous things re Christianity from its art, science, mathematics, sculpture ad infinitum, but that would put me in the very trap that I think both of us are trying to avoid because I think we are trying to find a common ground to agree to disagree and as friends move forward positively etc.



The greatest stumbling block for me is still the culture of death aka abortion.

You give examples from economic ...



cont..

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 00:07

The greatest stumbling block for me is still the culture of death aka abortion.

You give examples from economic to health but... 300,000,000 million???

7,000,000 in the Uk alone



The sanctity of Life remains a central and paramount teaching within Christianity and most major religions.

There is no one so innocent or voiceless than the unborn child and yet from whales to foxes people will campaign

for their protection... and as I say... now it is the enviroment. I agree about how traumatic this has proven for so many women.

I was watching a program on tv not so long ago where this very issue was being discusssed and a lady was talking about the child she had aborted.

She said she dreamed about that child everyday since and if she had had the help and advice she needed beforehand she would have gone to term

It had devasted her life.I could have cried I felt so sorry and I am sure you like me would have wished we could have made everything right for her.

One of millions I know

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 00:08

cont...



One of millions I know but how many others I wonder?



Perhaps if we spent some of the billions we are spending now, how many could/would be saved. What price a child.

You say it angers you, sorry for that, for myself it simply deeply saddens me.



But you make fair points for me to ponder.



Regards Joseph

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 00:20

joseph my dear friend will we ever know. i am a catholic true and true but that does not make me a bad person. I have been to many schools in different countries whereby we had to understansd the difffeence.I understand all your arguments re abortion ect but speak to a woman who has had one. if the reason is money or partener does not want her or the baby what choice whould she have. its a very tough call xxxxx

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 1487

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 00:24

Yeah great.



So many aborted lifes.



But what about the millions of people's lifes who were blighted by your years of bloody awful boring UK Sundays?



You have a lot to answer for as a Christian.



This subject is very important to all of us who grew up through the years when you decided how we lived.



Lem

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 00:31

hiya lem i guess you are right. We probably didnt consider anything but we live with the consquenes xxxxxxx

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 00:34

Hi Lilli



It is very tough I know ... even discussing this on here is tough ... but I will continue to speak for both mother and child and campaign for the help that both need.



Lilli, who on earth called you a bad person, you are most definately not...

if I have given you this impression I apologise... not like Blair I could apologise.

but a real... I apologise



Regards Joseph

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 1487

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 00:52

Lilli



Hugs and kisses!



Stay cool, see you soon.



Lem

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 00:52

Lem...



Re: Yeah great. So many aborted lifes.

That is what I find sad, but then maybe thats just me.



Re:

But what about the millions of people's lifes who were blighted by your years of bloody awful boring UK Sundays?



I didn't raise you... so this is a question you need to put to those who did

I had absolutely nothing at all to do with it, as you well know



Regards Joseph

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 1487

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 01:30

My dear Joseph



You are of an age as I am, that in our day, UK Sundays were a grim day of religious observance with nothing else allowed. Wales was worse, it was shut.



All other human activities or enjoyment were not tolerated. Enshinred in law even, until recently repealed.



You signed up to this suspension of disbelief, you cannot shrug off responsibility by putting the ghastly British Sundays on my parents.



So, coming clean, as a rational human being, you know in your darkest thoughts this a load of old twaddle. Why put the rest of us through it?



Coming to terms with the reality is a release.



Faith is very stressful in that you are continually trying to explain real events against a belief structure based on myth. Religious believers do have a higher risk of depression, stress, anxiety, fervour, suicide etc in trying to justify their belief in the modern world.



Peace and love, brother Joseph. Your heart's in the right place, you'll get there one day.



L

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 01:47

Hi Lem..



Re

Peace and love, brother Joseph. Your heart's in the right place, you'll get there one day



Promise though who ever gets there first opens the back door for the other



Regards Joseph

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 13:02

i approve of abortion.

the first reason would be for medical reasons as i feel it is wrong to bring a severly diabled child into this world and prolong their suffering and the poor quality of life they would have.

the other is that why should a young girl who got caught out ruin the rest of her life?

like many would end up being a single parent on a giro living in a council house.

what sort of life is that for anyone?

i know lots of people would argue that we have no right to play god, but i argue that would god want so many people to suffer?

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 16:41

I disagree because it is against all moral natural law.



Re the disabled... I hope you are not implying disabled people cannot have fulfilling lives as I believe they would strongly disagree with you.



The problem with this argument Firestarter is where do you stop, not begin?



I have a terror that once the war on the unborn has become the norm then it will be the elderly targeted next, then the disabled and where will it stop.

