The Cyprus Problem..............is a solution possible?

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
02/06/2009 20:29

Hi all,



Do we not think that it is time to stop talking in terms of "Reunification" and start talking in terms of an "Internationally recognised

settlement"



Just my thoughts, that is all.



wyn

simbas



Joined: 16/07/2007
Posts: 5943

Message Posted:
02/06/2009 20:50

Hi Wyn , good to see you posting again . Very good post , if only !

Love , Pat x

greylag


Joined: 08/04/2009
Posts: 1110

Message Posted:
02/06/2009 20:50

Hello Wyn,

"re-unification is dead and buried due to the fact that the gcs want to have their cake an eat it as usual.In my opinion alot will depend on which way Turkey decide to go,be it the middle east or the e.u. they (turkey) hold all the aces,

G.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
02/06/2009 20:56

I have just posted this on another thread here - and may be useful!



The UN has extended the mandate!



"The Security Council resolution extending the mandate of the 1,100-member UN peacekeeping mission until Dec. 15 strongly urges Talat and Christofias “to increase the momentum in the negotiations to ensure the full exploitation of this opportunity to reach a comprehensive settlement.” The council reiterated that a settlement should be based on two strong separate zones with an overarching federal government".



Looks like they are edging towards a two state solution with a federal government structure! The land issue will be up for negotiation!



Read this:



http://en.timeturk.com/talat-says-land-concessions-unavoidable-in-cyprus-deal--20603-haberi.html

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
02/06/2009 21:02

Hi Wyn, nice to see you back,but some would say nice to see the back of you. Dont let the barstools grind you down mate,keep posting as you do.There was life before 44 and there will be life after 44. As for your post Wyn,it really does not interest me,not being a permanent resident but no doubt one day there will be a final settlement.Hope it works out in every bodies favour....

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
03/06/2009 00:13

it will for turkey. Wyn my darlin good to see you back xxxxx

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
03/06/2009 00:14

agree with the latter wyn , good to see you posting again xx

Middle Easter


Joined: 13/06/2007
Posts: 146

Message Posted:
03/06/2009 19:26

A 2 state soluton would be so much better. Why? Becuase TRNC is so much better than the South in every respect. And as long as that stays the same then it gets my vote (if I had one that is!)

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
03/06/2009 19:33

Middle Easter,



Good to see that you are attempting a balanced debate on this subject. Reality is the province of the realist!



Eventually they will agree, and then no doubt........it was what they wanted all along! Sad!



wyn

canyavuz


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 363

Message Posted:
03/06/2009 19:56

No solution is possible. Mainly caused by GC's who can't seem to accept any plan which involves equal governing and power sharing rights between the Two communities.



A fair solution can be found (it alreay has been), but it will never be accepted by GC's.

And because of this constant Greek Cypriot decline of proposed solutions, Turkish Cypriots are begining to change their minds on supporting a solution. (A typical example of this is the election of the UBP nationalist party rather than the pro-unification supporters CTP).



No two state, 1 state, 10 state solution will ever work here.

In fact, no solution will ever work here because Turkey will rightfully never give up their presence on the island and the EOKA ideology still remains alive in the south. (Britian would also not support a plan which involves the Turkish troops removal from the island, for reasons relating to the closure of British bases).

It's been almost 35 years. If a solution were to be found, it would have be

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
03/06/2009 21:04

With respect the property issue is an extremely thorny one. Many ex-pats do have a rather biased opinion of a solution which is very little to do with sympathy towards Turkish Cypriots but more to do with buying Esdeger deeds. Most ex-pats use this as a smokescreen as a form of "self preservation".



It is more realistic and feasible that some sort of compensation will be paid to GC owners instead of giving back their land.



Canyavuz if the A-plan was accepted would it not be the case that there would be only something like 600 Turkish soldiers left in Cyprus today instead of the thousands which are still here.

greylag


Joined: 08/04/2009
Posts: 1110

Message Posted:
03/06/2009 21:14

Stubs,

Sensible and honest post,

G.

canyavuz


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 363

Message Posted:
04/06/2009 19:18

Stubs,



The number of troops allowed to stay would have been much more than that. I think it was around 15,000 to 20,000.



And yes, i agree with you on how compensation should be given rather than the land back, but at the time, the ANNAN plan meant much more than just a solution to the property situation.

But if it were put on the table now, i myself wouldnt accept it and nor would a majority of the TRNC, purely because of the small number of troops that would stay and only 50,000 settlers.

At the time, it was a good idea, but now it is not favoured by many.

Aussie


Joined: 17/06/2007
Posts: 657

Message Posted:
04/06/2009 19:53

A solution is possible but unlikely unless its supported by the major political parties on both sides.



Generally an acceptable proposal for TC's isn't acceptable to GC's and visa versa. property territory and the structure and authority of the federal government are 3 of the main issues on which they are poles apart. Even if the two presidents can compromise on these it is unlikely all of the other major political parties and leaders would agree to the final proposal.



