And what about UKIP ?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
04/06/2009 09:27

I've started THIS thread as this party came up in a now closed thread ..a member stating they be voting:



>>UKIP as the only party that defends the British "identity"<<



Er , *Hello*.. What about - in no particular order: "Libertas, BNP, No2EU, Jury Team....... the list goes on ...



I've lived abroad and share with AJ ( one of the few things I do share !) the feeling that we are "guests" in a foreign country and must respect their traditions... but that didn't mean I was going to become a practising Muslim or Orthodox worshipper !



FACT: The UK joined the EEC in 74 - after a vote... many things have changed- it has become much more than a economic / trade club . UK citizens should get a chance to decide if they WANT to extend the scope of this club.. UKIP, et al ain't going to swing that - only a major party - with UK representation is going to be able to do THAT..



What good is it voting for a party that can do BUGGER all at the EU parliament and it's MEPs can't agree?

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
04/06/2009 10:42

Finally, a well argued post on UKIP et al and the EU!



Good to hear it Mark!



Many things have changed - Mastricht, Nice, Lisbon.



Fact is that we need to decide what we want and not simply whinge from the sidelines with a little Englander mentality!



We need a vote on how far we are prepared to go - but we also need to remember that if we want to retract some of the agreements / treaties we will end up being a marginal state in the EU set up! All well and good if that is what we want as a nation - but it will be a different story if we end up losing economically in the years ahead!



1/9 to 1/27 is a huge transformation! The treaties under both the Tories and New Labour have made changes we did not imagine in 1974.



We can always end up like Iceland - out of the EU, bankrupt and dependent on Russian banks to keep afloat!

Littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
04/06/2009 10:50

"I've lived abroad and share with AJ ( one of the few things I do share !) the feeling that we are "guests" in a foreign country and must respect their traditions."



try getting newcomers to the uk to goalong with this, see what the left wing commie do gooders brand you.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
04/06/2009 11:06

We are all guests on this planet Nigel! Sooner or later we will leave it! The best we can do is to leave it a little better than when we arrived!

Geejay


Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 475

Message Posted:
04/06/2009 13:27

"Libertas, BNP, No2EU, Jury Team"... mmmmm, If you want to vote BNP, that's up to you. But none of these parties have the influence currently to change things, unlike UKIP.



The UK joined the EEC in 1974 not the EC. The people were asked to vote on a European Trading organisation not a political dinosaur that it has become.

How can you believe in an organisation that uproots itself every 6 months to travel to Strasbourg or Brussels ? Next will be a European "Defence Force" whose activities no one will be able to agree on.



The reality is that we were misled by our political masters at the time in 1974 and are still being misinformed and misled. Come to that how can you trust a party that simply changes the label of a "treaty" in order avoid a referendum ?



Why not try voting for a party whose policies are straight forward with no hidden agenda's.

Geejay


Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 475

Message Posted:
04/06/2009 13:47

Aah... yes Moover 321, The Lisbon "Treaty". Change the title so that we don't get a referendum. Never mind, that's politics in the EU. Then again even if there's a referendum, if you vote "wrongly" you have to do it again until you get the "right" answer.

Do you really trust this EUROPEAN organisation or our political masters ? Please wake up to reality before it's too late.

Geejay


Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 475

Message Posted:
04/06/2009 16:02

And here's another little wrinkle from the EC in order to get the result wanted by them.



Voters are saying that UKIP is not on the voting paper. "The problem is that Returning Officers have been folding the ballot papers. They have been folding them so that the last two, three or four parties in alphabetical order are hidden when the first fold of the paper is opened. It thus appears that UKIP is not on the ballot paper."

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
04/06/2009 16:34

Geejay



re msg 5



May be I'm missing something - but it LOOKS like you might try READING a post before commenting on it ?..



1/ A vote for BNP is just slightly more wasted that one for UKIP.. UKIP have demonstrated that even with only a handful of MEPs they could select well dodgy characters and have fall outs way out of proportion to the size of the party..



2/ I already mentioned the fact that the "club" we joined had changed rules and agendas



3/ But for all it's faults - the EU has presided over the longest period of peace-time in Europe and I'd rather see a lot of talking than wars..



