Orams Case - a chink of light?

Birdsong


Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 43

Message Posted:
23/07/2009 12:50

At last someone in authority has stated the truth about "the invasion"!

Perhaps TRNC should give Carl Bildt an award for services to North Cyprus



CYPRUS MAIL 23 July:

Bildt under fire over Cyprus comments



POLITICIANS yesterday banded together to roundly condemn comments made by Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt in a session of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the European Parliament on Tuesday.



Answering a French delegate’s question over the Swedish Presidency’s position on Turkish military parade in the north, Bildt replied that the rally had to be put in context, with an answer to the effect that the activities of the Greek junta in 1974 provoked the Turkish army’s invasion.



Foreign Minister Marcos Kyprianou expressed his over Bildt’s remarks. “The least I can say is to express my disappointment over the positions expressed by the Swedish Minister of Foreign Affairs, an official of an EU member state and a representative of the presidency.”

Mr Vince


Joined: 24/07/2008
Posts: 696

Message Posted:
23/07/2009 12:53

Looks like Mr Bildt will not be collecting his Makarios Gold medel. Maybe he should get the Attaturk Gong.

wanderer


Joined: 05/02/2009
Posts: 1653

Message Posted:
23/07/2009 13:42

Mr Bildt has spoken the truth so Foreign Minister Marcos Kyprianou beats the drum to let his electorate know he is still there picking up his EU allowance

Unfortunately there needs to be more said of why Turkey intervened to stop genocide.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
23/07/2009 14:16

>>Unfortunately there needs to be more said of why Turkey intervened to stop genocide.<<



You could read "the Cyprus conspiracy" and find an answer to the question...

TJagain


Joined: 23/07/2009
Posts: 1

Message Posted:
23/07/2009 17:46

>>Unfortunately there needs to be more said of why Turkey intervened to stop genocide.<<



>>You could read "the Cyprus conspiracy" and find an answer to the question... <<





Or another "balanced view" ......... The Genocide files

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
23/07/2009 17:51

Mark

The Turkish forces provided a peace that the UN/Greece/UK could never guarantee.

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
23/07/2009 18:04

Mark



Do you currently have any property or family connections anywhere in Cyprus?

cyprusairsoft



Joined: 22/06/2009
Posts: 2066

Message Posted:
23/07/2009 19:43

mrk cant get a visa heheh

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
23/07/2009 19:49

He might get one here, but I expect it would choke him.



Troodo.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
23/07/2009 21:12

http://www.famagusta-gazette.com/link.asp?twindow=Default&smenu=69&sdetail=9274&mad=No&wpage=&skeyword=&sidate=





They (gcs) dont like it up em.Well said Carl,

Paul.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
23/07/2009 21:19

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Bildt



What a guy.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
23/07/2009 22:22

bildt and nicholas sarkosy had "words" recently:

the french president was to visit sweden but the meeting came close to cancellation

because foreign minister bildt had upset him by suggesting that turkey

should get an honest chance to join the eu, however "inappropriate" (n.s.)



I belive the technical term is "level playing field"...



apparently it is a popular misconception in south cyprus and on the "44" forum

that the divided and much put-upon mediterranean island of cyprus (where?!?)

has anything at all to do with viscerial and organic eu hostility to turkey



true, britain supported turkey's application at least verbally since john major's time

but the near-bankrupt rain-sodden atlantic state never had vey much sway

with our present eu leadership, the franco-german "two rons"

and about as much capacity to command them as a mewling three-week-old kitten



you can always get a decent cup of tea though

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
23/07/2009 23:11

Andre



"apparently it is a popular misconception in south cyprus and on the "44" forum



that the divided and much put-upon mediterranean island of cyprus (where?!?)



has anything at all to do with viscerial and organic eu hostility to turkey "



Being saying the same thing for ages, that Turkeys entry to EU will in no way be decided by the Cyprus Problem,much as I recognise this means deflating the egos of ROC and Greece. I have never heard in any conversation about Turkey and EU, the word Cyprus mentioned.It was usually the words ,big population, trade route to middle east,problem with labour into western europe,human rights,opening of Turkish markets.