Major referendums like this are difficult to get a yes vote on unless there is a general political consensus in favour of it as otherwise a well financed no campaign will tend to get the support of most undecided voters who tend to go for the status quo rather than risk a change.



Taking the recent case of Ireland where the major political parties supported a yes vote to the Lisbon treaty an effective well financed No campaign swung the vote to the no side.



Aussie

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
04/06/2009 20:22

The talks are so one sided the tcs dont stand a chance of achieving anything.The only way that they could succeed in gaining any of their demands would be through outside intervention.But the gcs wont allow this.Notreally a level playing field is it.The gcs wont give in on anything,

Paul.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
04/06/2009 20:30

Hi Aussie,



Long time, No shared Efes! Hope that you and your good lady, are well!



There must be an "internationally acceptable settlement" OK maybe not exactly reunification.



The sheer force of International pressure on Mr Talat and Mr Christophias.



Blair said " No Middle East peace settlement" without Turkey in The EC. It follows therefore that there will be an Internationally



agreed settlement, to the Cyprus Problem.



Milliband said he wished the leaders well on their negotiations, but sought the pressure from the International Community to



force through an agreement.



Obamah said he needs to see Turkey in the EC!



EVERYONE agrees that there needs to be a settlement to The Cyprus Problem. Christophias and Talat are committed to finding a



way forward.



The Gcs have been told in no uncertain terms that this time, they are drinking in the last chance saloon.



Now I am not a betting man but.............how much? What odds. Just relax Brit homeown

Geejay


Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 475

Message Posted:
04/06/2009 20:57

Please... the two sides haven't even addressed the property issue yet and there is no such thing as an "internationally acceptable settlement".

Do you really want the Turkish troops to go home,leaving the TC's helpless ? and what about the Greek troops in the South. Would they leave as well. No way.

This whole issue is loaded towards the Greek Cypriots and they know it. They will accept nothing less than a complete abandonment by Turkey of it's constitutional guarantee. Turkey in turn will not abandon what it sees as it's ethnic responsibilities in Cyprus.

However fed-up the international community is with the Greek Cypriot obstacles to the rights of the TC's it will still uphold the views of the "Government of the Republic of Cyprus" which it created.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
04/06/2009 20:59

Gesjay,



Oh ye of little faith!



wynge

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
04/06/2009 21:41

I heard only today that its already been agreed a 2 state situation. I dont know if its true but Obama seems to want friends from muslim states. I was told it was agreed a month ago and signed in germany. Why germany I dont know and we will come a state under turkey. We wait and see xx Wyn xx

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
04/06/2009 21:43

Thats strange Lilli, I heard the same toady.

harryroberts


Joined: 05/05/2009
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
04/06/2009 23:55

Lilli



I dont think that is true a 2 state solution will not happen

in fact i do not see any settlement agreed and things will just stay the way they are.



a two state solution will not comply to eu laws on freedom of movement i cannot see the north allowing FOM imagine if all the gc had freedom of movement the tcs could technically become a minority in the north. to restrict freedom of movement would be against the principles of the EU.unless of course the north does not become an eu member.



i dont think there is that much incentive for the south to make concessions they have oil, EU membership,and have international reconition.



a settlement will depend on how much turkey wants to join the EU personally i think they will lose interest eventually.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
04/06/2009 23:56

Canyavuz



The actual number of troops of either Turkish or Greek was until 2011 not exceeding 6000, thereafter 3000 until 2018 or Turkey's accession to the EU whichever was soonest and thereafter the Greek contingent 950 and the Turkish contingent 650 which would be subject to a 3 yearly review with the objective of total withdrawal.



For a transitional period of 19 years or Turkeys EU accession whichever is soonest Cyprus may limit the number of Greek nationals residing if the number reaches 5% of the Greek Cypriot population and also may limit the number of Turkish nationals if the number reaches 5% of the Turkish Cypriot poplulation.



scource http://www.hri.org/docs/annan/Main_Articles/MainArticles.pdf

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
05/06/2009 00:02

Harry

Message 21

'i dont think there is that much incentive for the south to make concessions they have oil,'

Do they? please tell me where.

AJ

harryroberts


Joined: 05/05/2009
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
05/06/2009 00:09

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6313699.stm



or this



http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100013_29/05/2009_107624

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
05/06/2009 00:33

harry

Oil and gas exploration does not mean that oil & gas will be found, first there has to be seismic surveys and then if there is an indication of oil and gas reserves then licenses are 'awarded' then there will be test drilling and if reserves are regarded as being potentially profitable then test wells will be drilled to determine the output of the field. My guess is that the Med has marginal fields and the companies that are interested (3 so far and not major companies) will have to weigh up the cost of investment against the cost of producing and selling oil and gas. Don't hold your breath.

