Islamic marriage should the woman be free to choose

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 10:19

Just been watching the Doha debates about marriage. Do you think that these muslim women should be given the choice to choose thier marriage partner or be forced to live in a loveless lonely marriage. Should they have thier rights and have freedom or remain true to thier faith in this muslim modern time. Men do not have to marry muslim women but women have to marry only muslim men

Trudy


Joined: 25/05/2009
Posts: 369

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 10:25

Of course they should be given the choice to marry who ever they wish. They deserve to have rights and freedom as much as anyone else. Why should they be forced to marry someone who they dont know or love? Why should anyone be forced to do something they dont want to do? Religion can be a horrible thing sometimes. Im sure a lot of these women just marry these men to keep their families happy. Im sure there are a large percentage who dont want to marry but are afraid of being frowned upon by betraying their faith and/or being disowned by their families. Its very sad.

smithy


Joined: 17/07/2008
Posts: 5301

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 10:29

My views are people should be allowed to choose their own partners, although its not always the right decision we should still be able to make that choice. it seems like a mans world where Muslims are concerned. It may have worked out for their parents etc but to be forced into a loveless marriage is heartbreaking.

Sheila

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 10:30

I wonder what the divorce rate is for these marriages. Why should they sacrfice thier lives to keep family religion happy before her own happiness. Trudy its sad watching it. xx

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 10:55

our muslim friends have allowed their girls to choose.

all are very happy.

i think more of the not being able to choose are from indian familes.

i have know arranged mariages where they have only met once or twice , but these people were from indian backgrounds, and not all muslim.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 10:56

Well rose the programme has just finished 62% want a montion passed to give women te freedom. This programme was all about arab countries xx

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 11:03

call me old fashioned, but birds should do what their old man says........

Trudy


Joined: 25/05/2009
Posts: 369

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 11:11

I do hope that one day things will change and these women will no longer be forced into arranged marriages. I wish they weren't afraid and had the strength within themselves to stand up for their rights. Though i can only imagine how difficult that must be when you can only either choose your faith and family or choose your freedom.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 11:19

I ag ree with you Trudy but now they are all intelligent people educated by thier families yet the freedom denied them xx

roisin


Joined: 19/03/2009
Posts: 358

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 11:52

Arranged marriages are not the same as forced marriages. In the Koran it tells people to listen to the advice of their parents but it doesnot say any has to marry against their will. If they follow Islam properly then no-one is forced into marriage. Unfortunately customs and traditions are very strong and these are what are followed rather than religion.

phylray



Joined: 21/09/2007
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 11:56

Freedom of choice for women has grown in all cultures in recent years.

My own mother-in-law (not Muslim but Hindu) was married at 13 and never

saw her chosen husband before. Two generations later and grandaughter

chose herself, she and mother rejecting the one her father chose, for the one

she wanted. Although she didn't have a wide choice!

Trudy


Joined: 25/05/2009
Posts: 369

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 12:01

For me, even if a marriage is arranged, then the woman doesn't have any rights. She will upset her family should she turn down the man they chose for her anyway. Therefore unless she speaks out, which im sure most dont, then she will end up marrying this man anyway. I think most just go with the flow so to speak. This is just my opinion though.



I do agree with what you say though Roisin, it is the traditions and customs that are followed more than the religion.

Trudy


Joined: 25/05/2009
Posts: 369

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 12:04

That should have said she doesnt have any choice, not rights.

daisy dukes


Joined: 06/09/2008
Posts: 3815

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 12:05

Well it's not just being afraid of parental disapproval, if they were to refuse the hand of a chosen husband, they will most likely be put to death, commonly known as an Honour Killing, usually committed by a close family member, a brother being the most usual....this is what is most disgusting thing about arranged marriages, but i suppose what is even worse is that it is a practise that is condoned by their parents in the name of Allah!! But to me, what could possibly be even worse, is the repercussions of being gay....for a modern world, these atrocities just make me sick to the stomache!!



