Two UK Citizens face extradition to Cyprus

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
17/06/2009 13:42

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/essex/8104769.stm



It is relevant to the Apostolides v Orams case .. It demonstrates that UK Courts could extradite UK Citizens - it will be interesting to see what happens - particularly as the Judge had ruled :



"it was impossible to say the Cypriot trial process as a whole had been flawed and violated their right to a fair trial."

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
17/06/2009 13:47

Mark, excuse my naievity but hasn't the UK courts always had the power to extradite it's citizens?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
17/06/2009 14:01

Dear Bill,



re msg 2



You seem to have the wrong end of the stick.. my point was that the the Court could still extradite - even though some reckon the RoC Courts aren't "fair"..

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
17/06/2009 14:17

Hi mmmmmmmmmmm,



We are talking a criminal case of manslaughter here, not a civil property dispute. A little perspective wouldn't hurt old stick.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
17/06/2009 15:26

Dear "TRNC"Vaughan



re msg 4



May be you've "missed" it but we have had recent threads where:



1/ I've referred to RoC Courts NOT sending back THEIR Citizens for trial re UK Tax "issues"



2/ The RoC have CRIMINAL laws re dealing with GC owned Properties - YES - or NO? So extradition IS a possibility -yes? "Fairness" of RoC courts doesn't seem to be a defence.. - yes?







3/ If Mr Apostolides case is followed through and the Orams' were ordered to cough up in the UK - Can't a CIVIL debt be enforced by a Criminal court ?! There is NO dispute, Vaughan - Judge Jacks has confirmed the property belongs to Mr Apostolides, yes?

jay76


Joined: 17/07/2008
Posts: 532

Message Posted:
17/06/2009 16:00

manslaughter and property are a million miles apart as would the very very unlikly extradition procedure on property issue.

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
17/06/2009 16:12

Hi mmmmmmmmmm,



Please help me with a paradox here, brought to light by your observation 2/.



What is defined as a crime in one country is not necessarily a crime in another, even if they are both in the EU. Is this not the case?



Simple silly example - In Germany some Autobahns have no speed limits. Question - Could a German exceeding the speed limit in the UK sucessfully claim an exemption?

No.

Similarly, would a UK driver living in Germany be charged with speeding by the UK police and subject to extradition?

No.



It is clear that under certain similar circumstances speeding is an offence in some countries but not in others. It is also clear that those offences are only the business of the courts in those countries.



My point? Dealing in GC owned property in the RoC may be a crime in the RoC, but it isn't in the UK.

ilovekibris


Joined: 18/05/2009
Posts: 394

Message Posted:
17/06/2009 17:18

Maybe it's just me Vaughan, but have you understood this properly? It's not about what is a crime somewhere but isn't somewhere else. It's about observing the laws of a country when in that country and offenders being extradited back to that country to face trial.

In this case buying or selling property in the north of Cyprus is a criminal offence under the laws of the Republic of Cyprus, punishable by several years in jail. So we have a potential situation of hundreds of Brits being wanted criminals when at large in the UK or Cyprus.

ilovekibris


Joined: 18/05/2009
Posts: 394

Message Posted:
17/06/2009 17:20

Msg 8 NB:

This is all academic to those who have bought or sold legal pre-74 title and have registered the transaction with the Republic of Cyprus land registry in Nicosia. People in this category have nothing to fear.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
17/06/2009 17:44

Dear "TRNC"Vaughan



re msg 7



As ILK has pointed out you appear to be "confused".. We are discussing if the UK will extradite UK citizens for breaking the laws of RoC..



>>Dealing in GC owned property in the RoC may be a crime in the RoC, but it isn't in the UK.<<



It doesn't HAVE to be, though, does it ?

jay76


Joined: 17/07/2008
Posts: 532

Message Posted:
17/06/2009 17:49

Has anybody been arrested whom have entered the roc, thinking about it i have been to the roc lots of times and nothing been said or done with ref to the "it is an offence to buy property in the north crap". 7 years what a load of twaddle.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
17/06/2009 18:26

Dear Jay76



re msg 11



It does have to be said that it seems strange that no-one has been charged under these offences - but an offence it remains. It is posted on the UK Foreign office website as a warning...



Now it COULD be a "scare tactic" ! ....

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 13:13

ILK and mmmmm,



msg 8.



" observing the laws of a country when in that country and offenders being extradited back to that country to face trial."



As you say - "When in that country." Whilst you are in RoC it may be a crime, so arrest them there and then. Once they leave your country they are subject to the laws of the country they go to and not yours anymore.



I think that's all it is - a scare tactic. This isn't a long drawn out high cost civil thing like Orams, it's easy:

RoC courts to UK courts, "Please extradite Mr. Bloggs to RoC for something which you don't recognise as a crime."

