Animal Experimentation

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 10:44

Does the forum think it is morally acceptable to experiment on animals to develop products and medicines that benefit us?



Or do animals have the right to be treated as beings in themselves, not as the means to human end?

simbas



Joined: 16/07/2007
Posts: 5943

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 10:46

ooooh No1 , you dont half pick them !!!!

Have a good day , Pat

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 10:49

I hope you have a good day as well Pat



Bill

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 11:03

I have mixed feelings on this subject. As almost everyone on here knows I am an animal lover my heart tells me that no animal should suffer no matter what, then my head kicks in and I know that many cures have been found for dreadful diseases through animal experimentation...I do not however agree at all with the experiments on animals to promote beauty products..

Kitty1


Joined: 15/03/2007
Posts: 683

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 11:19

I am with you DC4, I know exactly where you are coming from.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 11:39

I agree with you Dee. If it means a life can be saved then I'm all for it. However for the purpose of promoting beauty products - forget it.

simbas



Joined: 16/07/2007
Posts: 5943

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 11:41

Yep , me too

Simbas

Tommy


Joined: 24/04/2008
Posts: 14

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 11:42

I understand that a lot of the experiments are repeated on animals with no benefits to humans. Because a product slightly alters or changes its name!! I also have seen pictures of beauty products being sprayed into rabbits eyes for so called beauty. It has improved with lots of shops selling products with no animal testing so as consumers we should support that.

daisy dukes


Joined: 06/09/2008
Posts: 3815

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 11:45

I wonder, how many of you actually use makeup, deodorant nail polish etc etc....?



DD

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 11:54

hi dd. not knowingly if they have been tested on animals. xxx

simbas



Joined: 16/07/2007
Posts: 5943

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 11:57

Hi daisy dukes , not me , i'm a natural beauty !! { i don't think ! i need all the help i can get } . All jokes aside , i do try to buy cosmetics that has'nt been tested on animals or that's what is said on their containers .But who knows if it's true for sure !

Regards , Simbas

bridie


Joined: 18/09/2008
Posts: 308

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 11:58

Mess 9,

I never leave the bedroom, let alone the house without my makeup !! I try to use products that are animal friendly, but can only read what it says on the packaging.

daisy dukes


Joined: 06/09/2008
Posts: 3815

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 12:06

The thing is, at the end of the day, pretty much everything that can bought, has in some way or other been tested on animals, even the chemicals that get put into foodstuffs or the dyes in clothing...animal testing is not just applied to makeup and medicines, we are all in some way or another guilty of using somethng that has been tested on animals, and as much as i hate this, it is unfortunately a way of life. I suppose the only way around it is to go back to the stoneage, before anilmal testing was ever thought of...



DD

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 12:24

A bit oblique I know,...



but aren't The Kennel Club and Crufts also guilty of animal cruelty?



The RSPCA and other charities have been criticising them for inbreeding dogs to the point of serious health problems, purely for the 'Aesthetics' for the owners of certain breeds.



Is that Animal Cruelty for perceived Human 'Beauty'??



Rob

teatime


Joined: 20/10/2008
Posts: 852

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 12:28

I think science has moved on so far now that animal experimentation should be minimal. There are far better and more accurate ways to work on these experiments.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 12:33

"I also have seen pictures of beauty products being sprayed into rabbits eyes for so called beauty"



A bunny without eyeliner doesn't do it for me.

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 13:18

Strange how such weighty questions... when given thought... can oft best be guided by a return to natural moral law?



I presume the question embraces both animal research and vivisection?

Unfortunately... now that we are playing "God"... we have moved far ahead of simply spraying-testing cosmetics into animal'e eyes or cutting them up in laboratories. We now have to deal with transgenic experimentation ie altering the natural dna of animals,.the current arguments about human-animal hybrids and xenotranspalantation. All these things are happening now in our name.



Of interest... Obama in the last few days has given the go ahead to embriology bill, allowing scientists to create human embryos in the laboratory?



Is this a never ending quest to play God; mankind creating another path of experimentation to find cures, or are we destroying ourselves?



Hence the reasons I so often refer to said natural moral law, to guide us but also our treatment of animals etc?



Regards Joseph

daisy dukes


Joined: 06/09/2008
Posts: 3815

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 13:26

msg 14...it's a damn state of affairs, but this has been going on for years!! The Kennel Club is the canine world of top models!! You can't be too thin or too beautiful...there is always room for improvement, but sadly dogs get interbred worldwide and eventually, as in all interbreeding, defects start coming out and then no one wants them...who wants a defected show dog, then, if they're lucky, they get put down, others have to try their fate in the big world of unwanted dogs...which is just too disgusting for words! The thing is, this has been going for years and will probably go on for years to come...it saddens me greatly, but is a fact of life.