DD

CasaCoco


Joined: 06/04/2009
Posts: 95

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 14:46

daisy dukes - honour killings are not commonplace among educated Arabs, that's not to say it doesn't happen though. It happens quite frequently in the Indian sub-continent countries.



I also watched the Doha debates and I live in Bahrain. The thing people have to remember is that whilst we, in the western world think this is all wrong, who are we to tell other countries/religions what to do? What gives us the right to impose our views on other nations whose cultural practices differ from our own? 62% is not that high a motion in the scheme of things. The educated ones who are lucky enough to travel and see a bit of the world are usually the ones who want the changes in their customs, because they have seen how others live and have their rights to choose marriage partners etc. The Arab world is still a male dominated one but woman have made breakthroughs over the years. No one likes change, least of all Arab males!

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 14:57

It is not so long ago that a Asian father murdered his daughter for daring to go against his will,and that was in Birmingham not Bombay....I sometimes think that Islam is becoming a Regime and not a Religion...

sweep


Joined: 11/10/2007
Posts: 241

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 15:12

i would do away with all religions it causes nothing but trouble, wars , deaths and general misery throught the world.



does the good outway bad is it all worth it ?



take it away and how more many millions of people would still be here today ininstead of being perscuted , killed.



its a sad world we live in i just hope my children never grow up to be affected by all this chaos in the big bad world caused by regilious beliefs.

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 15:33

My wife is Sunni Muslim and I am a Christian, her father wrote a letter of no objection to the ministry of interior and we were granted permission to marry, we had the official ceremony at Zacks or as they say the wedding palace and two days later we had a Muslim blessing of the marriage. This was in Kyrgyzstan so it is a little different from the Arab countries.

I have worked and lived in many locations in the Middle East and African Muslim states and never encountered any real problems.



Unfortunately I find the most problems in the UK from my fellow countrymen, I used to be proud to be an Englishmen but it is getting more difficult as the years go by to retain that pride.

kellybelly


Joined: 08/03/2009
Posts: 263

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 18:08

All religion stinks and that's, that.Just to say some stink more than others.

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 19:39

"Men do not have to marry muslim women but women have to marry only muslim men."

This is the worse kind of racism and typical of the double standard practiced by unenlightened countries.

Can you see such a "law" being enforced in Europe? The race relations people would wet their pants.

phylray



Joined: 21/09/2007
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 21:59

I had Muslim boyfriend who asked me to convert to Islam to marry him,

saying that if I converted it would not make any difference to me but if he

left Islam he could be killed! I had not intention of ever leaving the faith of

my fathers (even if I did not believe all that they did) He was Egyptian

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 22:22

Please do not mistake Islam and Arab culture.



In Islam there is no compulsion to marry anyone chosen by their family or parents.



The girl has the absolute right to marry whosoever she wishes to marry and to decline offers of marriage if such offers are made.



All too often people get Islam and particualr cultural traits mixed up!



The Arab culture is patriarchal and as such there is much pressure to conform.



Islam on the other hand is NOT limited to the Arabian world. It extends to all continents and all cultures with nearly 1.5 billion followers.



Many people actually don't know that it is actually PROHIBITED in Islam to force a woman or for that matter a man to marry anyone not of her choice.



In fact in terms of belief itself - there is no compulsion so a priori there can be no compulsion in any act there of!



Hope it helps!