Where??

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
23/07/2009 23:29

More power to Carls elbow i say at least he has the bollocks to speak out and go against the Staus Quo,

Paul.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
24/07/2009 09:37

Dear RobNJo



re msg 7



>>Do you currently have any property or family connections anywhere in Cyprus?<<



None.. and the relevance is ?!...



Dear AJ re msg 6

>>The Turkish forces provided a peace that the UN/Greece/UK could never guarantee.<<



Well, the UN didn't feel that .. "peace" came at a VERY high cost.. the invasion / intervention set off the chain of atrocities where GCs were killing TCs in areas where the TR army hadn't reached...



Dear Cyprusairsoft re msg 8



>>m[A]rk cant get a visa heheh<<



*I* have no problems with visas ! ... do keep up..



Dear Troodo re msg 9



I've never had a problem visiting anywhere in Cyprus...

wanderer


Joined: 05/02/2009
Posts: 1653

Message Posted:
24/07/2009 11:52

Mark

"Well, the UN didn't feel that .. "peace" came at a VERY high cost.. the invasion / intervention set off the chain of atrocities where GCs were killing TCs in areas where the TR army hadn't reached..."



The UN record in Africa and the Balkans in cases of genocide is abysmal their brief precludes them from being of any use "They can only watch and in extreme circumstances defend themselves "

Thank god Turkey did come in with the plans the GC +G had for the final solution.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
24/07/2009 21:40

Dear Wanderer



re msg 16



in Cyprus the UN had been there for 11 years



Both GR and TR continued to arm Cypriots - despite assurances that they respected the UN mandate



Britain was part of the UN peace-keeping force and did nothing to stop the TR fleet as it was ordered to back down by the US. The US had played both GR and TR off hoping to keep bases on Cyprus.



The UN is only STRONG when the US actively helps - not undermines.



>>Thank god Turkey did come in with the plans the GC +G had for the final solution.<<



Then you must have missed the fact that although TCs were living in enclaves, the massacres were committed AFTER TR invaded.



The "peace movement" brought a huge upsurge in intercommunal violence - before then the GCs were fighting each other !



The UN were on the ground and STILL asking both GR and TR to leave the island ...

wanderer


Joined: 05/02/2009
Posts: 1653

Message Posted:
25/07/2009 02:09

M

The UN and their brief is only to fire when under personal threat

Congo Rwanda Balkans Cyprus they can only observe



They are a chocolate tea pot sweet nice looking but ornaments .



The TC arming would be difficult as all the ports were GC& G controlled

Once the coup by Samson had been consolidated the island would have been

"ethnically cleansed"



The GC history totally ignores that fact and the propaganda that is put out warrants the title

Dark Side



They at present want a return to RoC with no Turkey guarantee & no Turkish troops

Britain's guarantees were and are worthless and Greece was instrumental in the coup



I assume a united RoC army on a proportional basis that would allow the TC to drive the new 41 Russian tanks on Fridays and bank holidays



One way is a Czech & Slovakia type relationship two independent countries

CyprusChill


Joined: 08/05/2009
Posts: 666

Message Posted:
25/07/2009 05:08

Ones a fart and the other does it a lot..



The Phill and Andrew waste of space show ...............



http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,937935-3,00.html

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
25/07/2009 08:38

Dear Wanderer



re msg 18



I note you don't comment on my observation that the UN is strong when not undermined. In 74 they were WAY outnumbered by TR troops, who had no right to be there. The US could have stopped it, but ass they were ENCOURAGING the actions by GR and TR ...



YES, The UN's role is primarily to keep peace - to diffuse. That role is "difficult" to say the least when there is no will to support them.



Samson was a complete "idiot" to believe TR would stand by and watch his antics- and if the US / UK had wanted to intervene.....