AJ

Aussie


Joined: 17/06/2007
Posts: 657

Message Posted:
05/06/2009 11:41

Wyn



Good to hear from you too. Perhaps we can catch up next time you are over for a beer maybe in Esentepe.



A possibility with the talks is if its seen that both sides have exhausted there efforts in finding a solution that is again rejected by one or both sides in a referendum many countries and the UN may come to the view that a negotiated solution will never occur.



If this is the case some easing of trade restrictions and recognition may eventually occur perhaps accompanied by a limited territorial adjustment eg Varosha etc. Perhaps the TRNC or equivalent state could end up in some form of special partnership with the EU without full membership. This could also apply for Turkey given the strong resistance of France and Germany etc to full Turkish membership.



Aussie

coffer


Joined: 13/02/2007
Posts: 292

Message Posted:
05/06/2009 19:45

I think there has been substantial agreement by the two sides in spite of what has been written by a press who do not generally support the process. At the end of this year I think the people of Cyprus will be asked to vote in a referendum on an agreed outline solution. The final details to be thrashed out over the following 12 months.



How will it be packaged? The TCs will be sold the solution on the back of a lifting of the embargoes, direct flights, significant investment and EU aid to the community. The ROC citizens will be advised that there will be no get together in another 3 years to discuss it again. This is the last opportunity for a solution. On the plus side; investment, further aid to help unite the communities and compensation. A 'no' vote will mean permanent separation of the island. I think both sides will get the necessary 50%.

Stewart


Joined: 19/07/2008
Posts: 1107

Message Posted:
05/06/2009 19:56

quite agree with coffer...I wrote on this forum last sept that a two state solution had already been agreed..bit like states in the usa..with one federal goverment.



Turkish Troops will be rebadged as NATO ...hence troop problem sorted.



GC being pressured to vote yes due to their outstanding debt with the EU.



Meanwhile...we need to play the game..ie Orams case V not opening some crossings etc etc

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
05/06/2009 19:57

Aussie,Coffer,

Good to read your more optimistic and realistic posts.I am also thinking along the same lines as you both.I think that its time to realise that re-unification wont happen but some form of agreement will happen that will appease both sides,

Paul.

harryroberts


Joined: 05/05/2009
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
05/06/2009 19:58

there is no last chance ever for a solution they will keep talking till there is a just and viable outcome thats suits both communities.

if it takes every3 years for talks than so be it.



would would be gained by permanent separation?

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
05/06/2009 20:00

Coffer,



A very realistic summary.....

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
05/06/2009 20:01

Harry,

Do you mean what would be gained or who would gain,

Paul.

harryroberts


Joined: 05/05/2009
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
05/06/2009 20:03

harry



Oil and gas exploration does not mean that oil & gas will be found, first there has to be seismic surveys and then if there is an indication of oil and gas reserves then licenses are 'awarded' then there will be test drilling and if reserves are regarded as being potentially profitable then test wells will be drilled to determine the output of the field. My guess is that the Med has marginal fields and the companies that are interested (3 so far and not major companies) will have to weigh up the cost of investment against the cost of producing and selling oil and gas. Don't hold your breath.









so why is turkey threatning?

harryroberts


Joined: 05/05/2009
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
05/06/2009 20:06

Paul.



i ment what would be gained

but come to think of it who would gain is also a good question

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
05/06/2009 20:07

Aussie,



You are on for that beer, and a good debate. Still got the corks round your hat?



Now then..... Was it not the intention of the International Community that both leaders should exhaust all options?



Let us analyse what they say.... THEY BOTH seek an amicable settlement to The Cyprus Problem. They are both (in my humble



opinion), men of good faith! Cyprus is for the Cypriots. Not GCs and TCs.



The International community......Obamah, Blair, Milliband etc etc, see the larger picture. Can we afford a little Island, be



divided by conflict, stand in the way of peace in the Middle East. Of course not. We live in a global community where the will of



the International community prevail. Does Turkey turn to the West or to The East?



Aussie, You with your International Banking experience, knows more than most, that there will be an Internationally recognised



settlement. What the International Community want, they get!!

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
05/06/2009 20:11

I would be very interested to learn your views. With your experience, I would expect to hear where the International community



see the future, for this golden isle. I say again! What the International community want, the International community get.



Keep the faith!



wynge

coffer


Joined: 13/02/2007
Posts: 292

Message Posted:
05/06/2009 20:14

Harry, I think you and many on this island are overestimating the international community's continued support and patience while waiting for a resolution. Maintaining the status quo is not a option, its costly and there are many more pressing problems the EU, UN and major powers need to address. I truly believe this is the last chance for a Bi-communal Federal Cyprus. The alternative is some form of recognition of the TRNC either short or long term anything else would be a waste of time and effort.

