Territory to be handed to Cypriots south of the current line

briggus


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 161

Message Posted:
20/06/2009 18:07

As I understand under the Annan plan - Varosha, areas around Guzelyurt were to be given up by the TRNC - was that it?.



Given a bi zonal /federal agreement if any is a likely outcome under the new talks can any one on here see further territory being given up? I would have thought Turkey would be reluctant for the TRNC to give any land up bordering on the north coast and there has been plenty of Turkish investment around Bafra. It is difficult to see what the TRNC will give up apart from small tweaks to the Annan plan.



Any other thoughts as any one with property on land passed to the Greek Cypriots - I would have thought find themselves in a different position to ones living in the new "shrunken TRNC" who would I presume be looking at having to pay compo to Greek Cypriots who claimed it was their land pre 74?

the butler


Joined: 22/06/2007
Posts: 1958

Message Posted:
20/06/2009 19:31

Hi briggus,



I understand that the TRNC would be left with about 28% of the land in Cyprus. As they have 33% at the moment giving up Gezelyurt and Varosha, would make this about right.





The butlers wife

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
20/06/2009 19:43

Hmm, but The president of Cyprus told us "Annan is dead"



I guess that means we couldn't possibly have plan, like... well, Annan

mixie


Joined: 16/05/2009
Posts: 302

Message Posted:
20/06/2009 19:47

Does anyone have an idea about how many more meetings will take place between the two leaders?

Mixie

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
20/06/2009 22:58

mark is right on the button: both sides have sort of said they must move on beyond annan

at least christofias did and was never contradicted



for the south the explanation is that they want much more out of any deal than annan:

the gc in the street told reporters at the time the compensation was inadequate

a recent development on that front is surprise surprise...

looks like nobody seems to have any spare cash for it anyway these days



now politicians in the roc say they want guzelyurt, varosha and the karpaz , control of the airspace

and there is even muttering in favour of the very democratic system of one-man-one-vote,

as opposed I'd imagine to tne equally democratic principal of power-sharing



reports in the tc press now suggest that no trnc territory is on the table to be handed over...

due to a significant hardening of public opinion, apparently



so it is fair to say that both sides have already notched up one area of agreement: annan is dead and buried

bachelibelly


Joined: 04/09/2008
Posts: 275

Message Posted:
20/06/2009 23:45

Well at least its good to see that finally they have reached a mutual agreement ...TO DISAGREE !!

CyprusChill


Joined: 08/05/2009
Posts: 666

Message Posted:
20/06/2009 23:59

msg 4.



The North and South meetings will continue to occur.

The Magnetism beteen the two will need reach in the order of One Tesla.

In the meantime continued repel until the two attract.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
21/06/2009 00:24

marshall mcluhan once said:

"the world is a global villiage but that doesn't necessarily mean the villagers like each other"



but as many contributors have pointed there are "enormous" and "huge" pressures on both sides to agree

so it is very unlikely either wants to be seen to er... disagree, or worse still, stage a walk-out



besides, there is always the possibility that the gc's, tc'c and turkey can come to an agreement:

all that needs to be sorted out is how you square a military security guarantee with reclaiming a province

but greater brains than mine are at work on the problem: some have studied international pronouncements,

and resort to the frequent use of inverted commas to resolve the irresolvable



the likely alternative to such a shotgun marriage is the alternative solution to the question of cyprus,

that both parts of cyprus make their own way in life, much as they have done for a third of a century,

with the best of possible relations between the two countries

briggus


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 161

Message Posted:
21/06/2009 14:44

Andre:



The Annan plan may be dead but if the GCs are asking for Guzelyurt, Varosha (Karpaz was that included in the Annan Plan?) they are still sticking to parts of it re territory. You can not tell me IF there is an agreement parts of it will not be the same or similiar to the Annan Plan - bur to save GC face it will not be mentioned.



From what you say the parties do not seem very close to an agreement and if that is the case - it is time for the international community to face up to it - there will have to be to EU states on Kibris. Compensation wil have to be found for displaced cypriots on both side of the line. Freedom of movement would have to be granted any how under EU rules.

mikelapta



Joined: 20/11/2008
Posts: 2186

Message Posted:
21/06/2009 15:00

Why do Greece not accept they have lost their "marbles".i.e. The British will never return them.

And now they want more maritime areas of Northern Cyprus,coincidentally where oil could be found.

Dream on,Greeks.

cypwine


Joined: 09/05/2009
Posts: 177

Message Posted:
21/06/2009 15:45

msg 10



What have Greece got to do with anything????? Cypriots just want what is rightfully theres.

