Free Aligator system with every pool

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
09/07/2009 10:08

Until further notice Octopus Pools will be supplying, free of charge, an Aligator swimming pool system fitted to every new pool built by us.

The normal cost of an Aligator system, supplied and fitted, is 850 pounds sterling.

Aligators work on a similar principle as Zerochlor in that they continually produce silver and copper ions which between them kill algae and disinfect the pool water.

http://www.aligator.co.uk

itfc1978


Joined: 31/03/2009
Posts: 187

Message Posted:
09/07/2009 10:25

Have to say I do not normally recommend things cos it`s sods law it will all go tits up



but



since installing an Aligator system a couple of months ago I could not be more pleased.

Pool is crystal clear and extremly easy to maintain.



Mike

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
09/07/2009 10:43

what's with all the chlorine bashing ?



I know dozens of people over here with pools, all use chlorine, no problems and chlorine is a cheap and effective way to keep your pool clean and hygenic....



it is used in MILLIONS of pools worldwide every day......

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
09/07/2009 11:03

Chlorine IS a cheap and effective way to sterilize your pool. That's because it is a very agressive substance which carries several CoSHH warnings. We know that in the short term it causes bleaching of clothes etc., and this is only a sign of how powerful it is. Many people with skin conditions like eczema and psoriasis are unable to swim in chlorinated pools. In indoor pools treated with chlorine asthmatics suffer. There are moves afoot to eventually ban the use of chlorine in pools in the EU and the USA.

Keeping a pool "right" with chlorine is also a balancing act, with many DIY pool maintainers not having a full understanding of pool water balance. Cyanuric acid build up and the formation of chloramines (combined chlorine) can lead them up the garden path, leading to green/cloudy pool water and/or excessive shocking taking the pool out of service.

Aligator systems combine ionization with automation to eliminate all the above issues.

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
09/07/2009 11:54

hear what you say Vaughan, but at £850 - you are looking at 15-17 years worth of chlorine....

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
09/07/2009 12:07

Hi NN,



Would you care to share your maths with us as I think you may have slipped a decimal point somewhere. Either that, or you have a very small pool



In any case, as I conceded in my reply, msg4, chlorine IS cheap - no argument - but being cheap is not the issue - being a hazardous substance with considerable drawbacks, not least health ones, is.



regards



Vaughan

zerochlor


Joined: 03/04/2009
Posts: 4024

Message Posted:
09/07/2009 12:08

Message 5



Try a Aligator treated pool



Try a zerochlor pool



Then give us your professional opinion NN



Youll never go back to chlorine!



Cheers for the strips vaughan

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
09/07/2009 12:26

mess - i paid £50 for a 25kg tub of chlorine, which has lasted me over a year now....



£850 for the aligator system, divide by £50 for say a years worth of chlorine = 17 so 17 years, so no problems with the Nicker's maths...



Assume the cost of chlorine would go up, then assume that parts would need changing on aligator system and that it wouldn't last that long anyway....



If chlorine is that hazardous, it would have been banned years ago.....



Zero - what is the cost of a years worth of Zerochlor treatment ?

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
09/07/2009 12:30

talking of chlorine replacement, what happened to those "Poolsan" lot who recconed their stuff was going to revelotionise pool ownership in the TRNC ??

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
09/07/2009 12:50

OK NN,

I won't argue too much with your maths if we use your figures - cost of your chlorine x how little you use.

Nevertheless, the real issue as I said, is not cost but health.

There is a steady banning of substances which have been deemed to be hazardous to health and/or the environment and chlorine is on the list to be banned in the not too distant future. In 1994 the Clinton administration tried to ban chlorine but the chemical industry succesfully lobbied against it.

Take a skim through

http://www.purifiedwaterfilter.com/the%20truth%20about%20chlorine

to read about chlorine.

Ozbey


Joined: 04/03/2009
Posts: 304

Message Posted:
09/07/2009 14:09

NN,

I'm with you on this one. All this anti chlorine comment.