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
05/06/2009 20:20

Harry,

It would depend what ties where still embedded on the north if it were to be a permanent seperation.If it became two countries and embargoes on the north where lifted then i think that the country would prosper,

Paul.

harryroberts


Joined: 05/05/2009
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
05/06/2009 21:05

coffer



are you saying that if the south does not agree a solution then. The alternative is some form of recognition of the TRNC either short or long term anything else would be a waste of time and effort.



what if the north does not agree is the alternative the same?



what if both dont agree?



are you saying no solution means recognition of the TRNC?

coffer


Joined: 13/02/2007
Posts: 292

Message Posted:
05/06/2009 21:55

Harry, There is a risk that the TCs will vote no but with strong support from all political parties (encouraged by Turkey) there will be enough support to get the 50% plus they need. However, if both sides voted no then I think that the international community would start negotiating with the TRNC and Turkey with a view to some form of recognition. They would have no other choice in my view, this is the end game.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
05/06/2009 22:28

Hi All,



Whatever the rights and wrongs of the situation.



The Greeks have always wanted to posess the entire island. (Enosis)



Now unless they agree some form of reunification they will lose. ON THIS OCCAISION the right ever to have the island



unified in any form. If the island is to be divided IT WILL BE PERMANENT. Is this what they want? Will the International



Community allow The TRNC to be permenantly isolated.........I think not! The Internation community, do NOT want a divided



island?



This my friends is drinking in the last chance saloon.



Guess you pays your money, or takes your choice!



Just my views, thats all,



wynge

harryroberts


Joined: 05/05/2009
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
05/06/2009 23:07

hang on coffer



so your saying if the gcs vote no then it will be reconition for the north



and if both sides voted no it would also mean reconition for the north



so the greeks have no choice but to vote yes even if the plan is not acceptable



ah what if the greeks voted yes and the turks no?

harryroberts


Joined: 05/05/2009
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
05/06/2009 23:10

if the international community does not want the north isolated then why has nothing been done in 35 years?

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
05/06/2009 23:14

harryoberts,



You may have a point! But perhaps the Brits need to stop beating their brains out, until it is sorted!



wynge

harryroberts


Joined: 05/05/2009
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
06/06/2009

The brits are beating their brains out because the secretly know they will be dropped like a hot penny by the trnc.

any solution will include compensation who honestly thinks the trnc are going to pay compensation for property occupied by brits or other europeans.

cypwine


Joined: 09/05/2009
Posts: 177

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 00:04

msg 46



spot on

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 00:06

Does that mean they will pay compensation for the many properties occupied by the Non European nationalities that have bought properties in the TRNC i.e. Russians, Kyrgyz, Kazahks, Uzbeks, Americans and Canadians these are the nationalties that I have met up to now that own property in the TRNC or is it just Brits and Europeans that are the target of your comment???

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 00:21

actually harry roberts,

were the gc's to undergo a truly miraculous conversion

and compromise, by paying some sort of compensation

the brits would double their cyprus house value overnight



pay compensation? bring it on!!!



sorry but no chance of any successful deal between these two in the real world though

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 00:26

Hi Guys,



Pass the noose! Why did you buy in the first place then?



Guess I need an early night!



wynge

harryroberts


Joined: 05/05/2009
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 00:29

i think if a settlement is agreed then all non tcs would be obliged to pay compensation a tc should not have to pay compensation after all they have also lost property in the south.



in my opinion if there is a settlement then the north would automatically beome part of the EU this would pave the way for judgements to be enforced in other eu countries should compensation not be paid.



british purchasers are in a no win situation if there is a settlement chances are they will have to pay compensation if there is no settlement then many cases like the orams will arrive.



regarding Russians, Kyrgyz, Kazahks, Uzbeks, Americans and Canadians etc they could be forced by the trnc to pay the compensation dont be suprised if this happens as i said the trnc will look after the tcs and will drop others like hot pennys.

harryroberts


Joined: 05/05/2009
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 00:34

actually harry roberts,



were the gc's to undergo a truly miraculous conversion



and compromise, by paying some sort of compensation



the brits would double their cyprus house value overnight

pay compensation? bring it on!!!

sorry but no chance of any successful deal between these two in the real world though









you have completely lost me what are you talking about?

millzer


Joined: 12/04/2007
Posts: 978

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 00:40

Harryroberts "i think if a settlement is agreed then all non tcs would be obliged to pay compensation a tc should not have to pay compensation after all they have also lost property in the south".



How does that work then harry?



If a TC lost land in the south, was given GC land in the north in exchange, and then sold on his GC land in the north to a brit. Who is entitled to the compensation for the TC land lost in the south? Not the TC surely, as he has already profited from the GC land he sold in the north so he cannot still lay claim to the land in the south. If a brit (or any other nationality for that matter) bought the land in the north then surely he must also inherit the rights to the land in the south IF any exchange/compensation agreement involving north south land were ever to form a part of a comprehensive settlement.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 00:42

My advocate says..If you have esqedeger land, then if a claim is made against you, then there will be an ofset



from land held in the South. Now that sounds fairly equitable to me. But............hang on a minute, isn't land in the South,



worth considerably more than land in The North!



confused!



wynge

fairy



Joined: 30/11/2008
Posts: 40

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 00:46

Re mess55.