Hitler and Stalin both espoused these views.



As Lubac pointed out in his masterley work:"Le Drame de l'humanisme athée"... The Drama of Atheistic Humanism

Todays Atheism is not the atheism of skeptical individuals. It is atheistic humanism -- atheism with a developed ideology and a program for remaking the world.. At the heart of the darkness inside the great mid-20th century tyrannies [of] communism, fascism, Nazism, is discerned the lethal effects of the marriage between modern technology and the ideas borne by atheistic humanism.



Joseph

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 16:43

cont...



And so he concluded:



"It is not true, as is sometimes said, that man cannot organize the world without God. What is true is that, without God, he can only organize it against man." That is what the tyrannies of the mid-20th century had proven -- ultramundane humanism is inevitably inhuman humanism. And inhuman humanism cannot neither sustain nor defend the democratic project. It can only undermine it or attack it.



I recommend it, you will find it an insightful work.



Regards Joseph

keithcaley



Joined: 13/06/2008
Posts: 2521

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 22:36

firestarter,

Would You Consider Abortion in These Four Situations?

Issue Date: January/February 19991. There is a preacher and wife who are very, very poor. They already have 14 kids. Now she finds out she is pregnant with her 15th. They are living in tremendous poverty. Considering their poverty and the excessive world population, would you consider recommending abortion?

2. The father is sick with sniffles, the mother has TB. They have 4 children. The first is blind, the second is dead. The third is deaf and the fourth has TB. The mother finds she is pregnant again. Given the extreme situation, would you recommend abortion?

3. A man raped a 13 year old black girl and she got pregnant. If you were her parents, would you consider recommending abortion?

4. A teenage girl is pregnant. She is not married. Her fiancee is not the father of the baby, and he is very upset. Would you recommend an abortion?

If you have answered “yes” to any of these situations:

Cont'd...

keithcaley



Joined: 13/06/2008
Posts: 2521

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 22:37

If you have answered “yes” to any of these situations:



In the first case you would have killed John Wesley, one of the great evangelists of the 19th century.



In the second case, you would have killed Beethoven.



In the third case you would have killed Ethel Waters, the great black gospel singer.



In the fourth case you would have recommended the murder of Jesus Christ.

keithcaley



Joined: 13/06/2008
Posts: 2521

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 22:47

I should say that I posted the previous comments only to play 'Devil's Advocate' - not because I seriously believe that they make a worthwhile point.

As a matter of fact, I think that Joseph - with all due respect - is slightly 'over the top' when it comes to prostletizing.

My exposure to multiple religions over the years has led me to believe that although followers of each all think that they are the 'one and only true religion', in fact, none of them are.

However, everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, and we shouldn't ctiticise or berate anyone who's belief doesn't happen to agree with our own.

Keith.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 15:57

i think that it is personal choice.

i have noticed that both men were upset by my post.

why is it men find it so wrong, i guess they like to control women?

after all you would never find yourself in the situation of having an unwanted pregnancy.

i think women should have the right to choose without pressure from anyone.



joseph

why is it that the doctors allow late abortion for women who have severly disabled babies due?

i guess they don't agree with you that those babies would have a decent quality of life.

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 16:51

Firestarter, you always find some extreme example in order to make an unnatural point against natural moral law.



I am no doctor, and believe in leaving a Doctor to make the right decisions when faced withn the awful dilemma of health of mother and child. Doctors are under enough pressure, let their judgement be medical under their solemn oath of "first do no harm"



Can't you understand... I am defending/promoting a culture where the principle is : all life is sacred, not who gets to choose which is and which isn't. Until our times this principle had been held by most civilisations throughout the history of mankind.



As I said above, you are quite happy to state where it starts... not ends.



Re controlling women... again the opposite... they are the providers if you will of the very life we hold sacred. Telling them they have the right to kill their child is empowering ? I think you denigrate them, not empower.



Lastly as before, disabled lives are

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 16:54

cont...



Lastly as before, disabled lives are not wasted lives but rather part of the wonder of life.

I often think those who are disabled could teach us a thing or two... so stop denigrating them.



Re" like many would end up being a single parent on a giro living in a council house. what sort of life is that for anyone?



Hard as you might find it to believe these people deserve our help not our scorn What right have you to suggest their lives are not worth living because they cannot afford the material things you seem to hold as more important because if this is so...



read Keithcaleys wonderful post above... it says a lot.



Regards Joseph

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 17:03

joseph



So where does that leave Jehovas Witnesses, who consider themselves strict adherants to the Christian Faith?



They put their beliefs way above the sanctity of life, especially with regard to the use of blood during births, operations, accidents etc.