What i think we should be asking ourselves, is not 'what do we feel about animal testing'....but...'what can be done to stop it' because, even though we don't like it, it is an everyday must, would you give your family member a drug for say, cancer, that has had no testing whatsoever....??



DD

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 13:28

Until Humans become available for 'product testing' I'm afraid there's no other way apart from testing on animals.

daisy dukes


Joined: 06/09/2008
Posts: 3815

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 13:29

I agree no1



DD

Blackpoolfan


Joined: 03/12/2008
Posts: 1568

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 13:31

No 1,

You could start a new thread with your message. How about which Cyprus44 members do you think should be made availiable for " product testing "??

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 13:34

Hi Daisy...



Thoughtful points...



Don't know whether you know ...the BBC for the first time, last week,refused to televise Cruft's this year for the very reasons you mention above, after previously televising a program showing the congenital deformities brought about by inter breeding and the terrible distress caused to certain breeds.



Regards Joseph

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 13:37

Blackpoolfan....I'm not falling for that one ))

daisy dukes


Joined: 06/09/2008
Posts: 3815

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 13:44

Joseph...i didnt't know that, but as far as i'm concerned, it's about bloody time!!! The Kennel Club, pride themselves so much it almost borders on insanity...we humans have laws about interbreeding...the Kennel Club, should not be above the law of humans, even if it is 'only' dogs!! Who gave them the right to interbreed in the first place???



grrrrr, this subject really gets me angry!!!



thank you Joseph...



DD

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 15:55

Hi Daisy...



Story is here if you want to read it?..



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7779686.stm



Regards Joseph

daisy dukes


Joined: 06/09/2008
Posts: 3815

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 17:55

hiya Joseph...i have just watched the link....and all i can say, is, i am disgusted! For a nation of so called 'animal lovers' this repulses me, but it goes even further...in my opinion Crufts should be obliterated...what started out as having a beautiful dog, has turned into a simple money making machine....whatever happened to loving creatures?? I would be more than happpy to put my thoughts in front of the Kennel Club!!



DD

i have more to say, but maybe this isn't the right time or place, for now i will just simmer in my box....



DD

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 1487

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 18:34

They say cats have 9 lives. That would make them ideal for experimentation.



Lem

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 18:45

Hi DD,



I understand and until these things are brought to public attention we often don't know. But this is the dilemma that No1's tag presents us with.



At present they are (talking) taking such cross breeding to different species, ie put simply, the dna of cats with dogs, pigs etc. experimenting with hybrid dna of humans crossed with animals like chimpanzees, apes etc. and also xenotransplantation ie growing ears, hands etc on a pig, or mouse then grafting.



And... I apologise in advance for this yet again has bearing on the unborn...

embriology experimentation, which is the growing of human embryos in laboratories in order to carry out such experiments as above?



Very sad.



Regards Joseph

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
12/03/2009 11:26

daisy dukes

i am interested in what if any experience you have had with the kennel club or people who show dogs?

the kennel club have rules. a very large set.

breed clubs also have rules and those found not playing ball will be excluded and others belonging to the club will have no further dealings with that person.

if you actually go to crufts and watch the dogs in the ring you will see most enjoy it.

no respectable breeder inbreeds.

those puppies who don't ever make the show ring are not put to sleep as you so wrongly comment. they are found pet homes for very little money.

the kennel club also hold a show called discover dogs where the public can go and see different breeds and speak with breeders before commiting to a puppy.

it is not the kennel club and those who use it who are guilty of cruelty, its those who are puppy farmers who are guilty.

the kennel club are a reputable uk organisation, and as you seem to think otherwise, i look forward to you evidence that they are

Tommy


Joined: 24/04/2008
Posts: 14

Message Posted:
12/03/2009 15:02

Regards the show dogs. We have 'rescued' a stud dog. We say this because he came to us nervous and very snappy and in my opinion unloved. He had been passed from pillar to post sent off in a crate to sweden and god knows where. We have had him now for 2 years and we have seen him flourish into a happy friendly dog.

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
12/03/2009 16:30

Hi Tommy, great story and a credit to you



Daisy... re Kennel club etc ... I suppose its an inhouse thing re the shows etc but as you pointed out if such practices are being carried out under their banner then it leaves them open to criticism, and the bbc program left no doubts on that issue.



Interestingly Daisy ,our most reputable, independent uk organisation, the RSPCA also agrees with you as I think they refused to take a stand a the show?



Regards Joseph

daisy dukes


Joined: 06/09/2008
Posts: 3815

Message Posted:
12/03/2009 17:47

Nice one Tommy, as Joseph says, a credit to you!!