I don't think so.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 13:30

re msg 13



>>Whilst you are in RoC it may be a crime, so arrest them there and then. Once they leave your country they are subject to the laws of the country they go to and not yours anymore. <<



"Spin" how you like Vaughan, but right now the RoC *is* all of Cyprus - it's just that the govt. can't exercise effective control...



Tell it to the UK Judge and hope he doesn't send you to the RoC ;)



Seriously, I seem to remember European Arrest Warrants were going to be served on certain Estate Agents in 2005....! ...

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 14:47

mmmmmmm,



The other country I was referring to was the UK. I'd like to see how an EAW for dealing in GC property went down in UK. Laughed out of court, no doubt. Probably why there's never been one served.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 16:04

a spirited collection of postings with perhaps something to be said for each side

but it does not auger well for any agreed settlement/compensation/gurantees deal,

which would render this type of mass debate somewhat irrelevant...

but I wonder how many ever believed in real signatures on dotted lines as it were?

wanderer


Joined: 05/02/2009
Posts: 1653

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 16:37

http://www.starint.net/

Interesting one where no warrants needed as arrested and charged in the south genuine property fraud



There are also the developers having long mortgages on sites that they have developed and sold on to innocent purchasers and the deeds do not become available for 6 8 or 10 years till the developer settles the mortgages

All apok whilst property is selling but once the bubble burst as it has now builders cannot service the loans and the banks go to the innocent purchasers.

This is wrong and the builders should not be allowed to do deals like that and the Banks in Cyprus should not be allowed to claim on the mortgages as they know well what is going on Cyprus is not the USA or even the UK its a small town the greedy banks are party to the fraud

wanderer


Joined: 05/02/2009
Posts: 1653

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 16:38

part 2

There was another interesting article but I cannot find the link where a UK citizen has taken the ROC to court over his property in the South. ROC said he could have the property when there was a political solution the European court has told the ROC to settle and stop messing the man about .Although he was born in Cyprus he left before independence and became a British citizen so he was never a Cyprus citizen as ROC did not exist when he left

The point of all these examples is to show that the first crime is simple and easy to deal with

The second is down to poor legislation and poor banking allowing these to go on

The third just shows that it will keep on rolling on unless there is a political solution

The courts cannot resolve it one by one .Each side is right and the other is wrong

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 16:52

re msg 15



>The other country I was referring to was the UK.<<



I've read and re-read the post and it doesn't read like that.. but as you know the subject is the ROC law and if UK citizens can be extradited..



>>I'd like to see how an EAW for dealing in GC property went down in UK. Laughed out of court, no doubt. Probably why there's never been one served.<<



Well the UK have had to deal with much more trivial ones from Polish courts - for things like Traffic offence fines going unpaid - back in PL....



Why do you think they would "laugh" at a much more serious charge... ?



I am of the opinion that these offences are designed to scare off - rather than be implemented - You can't be "done" anyway - your "transaction" is"ancient history ;)

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 17:25

Dear Andre_514



re msg 16







You are beginning to sound like Waz !..and Mr Denktash snr ( you can take it as a compliment....I might not think the same ! )



>>but it does not auger well for any agreed settlement/compensation/gurantees deal<<



Your "hero" didn't wasn't "conciliatory" until TR was told by the ECHR to pay up in the Tina Lozidou case ( non use of her home in Kyrenia / Girne district) ..



His son announced the "progressive" move to open the gates to allow ALL Cypriots to cross the gren line for the first time in nearly THIRTY years - only because of COURT ACTION by a TC Doctor at the ECHR against TR



It seems pretty clear to me that Court actions have driven on concessions ...

Codger


Joined: 03/04/2009
Posts: 153

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 17:44

ilovekibris



I believe you forgot to add in your message 9 that the law you are referring to, also only applies to transactions after the 20th October 2006. So maybe there are far fewer ROC deemed ' criminals ' at large than you thought.

Unless of course you are referring to a ROC property law of which I am not aware.



Codger

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 17:48

good point mark I see your argument that the north and turkey

have been made to bend on a number of issues

and one would imagine they are therefore suseptible to pressure



but I feel I can say without fear of contradiction they will not give way on security basics

also it is a popular tactic to appear to agree on smaller things so as to seem concilliatory

the downside of all this is that it stokes up distrust of the south and their manoeverings



not that I'm claiming that is why the ubp won the election,

that was said to be due to issues nearer home...

CyprusChill


Joined: 08/05/2009
Posts: 666

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 19:47

Legal complexities, point of order and court, the case of anon v anon, you said he said, i heard i read, i refer to and reference with, you and him and it, crime and warrant and law, ..... and and and .....