They would rather see a baby or loved one die than sway from their 'belief'.





What exactly is 'A Christian' ?





Rob

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 17:03

Keith message 75. Great post.

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 17:13

Robnjo as usual nice try and as usual I will not be drawn.



We are talking about natural moral law and the sanctity of life.

If I was an expert on J/W's I would answer... but as ever you want to pick through single points and Christian tenets in order to turn one against the other.



I defend the unborn, I defend the disabled and the poorer people as F/S talked of above. So is your post defending such or not?

Apologies here... but I cannot tell?



Regards Joseph

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 17:37

joseph



If you are an advocate of 'Natural moral law', you will know that nature is very good at deciding which life is worth saving and which life isn't.



Nature does that without any recourse to emotional input.



Very successfully for the overall survival of the planet.

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 17:52

Robnjo



Notice you still haven't answered the question?



Try to understand the difference of nature and natural moral law, you are a little confused here.



However to expound upon your point... so why are we interfering to the tune of 300,000,000 million "interfered" abortions worldwide to date, if we were to agree on this, the majority (not all) of such lives would have come to fruition?



Good point about nature, have you noticed the fierceness with which an animal will protect its pregnant partner and it's young .There will ofcourse be extreme exemptions eg a male lion on heat etc but again I hope you will not nick pick and take your/my point as it is meant



Have we found common ground here?



Regards Joseph

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 18:03

One of the main problems with Single Faith Schools is that they have no option but to be indoctrinational within their own faith.



My children went to RC Primary & Secondary schools. We had the choice of CofE or more secular schools, but chose RC purely because the schools were achieving the best local ratings and results.



My children did find problems with the conflicts between science and RE.

The RE teachers, as with all the teachers, were RC and would say that 'Some religions think 'X', but the Catholic faith clearly shows 'Y'. That was the limit of interfaith understanding.



Archeology field trips were a real problem when they were told by another teacher that the Universe was created by God in 7 days.



All Governers, PT groups, teachers, staff even the groundsmen and janitors were all Catholic.

The only Charity ever promoted was CAFOD.



My children got a good education, but it turned them against religious belief.





The same as me from my CofE education.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 18:08

joseph

i don't need lessons on morals from you thanks.

especially with yours,lol.

you clearly don't know me or anything about me so stop guessing,

as daddy use to say the devil looks after his own.

(daddy who was disabled for many year before dying of tb.)

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 18:29

Firestarter



As you say on another tag:

why is it you are having trouble taking part in a fair debate?



You continually throw out questions but never answer in detail any points raised

but continue with semantics and cliches...

Again read Keithcaleys wonderful post.



Re : the devil looks after his own... your words not mine



For me I think this subject has become exhausted and is in danger of becoming a personal slanging match as warned about on many another tag.

I will continue to defend the unborn etc



So God Bless all...



Regards Joseph

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 18:36

joseph



I fear you have allowed yourself to stray from the chosen path.







This discussion is about single faith schools, not the unborn.





Rob

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 23:46

joseph: "Promise though who ever gets there first opens the back door for the other."



Are we talking priests and choirboys here?

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
10/03/2009 00:05

Macha



Not worthy of comment.



Joseph

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
10/03/2009 12:30

joseph

i respond to your question but you seem to ignore my replies and just keep on preaching.

give it a rest..... your words not mine.

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
10/03/2009 13:12

Apologies Firestarter I was not aware you had asked yet another question.



Throughtout this discussion I have tried to answer all questions but in my defence of the unborn and the innocent it is sometimes difficult when there are three or four of you coming at me at the same time



Perhaps you would like to point it out again and I will answer before once again repeating I believe this tag is exhausted.



P.S.if your question comes after the one put to you by Keithcaley's wonderful post on msg 73 then perhaps, out of good manners, you should answer him first, after all you would not want us to think you do not answer questions in order to carry on preaching your belief in the culture of death?



Regards Joseph

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
10/03/2009 13:39

cont...



I have gone back and scanned all the posts on this tag and cannot find any words of mine saying "give it rest" so please refrain from putting this charge.



I did however note that on two or three occasions earlier I had put this question following this paragraph... ( to show the context)



Can't you understand... I am defending/promoting a culture where the principle is : all life is sacred, not who gets to choose which is and which isn't. Until our times this principle had been held by most civilisations throughout the history of mankind.



(Question)

As I said above, you are quite happy to state where it starts... not ends.



Never answered?



So perhaps after you have answered msg 73 you can answer this and then presumably it will be my turn?