The "rump" RoC can hope for no TR involvement on the island, but unrealistic- the TCs need to know that TR could return at ther drop of the hat.. it is up to GCs to reassure TCs - over time - that they needn't worry.



The GC Tanks - amazing how this fixates you, and others - what good would they be in a bun fight?- STUPID GC "we are strong" posturing to electorate :(



The only deal in town is one state - with two autonomous region

wanderer


Joined: 05/02/2009
Posts: 1653

Message Posted:
25/07/2009 11:07

M

When the UN is strong is a different point they could not and did not stop GC killing GC & the next step was to turn on the TC population as they were openly promising .



The people are still there to tell their experiences



Yes Samson was an idiot and its that sort of idiot who become "generalisimo dictator" and the only one country that would help was TR



The RoC is in a corner unless they back down from their demands because they won't get a reversion to pre 74 when they called the tune but that's what they have promised the electorate



The Tanks with no TR army on the island are quite effective in the event of "civil unrest" and in a united island who controls the army as all the TC's have been doing their national service in the TR



"The only deal in town is one state - with two autonomous region"



If the RoC sees sense



Unfortunately they want Queen concert to unite the island not Pink Floyd



" I want it all I want it now" which has been the GC stan

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
26/07/2009 00:26

re msg 20

-"the UN is strong when not undermined. In 74 they were WAY outnumbered by TR troops, who had no right to be there. The US could have stopped it, but ass they were ENCOURAGING the actions by GR and TR ..." says mmmmmm



mmmmmm is trying to say is that if the tr had not turned up, the gc's would have wiped out the tc's after sorting out each other. the tr troops spoiled mmmmmm's plan . this is why it bothers him so much



-"Samson was a complete "idiot" to believe TR would stand by and watch his antics-"



mmmmmm is trying to say that samson was an "idiot" and not a murderer, and the chaps that gave him power in 74 were idiots and not murderers. these thick people are trying to convince the world today that all would have been fine if turkey had not invaded (quote mmmmmm). and one of these thick people who wishes to protect the murderers is unfortunately mmmmmm, as he believes all would have been fine if turkey had not invaded. a good liar, and not embaressed by it

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
26/07/2009 00:55

how can such an articulate chap be as thick as two planks or is it just that he wants to spread his gc propaganda. definately has good politician qualities as can lie and believe it himself.he even smiles a good candidate for gc president as he has more front than the curently elected. he has a consistency unlike any i have seen, i don't think i could do as well if i were getting paid for it.



quotes;



Then you must have missed the fact that...

I note you don't comment on my observation that

i may get through eventually

Could you be specific as to how you draw that conclusion?



You may have misunderstood

Strangely we are probably in complete agreement

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
26/07/2009 10:09

Dear Wanderer



re msg 21



" I want it all I want it now" which has been the GC stance" [guessing I got the truncated word !]



That's just not correct - it's more a sort of expectation GCs have - through "promises" made by previous leaders and "ignoring" the ramifications of the TC yes !



Mr AVERAGE GC refers to >> European norms of HR rights << - the right to live and work freely within the EU - that including the part many here refer to as "TRNC" . That;s why *I* want TR in the EU, as Mr GC might be MORE than willing to compromise if he wakes up and realises 80 times the number of TR citizens will have the right to settle in Limas(s)ol ;)

wanderer


Joined: 05/02/2009
Posts: 1653

Message Posted:
26/07/2009 11:07

M

The problem with Mr average GC he has not been told & taught from an early age what caused the intervention the school syllabus glosses over what happened .



He has been told endlessly by the politicians of his rights and how they will never succumb to the evil Turk



This is reinforced by the Church acting like the Abu Hansa of Christianity preaching the next crusade



This is then reinforced by family there are now 3 generations that have had this indoctrination since the intervention



With is such powerful drugs of misinformation & demagogy when are they going to wake up ?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
27/07/2009 10:08

Dear Wanderer



re msg 25



Well I TRIED.. in msg 24...



