Turkish micro state in Cyprus

niftyduo


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 230

Message Posted:
08/06/2009 08:49

What a good idea see... http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=177444&bolum=102

niftyduo


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 230

Message Posted:
08/06/2009 09:42

This idea, a referendum by December, the TC's vote YES, the GC's vote NO is, I believe, the strategy of the current government. After a second yes vote Intenational recognition must follow.

tommy13


Joined: 29/04/2009
Posts: 979

Message Posted:
08/06/2009 10:41

nice ! this looks promising ... one way or another recognition is nigh long live trnc

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
08/06/2009 10:50

Looks good to me,are places like Monaco and Malta classed as "micro states",

Paul.

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
08/06/2009 10:53

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/microstate



Just located this.

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
08/06/2009 11:06

Looks good,so leys hope the GC's play true to form....TRNC recognition here we come!

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
08/06/2009 11:10

Shhhhhh.....don't say it too loud.



If the GC's hear this they'll vote YES just for spite !

Cyprusraider


Joined: 08/04/2009
Posts: 99

Message Posted:
08/06/2009 12:50

Exactly!! What IF both sides vote yes??????

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
08/06/2009 13:17

..but I thought "TRNC" was a "state" already.. ;)

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
08/06/2009 13:22

In a state mate.

martinev


Joined: 24/10/2008
Posts: 320

Message Posted:
08/06/2009 21:28

Sounds too good to be true !! But I live in hope !!

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
08/06/2009 21:31

What an excellent common sense article.What a surprise though that it hasnt had many hits,

Paul.

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
08/06/2009 21:33

c(h)ronos

Message 7, you have just made me laugh.

niftyduo


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 230

Message Posted:
09/06/2009 17:30

I thought the link in the opening message would have more reaction

mamachina


Joined: 22/11/2008
Posts: 730

Message Posted:
09/06/2009 17:35

Ive just been on and read the article- if only! What are the chances I wonder of such a thing happening -I fancy living in a Monaco type state!! We've enough casinos anyway to qualify. But as someone else said what are the chances of both sides saying 'yes' - ugh!

wanderer


Joined: 05/02/2009
Posts: 1653

Message Posted:
09/06/2009 19:05

Quite an interesting read on the independence issue in Kosovo and its recognition by a lot of countries 60 UN states Russia is against it probably because of vassal countries that want away from its control



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
09/06/2009 21:40

re msg 16



>> Russia is against it probably because of vassal countries that want away from its control <<



Russia is against recognition of Kosovo - as is the "rump" RoC - because they support their Orthodox "brothers" .. Kosovo is VERY important to Orthodox Christians...



Russia might eventually agree if the west recognises Trans Dniester ( part of Moldovia ) and the breakaway Georgian Provinces - which should BE independent as it was only Stalin - a Georgian that made them part of Georgia...

Praxandros


Joined: 09/06/2009
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
10/06/2009 08:33

The Republic of Cyprus has joined the EU in 2004, as the single legal entity in Cyprus, and on behalf of the entire territory of the island except the areas of the 2 British military bases. This is stipulated in the treaty of accession of Cyprus with the EU and with each one of the remaining 26 EU member states. The EU and each one of its EU member states are bound by the treaty of accession to accept and recognize the whole of Cyprus as de jure part of the RoC sovereignty and jurisdiction. This reality cannot be changed without amendment of the treaty of accession, which (to happen) requires the approval of the EU and that of each separate member state, including the RoC itself. This means that it is both legally and politically impossible for the EU and any EU member state alone to ever recognize a separate state entity in Cyprus, such as the “TRNC.”

Praxandros


Joined: 09/06/2009
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
10/06/2009 08:33

Continued….



Considering the fact that at least two EU members, UK and France, are also permanent members of the UN Security Council, and thus obliged and bound by the EU treaty of accession and their obligations towards a fellow EU member state to disallow (veto) the recognition of a separate entity in Cyprus; and considering also the fact that neither Russia, nor China will allow it due to their own reasons; you may all figure out what probability there is for the “TRNC” to ever become recognized, with or without a solution. Close to zero! Unlike Kosovo or any other case you may have in mind, the international regal and political framework in relation to Cyprus is such that leaves no room for such a possibility.

