The political battle for Varosha

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 10:01

http://www.famagusta-gazette.com/link.asp?twindow=Default&smenu=69&sdetail=9156&mad=No&wpage=&skeyword=&sidate=



This one should be interesting.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 10:06

Hi Paul



re msg 1



Varosha is testimony to the farce that is Cyprus.. it is a bargaining tool for the TR side - pure and simple.

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 10:13

im sure it will be handed back any 1 seen any pigs flying over





i cant beleive the cheek of them, they throw everything in the powers stopping anything going ahead, then they ask for this id turn it into a donkey sanctuary

harryroberts


Joined: 05/05/2009
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 11:27

re MSSG 3



did you not read the article before you made your comment.



Both the turkish and greek mayors of the city have been working together to reopen the city.



( Anastasiades added that the Mayor of Famagusta and the "Mayor" of the Turkish part of the city had agreed on a plan for the reconstruction of the city which has been submitted to the European Union.)



surely this would be good for both communities.

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 11:34

Harry re-mess 4 well said,

Paul.

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 11:49

it would be very good if they played the game all the way along, instead of the bits that suit them, a ship was booking to go into fam untill the gc put a stop to it one way traffic greedy greeks

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 12:04

Dear Catalkoykid



re msg 6



"Greedy Greeks"



WHAT have Greeks do to with Cyprus and Cypriots? - hopefully as little as TR ..



I'm quite sure you know that TR is stopping RoC planes and ships from docking/ landing and overflying TR - despite signing an agreement ( Ankara Accord) that would allow that.



THAT is WHY the accession chapters - the route to joining the EU for TR has slowed - it would be a good thing to have TR in the EU - the "Greedy Greeks want that, too ;) ..but rules is rules...



TR broke a rule in 1974 ( as did Greece) and THAT is why - following the declaration of "independence" of "TRNC".. that the ships and planes don't dock/ fly non stop..



I look forward to both sides finding a solution...a compromise.. as it is the Cypriots that suffer

harryroberts


Joined: 05/05/2009
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 12:09

Re mssg 6



and the turkish side dont use the bits that suit them?



Dodger has posted an article which looks like a positive way forward and you make a sarcastic comment about donkeys without even reading the article properly.

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 12:12

if the eu had not allowed either side in,there would not be the trouble now.

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 12:13

it should have been both or nothing, it would have been sorted alot quicker

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 12:53

Dear KC re msg 9



>>if the eu had not allowed either side in,there would not be the trouble now. <<



Hmm, I think the "trouble" started long before that...



You have the "greedy Greeks" to "thank".. if RoC wasn't going to be allowed in - they threatened to VETO the 10 nations enlargement of May 2004 ..



They wanted RID of the Cyprus problem.. ;)

sporty


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 685

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 12:53

absolutely correct,catalkoykid.

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 12:56

You have the "greedy Greeks" to "thank".. if RoC wasn't going to be allowed in - they threatened to VETO the 10 nations enlargement of May 2004 ..





and the VETO crap as never stopped since

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 12:59

as the the turkish saying goes, last time they was running, next time they will be swimming

mixie


Joined: 16/05/2009
Posts: 302

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 13:00

For what its worth, I think that it a crying shame that this area just lies there like it is.



I would like to think if agreement could be made on something like this it would hopefully result in a sense of goodwill and a bit of reconciliation.



But then I always tend to think that nothing is insurmountable if there is a will there actually is a way!





Mixie

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 13:06

very true, but the last time tc trusted gc in 1960, they spent the next 14 years trying to wipe them out they will never get the same chance again

mixie


Joined: 16/05/2009
Posts: 302

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 13:13

catalkoykid,



I know some bits and pieces of the past but I am no expert. It seems to me that if both sides carry on with recriminations and bringing up the past(when I suppose there were faults on both sides , would that be fair?), nothing will move on and nothing will be ultimately be achieved.

It is going to need a change of mind sets for things to inch forward.



Easy said for me though because I have not been party to the troubles nor have I lost anyone or anything.



Apologies to those that have....



Mixie

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 13:13

mark message 2



"...it is a bargaining tool for the TR side-pure and simple"



what would you suggest as fair exchange in return for handing over varosha?

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 13:16

i tell you his answer will be nothing its theres in the first place right mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 13:18

mixie you are right, but it will only work as a total split this island will never reunify

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 13:20

catalkoy kid message 3



note that mark in message 2 refers to the "farce that is cyprus"



but I don't think they need to turn varosha into a donkey sanctuary, there is already one



it is called the republic of cyprus

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 13:21

mixie go into this link and read it

http://www.brtk.cc/index.php/lang/en/cat/2/news/51750

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 13:23

read all the links on there and tell me it will be sorted lol

mixie


Joined: 16/05/2009
Posts: 302

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 13:37

Yeah I read this earler on this morning on the train.