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 23:29

Hi again Moover well the Doha debate dispelled that and the women and and men were from all walks of live from Palestine and the arab world . All educated by the family which could be doctors solictors etc. Men have freedom . They can be homosexual thats ok but the women no choice it seems. I guess a lot may go against it but what is worse a loveless marriage or loose your family. It is awful to make that choice in this day and age xxxx. I think 62% agreed and 38% NO so mixed feelings xx

MsGarnet


Joined: 04/01/2009
Posts: 989

Message Posted:
06/06/2009 23:58

Daisy Dukes - to me, what is worse than arranged or forced marriage is female circumcision - as we speak - billions of female children globally are enduring this heinous, unconscionable, reptilian act that has NO basis in Faith (I agree with whomever said rid the world of Faith - hear hear - more deaths in the name of someone's God than any wars cause, majority of wars have Faith as their cause anyway). A rotten marriage can - with strength, huge sadness, and shedloads of luck - be got out of - once a child's body is mutilated - nothing on this planet can restore their core of femaleness. I cannot understand how mothers who have undergone this foul disfigurement, can forcibly hold down their own their female children, screaming out in pain (rarely, very rarely, any anaesthetic used - oftentimes a rusty, near blunt blade) saying their child won't get married if she doesn't have a piece of her flesh cut off - this is tantamount to madness - we should all do what we can to stop this

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
07/06/2009 00:26

MsGarnet! Absolutely correct! This practice needs to be stopped! It has no basis in any faith and no basis in humanity. It does, however, show the power of culture and traditions which through 'peer' pressure means the practice continues from one generation to the next and mothers who willing put their own daughters through this vile practice. education and awareness is the first step - but we need to move faster!

halffull


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 571

Message Posted:
07/06/2009 00:29

Religion, not a good subject!! Always told never to discuss religion in the pub!!

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
07/06/2009 00:35

It's not religion - it is a practice without faith or reason!

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
07/06/2009 01:03

Mrs garnet now Im so upset . Oh my god i crired so many tears today now this goes on. I cant cope. Stick to my own I guesss xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Fred8


Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
07/06/2009 01:12

Msge 22 give quite clearly the position of Islam as to arranged marraige. For obvious reasons the views of the parents must also be taken into account but are not paramount. In every muslim wedding the imam or anyone offiating the religious aspect of the marraige has to go directly to the girl and ask three times is she accepting the bide and the reply is negative the marraige does not go ahead. This is of course also done in the presence of the girls 'lawyer'. Now if undue pressure is brought on the girl to say yes, than of course this is not Islam. And of course this does happen when parents threaten and cajole the gil into saying yes - but like i said if this happens than it has nothing to do with Islam.

Fred8


Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
07/06/2009 01:13

in thid line should read ".. accepting groom"

zerochlor


Joined: 03/04/2009
Posts: 4024

Message Posted:
07/06/2009 03:44

Message 1



Lilli..Men do not have to marry muslim women but women have to marry only muslim men !





As it happens Lilli i actually know 3 English Christian men who are married to muslim ladies in manchester.



And yes there was lots and lots of Trouble when it happend.



but it soon blew over.



Love conquers All!





















OR SO THEY SAY!

MsGarnet


Joined: 04/01/2009
Posts: 989

Message Posted:
07/06/2009 04:51

Lilli - apologies if talk of this butchery, this torture of females instigated by males has distressed you; suffice to say, without this indefensible cultural/societal ritual being kept in the public arena, it can never be eradicated. The rationale behind this form of repression is that female circumcision is (according to the men who support the practice) practised to "ensure women control their sexual urges". One can only respond by asking "how many women rape men"? 99.9 of rapes are by men. There is a school of thought that we in the West shouldn't interfere in other cultures traditions - I would argue if those traditions are an infringement of human rights, subordinate and mutilate, they are morally reprehensible and it is up to the international community to use its power to stop it. As with so much repression that is carried out against females - it is all about control. To help stop this one should join Amnesty International (for instance) but ultimately it is about education

CyprusChill


Joined: 08/05/2009
Posts: 666

Message Posted:
07/06/2009 05:24

Worked in Doha for three years .. very hot .. twenty years ago.



Very rich state at that time and whilst the oil and gas vain of prosperity prevails ..



Devine tier, Arab No1, Westerner No 2, and Indian etc No 3.



Being second class citizens, to the very very rich, is very odd.



No eye contact, less words.



' Religion ' ----- not many books in the desert. Just pass me down words perhaps.