Sure chlorine is a toxic chemical (so is aspirin and many other medications taken in overdose!), but when used at the appropriate low level, as recommended for decades by qualified government medical advisors around the world, it is acceptably safe and a good sanitiser. Don't the UK water companies use a form of chlorine in the drinking water!!! However, to be safe in your swimming pool, the level of free chlorine has to be kept below 2.0 parts per million. If you test the water and then add a MEASURED amount of chlorine to raise it to 2.0 ppm then you are OK - that is not at all difficult. Maybe it is the people who are chucking in UNMEASURED amounts of chlorine and not even testing the level first who should be banned - not the chlorine.



I think much of this anti chlorine hysteria is coming from those trying to sell alternative treatments.

(contd)

Ozbey


Joined: 04/03/2009
Posts: 304

Message Posted:
09/07/2009 14:23

Vaughan, I have great respect for you and all the advice that you freely give, but if I recall correctly weren't you heavily involved with selling, fitting and maintaining Watermaid systems about 5 years ago? And what did they do? - They generated chlorine!!! And it seems most of them didn't last many years either, so the pool owners paid hundreds of pounds for the privelige of still swimming in chlorine for a few years. So you thought chlorine was OK then, but not now. The installers made money - now there is a newer idea for making money again.

Will the Aligators fair any better?

You say they produce silver and copper ions , as contained in zerochlor. Does anyone know how toxic they are, especially if used in excessive doses?

Me? I'm sticking to my MEASURED chlorine - great pool and, like NN, about £50-75 per year.

No offence meant to anyone, just my considered opinion.

crofter


Joined: 16/12/2008
Posts: 1035

Message Posted:
09/07/2009 14:43

We have had the Alligator fitted to our own pool and we cannot fault it. The water is crystal clear and the small amount of chlorine that is required to keep the water tip top is minimal. Plus, the maintenance of the pool is virtually nil. We are very pleased with the Alligator system and having used chlorine and salt water treated pools over the past 7 years we would never use either after our experience of the Alligator water purifyer.



No connection with the company except being a satisfied customer.

Ozbey


Joined: 04/03/2009
Posts: 304

Message Posted:
09/07/2009 14:54

Crofter,

You seem to have thrown loads of money at the problem over the past few years when all that was really needed was for the chlorine to have been USED PROPERLY. Purely out of interest, what was wrong with your salt water system, was it a chlorine generator and how much money did you waste on that?

Do you go out and buy a new computer just because you don't know how to use it properly? Of course not - you learn how to do it properly. It is just the same with your pool chlorine.

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
09/07/2009 15:01

Hi Ozbey,



Some fair points. Funny you should mention asprin - if chlorine and/or asprin were invented today, they would not pass approval by the relevant bodies.

Drinking water in the UK contains about 1ppm, "standard" pool water about 3ppm. None of them what you would think to be large amounts but one is 3 times as concentrated as the other. For deleterious materials such single figure ppm's are quite hazardous. Bearing in mind your comment about chucking in unmeasured amounts of chlorine and the fact that under certain conditions (high CYA, pH adrift) even higher amounts of chlorine may not be effective, but still hazardous.

One of the advantages of the Watermaid was that they continuously generated LOW background amounts of chlorine, reducing the roller-coaster effect caused by dosing weekly or bi-weekly to maintain the desired level. Watermaids also didn't involve CYA so these low levels were usually effective.

Check out

http://www.aligator.co.uk/howitworks.html

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
09/07/2009 16:07

Wise words Ozbey - i'm with you, the anti chlorine brigade seem to be the ones selling (expensive) alternatives....



i've got enough to be spending my money on over here.....





From what i remember about Poolsan, you don't get the "sparkle" off the water you do with chlorine......

Ozbey


Joined: 04/03/2009
Posts: 304

Message Posted:
09/07/2009 17:58

Hi Vaughan, thanks for your response.