Wynyardman, I think this has been a favourite line of all the agents and advocates, would be interesting to find out how they all learnt this line though...confused to!



S

harryroberts


Joined: 05/05/2009
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 01:03

milzer



theres was never any exchanges land exchange was a sentence made up by estate agents and developers in the north. do you know of any stavros and mehmet who have exchanged land?



as mrs orams she knows the truth now

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 01:11

Fairy,



Mr Talat has acknowledged that the TCs will have to hand land back to the GCs under any settlement. It surely follows



therefore that the intention is to exchange on an acre by acre (or donum by donum) basis, rather than monetary value.



Now unless I am missing something no money would change hands. Now if there is no settlement, and the island remains divided



no money will change hands anyway!!!!



Sounds fairly straightforward to me!



wynge

millzer


Joined: 12/04/2007
Posts: 978

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 01:15

Harryroberts,



I am quite aware that the 'exchange' idea was not endorsed by the GC's thank you, I am not that stoopid! I was simply talking about if in the event of a settlement land swaps/exchanges/compensation were to take place similar to the principles of the Annan plan (yes I know Annan was rejected by 76% GC'S blah blah) then in theory not just TC's could get compensated. Just take off the blinkers for a minute and think outside the box. I'm just speculating on what 'may' happen, not answering questions on Mastermind!

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 01:17

ingenious, wm...



remember talat is a politician, if you will excuse my language



and even in the garbled report that sparked this off the "if" word lurked in his speech



in the middle east "if" generally means "never"



erm...



actually no money will change hands anyway,



the gc's loadsa, instead they want to make off with the roof over your head



as if

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 01:20

harryroberts

'as mrs orams she knows the truth now'



No she does not know the truth yet, get a grip and understand what is going on. There is so much mis-information about the Orams case and a lot of postings on this board from GC sympathisers beggar belief.

AJ

CyprusChill


Joined: 08/05/2009
Posts: 666

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 03:00

Turkey, what a prolific statement country. (Strong).



Harmonise the pre 74 greed enosis, terrorist organisation first, the 'eocha' campaign embaressment.



' and where should the ' Turks ' live eventualy ?

CyprusChill


Joined: 08/05/2009
Posts: 666

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 04:45

pre 74 and after.



The thoughts of the medical staff NICOSIA / CYPRUS.



UN Fair to ask perhaps.

harryroberts


Joined: 05/05/2009
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 12:53

AlsancakJack: "There is so much mis-information about the Orams case

No she does not know the truth yet, get a grip and understand what is going on. There is so much mis-information about the Orams case and a lot of postings on this board from GC sympathisers beggar belief.



.



what mis-information please explain?

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 22:00

harry,



would you describe yourself as a gc sympathiser?



I think we should be told

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 22:09

harry roberts message 51:



ok I will explain my thinking on compensation:



there is a reunification deal "one day" and joe and jane bloggs become liable to pay stavros compensation



their modest bungalow requires a payment of five thousand quid (I don't think any more would be credible)



muttering darkly, they scrape this money together put it in an envelope marked for stavros' attention



and seal it with a kiss...



their bungalow thus becomes fully kosher and immediately doubles in value with buyers beating at their door

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 22:18

Harry

I think the mis-information that AJ pertains to is that which refers to the mechanics and history of the case.



The Orams case that started in 2004 has been through the Cypriot, UK and European Courts.

The case continues and is now subject to the Court of Appeal in London.

A judgment was made in the ROC. Some feel that this was incorrect. The judgment was passed by default. Subsequent Appeal in UK Court by Justice Jack found in favour of the Orams.

The ECJ has supported a request from Apostolides that the Judgment he obtained in the ROC can be enforced in the UK or any other EU court.



The case continues and my view is that it has some distance to go yet.

The costs of this litigation run into many hundreds of thousand of pounds. The case has become very political.

Further cases of this nature will struggle to attain any benefit because of the prohibitive costs involved.

The Political gain is indeed significant to the ROC administration. However the lack ..cont

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 22:20

msg 64 ,andre 514 , thats cool , stavros wont like that , but we do , he he he ,

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 22:22

of prospect for material gain will discourage further litigation. Most GC are ill funded for such expensive litigation for little gain. Consequently, most will be sitting on the fence in hope of political settlement and monetary compensation for proven property loss.