Why then not more focus for example, the aboriginies or the american indians.



Muslim women in todays society, book or not, will decide on the hardship.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
07/06/2009 10:18

Just turned the TV on and it is being shown again. I will watch it now with different outlook after reading these views xx

CasaCoco


Joined: 06/04/2009
Posts: 95

Message Posted:
07/06/2009 11:41

It's funny how young girls can be 'circumcised' to control their sexual urges, and yet when the men are circumcised, it actually enhances their sensitivity thus making any sexual urges more impossible to control!



From a woman's point of a view, a circumcised man is much nicer, wink, wink but it just goes to show how one-sided the circumcision arguement is in the Muslim world.

CasaCoco


Joined: 06/04/2009
Posts: 95

Message Posted:
07/06/2009 11:42

Oops....that should read 'argument'. Mustn't make any spelling errors

phylray



Joined: 21/09/2007
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
07/06/2009 11:45

I read somewhere that there is less cervical cancer in women of countries

where male circumcision is practised.

Littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
07/06/2009 11:48

As we are guests in this country I quote what a lot of members say " lets try to integrate not dictate things in this lovely place "

phylray



Joined: 21/09/2007
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
07/06/2009 12:59

It doesn't increase sensitivity, quite the reverse. Sexual drive, that's another matter!

roisin


Joined: 19/03/2009
Posts: 358

Message Posted:
07/06/2009 15:46

Just to be clear Female circumcision isn't an Islamic/Moslem practice. It has been carried out for centuries by various countries.Some ancient Pharonic(Egyptian) female mummies have found to be circumcised. Hence the term "Pharonic circumcision". Ancient greeks and Romans circumcised their female slaves. Doctors in Victorian England circumcised female physciatric patients. My friend from Ghana - a Christian was circumcised when she was a teenager. She has so many physcological and medical problems because of it. her sister ran away from home after being told "it was her turn soon". They never saw her again. It is usually women doing this to other females. Males are not involved and are not usually aware of what is actually done. They usually think it is similar to what a male circumcision is. It is the women in these countries that need to stop doing this to their children. easier said than done with all the pressure from mothers/aunts/mother-in-laws etc.

smithy


Joined: 17/07/2008
Posts: 5301

Message Posted:
07/06/2009 15:54

I think its Barbaric and ought to be stopped, h ow can a mother hold her child down to be put through so much pain its worse than torture,

And to think we have a no smacking law in the UK and they get away with this, goes beyond belief

All this to stop sexual activity I would rather become a NUN

sheila

MsGarnet


Joined: 04/01/2009
Posts: 989

Message Posted:
07/06/2009 16:16

I believe Ghana is the one exception where Christians practise this heinous mutilation of female children, most probably because it was a tribal custom carried out BEFORE the Missionaries took Christianity to Africa, ergo - the practice has remained, even with apostates. It is not a predominantely Moslem custom, I have yet to meet a Moslem woman in any Moslem country I have been in, who has undergone this violent assault on her body, yet billions of females worldwide have endured this irreversible mutilation. As regards male circumcision enhancing sensitivity, on the contrary, perceived wisdom has it that because the male member rubs against underwear, jeans et cetera so much, the sensitivity is decreased considerably. Hygiene and less instances of cervical cancer, is cited as a reason for male circumcision, yet - if a male child is taught from the beginning good hygiene - there is NO reason, notwithstanding a medical one, why anyone, male or female - should be circumcised.

smithy


Joined: 17/07/2008
Posts: 5301

Message Posted:
07/06/2009 16:45

MsGarnet

I agree with you 200%

Even though my Mother was Jewish and I have 3 Brothers she would never have allowed any of them to be circumcised they were taught as we all were about hygiene. Years ago they did it thinking that it would stop diseases they forgot about un protected sex.