I don't know why you say that "standard" pool water is about 3ppm - most test kits, and all the books, say keep it at 2ppm or less. Are you saying that most pool maintenance firms ignore the industry advice and use dangerous levels? That doesn't surprise me.



The Watermaids only produced low amounts of chlorine WHEN PROPERLY ADJUSTED, MAINTAINED AND SERVICED. Many were not - I once tested a Watermaid pool (because I could smell chlorine) and it read 6ppm!!!!



These high tec systems all sound to me like a very expensive method of compensating for very poor standards of pool cleaning - especially if you also count the cost of maintaining and repairing the device and its eventual replacement (probably by the next new fangled marketing idea!).

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
10/07/2009 09:17

Hi Ozbey,



If you maintain your own pool and monitor the chlorine levels daily you can keep it as tight to 2ppm as you can. If you are a visiting pool company whatever chlorine you put in will have "average" 2ppm, so between visits the level will start high, passing through 2ppm down to low on the day of the next visit. So 1 day out of three the chlorine level is either too high or too low, with only 1 day being at the correct level.

Is this roller-coaster effect that devices like Aligators level out whilst getting almost completely away from chlorine.



Hi NN,

Chlorine is also an oxidiser as well as a disinfectant, which is why it makes the water sparkle. Even with an Aligator we keep a chlorine level of 0.8ppm to carry out this oxidisation and make the water sparkle.

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
10/07/2009 09:19

mess 18 - But don't think you get the "sparkle" from products like Poolsan......

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
10/07/2009 11:39

No, you don't unless you use an oxidiser like chlorine or oxygen regen as used with Zerochlor. This was also used with Poolsan.

Example: Switch on your pool underwater lights at night - if the beam of light is full of tiny floating particles you need an oxidiser.

Ozbey


Joined: 04/03/2009
Posts: 304

Message Posted:
10/07/2009 16:44

Hi vaughan, re mess 18,



So you ARE saying that most pool maintenance firms ignore the industry advice and use dangerous levels?



This begs the question - Why do professional pool companies sell the service of 2 visits per week where they will knowingly OVERDOSE your pool, to see you through the next 3 or 4 days? Why not be honest and offer 3 visits per week (5 minute chemical check only) only one of which will need to do general cleaning and vacuuming.

If you'd done this there would be no need for the money making hi tec systems - perhaps that is my answer!!!!!!

I also notice that my earlier questions have been ignored - I repeat -

1. Does anyone know the toxic risks of silver ions or copper ions,

2. The Watermaids only produced low amounts of chlorine WHEN PROPERLY ADJUSTED, MAINTAINED AND SERVICED. Many were not - I once tested a Watermaid pool (because I could smell chlorine) and it read 6ppm!!!! What extra cost - also for Alligator?

I am intrigued to hear the answers

Ozbey


Joined: 04/03/2009
Posts: 304

Message Posted:
10/07/2009 16:56

Just noticed I have heard no technical answers from Zerochlor (Mr Anti Chlorine - hard sell, frighten the uninformed off chlorine - by my product!!!)



I'm standing by waiting for the usual - Try my product, you won't be disappointed. Why should I, chlorine is fine.

Weren't you also recently selling your product when you didn't even have the test kits for it at that time?

No very professional (or safe maybe?)

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
10/07/2009 17:01

Hi Ozbey,



Pool maintenance is a very competitive business in any country, no less in TRNC. Anyone offering 3 vpw instead of 2 would not find many takers as he would price himself out of the game.



I thought I had answered your questions but I'll try again:

1. The toxic risks of copper and silver are well known and the production of them by an Aligator system is WELL below the current recommended safety levels.

Read http://www.aligator.co.uk/howitworks.html and you will see that NASA recycles Austronaut urine this way.