The GCs simply have expectations based on a series of UN and ECHR decisions.. Membership of the EU was "supposed" to be the panacea for all Cyprus' problems.



I smile ironically, when I hear a TC bemoan the EU for " letting them down"..



GCs feel the same ;)

milti2


Joined: 19/07/2009
Posts: 27

Message Posted:
27/07/2009 10:22

Mess 25.

"The problem with Mr average GC he has not been told & taught from an early age what caused the intervention the school syllabus glosses over what happened "

Wrong ! The average G/C knows full well who the guilty parties are .

I have personally on numerous occasions put the blame squarely on the extremists and the Greek Junta of 1974.

Turkeys plans for partitioning the island had been in place long before the invasion .

Turkey's continued occupation of the northern part of Cyprus , as seen by the UN , the EU and the entire international community is what every G/C and T/C too know and understand.

The nonsense about a genocide taking place are just the excuses used by the invaders.

Let me ask if anyone has any evidence that the killing spree was taking place some 6 WHOLE years before the Turkish invasion.

A very good T/C friend of mine , one of many , a highly educated lecturer , brought to my attention that some four T/Cs were shot in Famagusta a year or so before .

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
27/07/2009 11:22

re msg 22/3



Good Morning Yunus



A tip for you..



It is never wise to put words into people's mouth nor to call 'em "thick"... especially if one's profession is listed as "pool cleaner"..;)



If YOU choose to ignore the fact that the GR / GC right wing coup was never going to be "allowed" to be successful - more "fool" you.

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
27/07/2009 12:42

morning m,



don't always believe what you read dear mmmmmm, a re occuring problem in the past for you and also now i see. and when you look at something, look again to make sure that you saw correctly.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
27/07/2009 14:00

Dear Yunus



re msg 29 indulge this poor "thick" mmmmmm and tell me about my "problem".. or you could even respond to a question without the usual kneejerk "GC propaganda" response and DEAL with a something without being evasive or asking another question... !

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
27/07/2009 14:11

Mark



You are your own worst enemy.



You are well informed & read on the Cyprus situation, but have no personal involvement there, North or South.



You seem to be but a 'Barrack Room Lawyer', full of opinions but with no direct involvement.



I prefer to hear from people at 'The Coalface'.







Keep the discussions going though!



Rob

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
27/07/2009 17:29

Mark.....just because Younus describes himself as a "pool cleaner",please dont feel you may have the intellectual "upper hand" in your arguements. I know some very intelligent people who have "unassuming occupations". Younus certainly appears to have some valid points....we all know that ethnic cleansing was the "prime directive" for Samson.....he was the GC equivalent of the BORG!

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
27/07/2009 17:39

mark



I also I know some very clever people who are as thick as two short planks. ;-)

milti2


Joined: 19/07/2009
Posts: 27

Message Posted:
27/07/2009 19:12

mesg 32.

Just to clarify something , the military coup was orchestrated and carried out by Greek offices under the direct command of the Greek Junta .

Once Makarios had been forced to leave the Presidential Palace , the Junta first approached Klirides and asked that he forms a government , on refusing flatly to do so they turn to Vasos Lissarides who again refused .

Nikos Sampson was the only one willing to carry out the despicable wishes of the Junta.

The Cypriot people were the victims of extremism .

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
27/07/2009 19:34

Msg 34,lets be clear about one thing! The Cypriots MAY have been the victime of extremists,but I can assure you that Nikos Sampson was a "right nasty piece of work" to coin a phrase.The other little lawyer helping Makarios through all of the time prior to this was also of the same ilk. He was actually the biggest gun-runner in the entire Eastern Med. at that time,before the Mafia finished him ! What goes around.......comes around.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
27/07/2009 19:39

Iain



Previously on another thread I had asked you a question which you skirted around so I'll try again.



Would you be happy if you had to give up your house you had bought in the TRNC as part of a political settlement?