Mr Vince


Joined: 24/07/2008
Posts: 696

Message Posted:
21/06/2009 16:29

GC's to get back Guzelyurt ( 'cos it's rubbish), Varoshna ('cos it will cost too much to repair), and Karpaz (cos no one lives there). In return TC's are to get Paphos airport, Larnaca Airport and the docks at Limasol.



Good swap if you ask me.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
21/06/2009 16:31

Hi Briggus



re msg 9



<>



EU rules/rights were "suspended" in Annan - GCs could NOT live were they pleased - to give TCs some sense of "security" - and I don't see things will be any different !

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
21/06/2009 16:36

Dear Andre_514



re msg 5



Perhaps you missed my irony in msg 3!



Annan may be "dead", but if you, or Mr Christofias, thinks that any new plan is going to be radically different....



It will be up to Mr Christofias to persuade GCs that the deal wont get any better, and I'm sure TR will want a deal that keeps the north coast and be happy with 27-29% of the territory.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
21/06/2009 20:28

I feel sure this is the last chance for any agreed settlement of all outstanding issues



I'd be as happy as anyone if the south can agree an accord with north cyprus



but after all this time and a gradual increase in bickering between the two sides



there seems precious little chance of it and in my opinion north cyprus will be better off



no longer chasing after rainbows, and as for handing over land, no way jose



but as non-cypriots at the end of the day that is not really up to either you or me anyhow...

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
22/06/2009 00:48

if the greek cypriots had not tried to totally wipe out the turkish cypriots, none of these problems would have occured. the only way the gc's will get any land back is if they stick some into a carrier bag on their visits to this side of the island. if the world was a fair place, the very modern and democratic governments of the european union would get their fingers out. instead they accept the greek side into the union. good luck to them, just stop talking bol***ks. politics is equal to crap liars. and when it comes to the trnc government, they are just passing time. if you are expecting any agreements, keep waiting.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
22/06/2009 11:16

Dear Yunus,



re msg 16



This is the second time I have noticed your simplistic analysis of the CY problem - the other time is on the N.Cyprus Walking Holidays article covered in a UK National newspaper... I let that go.. then, but someone needs to get you to "remove your blinkers" - so to speak.



YES - there were nasty GCs who wanted TCs off the island - some paid over the oddds - lent money by the church to buy out TCs - some used intimidation or force.. But let's not forget that there was a sizeable number of Cypriots of Greek Etnicity who were pro rappraochment and folk fascist GCs and Greeks - only to find they HAD to fight along side them as Turkey was just as indiscriminate - wanting all GCs removed.



Let's not forget Taksim ( division) was an agenda for powerful TCs - just as Enosis ( union with Greece ) was an aim for many GCs.



Let's not forget that the UK/USA - desperate to hold onto it's bases - encouraged the ethnic differences - "divide and rule" .

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
22/06/2009 11:36

Ooops from msg 17



that SHOULD have read



But let's not forget that there was a sizeable number of Cypriots of Greek Etnicity who were pro rappraochment and ***FOUGHT*** fascist GCs and Greeks nly to find they HAD to fight along side them as Turkey was just as indiscriminate - wanting all GCs removed.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
22/06/2009 15:17

Mr Vince re msg 12



"GC's to get back Guzelyurt ( 'cos it's rubbish), " ( WHY?)



"Varoshna -'cos it will cost too much to repair" ( Who destroyed it ?)

" and Karpaz -cos no one lives there. ( who caused the population to run away - and made kids of secondary education age leave - forbidding their return - who MADE it deserted ?)





" In return TC's are to get Paphos airport" ( reasoning?) ,

" Larnaca Airport"" ( only built because Nicosia and Tymbou [ seized/ unusable])



" and the docks at Limasol. " ( following the loss of Famagusta port )



"Good swap if you ask me."



Ask a silly question ..... ;)

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
22/06/2009 18:59

dear mmmmmm

the truth is usually very simple my dear friend, politics only confuses it. you should not have let it go on the walking article post as i would love to talk about it. yes there are good and bad in every race, religion, nationality, etc, there were good greek cypriot people who tried very hard to stop the slaughter but this did not stop the cypriot turks, women and children getting raped, tortured, and killed. this is not honerable my friend. i will tell you what is honerable mmmmmmm. the turkish army not pushing absolutely everybody in to the sea at the other end of the island. don't listen to the politican's. they will only confuse you even more. investigate yourself while the people of the time are still about. awaiting your reply.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
22/06/2009 19:12

Dear Yunus



if only it were that simple !



I did not want to spoil the walking thread - nor to jump on every poster who can only se the CY problem in one dimension.