2. I'm not sure exactly what question 2 is but if you could "smell chlorine" at 6ppm it ws probably chloramines or combined chlorine that you could smell, not "excessive" chlorine. As to cost - the point of systems like Aligator is not cost driven but the wish to get away from chlorine for health & safety reasons. If we tried to sell Aligators on cost no-one would buy them. The many Aligators we have sold have all been bought for reasons other than cost

zerochlor


Joined: 03/04/2009
Posts: 4024

Message Posted:
10/07/2009 17:15

Message 22



ozbey



I am mr anti chlorine.



And why shouldnt i be?



yes i was selling my product and the test kits hadnt or havent arrived yet.



The company making and supplying our test kits wanted me to buy 10.000 tubs to OEM brand the strips for me .put the zerochloe brand name on.

This amount of tubs x 50 strips wasnt possible for me to buy.



So we have been at loggerheads with the company for a few months,as when we first made our order there was no MOQ stated.

as for hearing technical answers from me, http://www.zerochloreuropean.com you can read until ur hearts content my chlorinated friend. all the answers you might ever need regarding my product are there.clikk the icon and hey presto.your answers will appear!



Have a good weekend.



Happy swimming!

Ozbey


Joined: 04/03/2009
Posts: 304

Message Posted:
10/07/2009 17:32

Hi Vaughan,

Thanks for reply.

Why should 3 vpw cost more, 2 of them only 5 minutes each?

Anyhow, if you told them that one plan was safe and the other was dangerous - what problem then? (cheaper than £850 Alligator)



Your answer 1. Thanks, very pleased to hear it.

Your answer 2. I don't really care what caused the smell - my point was that the Watermaid was keeping this particular pool at Chlorine 6 parts per million (3 times the recommended safe maximum!).

You say - "The many Aligators we have sold have all been bought for reasons other than cost" - Maybe the anti-chlorine hysteria coming from those with vested interest in selling other systems? Great marketing, but quite unneccessary.



I'm certain that professional pool companies COULD maintain pools safely using chlorine, but they would need -

3 five minute chemical visits per week, one to also include cleaning, and

thorough and consciencious workers WHO WERE PROPERLY SUPERVISED (always missing in TRNC).

Ozbey


Joined: 04/03/2009
Posts: 304

Message Posted:
10/07/2009 17:35

Thanks Zerochlor,

So you were prepared (for whatever reason) to sell your product to customers with no way for them to test the water!

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
10/07/2009 17:46

Ozbey,



I know your name is Turkish but flying carpets are not real you know! 3vpw would cost more because even if you only spent 5 mins there you still have to drive there in a van which uses diesel, and which takes a lot more than 5 mins to get there.

Watermaids in conjunction with a time clock are an automatic system for maintaining correct chlorine levels. Aligators are an automatic system for maintaining silver/copper sulphate/oxide levels. As with all automatic systems they need monitoring and adjusting to operate correctly. The Watermaid in your example oviously wasn't.

If there was an industry norm that all pool maintenance companies stuck to it would be a level playing field and 3vpw would not be uncompetitive. Unfortunately, that is not the case in TRNC or anywhere else where it concerns private pools.

Ozbey


Joined: 04/03/2009
Posts: 304

Message Posted:
10/07/2009 17:48

Hi to you all,



I think I have made my points - chlorine can be used successfully and safely.



I have no wish to repeat my points, so will be leaving this thread after this posting - unlike some, I do not have any financial interest in keeping it going.

The choice is yours.

Whatever method you choose I hope your pool remains bright. Enjoy your swimming (in safety).



Good luck Vaughan and Zerochlor with your businesses.



Regards to you all,

Ozbey.

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
10/07/2009 18:09

Hi Ozbey,



You have made your points very well indeed and I have enjoyed debating them with you.

Yes, chlorine can be used successfully and safely - and so can Plutonium!

Seriously, I hope others have read our thread and picked up enough info to make informed choices, whatever they are.



regards to you too.