4/ UKIP and BNP seem to have a big thing about Eastern Europeans and other EU members having the right to move to the UK, but they forget that a HUGE number of UK citizens take advantage of the EU Directives to move to Cyprus, Spain, France, etc. and work if they need to.. So, if their policies are implemented- I hope the Brits living / working abroad won't mind any "tit for tat" reacti

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
04/06/2009 16:40

(cont) reaction



5/ The UK attracts many successful EU entrepreneurs because of its rules that allow businesses to start / thrive - what we don't need in a recession is dose of protectionism "Little Englander" mentality... the UK is now a Service industry nation - not a manufacturing one - it is FAR easier to sell from within a club.



Thinking we can enjoy the benefits without being a full member... well it's plain silly.... We need MEPS that are backed up by strong representation back home - not extremists who will be powerless in the EU and at home..



OK ... Vote for the Tories... .. I've said...

Geejay


Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 475

Message Posted:
04/06/2009 17:19

Oh, mmmmm,

You have been taken in haven't you. First by Ted Heath who persuaded people to vote for a TRADING COMMUNITY which now turns out to be a political and legal monolith with hopes of becoming a military power. And now by those who gain the most by membership, the politicians in whom you place your trust and who continually betray it.



I can't believe you said that "the EU has presided over the longest period of peace-time in Europe". You seem to forget about Kosovo and Georgia. It was in Kosovo where the Dutch military had to stand aside while 3000 men and children were massacred because of their governments orders. So much for an EU presence stopping the killing of innocents.



Nothing I've written refers to protectionism so please read my posts properly. Next you will be saying that if we leave the EU we will lose trade, jobs and investment. That kind of scaremongering would be typical of EU enthusiasts.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
04/06/2009 17:35

The uk should leave the EUand at the same time do away with the Human Rights Act in favour of a Bill of Right's.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
04/06/2009 17:40

Geejay - re msg 10



I've not been "taken in" - I've USED the rights of EU membership in Business and my personal life to good effect ;)



I wasn't aware that Kosovo or Georgia were member of the EU...



Are you getting mixed up between Bosnia and Kosovo - re the Dutch... *I* thought that responsibility for Kosovo's security became that of the EU's in Dec 2008 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_(UNMIK) )



I promise to read your posts properly when you know some historical facts.. If we left the EU OF COURSE we'd be somewhat "screwed".... Even the USA has tried to make stronger links with Canada and Mexico - the UK is too small a player to have say in the world, now.



I'm not an "EU Enthusiast" ( not too many Tory voters can claim that ! - you were paying attention in class, weren't you?! ) there's lots of things need changing - I'm apparently more clued up on facts and a little more of a realist that you .....

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
04/06/2009 17:41

re msg 12 last line ...or *than* you, even .

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
04/06/2009 18:45

Geejay

" Next you will be saying that if we leave the EU we will lose trade, jobs and investment. That kind of scaremongering would be typical of EU enthusiasts."





I for one am happy with being an EU enthusiast.

60% of our trade is with Europe where will that be taken up. Please dont say EU countries will still buy our stuff when we leave europe,not if it means laying off workers. At the moment no EU country can protect its own industry against another EU member ,but they certainly could against a UK out of Europe. Do you think Japanese car industry will invest in UK if there is a chance of access to Europe being denied.



Investment in UK is helped by the fact that the investment is also in the EU.



As mmm says, we are too small on our own, but,

We can align with America as we did in Iraq ,when the cowardly Europeans didnt believe and help us against the WMD that were only 40 mins away (OOPS). How about with Russia ,believe they already invest in UK already,football te

Geejay


Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 475

Message Posted:
04/06/2009 19:09

mmmmm,



If its true that "the UK is too small a player to have say in the world" then it's down to "small englanders" like you who accept anything done or said to the detriment of the UK, to the advantage of other nations.

Bye the bye, you mentioned Europe (not the EU) in the context of stopping wars not me, so my comments on Kosovo and Georgia stand. Your view doesn't change the facts regarding the death of so many innocents that could have been prevented.



We're obviously not getting anywhere here and we are certainly not going to persuade each other to a contrary opinion. As we seem to have taken over this topic, probably to everyone else's boredom this is the last time I will post on this topic. Others can take it up if they will.



We'll no doubt meet up with each other on some other controversial subject. I look forward to it.

Littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
04/06/2009 19:12

oh please please do not mention .....



the Dutch military had to stand aside while 3000 men and children were massacred because of their governments orders. So much for an EU presence stopping the killing of innocents.



they were only following orders !!



and i agree The uk should leave the EUand at the same time do away with the Human Rights Act in favour of a Bill of Right's.

ilovekibris


Joined: 18/05/2009
Posts: 394

Message Posted:
04/06/2009 19:15

UKIP - at least three of their big figures had their fingers in the till unless I'm mistaken.

Littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
04/06/2009 19:16

Better a finger in the till than in the dyke

canyavuz


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 363

Message Posted:
04/06/2009 19:21

no2eu? what a joke they are indeed!

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
04/06/2009 19:58

I have voted. Trouble is just what difference do 'our' MEP's really make? It seems to me that it's the EU Commissioners that make the decisions and the laws. Same as in the UK, the government makes up the laws and the MP's are 'whipped' into voting for it. I dread to think just what our MEP's claim on expenses.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
04/06/2009 20:29

Geejay - which planet do you live on?



Mark good post - interesting, informative and well presented!



Commonsense and a bit of background knowledge can change attitudes. Seems like many a UKIP / BNP voter don't want to engage the grey cells simple give a knee jerk reaction!



If we left the EU - one thing is certain anyone with any sense who is living in the UK will take a serious look at moving out! Then the BNP or whoever can have the island to themselves and place all the barbwire around the entire coast to keep the animals in

Geejay


Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 475

Message Posted:
04/06/2009 22:15

Really moover321, If you can't put forward some cogent reasons for your disagreement with my opinions you really shouldn't bother to post.

I've already taken a serious look at what's happening in the UK and moved out where the EC writ is not effective (so far). You however have surrendered to the EC fallacies which abound and diminish UK sovereignty in the belief that its for the common good.

You should be aware that there is no common purpose in the EC. Every country is looking out for itself and maximising it's own influence. While you and other europhiles just give in to the EC regardless of the diminution caused to the UK status and negotiating positions. Just give in and accept what is handed out to you by this undemocratic monolithic monstrosity. Just give in and surrender your historic and fought for freedoms. Just give in and forget how much you owe to those who gave us our laws and sovereignty. Oops ! got a bit serious there but meant.

Arthur


Joined: 04/11/2008
Posts: 687

Message Posted:
04/06/2009 22:47

Sorry to correct you Mmmmmm, but the UK joined the EEC WITHOUT a vote in 1973, on Ted Heath's promise that we would not join "without the full consent of the British people", which I think most took as a referendum. It is true that some years later there WAS a referendum, which was voted for- I don't think most people saw any other choice. I don't think anyone [or at least most] disagree with an European Economic Community [i.e where countries work together on economic matters for the greater good], but I still think most are unhappy with the constraints that are created by us being ruled unrepresentatively by the EC.

The fact is that it's only us and the Germans who obey the rules- look at the French burning sheep in lorries, blockading ports, the wholesale corruption of the Common Agricultural Policy- the list is endless. In fact our politicians should be ashamed that their corruption isn't a patch on their European colleagues.

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
04/06/2009 22:58

yeah arthur , and look at the state of our country , weve been robbed from the top , down .

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
05/06/2009 00:57

Geejay! perhaps you simply do not get it! The world is getting to be a very, very small place! There are massive trading blocs everywhere. The USA is in NAFTA; Europe has the EU; In the far East you have the Asiac Bloc and so on and so forth! Where do you think a small island with a colonial history and little or no real resources will survive in the long run? The biggest contributor to the UK economy is the servic sector - and most of that is accounted by 'international financial trade' and by the EU. We (UK) have more than 65% of or trade dependent on the EU - do you honestly think that being out would be more benefitial than staying in?



Of course each country is in it for themselves - but that is the point - by being in it you can fight your country's corner by being out you will simply be another Iceland!



If you think by living in TRNC you are out of the EU then you need to look at your title deeds and hope to God that the Orams case is just a one off!

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
05/06/2009 00:59

So Geejay! Is the reasoning 'cogent' enough or do you want me to write you a short thesis?

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
05/06/2009 01:11

Nige

Ref message 16 & 18

Who are you having a go at now?

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
05/06/2009 01:18

AJ - seems like he doesn't like Dykes

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
05/06/2009 16:26

Hi Arthur

re msg 23



>>Sorry to correct you Mmmmmm, but the UK joined the EEC WITHOUT a vote in 1973<<



Don't be "sorry", please - I got it WRONG !..



The referendum was in 1975..



http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=EEC+referendum&meta=



Geejay

re msg 15



1/ I'm not English - or little..



2/ As the thread concerns UKIP and EU elections I think it is safe to assume When I refer to "Europe" - I mean EU..



3/ I note you don't refer to my correcting you re your Kosovo / EU blunder....