Let me ask you this?



What do you say to a GC acquaintance - known to many of my TC acquaintences who - was campaigning for TCs rights - but got ejected from his house in north Nicosia in 1963?



Undeterred he fought on for rapproachment - maimed for life ( cannot walk far - needs a wheel chair ) by Right wing GCs supporting the coup in early July 1974 ...



While he was recovering - his temporary hospital was overrun by the TR army ( as was the replacement family home ) - he was NOT well treated - and now HATES Turks beyond reason :( Yet he refers to TCs as his brothers...



I don't listen to most Politicians - don't worry - I have little time for the last RoC president - and the jury is out on this one - as I believe he chose to support President "Liealotopoulos" and kep AKEL in power.



( cont)

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
22/06/2009 19:19

from msg 21



TR army intervention / invasion - Hmm



Well you probably know that how far they would go was pre-arranged with the CIA and the Greek inspired Coup was encouraged BY the CIA ..



You'd also know that Taksim was an agenda in the fifties - and that certain aspects of TC society even thought it was OK to bomb and kill Turks to provoke anger... and hatred.



The British wanted to keep the bases and even had to prod TR into interest in Cyprus ( divide and rule in the fifties ) .. The British used TCs as Policemen - during the non - co-operation phase of the Independence campaign and the ethnic split was well and truly on it's course.



I'd love to know what the Brits had on Makarios to get him to accept the 1960's constitution and I'd love to know the games that went on - by both ethnicities to achieve there diverse aims..



Both Greece and Turkey agreed to UN peace-keepers and kept on arming GCs/ TCs



Now tell me again - things were that simple...

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
22/06/2009 20:50

dear mmmmmm



i also have gc friends who were grenade bombed whilst sitting in a coffee shop with their tc friends. i have gc friends who came over to fight the tc's but were phsically sick to see that it was not a war but a masacre, they swiftly ran away back to england.

so, everybody politically stirs things up and the tc women and children pay a political price of rape, torture and death because everybody has political problems. please tell me about gc women and children of this era dear mmmmmm.

turkish president of the time bulent ecevithad visited both u.k and usa to stop the masacre that was going on and when told to wait for the next day for a reply (all in the good nature of politics of course, no harm was done or being intended, just politics). he gave the go ahead for the turkish army to invade. this was not politcs my dear friend. this movewas to save the lives of the remaining tc's on the island. my uncles father in law was an erenkoy villager who says they had (cont)

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
22/06/2009 21:05

already run out of ammunition and had swapped their guns for axes and anything else that they could get a hold to defend them selves and what was left of their families. so what was the democratic, caring world waiting for dear mmmmmm. if you would like an " i was there " first person explaination of what the situation was, what they lived through and the massacre they saw, i can arange a meet for you. he sits at a cafe near the hsbc every day in kyrenia. it is very simple dear mmmmmm to see that if turkey had not crossed over, today there would be no cyprus problem because there would be no trnc and no turkish cypriot. i anybody else would like to join the discussion please do not hold back.

ilovekibris


Joined: 18/05/2009
Posts: 394

Message Posted:
22/06/2009 21:24

yunus,



We can all say we had a relative or friend who fought here, there or anywhere but it doesn't alter the fact that both sides suffered, which you concede. However Turkey is the international bad guy for its 35-year illegal occupation.



Only a fool would think 40,000 troops remain after all that time "just in case" the GCs start anything. And nobody can deny the TCs themselves have no control over their destiny because of the Turkish occupation. Turkey has made the TCs suffer in isolation for decades, while allowing their culture to be eroded by swamping them with Anatolian settlers.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
22/06/2009 21:41

I think turkey showed remarkable restraint:



it is not for me to decide what really happened in cyprus after the wheels came off the wagon in 1963,

but I remember in november 1967 turkey was ready to roll and actually loading transport ships at iskenderun

until the americans literally begged them to give it all another chance



again it is not proper etiquette to pontificate to greek cypriots what they may have done better,

but it looks as if in their drive for an all-hellenic cyprus they were temprementally unable to

believe just what sort of fearsome eurasian tiger they were really trying so hard to provoke



now we have on the one hand thirtyfive years of unbroken hostility, sinister manoeverings and threats

...yet for the third time in the "dispute" high-level talks are taking place



I am sure we all wish cypriots and their supporter the very best of luck if they can do business,

yet temper this with a gritty realism when we recall the bleak history of such attempts

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
22/06/2009 21:45

Dear Yunus



re msg 23/4



Are you sure YOU aren't a politician? - you sure answer questions like one.