Joseph...i coudn't have said it better, and the fact that the RSPCA is indeed also taking a stand really just cements all of my views!



Firestarter...I really don't have anything more to say, i think the link above says it all really. At the end of the day these practises do go on, as is quite clearly explained in the link, and i do think that the Kennel Club really ought to stand up and start taking responsibility!!



DD

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
12/03/2009 22:11

tommy

my dog has been used for stud in the past.

i have owned and loved him since he was born, i paid god knows how much to bring him to cyprus, so maybe you just have a dog from a shit breeder.

joseph

as i live in the trnc i haven't had the latest bbc programs on t.v.

i will say that the rspca have had a stand at crufts for many years in the past, not that i have been there for at least the last 3.

along with many other charitys and rescue organisations.

daisy dukes

when you go about slandering a major uk organisation either back it up, as i asked you or shut up.

so where is the link??

lets face it daisy, you make excuses for those looking to dump a dog, maybe you should take a look closer to home before critising those who work for reputable rescue organisations from pedigree breed clubs.

who i will add work very hard without pay for the animals dumped by irresponceable owners.

daisy dukes


Joined: 06/09/2008
Posts: 3815

Message Posted:
12/03/2009 22:19

Firestarter, i do not make excuses for anyone, i do however give people the benefit of the doubt and i certainly do not go ploughing into someone with vicious remarks like what you do!! The link is in message 25...I suggest you do something useful and watch it..please do not bother with coming at me again as will not be drawn into your childish slanging matches!!!



DD

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
13/03/2009 13:35

daisy dukes

i asked you about your experiences regarding show dogs and the k.c?

i guess you have none.

from your comments that much is clear.

i will not stand by and watch you slander the k.c because you watched one tv program.

without the k.c the uk would be in the same mess as the trnc, so have a good think about that.

nobody is perfect, but k.c do a great job to stop cruelty as do the pedigree breed clubs whom work with them.

so go and do some research, then come back and have an informed debate!

you might actually learn something!

authentichoccie


Joined: 09/01/2008
Posts: 481

Message Posted:
13/03/2009 13:38

Years ago I remember a big expose on dog breeding in particular some large farms in Wales where the dogs were breed purely for profit and kept in very bad conditions. However I am sure that for every bad breeder there are a dozen more good ones.

But if the BBC are convinced there are wrong doings then they must have evidence to back this up.



I have taken the liberty of repeating the link for those that can’t be bothered to scroll up!!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7779686.stm



Why is it once again a healthy discussion has turned into a bitter attack on another board member?



As Daisy says Animal cruelty whether via testing or breeding is sadly a fact of life and the question should rightly be how to stop it!!

daisy dukes


Joined: 06/09/2008
Posts: 3815

Message Posted:
13/03/2009 13:54

Firestarter, i have been to many dog shows and horse shows for that matter, and i am more than quite aware what goes on!!

Please do not presume to know me, you do not!! I just happen to refuse to get into such a heated debate with someone that can't help but be spiteful and personel in their remarks!



DD

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
13/03/2009 16:20

I started the 'Crufts-V-RSPCA' thing in post 14.







Beginning to wish I hadn't now!





Calm Down!,.. Calm Down!,...



Rob

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
14/03/2009 16:41

thank you for the link.

the bbc have it totally wrong as our breed th shar pei is one of the breeds they presume to have a problem with.

both the uk shar pei clubs have been working hard for years to erradicate breed faults on the basis of health. along side kc i will add!

breed faults are not the main killer of shar pei, cancer is!

i think the beeb need to get facts right before slandering those breed clubs who do not deserve it.

anyone who believes their crap is uneducated or very stupid.

or both.

denizkisi


Joined: 18/09/2008
Posts: 196

Message Posted:
15/03/2009 18:03

Forget the kennel club!! Over here I have seen a sub standard rottweiller bitch mated with "someones bitch up the road" and guess what ? another batch of undersized, never mind the temprement rottweillers for sale and so it goes..................

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
16/03/2009 15:12

i totally agree deniz

thats the sort of thing repectable people don't do.

a lot of the time this is down to a lack of education and not understand bloodlines/genetics and breed faults.

then comes the health problems.

cruelty for the sake of money.

the thing is you cannot tar everyone with the same brush.

in the uk our breed club would have nothing to do with these sorts of people.

all pedigree dogs are sold on a legal contract to stop the novices breeding for money, but there will always be someone who breaks that contract, selling puppies without papers, in the local paper.

i use to use my dog for stud before and if i was not happy with the pedigree or bitch i would refuse the person looking to use him.simple it wasn't about the money it was about good breeding.

my dog is nearly ten now and has been a loved member of our family, he is asleep on the sofa as i am typing.

not all doggie people are cruel or bad.