Praxandros


Joined: 09/06/2009
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
10/06/2009 08:33

Continued….



Some of you say Turkey will actively promote the recognition of the “TRNC” should a solution fail this time. That is a joke, because this is precisely what Turkey has been doing for the last 35 years, be it secretly or publicly, however it has failed to achieve it and has come to a point of realizing that it is almost impossible. Not even fellow Islamic or Turkish affiliated states such as Azerbaijan etc, have not opted for such a choice, despite Turkey’s continues efforts. It is unlikely that any country on this planet will consider to against such an EU internal affair, i.e. concerning EU’s legally binding policy relationship with itself and one of its member states, for the sake of Turkey, and that includes the USA itself. The EU, as an institution, is far too important as a soft economic and political superpower, than Turkey may ever be!

Praxandros


Joined: 09/06/2009
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
10/06/2009 08:33

Continued….



Sorry to have burst some peoples’ bubbles in here, but it is no good to build and maintain illusions, out of sheer wishful thinking assumptions. What you should all wish is for a political solution to be found, either this or another time; for there is no alternative to the salvation of some of your problems, plus those of the TC community and those of Turkey’s EU aspirations. This is what you should all be doing, rather than secretly hoping for a failure of the current talks so that there might be an opportunity for the “TRNC’’ to become recognized. There isn’t such a possibility.

Harold2555



Joined: 19/04/2008
Posts: 1139

Message Posted:
10/06/2009 08:40

Praxandros



Well argued points but as always the power of international pressure is ignored. Cyprus is a minnow to the EU, and whilst it is nice and cosy to think that once your in your in and your voice is equally important as the founder states, in reality if those states get fed up with ROC they will soon have the treaty of Accession changed and force such a change on the ROC.



I'm not saying its going to happen, just that it would be easy for it to happen.



Let's hope that Cypriots can find their own solution.



Harold2555

Praxandros


Joined: 09/06/2009
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
10/06/2009 09:01

Harrold, sorry to tell you this, but Holland is equally a small member state in comparison to the bigger EU member states (there is no institutional distinction between EU founding new coming member states,) yet, the EU constitutional treaty failed to go through simply because it (Holland) voted against it, despite the fact that all other member states approved it. The same hold true for the Helsinki treaty, which also failed because Ireland (an equally relatively small state) voted against it, and despite the fact that all other 26 member states have approved it.

Praxandros


Joined: 09/06/2009
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
10/06/2009 09:02

Continued….



Sorry Harold, but Cyprus (RoC) might be one of the smallest countries in the EU, but still holds some key veto cards; not to mention that in such an issue like changing the treaty of accession, it will not be alone but will also have at least Greece, France and even the UK on its side. I mentioned the UK, because it also has other interests and treaty obligations in Cyprus, in relation to its 1960 Treaty of Establishment co-signatory Status which established its Military Base rights here, but which (1960 treaty) also prohibits partition of Cyprus. If the UK violates the terms of the 1960 treaty of establishment, besides attempting to alter the EU treaty of accession, will also automatically render the status of its military bases in Cyprus on thin air, and without any legal foundations.

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
10/06/2009 09:35

prax me old bubble,come to terms with it, you are greedy so and so's, and i think you are about to loose the battel and war

niftyduo


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 230

Message Posted:
10/06/2009 09:50

Very interesting discussion, this is Cyprus44 at its best. I suppose it could be argued that TRNC was taken in to the EU illegally without the consent of this region. No power of argument alone is going to grind it into non-existence. The Greeks would like to recover the whole island but the harder they push, the less likely is this to happen. The ultimate solution if no ground is given is that it becomes part of Turkey.