1/ You pointed out things were simple - I explained - simply that they weren't- that there were many players - and good and bad on all sides. Do you accept that your view of it all being a GC "problem" is simplistic?



2/ Do you accept that both GR and TR accepted that the UN were to be the peace keepers on the island - so WHY did they both continue to supply arms to both ethnic groups



3/ Are you suggesting that the TR army had no plans to "intervene" prior to July 20th ?! You must surely know that the TR PM had asked to land via the British bases - do you dispute that the CIA were playing off the Greek Junta - to give the TR army the excuse to take an exactly pre-planned amount of Cyprus with the acceptance of the US?



4/ did you know that the UK navy could have intercepted the TR navy - but the UK got a call to "let 'em through" ?



( cont)

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
22/06/2009 23:08

cont from 27



5/ I'm well aware of Tc living in Ghettos - in misery - and you avoided all my questions about my GC acquaintaince .. why would that be ?



6/ I'm aware of atrocities by committed by GCs and aware of the torture techniques used by TC policemen - in front of UK "squaddies" to extract info on the original EOKA - it wasn't pleasant nor were they Geneva Convention approved techniques



Sorry, I think that the US / UK led Cypriots ( especially "leaders" who couldn't see they were being played) into the mess that was the fifties, sixties and seventies - anything to keep the Soviets out of Cyprus - YES it was Politics - NO.. I don't think the TCs would have been wiped out - how many Cypriots were killed between July 20th and the end of August ? Was THAT a price worth paying?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
22/06/2009 23:13

( cont)



msg 28



Lastly, do you remember that in April 2004 TCs were prepared to trust GCs - under the auspices of the EU to "move on" - sadly the GCs couldn't / wouldn't .



Many of them said they had no problem with TCs - it was Turkey they didn't trust .. I heard that a lot..



Shame they missed an important chance - I hope they will all get another one. Perhaps you might see both sides, too ?



Next time I'm over - I'd be pleased to met you.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
22/06/2009 23:20

Dear Andre_514



As ever you "forget" that there were / are many Turks / TCs who WANTED the RoC constitution to fail and WHO weren't below bumping off a few of their own to stir up ill feeling / mistrust..



No way am I saying the GCs were "angels" -many of them weren't - but to forget that they were largely played off by the US and UK - who were quite happy to se any solution that keep the bases intact and a NATO member on island to ensure there would be no Soviet presence on the island ..... AND that there weren't TCs / Turks happy to achieve Taksim - even if it meant a few martyrs...



"35 years of Unbroken hostility"? ... Hmm - that would be why the UN in Cyprus has kept reducing manpower - it does not perceive a threat to peace or an attempt to breach the ceasefire / Green line.

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
25/06/2009 00:33

dear mmmmmm



after politely asking me if i'm a politician, you have continued to write down many political views that you have read or heard about. as a politican would do (with all respect to you but not the politicians) you have counted numerous reasons and lots of hear say about what the greeks, turkish, u.n, british and u.s.a have said and done about the cyprus situation. everybody has their own story. this is what seems to be confusing you and others even today dear mmmmmm. this is what i mean by politics and lies. i am a humaniterian and see what happens to real people. everybody wants something and everybody has a good reaon for acting the way they did. who suffer dear mmmmmm.

if the turkish army had not interviened what would have happened to the turkish cypriots ?

did the u.n peace keep ? if they had would the tc's have needed weapons or turkey need to land.

if the tc's did not buy arms, from gun suppliers how would they have lasted so long against the gc's.

continued

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
25/06/2009 00:45

was this unfair to try to protect their families. what would anybody else on this planet have done ?

all is hear say. the final line is that no matter who said what, the gc's attacked and they weretaken in to the e.u. so obviously it must have been the turkish cypriots who attacked, and tried to take over the island and it must have been the gc's who were almost lost for ever and it must have been the british navy who stopped turkey taking the whole island. please dear mmmmmm, do not talk to me about politics and what people thought might happen. talk to me about facts as a human being and talk to me about the pain that these people lived through. talk to me about why they are still cut off from the rest of the world. please no political replies from the u.n or european union. tell me as a human being why they are in the eu and why not us.

" bumping off a few of your own " ! deep politics, i have a few stories of my own but lets stick to the humaniterian side for now.

LondonCypriot


Joined: 15/12/2008
Posts: 426

Message Posted:
25/06/2009 03:02

Its ok to demand that the island is united with greece but you seem to hate it when Turkey helps its people. The fact is that Cyprus can never be Greek

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
25/06/2009 13:08

Dear Yunus



thank you for your replies



I said you might be a politician as you STILL haven't responded to points I consider important and maybe they are the questions you feel uncomfortable answering?