Unless you agree with me that this tag has become exhausted, we agree to disagree and leave it there



Regards Joseph

keithcaley



Joined: 13/06/2008
Posts: 2521

Message Posted:
10/03/2009 13:39

Msg 91,

I made it clear in msg 75 that I only posted msgs 73 & 74 to play Devil's Advocate - i.e. to point out that there MAY be more to think of that the Mother's UNQUESTIONABLE RIGHT (my opinion) to do what she feels to be right with her own body and future.

I also made it clear (and here I will paraphrase, as I was obviously not blunt enough tha first time...) that I thought you were banging on far too much about what you thought from the viewpoint of your Religion, and that anyone as fanatical as you about being right, and not seeing anyone else's point of view is almost ALWAYS WRONG.

You are entitled to your beliefs, but I doubt that you will change anyone else's belief system very much by harping on about it - people will just get sick of reading it, and skip your posts!

I am relieved that I have never had to make any decision like this myself, and that from my point it's all hypothetical!

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
10/03/2009 13:59

thank you for your post keithcaley

i'm sorry if you or joseph though i was rude not replying to you but i was other wise engaged so to speak.

i have never had to make that choice but i do have friends that have and have seen the stress something like this puts on people.

i don't think anyone would take the decition lightly, but i do believe it is about the right to choose.

the same as whether you would or would not put your kids into a faith school.



regards 'she devil' lol.

Soothsayer


Joined: 19/11/2008
Posts: 134

Message Posted:
10/03/2009 14:00

it seem like most people here on this thread are not real believers.. well educated, good arguments, good points. anyhow..

In the USA we count 34 000 differrent churches with own ideas how to believe.

95% of genetical researchers are so called atheists. Ower 2500 people living today and claiming they are Jesus Christ reborn. One of them even has 100 000s followers..

Sorry guys, this is to much. If you gonna belive, do it: But stop the missionary things, stop pretending to know better than others.. This is the fight against the compelte loss of religion. The fear that people will one day understand and agree: THERE IS NO GOD! Unfortunatelly there are many people which are STILL to scared to see the truth.. One day the SUN will shine for you, not GOD.

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
10/03/2009 14:06

Hi Keithcaley,



Apologies if I misread your post re playing devils advocate.

However you did ask questions which were never answered and I would have thought it therefore fair for me to re-iterate the question.



As I say above I have tried to defend a principle held by ALL faiths and I suppose in that respect I made a mistake in answering a direct question as to which faith I belonged to when asked.



Silly me I am fast learning why so many choose anonymity on this forum and

perhaps I should have remained silent on that point



So having been well admonished I will retire as I have tried to before and leave this tag and answer no more questions put to me on this matter.



Regards... to all... Joseph

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
10/03/2009 14:11

"Here Endeth the Sermon".







Hopefully!

Soothsayer


Joined: 19/11/2008
Posts: 134

Message Posted:
10/03/2009 14:35

bye bye.. its always the same.. when arguments come to short.. just go. Anyhow.. One day you will all "belive"

As this thread is over now, we all have plenty time, so watch this movies: RELIGOLOUS and ZEITGEIST. Have fun.

roey65


Joined: 07/01/2009
Posts: 9

Message Posted:
10/03/2009 15:11

Iwent to the hospital with my wife the other day , she is 3 months pregant and as i was sitting there looking at the scan of my new child i couldn't help but think why anyone does not believe in God . I know that there is a lot of evil in the world and misery but all you have to do is open your eyes to the wonders of creation and all the marvels of nature . Ithink we worry to much about possesions and z list celebrities that we have lost our way

Soothsayer


Joined: 19/11/2008
Posts: 134

Message Posted:
10/03/2009 15:18

what does the scan has to do with god? Watch the movies, with your wife!

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
10/03/2009 15:31

roey65



Surely the scan is scientific proof of the success of Evolution?



Whatever you think, enjoy the experience, keep the photo and I hope all goes well.



It won't be long until you are having to decide on Schools!



Rob

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
10/03/2009 15:42

roey65

congratulation to you and your wife on your expected arrival.

i don't think i have lost my way because of my views, i think i have seen to much happen.

i see the wonders of creation and the marvels of nature but it still will never change the facts for me.

its not that i am not open to religion, but i take it in more of a educational way rather than needing to find something.

for instance i have read the quran because lots of my friends and neighbours are muslim and it gives me a better understanding of them and islam as a whole.

i own a head scarf and partisipate when asked because i respect my friends and their religion, but it is not mine.

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
10/03/2009 15:51

fs



A bit cheeky I know, but would Muslim women remove their headscarves if requested in your home, either in NC or UK?



Rob

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
10/03/2009 15:52

Roey65. Have you thought about single faith schools for you child?