Things are definitely strring up just now.



I would love to think things could be sorted but as I previously said, I am a bit of a dreamer and the Cyprus problem is not a thing of dreams , Is it?

M

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 14:11

Dear CK,



there is NOTHING new in any of the posts you have posted links to..



IF you REALLY knew anything about the RoC "veto" - you'd know that they will never use it.. they don't NEED to.. they have the Dutch, Austrians, French, etc., who can do it for them, if TR doesn't stop trying to dictate it's terms having already signed up to the rules to join the club..





re msg 18 Andre_514



>>hat would you suggest as fair exchange in return for handing over varosha?<<



Well it should be handed back to the UN - it is in the UN zone...

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 15:23

In my opinion the Varosha situation needs more world wide unbiased coverage,

Paul.

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 16:09

Think of the income that it would bring in if it where demolished and re-built.This is a perfect opportunity for both sides to get together as one.Or is that just a pipe dream,

Paul.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 16:24

I would keep varosha very firmly under turkish army control

until and as when the other side are prepared to ease some of the isolations...

simples!



perhaps somebody could illuminate me:

this report in the "famagusta" gazette about joint propsals to rebuild the vacation resort,

could only be realized within an understanding on the cyprus question or is it a local deal?



otherwise I cannot see any advantage to either turkey or north cyprus of co-operating,

it may even give the republic of "cyprus" an (imagined) impression of weakness,

not generally advisable in any middle eastern or asiatic context, I would suggest



but then as mark would say, there's always "eu membership" for turkey to solve all ills

when bacon-suppliers assume aerodynamic characteristics and flap away into the blue

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 16:32

lmao nice 1 andre 514

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 19:13

Dear Andre_514 ( aka Alexandr Meerkat )



What is "simples" is that Varosha / Maras(h) is in the *UN buffer zone*.. It could have been like Pyla and bi communal..

twaddle


Joined: 06/07/2008
Posts: 245

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 20:56

I doubt that the TRNC powers that be will be giving too much thought to returning Varosha to the GCs whilst they are in the middle of negotiations (or at least going through the motions) why do that and reduce your bargaining power?

natalie


Joined: 03/05/2009
Posts: 323

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 21:05

mmmmm Do you really have so little to do with your life but to be stuck in front of your laptop day in day out and continualy posting 'some' sense but generally a pile of BS

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 21:07

mark.



I note your comment about varosha being technically in the buffer zone, I really hadn't realised that!



it is well-known however that varosha was a gem of the coast before the nicos samson coup,

and clearly the gc administration would love to have it rebuilt

"if" I was tukish/tc it seems sensible to co-operate provided a suitable reward like direct trade is offered

by the other side for such a generous gesture



otherwise, I feel they would be advised to retain the area under army control:

to recycle the remark of nicholas sarkosey in relation to turkey ever joining the eu, it wouldn't be "appropriate"



finally and it is becoming very tedious to reiterate this

because you seem more bound up with all your old blarney than what I really think,

I am no more "in favour or against" varosha being rebuilt than I am "in favour or against" turkey joining the eu

or even "in favour or against" cypriots putting together a workable all-island agreement against all the odds

clayton


Joined: 30/11/2008
Posts: 1143

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 21:28

let em swim

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 21:32

Varosha as it is today is a pitifull waste of a Cypriot resort and resource.

If may well be that the TRNC and Turkey grasp the opportunity to negotiate a deal for the openning up of the resort and town. Perhaps ROC would negotiate a trade off over some removal of embargo and open up Farmagusta commercial port to international trade.



I hope negotiations start....who knows where it may lead.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 22:09

clayton,



"let em swim"?

"they should learn to swim" has a very fine pedigree:



it was supposedly used by gerry adams in an off-the-cuff- reply when asked about loyalists in a united ireland

the same phrase was used by yassir arafat at a private meeting in kuwait about israelis in a united palestine

however there would appear little need for anybody to learn to swim, while a united cyprus is so very elusive

unless it's purely for pleasure and relaxation and I would wholeheartedly endorse north cyprius in this respect

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 22:42

I think a good start would be for the EU to give what was promised in 2004 for a yes vote.



When is this corrupt organisation going to start playing by its own rules.

littlejohn


Joined: 09/03/2009
Posts: 316

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 23:52

I used to think what an eyesore "Varosha" was in the late 60s in relation to the local surroundings.We would drive through pristine Cyprus countryside from Limassol and out of the heat haze would appear this high rise monstrosity. The locals hated it !!Pull it down and have done with it. The cost of rebuild would be enormous anyway!!