Lots of my responses you "dismiss" as political.. as if that is some sort of definitive answer that closes off a subject... This is very puzzling to me.



It was a combination of zealots on with differing perspectives of how they wanted to see the island that contributed to the mess.



Most of what I have read / heard is in the Public Domain - it is a matter of government's records - it is not to be dismissed lightly as hearsay.. You can be sure that I have been to most of the villages in Cyprus and took a great deal of interest in the past and there is nothing better than listening to folk who live / lived there - and not just one person.



cont

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
25/06/2009 13:21

cont from 34



Let me remind you - I chose to live in Cyprus - I am from N.Ireland - I saw bombs go off - people's home set alight after being "ethnically cleansed" - I have encountered bigotry and hatred from both ethnic groupings and met folk who I'm sure have been involved in - or ( I believe) - may have been actively involved in the taking of life for a cause they believed was "just"...



We are born into a "tribe" and experience their trials and tribulations - it shapes who we are and how we think / believe.. I thought one dimensionally - until I married someone who was from across the ethnic divide - I learnt to try to see things from both sides - I tried to understand the mistrust... the origins



I've tried to reason with young GCs - during the Annan campaign - so I appreciate WHY Annan couldn't push Cypriot people together - there have been two generations who grew up only hearing one side of the story.





(cont)

julie.andrews


Joined: 09/07/2008
Posts: 27

Message Posted:
25/06/2009 13:21

Come along my dears, just keep dropping the word 'border' or "border" or *border* or for the benefit of our Dutch members <<<<<=====border=====>>>>> into the replies, it will keep young Mr mmmmm occupied for a short while, and one can hope afford time for a quick cup of tea and some lovely home made short bread.

Do have a good day,

Best wishes,

Mrs Andrew.



p.s. Penelope (that's our grand daughter, lovely girl, though a little wild at times), has suggested I should 'hot up my image' a little and start to sign as 'Mrs A' All seems a bit familiar to me, unless of course one has been formally introduced. I just hope her next suggestion isn't that I start wearing one of those 'thong' things.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
25/06/2009 13:35

cont from 35



My point is that Cyprus is NOT simple - it is not just a case of GC repression of TCs ..



Cypriots were promised independence from the UK and when the UK realised it couldn't afford to lose the bases it reneged on that promise - at a time when other former colonies were gaining independence.



It saw that many GCs were starting to call for Enosis with Greece - as they wanted rid of British rule - though how Cyprus would have coped under GR rule - but that is another topic... Back then TR was ambivalent about TCs and Cyprus- it was the UK that called apon TR to join with them and Greece to discuss the future... foxy British, eh ?



When GCs couldn't be trusted - either because they didn't want to - or were forced into non co-operation in govt roles.. TCs took over the positions of trust - they became the "enemy"... Divide and Rule...



cont

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
25/06/2009 13:43

cont

from 37



This "Politics" has shaped how Cyprus evolved.. identifying the causes should help us see how futile and silly all the loss of life, the maimings, rapings were.



YES it is natural to want to protect ones family - to not trust the tribe that cause us pain.. but why did it start?



One more time.. why supply arms if you mandate the UN to keep peace?.. no arms - no sustained war.. it was the inability of GCs to get ammunition on island that meant the second push in August by TR was so effective.



The TR invasion / intervention WAS planned and the coup by delusional rt wing GCs and Greeks was the pretext for the TR action - with the blessing of the CIA - who encouraged the GCs/ Greeks. Most Cypriots were pawns.



cont

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
25/06/2009 13:50

re 38 Cont



All of Cyprus *is* in the EU.. as you know... and it is sad that the GC No excludes TCs from enjoying the same rights .. I WANT to see TR in the EU and a solution - based on the UN model of autonomous regions.



The "rump" RoC is "in" thanks to a GR veto threat - to stop the 2004 enlargement - they wanted Cyprus in the EU - to dump the problem onto them... if you remember GR also wanted a GC YES to Annan . GR sought and has greatly improved TR relations and trade.



It is indeed a tragedy that the TC YES has not been "rewarded" and that there is mistrust of the EU - who are stymied by the UN Security Council Resolutions re the "TRNC"



Me Erdogan has a huge chance back then to implement Annan like changes in Cyprus that would have proved to GCs that TR could be trusted.



Now his ally in GR - the GR PM is weakened by unpopularity and "TCs" (the "" ""'s are because I believe may be 50% - or more - AREN'T actually TCs ) don;t trust the EU to bring a level paying fie