Praxandros


Joined: 09/06/2009
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
10/06/2009 09:52

I am glad of the fact you do not even seem to beilive your (above) own very words.... :_)

Praxandros


Joined: 09/06/2009
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
10/06/2009 09:53

above post was for catalkoy ...kid, in msg 25

Harold2555



Joined: 19/04/2008
Posts: 1139

Message Posted:
10/06/2009 10:48

Prax



The SBA's are safe all the time they are feeding inteligence on a volatile region directly into the CIA. The treaty of Establishment could be argued to be breached by the sign up to the EU. Political expediency will rule over treaties in the future as it has done in the past.



I am not by the way saying that there is any legal difference between founder states and the rest but he who pays the piper calls the tune.



H

Praxandros


Joined: 09/06/2009
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
10/06/2009 15:08

Harold, as far as I am concerned, you are free and entitled to keep hoping. As they say "...hope dies last!"

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
10/06/2009 20:52

Hi All,



I agree with Harold 2555. There is no denying the will of The International community.

If The TCs vote again for an agreement that has the blessing of The International community and The Gcs

backheel it again, then there will be every possibility of Internationally approved (if only by majority) Microstate.

Where the TCs need to be careful, is not to agree to too much, prior to putting it to a referendum. Using Annan as

a basis for Land and Property settlement, seems a good basis.



Just my views, thats all.



wyn

Praxandros


Joined: 09/06/2009
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
11/06/2009 01:20

Wynyardman (message 31,) the last time I checked, and unlike the case of the Annan plan which was basically the product -as the results of the referenda had shown- of one-sided arbitration by Alvaro de Soto and his associates, the ones negotiating towards reaching an agreement to be put to the Cypriot people for approval, are only the leaders of the two communities. This means that nothing will be put in referenda this time, which the two community leaders will not agree by their own free will first. Do you seriously believe that the GC leader, Mr. Christofias, will agree to a comprehensive settlement package which he knows the GC community will not possibly be able to accept in a referendum, or one that he will not be able to defend and promote himself to the people? Do you seriously believe that Mr. Christofias is so stupid as to put such a bad a solution plan to the GC community in a referendum, which the GC community will feel compelled to say “no” again?

Praxandros


Joined: 09/06/2009
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
11/06/2009 01:22

Continued….



Unlike the last time in which Papadopoulos gave a blank check to Kofi Annan to conduct his arbitration, and its product to be put to the people in a referendum, this time no plan produced by outsiders will ever make it to the referendums, but only whatever the two leaders will first agree with.



So that next time you know what is actually going on this time, when you will again decide you know enough to talk about referendums and who will say “yes” or “no,” and what might possibly follow afterwards!

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
11/06/2009 07:58

Praxandros,



Thank you for your opinion which I have noted with interest.



I too, am entitled to an opinion, and I remain of the view that a" settlement" will be reached which will carry approval of

the majority of The International Community. I am basing my opinion on the views expressed by President Obamah.

Former Prime Minister(Special Envoy to the Middle East) Tony Blair and The British Foreign Secretary David Milliband.



Now given that the Special Envoy sleeps with lead Counsel on The Orams case, he does have something of an insider

knowledge.



The former seem to be linking a solution to the Cyprus problem, to Turkeys eventual relationship with the EC

which they seem to consider is critical, in terms of an eventual settlement to The Middle East Conflict. Now that my friend

IS a problem for the International Community!



Remember that same Special Envoy bought peace to Northern Ireland. Another impossible situation.!



Just my view, thats all.



Wynyardman.

twoexpats


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 189

Message Posted:
11/06/2009 08:11

Wyn, are you sure of your facts?..................I heard they slept in seperate beds!

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
11/06/2009 08:24

twoexpats,



I must admit its all Greek to me!



wyn

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
11/06/2009 11:40

Dear Praxandros



re msg 32



Welcome to the forum- I wonder do I know you ?!