The GC's, just how much do they want then ? and the answer being ?

Not much change or progress since pre 74 it would appear, perhaps 2044 would be a better time to ask such questions.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 22:14

cypruschill,



yes quite so but these things are very dear to mark's heart



as you suggest there is no chance of all this kerfuffle changing anything on the ground

but "talk" of it is damaging to confidence I grant, just as I am doing now (oops!)



I do remain puzzled as to why this is such a burning issue for mark

since I appear to be, as he suggested, too thick and too lazy to find his explanation



he once had a place in limassol:

I can make a shrewd guess that since he is a communications expert

he would use his contacts after "reunification" to grow his business (as if)

I may be very wide of the "mark" again though, no pun intended

....an international man of mystery and imagination that is for sure



as for all the "reunification" gobledegook, this warrants inverted commas more than trnc

karakum5c



Joined: 18/03/2008
Posts: 1021

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 22:24

The UKs/US national interest is not to upset Turkey as it is a key ally in the war on terror, in such cases the courts will always follow the dictates of Government. There will be no extraditions or serious legal actions allowed because it would upset a key ally. Those that think otherwise should get real and join the rest of us in the real world.

AnthonySmith


Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 455

Message Posted:
19/06/2009 07:26

Re: the Orams case. They live in the TRNC, not the RoC. On paper people can talk all they like about it, but in practice it is not the same.

The UK courts can send Atkinson and Binnington back - extradite - because they are two countries with an extradition treaty.

There is no such treaty with the TRNC and there has never been any call for the extradition of the Orams. They live here a lot of the year.

Linking the two cases is simple semantics. But then the GCs and their sympathisers do that.

If you tell a lie many times, not only do you believe it's true but so do other people.

Geoff1131MK11


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 396

Message Posted:
19/06/2009 08:01

Much of what is put onto this forum is becoming tiresome.



1. If and when there is a settlement we will all have to adhere to the official stance.



2. If that means we have to pay compensation, we will have to pay compensation.



3. If that means we have to give back the property to the original owner, then we have to do that.



4. If the deal is done so that we can continue to live here, then so be it.





No-one knows for sure what the outcome will be. So i for one intend to enjoy my life until the powers that be tell me what they have decided i have to do.

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
19/06/2009 09:28

Hi mmmmmmm,



Interesting that you introduce Poland into the equation.

Were these EWA's really for traffic offence unpaid fines? If so I misunderstood that EWA's were only used in cases were the possible gaol sentence exceeded a certain number of years, which RoC increased the "dealing in GC property" offence to. If an unpaid traffic fine merits a gaol sentence in Poland I'd be very surprised. I would also ask whether these EWA's you refer to were issued against GB nationals or PL nationals residing in the UK?

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
21/06/2009 21:26

geoff,



I sympathise believe me



in my imagination "eyeball rollers" react with exasperation to all the repetitive postings



but just one tiny comment if you will bear with me though:



you said "if we have to pay compensation...we will"



not quite



before you'd pay anyone anything there will need to be set up a huge administrative structure



and an appeals procedure into the bargain: could well be a twenty-year project,



just one of the many reasons I believe it is extremely unlikely to ever happen as you portray it



but your intention to enjoy life "meanwhile" is absolutely spot on!

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
21/06/2009 22:06

Dear Andre_514 re msg 24



I note - despite 5 lengthy previous replies - you still indulge in tying to explain to other my motives .. perhpas it might be courteous to refer back to previous posts..



.No "mystery" then.. Did/ do you work for "Pravda" ?;)



As you know the only "reunification" is likely new state with autonomous regions..



DearAntonySmith



1/ the UN/ UK/ EU / ECHR aren't "sympathisers" - they just respect the convention on recognition of "states".. As it stands now RoC *is* the whole of CY and "TRNC" is just Turkey's ( failed) attempt to keep a presence on the island .



<>



I couldn't agree more.. I'm just surprised you fell for it..

lesshaw42



Joined: 21/01/2009
Posts: 101

Message Posted:
22/06/2009 00:01

the two in question were cleared after a fair trial,but the greeks decided to overturn the verdict made by 12 persons on an independent jury,je south...ust goes to show you cant even get a fair trial in th

lesshaw42



Joined: 21/01/2009
Posts: 101

Message Posted:
22/06/2009 00:06

the two in question were cleared after a fair trial,but the greeks decided to overturn the verdict made by 12 persons on an independent jury,just goes to show you cant even get a fair trial in the south....