It is high time that the EU, UN took charge of the property comission and sorted property issues out so that political settlement upon the island could proceed without hinderance of civil litigations over individual properties.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 22:47

rowlo,



I could only say that is how it seems to me!



significantly though the other side have never agreed they would accept any cash in lieu

despite the tireless attempts of some '44 members to convince themselves otherwise...

and I have almost been labeled "dishonourable" for simply stating the bleedin' obvious



while if there ever is a unification of the two cyprus states I'll eat my hat, says bertie bassett

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 22:47

WAZ

Thanks for that, I really could not be bothered with trying to explain to the GC sympathisers on this board about the realities of the Orams case.

Take care

AJ

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 22:50

Waz...



Well put piece, thanks...

ilovekibris


Joined: 18/05/2009
Posts: 394

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 22:52

wynyardman wrote: "My advocate says..If you have esqedeger land, then if a claim is made against you, then there will be an ofset from land held in the South."

Haven't you already conceded in previous posts you were very foolish to allow yourself to be duped into buying exchange property from someone who was pretending t be the legal owner? And that the people who conned you included your legal advisor?

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 22:56

andre,



That is very heavy handed. No they have never said that they would accept cash in lieu.



30000 Turkish troops ( with a good story to tell) say that THIS IS NEGOTIATIION, not a free hand to dictate



Does a balanced discussion, offend you?



wyn

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 23:08

Ilovekibris,



Yes! Does that make me wrong to accept the assurrances of the Government, my lawyer,my estate agent and the builder?



Perhaps, just perhaps, that these are people of good faith, that have every intention of keeping their word in the current



negotiations with The GCs. The Turkish Deputy Prime Minister was happy to confirm their committment to the British Investors.



Just my thoughts, thats all.



wynge

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 23:33

wyn,



of course a balanced discussion doesn't offend me



it just strikes me as quite uncomfortable, sitting on the fence as it were

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 23:47

andre 514,



We paid our monies, and took our chance!



wyn

harryroberts


Joined: 05/05/2009
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
07/06/2009 19:34

harry,







would you describe yourself as a gc sympathiser?







would you describe yourself as sarastic

harryroberts


Joined: 05/05/2009
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
07/06/2009 19:34

sorry sarcastic

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
07/06/2009 19:53

wyn ,, NO xxxx msg 1

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
08/06/2009 21:35

harry roberts msgs. 76/77



yes I would certainly describe myself as sarcastic as well as sarastic

would you describe yourself as unbiased?

if so, you're either living a fib or are the only one alive on the planet

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
08/06/2009 21:49

Msg 73 well said Wynne....a well balanced response.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
08/06/2009 22:04

Dear AJ, re 69 !



as WELL you know Warren's ( Waz) explanation of Mr Apostolides action against the Orams' is not correct..

..A judgment was made in the ROC. Some feel that this was incorrect<<



Mr Apostolides is a citizen of the RoC.. the Orams' have built on land that is still Mr Apostolides' and is subject to RoC legislation - it's just that the govt can't "govern" as the Turks arrived in 74 and haven't left and then proclaimed a new "state" that only TR recognise...



The Orams' though a writ from a RoC court was a worthless piece of paper "from a foreign country " and a Judgement was entered in default ..



The EU recognise that a ruling from a RoC Court *is* legally valid and the Court of England and Wales mistakenly ( and in my opinion decided to wrongly interpret Protocol 10( concerning the EU accession of RoC and the area of CY that is outside the control of the recognised Govt.



The UK Courts asked for a ECJ ruling and got it .. the Roc ruling is "OK" ..

harryroberts


Joined: 05/05/2009
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
08/06/2009 22:41

yes I would certainly describe myself as sarcastic as well as sarastic



would you describe yourself as unbiased?



if so, you're either living a fib or are the only one alive on the planet





i am as biased as you are



that should answer your question

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
08/06/2009 23:52

we...ll



I've been thinking about this bias business harry...every individual has a viewpoint

this is basically related to general perceptions of self-interest, material or spiritual



although it is still possible to behave in an unbiased way in any particular situation

take the european court for example:



those making the recent "judgement" included a greek judge

who is married to a greek cypriot lawyer who represents the loizidou claimant

for reasons of honesty and professional integrity,

you may nonetheless require him to decide the orams case in an unbiased manner



what is dishonest and creepy is the type of person who very much has an axe to grind

pretending to be unbiased and objective, and quoting endlessly from official-looking documents:



I for one am not at all objective either real or phoney, but am quite partisan:

may apostolides and his backers rot in hell, for all the good this case will do them

jock1



Joined: 06/01/2008
Posts: 3786

Message Posted:
09/06/2009

to get back on subject, I hope so wyn................

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
09/06/2009 00:02

msg 81 mmmmmmm response.



I am not sure of your point in this contribution.

It is fact that Mr Appostolides attained a judgment against the Orams on 9th November 2004 in Nicosia District Court. I beg to suggest that I am indeed correct.

The remainder of your contribution is public knowledge in the public domain and offers no solution.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
09/06/2009 00:32

I understood that the President of the court was also Greek. The Orams did not stand a chance.