I'm very sorry you seem to have adopted the line that:



Annan was a "foreign inspired abomination"



I'm still waiting to hear of the workable alternative Tassos was telling us of... one based on EU principles.. I'm quite sure history will one day show the NO was a tactical howler by the GCs..



Don't get me wrong.. I know many GCs woke up in July to two different sets of wars - and innocent folk lost the loved ones, homes, etc., but it had been going on in Cyprus for years before on a smaller scale - with TCs losing out.



Your current govt cannot ignore that the ECHR ruled that Turkey's IPC should be a local remedy and should have been ENCOURAGING its citizens to pile in to test the fairness of the Commission - as historically TR's "offers" have been very poor - and restitution confined to unused land. Either TR was going to play by the rules or it wasn't how will we know?



Like I said..

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
11/06/2009 11:45

msg 37 (cont)



Like I said - Welcome..



Please ignore the "sun reader" mentality of some posters - it is good to hear all sides..

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
11/06/2009 11:57

Hi mmmmmmmmmm,



Good post, well put.

I suspect our new member will have some difficulty responding in a logical, coherent manner, having seen some of his posts on one of the GC BBs.

Praxandros


Joined: 09/06/2009
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
11/06/2009 23:06

Re msg 37

“Welcome to the forum- I wonder do I know you ?!”



I am not sure if we know each other …perhaps yes, since we live in a small world. Thanks for welcoming me, although I suspect I won’t be here for too long!



“I'm very sorry you seem to have adopted the line that: Annan was a "foreign inspired abomination"”



I wouldn’t say the Annan plan started as a “foreign inspired abomination,” but it certainly ended being one! You see, when one refers to the Annan plan, should also specify which version of it he has in mind. The approach taken in the initial versions in 2002, changed in later versions by gradually and crafty altering some key issues that dramatically shifted the balance in favor of the Turkish side. I can easily prove this to any well intending person, but since it is now void and dead, and since now the two leaders are negotiating on a new platform for an agreed comprehensive settlement, I feel it is pointless to waste any time on the A-plan.

Praxandros


Joined: 09/06/2009
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
11/06/2009 23:07

msg 40 (cont.)

The Greek Cypriot side did a very big mistake in trusting Kofi Annan’s impartiality and giving him a blank check to do his arbitration in NY, for the final version of his plan. The very fact that the Turkish side (AKP government and the military) did a sudden 180 degree shift in their position regarding the plan, from being completely negative to it and refusing to present it to a referendum, up until January 2004, to one in which they became ready to accept all of Kofi Annan’s terms in the middle of the NY submit, and where they also called on Mr. Denktash to either obey their directive or leave the meeting and become replaced; and this only after Erdogan had met G. Bush in Washington and Kofi Annan in Paris the previous two weeks and obviously got the promises he needed regarding the type of arbitration that Annan and his associates would have carried forward; should have been enough reason for the GC side to become alarmed and avoid the trap that was being set up.

Praxandros


Joined: 09/06/2009
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
11/06/2009 23:08

msg 41 (cont.)



The name of the game, at the time, was not how to solve the Cyprus issue in a fair, balanced, logical and long last fashion, but instead on how to wrap it up in favor of Turkey’s EU accession date, and without at the same time sacrificing many of Turkey’s illegitimate fait accomplices in Cyprus so that Turkey’s military would have been able to give Erdogan the green light he needed.

Praxandros


Joined: 09/06/2009
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
11/06/2009 23:08

msg 42 (cont.)



“I'm still waiting to hear of the workable alternative Tassos was telling us of... one based on EU principles.. I'm quite sure history will one day show the NO was a tactical howler by the GCs..”



Surely, adopting a “solution” in which property owners would have been required by law to massively forgo 2/3 of their property rights, in an arbitrary fashion and for the sake of securing an apartheid state of affairs in Cyprus, and only in order to vindicate the Turkish thesis for an ethnically pure and exclusively owned Turkish mini “nation-state” on 55% of Cyprus’s coastlines, i.e. for mere political expediency reasons, or as the final version of the A-plan provided; is not a very European (EU) type of approach, or one based on any EU principles and/or values!