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
09/07/2009 00:13

Speculate to accumalate littlejohn."pull it down and have done with it" absolute twaddle.Pull it down and re-build it with funding.Make the area a feature of the new Cyprus whether two states or one,

Paul.

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
09/07/2009 00:17

If its 2 states Paul where would Famagusta sit ?

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
09/07/2009 00:19

Tats,

God knows mate never said it would be easy,

Paul.

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
09/07/2009 00:34

Wont Turkey have some bargaining power due to the deeds from the Ottaman empire days,

Paul.

littlejohn


Joined: 09/03/2009
Posts: 316

Message Posted:
09/07/2009 00:41

Message 39 - I love Cyprus - which is why I keep harping on about not spoiling it ! To recreate Varosha in its old image would be a travesty. And if people like you get their way, which seems likely,the north will be just like the south in a very few years time.Do you really want that??

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
09/07/2009 00:49

Mess 43 i also love Northern Cyprus and dont understand what you mean by people like me please expand L.J.



Paul.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
09/07/2009 00:51

famagusta is presently in the trnc trevor and was not included in the rejected annan plan:

varosha is its suburb which would have been handed over (along with guzelyurt at the other end of n. cyprus)

I can see why the old chestnuts of territory to be given and cash to paid still pops up again and again on '44



firstly because after all this hassle an agreement "should" appear (but I don't think it will in our lifetime)

secondly because a fairly reasonable person hopes you can swap land+cash in return for peace, logical?



well not really in this case

the gc's in all fairness to them have never deviated from the demand they want one state never two states,

and have consistently rejected anything involving cash in favour of having all former properties given them

myself I think that a single state and restitution are interlinked demands, designed to strangle north cyprus



now cue mark to pull a figure like 27% out of the air, and explain with full documentation how wrong I am

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
09/07/2009 01:01

Dear Natalie



re msg 32



>>Do you really have so little to do with your life but to be stuck in front of your laptop day in day out and continualy posting 'some' sense but generally a pile of BS<<



) You'd be amazed what I accomplish during the day - in addition to "annoying you".. ..!



Could you be specific as to what is BS?

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
09/07/2009 01:09

Andre,

Do Turkey have the title deeds then for Varosha,

Paul.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
09/07/2009 01:19

Dear Andre-514



re msg 33



What you think and the conclusions you draw are very relevant to me... I hope to keep educating you re Cyprus so as you might offer sensible debate. It seems my "blarney" is getting through ;)



As Varsoha / Maras(h) is in the UN buffer zone - what IS their to discuss.?



WHY have TR "decided" to forbid the UN to administer the area?.. Note.. not GCs.. the UN.. are they doing a "bad" job in Pyla?



Warren / Waz re msg 35.. did YOU know that this part of Famagusta was actually designated and agreed as part of the UN buffer zone.. So WHY are we discussing handing it back to GCs.. It should be handed over to the UN ..NOW..



>>Varosha as it is today is a pitifull waste of a Cypriot resort and resource.<< I couldn't agree more..



re msg 43

"The locals hated it".. hmmm - NOT what my neighbour two floors above me in Limas(s)ol would say..



re msg 45 Andre



Yep.. wrong as usual.. GCs know what the only game in town is.. they may not like it..

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
09/07/2009 01:24

paul,



I cannot say which parts

but it is claimed the gc's owned 92% of all property in cyprus before the present day



it is not that useful an excercise since kyrenia was a greek cypriot town more or less

and if you put that on the negociating table it is more or less goodnight trnc



as I have said very many times I do not have any view on what "should" happen

but I suppose if I was a cypriot turk I would never ever trust the gc's

while if I was a gc, I guess I would dream of running the 100k settlers out of town



none of this augers well for any historic compromise between the two old enemies

but don't worry, this one will run and run

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
09/07/2009 01:28

Mark,

So do you think that the above will be re-built in the foreseeable or just left as a monument for tourists to go by on their day trips and be spoken to by ill informed guides who speak about clothes still left on washing lines from 1974,

Paul.

littlejohn


Joined: 09/03/2009
Posts: 316

Message Posted:
09/07/2009 01:47

Message 44 - Can't be bothered !!

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
09/07/2009 02:10

Paul re msg 50



What happens depends on the outcome of any settlement.. I don't see TR just handing it back to the UN, now.

CyprusChill


Joined: 08/05/2009
Posts: 666

Message Posted:
09/07/2009 03:01

I was ten last time on this beach and in this area.



Sensible TC and GC entrepreneurs need to consider and progress this area of Cyprus.



It will cost a few bob but can project the current times and the way forward.



The majority im sure will need destruction before the rebuild can begin.



It will happen.

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
10/07/2009 00:06

Littlejohn,

Can you be bothered yet,

Paul.