Troodo.

cypwine


Joined: 09/05/2009
Posts: 177

Message Posted:
09/06/2009 00:40

well troodo, blair is british & they still didnt stand a chance!

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
09/06/2009 00:47

Certainly, the Orams were treated very poorly indeed by the legal system in the ROC. Justice Jack in the UK Court of Appeal acknowledged this and found in favour of the Orams initial appeal.



I do hope that the High Court of Appeal this October will take the view that a judgment in favour of Appostolides is not in the public interest and award in favour of the Orams.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
09/06/2009 09:23

Msg1,



Internationally recognised settlement.................





"Microstate" anyone?





wynyardman

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
09/06/2009 09:27

cypwine,



the orams judgement is a significant one:

it shows that any overall resolution

of what you would call the cyprus question, is very unlikely



think about this:

the tactic of using a north cyprus forum to re-inforce your guys' views

may have some limited success I would agree, but in its own terms

likewise a long-running legal battle

involving the orams pensioners with claim and counter-claim and protracted argument

can be a step forward in reinforcing technical and theoretical ownership



though both have little or negative effects on the "re-uniting" cyprus strategy



they are carried out from a position of weakness not dialogue

and will not acheive the result many of your people say they are seeking

the way to do that is to accept you may get something but certainly not everything



but who am I to state the ovious so brutally?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
09/06/2009 09:38

re msg 85/88



Warren / Waz



Judge Jack pointed out that the Orams' had done something wrong... his problem was only with the UK being a vessel to ENFORCE the Judgement...



I'm STILL waiting for evidence from you to back up your claim this is a political case... Mr Apostolides was VERY vocal in his cries for financial help

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
09/06/2009 09:41

Dear Wyn



re msg 1



Reunification is not going to happen.. the only game in town is bi-zonality - as part of a federated state - giving more autonomy to TCs that they have now.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
09/06/2009 16:19

mmmmmm,



Have to say, that having noted most of the opinions expressed on this board, both from members and outside opinions.



I am rather taken with the idea of a "microstate". Seems to fit all the boxes, and it would sure as hell put the wind up the Gcs!.



Concentrate a few minds before a referendum on reunification .Sort out the Orams situation also!



As always just my views, thats all.



wyn

dutty


Joined: 09/06/2009
Posts: 75

Message Posted:
09/06/2009 19:36

Am I being thick? I have read some of the orams case so understand parts of it. Forget wether it is exchange land. Can someone explain to me why someone in the north is not doing to a GC the same legal proceedings the Orams are having done to them?

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
09/06/2009 19:49

There are such cases....they are just not widely publicised and the IPC is now supposed to deal with all such actions.

dutty


Joined: 09/06/2009
Posts: 75

Message Posted:
09/06/2009 19:59

Who's the IPC and why don't you lot try to put pressure on to get this type of thing publisised and what happened in thos cases because nobody in all the blogs I have read has said anything about these cases

ilovekibris


Joined: 18/05/2009
Posts: 394

Message Posted:
09/06/2009 19:59

dutty,

Because it would be very hard to replicate a case in the south. Expats in the TRNC (apart from those on pre-74) are occupying stolen property and are complicit in this offence. They are crying out to be taken to court or arrested on a EU warrant.

Abandoned TC property in the south (apart from any expropriated for public works) is held in trust and can be reclaimed by TC owners. That is the lawful and proper way of doing things - and has much to do with the south being recognised as the government of all Cyprus.

Littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
09/06/2009 20:02

The answer is not as long as a politician has a hole in his arse.



Why



They all talk shit and want to feather their own nest.

dutty


Joined: 09/06/2009
Posts: 75

Message Posted:
09/06/2009 20:52

So rent is being put on one side for the property that is in trust then!!!!! Putting it in trust is a legal way of stealing and surely a deal could still be done offering the land in the south to the GC in exchange for the stolen land in the north.



How much land is there in the south held in trust?



Is all this land listed anywhere?



Is Larnaca airport built on land in trust ( Hell of a rent ) ?

Aussie


Joined: 17/06/2007
Posts: 657

Message Posted:
09/06/2009 22:06

Re ROC Guardian Law



There have been cases of TC's who did not exchange their land in the south for GC property in the North but have still been denied access to it by the ROC, such as the case Arif Mustafa. He had to appeal to the UCHR and finally won a case in the ROC Supreme court 2006. The ROC eventually stopped fighting this decision after initially appealing.



Other owners have been refused right of return due to joint ownership where one owner lives in the TRNC.



Also refer to



http://www.cyprus44.com/forums/4965.asp





What sort of protection is it when you don't receive a cent of rent let alone full market rental and the Guardian Board is not transparent in its finances or what it does with the concessional rents it receives.



The 6 month rule is also a joke and it makes a mockery of GC complaints about use of their properties in the North.







In cases of compulsory acquisition of TC land why haven't the ROC paid full market compensation yet ?