Praxandros


Joined: 09/06/2009
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
11/06/2009 23:09

msg 43 (cont.)





Adopting a solution in which other EU member state nationals will basically have more rights in all or any part of Cyprus, than Cypriots themselves will be able to enjoy in certain parts of their own country, simply because they originate from one ethnic group or the other, or as the final A-plan provided; is not a very European (EU) type of approach, or one based on any EU principles and/or values!

Praxandros


Joined: 09/06/2009
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
11/06/2009 23:10

msg 44 (cont.)



I suggest you search and find the constitution of the “TC constituent state,” as it would have been allowed to be adopted as part of the Annan plan comprehensive settlement, and tell me how much in line it was /is with EU principles and values; and how much it took into consideration the political, cultural and social rights of the Greek Cypriots that would have chosen to resettled back into their now occupied homes and villages, in an area as big as 30% of Cyprus (and 55% of its coastlines,) and in which they (GCs) had existed for thousands of years –sometimes as the single ethnic group that constituted its indigenous population. Basically they would have been allowed to enjoy as many and even less social, cultural and civil rights than those the Kurds of Turkey do currently enjoy, and for which the EU is at odds with Turkey, under the incorporation of the kemalist ideology within the boundaries of one of the federative states of an EU member state.

Praxandros


Joined: 09/06/2009
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
11/06/2009 23:11

msg 45 (cont.)



Certainly, all of the above would have been allowed to pass through, should the GC side have not reject the A-plan; and because at that time Cyprus was not yet an EU member state, they would all have become part of the EU primarily law, as the “pre-existing” EU accession state of affairs. Certainly now that Cyprus has already become an EU member state, as a whole, the above are out of discussion for the EU and the GC side, as they contradict with the EU acqui and cannot become part of its primary law. Unless of course if the treaty of accession is cancelled out, Cyprus exits the EU, and then a new treaty of accession is negotiated from scratch so that Cyprus will be allowed to re-enter the EU as a completely new entity. You see, fait accomplices is not only Turkey that knows so well how establish (with the use of force,) but also the GC side does (with the use of political craftiness ;) and, tough luck to all those crying wolf now!

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
11/06/2009 23:22

Praxandros,



Are you admitting that you Greeks blew it the last time?



Well you seem to have one more opportunity to live in peace with your fellow Cypriots.



Guess Its your call!



wynyardman

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
11/06/2009 23:42

Praxandros



"The very fact that the Turkish side (AKP government and the military) did a sudden 180 degree shift in their position regarding the plan, from being completely negative to it and refusing to present it to a referendum, up until January 2004, to one in which they became ready to accept all of Kofi Annan’s terms in the middle of the NY submit,"



"should have been enough reason for the GC side to become alarmed and avoid the trap that was being set up."





Using that logic there will never be a settlement, as obviously from what you say,if the Turkish side agree with a settlement plan, that will be reason enough for the Greek side not to agree to it.



Catch 22.

If the Turks dont agree to the terms ,then no agreement by there side.

If the Turks do agree to terms ,then no agreement by our side .cos for the Turks to like it, we must be losing too much.



Wish this sentiment was forthcoming earlier. Could have prevented Talat wasting his time all these months

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
11/06/2009 23:58

Talat has been dangling by a string since last September when the talks re-started.The gcs will never make any concessions towards the tcs and they are loving every minute of it.Two states will be the outcome surely everyone knows this now.Bring on the Micro state which is what this post was originally about,

Paul.

andy-f


Joined: 03/05/2009
Posts: 1256

Message Posted:
12/06/2009 00:02

hear hear paul, but i hope we all dont have to drive nissan micras!

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
12/06/2009 00:06

Nowt wrong with nissans mate,

Paul.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
12/06/2009 00:13

Oh well



I suppose thats it! Hardly worth bothering any more then! May as well write off my investment!



Guess thats Mr Talat and me in the dole queue!



wynge