Plus we could all do with a bit more

sheila

oops now I will be banned

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
07/06/2009 16:49

I'll second that Sheila when will I get it????? ;-)

smithy


Joined: 17/07/2008
Posts: 5301

Message Posted:
07/06/2009 17:05

Hold on Mike all comes to those who wait

and I;m still waiting

sheila

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
07/06/2009 17:16

Carefull now we might start tongues wagging... ;-)

CasaCoco


Joined: 06/04/2009
Posts: 95

Message Posted:
07/06/2009 17:29

Well Philray, my male Arab friends tell me otherwise....I wouldn't know being a woman, but I have to go by what they say.



We seem to have gone off topic....again!

MsGarnet


Joined: 04/01/2009
Posts: 989

Message Posted:
07/06/2009 21:36

Casa - to quote Mandy Rice-Davies "they would, wouldn't they"! How would a circumcised man know what the experience is like for an uncircumcised man, and vice versa (although 24/7 contact with clothing logically would desensitise that area, if only somewhat). Women who are complete can only imagine the horror of being mutilated, the agony of having relations with a partner AFTER having to be cut open BY HIM (NO anaesthetic) to accommodate him, to then give birth in an area that may have been so badly damaged that oftentimes, depending on the severity of the circumcision (partial or complete removal of sexual organs) the woman bleeds to death or her babe dies in the birth canal. Why women continue to force their daughters to endure this barbarism one can only put down to pressure from male relatives (men originated this form of control) cultural pressure - the girls won't be marriageable - total lack of education on any level or because they were mutilated, their girls will suffer too

MsGarnet


Joined: 04/01/2009
Posts: 989

Message Posted:
07/06/2009 21:42

Smithy - the father of my daughter is Moslem, and whilst I respected or accommodated or removed myself (depending on the circumstance) for the majority of the tenets and demands of his Faith, I made it crystal clear, that if we had produced a son, only when it snowed in hell, would I allow my child to have a piece of his body sliced off for absolutely no reason whatsoever. I am relieved we had my beautiful daughter, only because although nothing would have changed me from my stance; life is too short to fight, and I'm not sure it wouldn't have been a cause for much unnecessary ongoing argument and strife in an already difficult life.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
08/06/2009 01:23

Mrs G stand up for your beleifs and stick to them xxxxx

smithy


Joined: 17/07/2008
Posts: 5301

Message Posted:
08/06/2009 06:58

MsGarnet

So proud you bellieved so much that you would have held your ground, if everyone did then the next generation would follow suit.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
08/06/2009 14:56

Just seen the figures of honour killings. Over 500 women killed each year by thier familes. The sadest I heard was a 16 year old girl raped by her own brother. She paid with here life. A lot of these killings are done in western countries . Sad

MsGarnet


Joined: 04/01/2009
Posts: 989

Message Posted:
08/06/2009 18:22

Plus Lilli - what a misnomer - "Honour Killing" - it is THE most dishonorable thing a person can do - kill another because THAT other person has been raped, or fallen in love with someone they don't approve of, or who walks beside a male that is not a relative - et cetera - total absolute utter insanity - madness to the nth degree - these knuckle dragging, reptilian neanderthals also - if they disapprove of a woman secretly educating herself, or for some other spurious 'reason', arrange for that woman to be gang raped (note how it all has a sexual undertone)? these males should be locked up for the rest of their natural lives and the key thrown away - hanging would be too good for them, they MUST be incarcerated, with NO chance of parole - and hopefully live long, boring, lives - doing hard labour six days a week, for money, and EVERY PENNY of that money, be given to their victims dependents (if there are any) or given to Charity...........to put virginity ABOVE virtue? certifiably mad

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
08/06/2009 18:37

You are so right MsG. It beggars beleif in this 21st century. Sorry the figure was 5000 not 500 . This plight should be more highlighted until its forces to stop xx

HappyBoots


Joined: 28/05/2009
Posts: 74

Message Posted:
08/06/2009 19:20

it's very scary that this cruelty goes on in the supposedly enlightened 21 st Century. When will it end I wonder?