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
22/06/2009 19:31

Dear Les,



it would appear that the learned Judge either has more info than you or I or ihe is in the wrong job

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
23/06/2009 03:13

Dear "TRNC" Vaughan



re msg 28



http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/oct/20/immigration-extradition-poland-lithuania-law



>> I would also ask whether these EWA's you refer to were issued against GB nationals or PL nationals residing in the UK?<<



PL nationals living in the UK - and I got it wrong - it wasn't traffic offences - but you'll get the Trivial Drift !

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
23/06/2009 10:16

mark message 30





says the only reunification is a new state with autonomous reagions...



the republic of "cyprus" leaders have quite understandably given any new state the thumbs-down





how autonomous is autonomous?



let the north continue as a wynn-style microstate? why on earth should they agree to that?





the ominously blacked-out talks:



seventy-five percent "in the bag", or the usual conflict between the two sides



oops did I let the the cat out of the bag?

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
23/06/2009 10:49

Hi mmmmmm,



As you say in msg 34 these EWAs were for foreign nationals in UK. It would be interesting to see what the UK courts reaction would be to an EWA from PL for a UK national to be extradited to PL for a trivial offence. Probably a refusal based on it not being serious enough. It then just depends on the UK definition of "not serious enough" to decide whether CY would get an EWA enforced for GC property dealing. I suspect CY won't try for an EWA on these grounds as a refusal often offends and would give entirely the wrong impression that the GCs precisely don't want to give.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
23/06/2009 12:57

Re msg 36



"TRNC"Vaughan



>> I suspect CY won't try for an EWA on these grounds as a refusal often offends and would give entirely the wrong impression<<



You MIGHT be right.. ! What ever happened to the EWAs that were going to be issued against a British couple who set up an estate agency ?!



http://www.lobbyforcyprus.org/press/press2005/cyma_200405_arrestwarrant.htm



REALLY, I don't know...

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
23/06/2009 14:12

Hi mmmmmm,



Interesting that they state:

"He said it was now up to the police to ask for a European arrest warrant and put him on a list so that if he crossed into the government-controlled areas he would be arrested."

I thought they could be arrested in the g-c areas without an EWA?

I suspect:

Either the police didn't ask for the EWA, or

They did but the court declined to issue it, or

The court did issue it but the UK authorities rejected it.

The facts aren't right and I therefore suspect that this is yet more bluster and nonsense. I think that until we actually see an EWA for dealing in GC property exectued and the "accused" deported to RoC we should disregard it.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
23/06/2009 16:32

perhaps I don't fully grasp the process but could it be that all the warm air

floated athwart the green line about defining what we mean by truth,

just who is entitled to write the history, ethnic cleansing, restitution, compensation, ownership,

renditions as per this thread and even the real signifance if any of certain official-looking edicts,

is not really what it appears to be?



but instead muddying the waters to put people off buying post-1974 trnc title:

and preserving the "idea" of ownership in self-deluded brains as well as on printed ephemera



I'm not going into the whys and wherefores since every dispute there ever was had several facets

and the much-puffed case for the republic of "cyprus" has many glaring contradiction inherant in it

but following the logic of no smoke without fire, people will be put off and our enemies will rejoice



surely not?



c'mon you shadey well-wishers and altruistic upholders of righteousness let's hear your defence

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
24/06/2009 16:31

Dear Andre_514



re msg 35



>>the republic of "cyprus" leaders have quite understandably given any new state the thumbs-down <<



Could you point out WHERE Mr Christofias has said this, recently ?



>>how autonomous is autonomous? <<







That's what the talks are about.. how much "autonomy" do the TCs have, now?



re 39



>>perhaps I don't fully grasp the process<<



I doubt any of us know all the ins and outs - it is supposed to be "secret"..



>>just who is entitled to write the history, ethnic cleansing, restitution, compensation, ownership, <<

1/ History - always subjective, no?

2/ ethnic cleansing - truth and reconciliation committees?

3/ restitution, compensation, ownership - all part of the overall plan for a settlement - I'm sure.. hence the time being taken..



cont

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
24/06/2009 16:35

cont from 40



>>preserving the "idea" of ownership in self-deluded brains<<



Any time you feel like challenging the ECHR .... then we can discuss "self -delusion" ... what is MORE important is how to deal with restitution / comp issue - as "ownership isn't questioned internationally - now WHAT was that about being delusional?! ;)



>>c'mon you shadey well-wishers and altruistic upholders of righteousness let's hear your defence<<



Are you addressing a reflective surface?!... the question would appear to be - at the least - rhetorical .. :(

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
24/06/2009 16:38

Re msg 38



"TRNC" Vaughan



I REALLY don't think the RoC WANT to issue EWAs.. I've not seen any EU citizen prosecuted for using Ercan / Tymbou to exit / return since 2004 - when a case against a GC was dropped at a RoC Court ..!