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
10/03/2009 16:13

hi robnjo

all my muslim friends and family only wear the scarf for religious purposes.

not on a daily basis.

i did meet a lady last year at a bbq who was a british muslim and head scarf wearer.

she was at her close friends home and still wearing it, not that it bothers me.

we were chatting about the way she is treated in the uk for wearing it, and how people judge her, it was a very interesting chat.

Soothsayer


Joined: 19/11/2008
Posts: 134

Message Posted:
10/03/2009 16:48

http://www.atheistbus.org.uk/

we are getting a voice!!!!

roey65


Joined: 07/01/2009
Posts: 9

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 15:45

replying to message 102 . Thank you for your good wishes , i suppose that is where faith comes into the equation you either have it or you don,t , that has always puzzled me why some people don't get it , is it because they don't recognise it or are they running away from it .

To message 100 if you had some sort of faith then you would understand what i am talking about , i do not mean that as criticism only as an observation

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 1487

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 23:22

Message 99



Are you saying the scan revealed the child to be God's, a new Messiah?



Good grief, this is wonderful news, there we all were thinking you were the father and all the time it was Devine intervention!



Halleluyah! It all makes sense now. The world is going to end soon.



All I can add is, good, about time, dreadful place, ghastly people. What idiot invented this shambles? Ought to have some creation lessons before they try again.



Lem

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
12/03/2009 04:18

Hi Roey65,



Thanks for sharing a very personal moment, congratulations



God bless you and your family.



Regards Joseph

Soothsayer


Joined: 19/11/2008
Posts: 134

Message Posted:
12/03/2009 12:19

We already have over 3000 so called jesus christ reborns.. just search the net.. the end is coming sooonnnn! Acctually the year 2006 fail to be the end.. anyhow, the bible tells us when end is near.. They know better. As they always did. As they always will. I pray to "GOD" to give you all a sign, the sign that hes not in.

Believe me or not. There is no God. There is life, there is you, there is me, there are plants, animals, fire, water, earth, air.. yes, all that is real. But not the so called God. Hes not real. They are playing games on you. Wake up guys. You can do it. All your prayers, who did answer them? NO ONE! You never get an answer.. you keep on paying church taxes, christ clubs bla bla.. Buying bibles, this is an huge ripping off, killing industry. The belief to GOD will kill You all.

Soothsayer


Joined: 19/11/2008
Posts: 134

Message Posted:
12/03/2009 12:55

The Means is the End:

We intend to restore the fundamental necessities and environmental awareness of the species through the advocation of the most current understandings of who and what we truly are, coupled with how science, nature and technology (rather than religion, politics and money) hold the keys to our personal growth, not only as individual human beings, but as a civilization, both structurally and spiritually. The central insights of this awareness is the recognition of the Emergent and Symbiotic elements of natural law and how aligning with these understandings as the bedrock of our personal and social institutions, life on earth can and will flourish into a system which will continuously grow in a positive way, where negative social consequences, such as social stratification, war, biases, elitism and criminal activity will be constantly reduced and, idealistically, eventually become nonexistent within the spectrum of human behavior itself.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
12/03/2009 12:58

The bottom line is that in order to change things for the better fundamentally, you must begin to address root causes.

Soothsayer


Joined: 19/11/2008
Posts: 134

Message Posted:
12/03/2009 12:58

This possibility is, of course, very difficult for most humans to consider, for we have been conditioned by society to think that crime, corruption and dishonesty is "the way it is" and that there will always be people who want to abuse, hurt and take advantage of others.

Religion is the largest promoter of this propaganda, for the "us and them" or "good and evil" mentality promotes this false assumption.

The reality is that we live in a society that produces Scarcity.

The consequence of this scarcity is that human beings must behave in self preserving ways, even if it means they have to cheat and steal in order to get what they want. Our research has concluded that Scarcity is one of the most fundamental causes of aberrant human behavior, while also leading to complex forms of neurosis in other ways.

Soothsayer


Joined: 19/11/2008
Posts: 134

Message Posted:
12/03/2009 13:07

We must begin to transition out of these oppressive ideals and move towards a system which is "designed" to support human beings... not force them to fight in order to survive.

As we realize that knowledge and hence our institutions are always evolving, we see that any belief system which claims to "know" anything, without allowing for dispute, is a failed perspective.

Religion, with its foundation in faith, is the king of this distortion, as it claims to know something definitively about the most complex and elusive origins of human kind, and this simply is not possible in an emergent universe.

This applies to every system, especially political, financial and religious systems. Since people's identities become associated with the doctrines of a Country, Religion or Business ethic, it often becomes very difficult for a person to change, for his or her identity has become combined with the ideologies which have been imposed upon them. http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com