Aussie

Aussie


Joined: 17/06/2007
Posts: 657

Message Posted:
09/06/2009 23:10

There other cases in the pipeline for reclaiming TC land against the ROC government



In this week Cyprus Observer (page 14, 6- 11 June) it quotes a Turkish Cypriot lawyer and property owner in the south Ata Dayanc has appealed to the European Court of Human rights for at least 2 million Euros in damages for return of his family property (now used as a school) after receiving no satisfactory response form the ROC on the matter.



It is also likely that Mr Tymvios who reached an agreed settlement to exchange land in the TRNC for land in the ROC with the TRNC property commission will have to pursue legal action to secure the release of these properties from the ROC. To date the ROC has refused to recognise the exchange.



I have read that other cases are in the pipeline but the overall level of claims has been restricted due to most TC ROC landowners agreeing to exchange their land for property in the North. I understand TRNC laws rightly prohibit such owners from lodging claims in th

dutty


Joined: 09/06/2009
Posts: 75

Message Posted:
10/06/2009 00:47

ilovekibris



you don't seem to have many answers to my questions!!!!

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
10/06/2009 10:26

Dutty,

Kibris has not answered your questions, these people are not paid to do that.



Troodo.

dutty


Joined: 09/06/2009
Posts: 75

Message Posted:
10/06/2009 10:57

PAID!

hds.trnc


Joined: 26/05/2009
Posts: 175

Message Posted:
10/06/2009 12:17

if it comes to a vote i think both will say no....

ilovekibris


Joined: 18/05/2009
Posts: 394

Message Posted:
10/06/2009 16:57

dutty,



If I could answer the specifics of your questions I would. Why not contact the Cyprus High Commission as they are the ones with the info at their fingertips.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
10/06/2009 20:29

msg 91 mmmmm



Mark, You are fully aware, I am sure, that Justice Jack found in favour of the Orams. I think that this, given your continous reliance upon written fact, is the only fact that counts. Of course the case continues and is likely to eventually proceed to the Law Lords.



Furthermore, You are fully aware that the Orams case is one of civil litigation. There is no doubt in my mind that the applicant, Mr Apostilides is politically motivated. He will and does deny this. The very obvious discussion on this forum, on other forums, in the UK houses of parliment, by the TRNC,ROC and Turkish administrations clearly support this line of thought.

Legally founded evidence..there is none.

What would you like to believe?

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
10/06/2009 23:04

TC land held in trust...............what a load of shi*e.



Having just returned from NC we were speaking to a TC who took his elderly mother to Paphos a few weeks ago to see her property there, and guess what yes new apartment block built on it.



I does make me wonder why there are 1000s of properties in the south *STILL* not been issued title deeds my guess is they are built on *Stolen* TC land.



I did ask some time ago about Larnaca Airport land and was told by some on here that GC,s had to build on this land as it was the only place suitable, can someone please tell me as it appears that the new airport at Larnaca is built on GC land next door to the old airport ....why was the old airport not built on this GC land ?

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
10/06/2009 23:26

Turtle,



Excellent posting.. What a good point you make MSG108 LINE 3 A little close analysis in that direction may reveal much.!



wyn

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
10/06/2009 23:41

y'know it's a funny old world



lots of gc supporters pop up on the forum with structured arguments

great deal of stuff about compensation schemes these last two days,

and their partener in crime, a settlement deal

as the song might go you can't have much of one without the other



then again the anger and bile is very much all there too,

a sort of chatty friendliness through gritted teeth as it were

it's been a strage type of "push", and always looking over its shoulder

to a reunification deal that is less and less and less believable

as the months roll by...



but hang on: surely a friendly agreed deal sugared with baksheesh payments

and the anger, griited teeth and isolations, the huff and puff and warnings

do not really sit so well together?



for as me old mum used to say "you can't ride two horses with one behind"

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
11/06/2009 17:45

andre message 110



Excellent post.



Just for fun, read the posts you are talking about.Mentally write down what month,from the tone of the post, you think the poster joined the forum.Then look and see how close you get.Worst I have been is 2 weeks out,



Its amazing how many people after 28/4,

bought a house in Lapta,

had just become aware of Cyprus 44,

have loads of GC friends who luv TC's and TC friends who want to be part of the ROC and dont like the Turkish Army here.

wanted innocent information such as"I have been told that exchange land is dodgy,is that correct",

and are so helpful they just want to keep informing us that the Orams lost,or that ROC has criminalised exchange purchase.





We should go on the Cyprus Forum , talk,hundreds of times, about how we ran into thousands of GC's while in Larnaca airport, who loved everybody and everything in TRNC, and who wished there was a settlement so that they could become part of the TRNC,instead of the corrupt Greek run R

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
11/06/2009 17:48

msge 110 and 111



You two guys are on top form today. Perhaps its that Friday feeling