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
27/07/2009 20:20

Stuart,what exactly has that thread got to do with this ? You appear to be slightly obsessive about my house ! It is built and I have my Kocan. There was nobody "living" on the piece of land on which my villa was built in anyones living memory. Now if some GC or a Neaderthal man ,for that matter,comes around and politely asks me to give him,what I paid for then I would be only too happy to put him straight ! I am still at a loss as to how that would impinge tactically on the whole of Cyprus's political settlement..........I must have missed the bit in the deeds about that tactical importance of Esentepe in the political settlement of the TRNC/RoC situation.....answers on a post-card please!

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
27/07/2009 21:25

easy answer clarets ,the genocide started in 1963 , turkish army came to defend in 1974 , tcs suffered 11yrs of brutallity and murder at the hands of these bastxxds , hes gonna bring an old greek guy up to your place and say you robbed his land LMAO ,and yours ,

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
27/07/2009 22:15

Not at all sure how the comments of the Sweedish FM offer much support to the Orams case.



The Minister's comments clearly support the Turkish motive for intervention, much to the annoyance of the ROC administration.

More real recognition of the Turkish motive, its intervention under terms of gaurantee it holds, subsequent settlement of inter ethnic violence and the establishment of the long lasting peace may lead many to review their view upon the Cyprus problem and a solution.



The Orams would, is supose, certainly not be disadvantaged by any review of possible solutions to the current issues based upon an understanding of why the Turkish army intervened in the first place.

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
27/07/2009 22:38

re msg 30



"indulge this poor "thick" mmmmmm"



i never said you were poor dear mmmmmm, but can get you a job cleaning pools if you are interested.



as for the rest of your post dear mmmmmm, i have only been giving you a taste of your own medicine.



and i stand by my point and think you should not believe everything you read, hear or see. and if you had looked at the whole situation from an unbiased point of view, your opinion would not be so one sided, sorry if this upsets you as the truth often offends.

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
28/07/2009 00:17

"TR troops, who had no right to be there. "



taken from post 20



this statement insults my intelligents dear mmmmmm.



a person who can make this statement is either "thick", a politician or lost geeza.



we are not in primary school dear mmmmmm.



it was shocking, coming from the likes of yourself.



again, no offence to your person but to your mickey mouse statements



oh and before i forget, do you own a pool dear mmmmmm ? please do answer as this is not a mickey mouse question.

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
28/07/2009 00:31

rowlo....I will happily accept what any GC man he digs up,says,especially if he claims to own the land. I will the offer him a cup of tea or an Efes for the land and if he chooses not to accept it.....that will be the end of the matter !

minertor



Joined: 14/02/2009
Posts: 1238

Message Posted:
28/07/2009 00:41

I wish people would stop spelling "definitely" with an "a"

wanderer


Joined: 05/02/2009
Posts: 1653

Message Posted:
28/07/2009 01:38

M

You said "Well I TRIED.. in msg 24.."



Well you did try but not very well .

Its all postulating “ If they were “



"The average GC looks to the UN & EU and feels let down" paraphrased



Because they have not been given the full story by their leaders and they have been tutored from the pulpit over all this time with vitriol and the sin of omission

Facts I'm sorry to say.



The Guarantors’ of RoC



Greece was" flying in Tourists " and arms



1974

UK had just go into elections twice(Feb/Oct) miners strike” who rules Britain “ Ted Heath Feb

Lucky Jim Callaghan support us October



The IMF had to bail out UK



World the oil crisis

The three day week had just finished .

The NI "troubles" into third year



So they needed this like a hole in the head .



Britain was weak at the time yet another colony having a coup



The answer Sit on our hand & see how it turns out not our problem any more



TR



Did the right thing the only thing

wanderer


Joined: 05/02/2009
Posts: 1653

Message Posted:
28/07/2009 01:46

M

As to the Yunus comment by you



Never judge a person by the clothes they wear the job they do or the qualifications they hold



Many professors’ are in the top 2% for intelligence yet cannot cope with the worlds day to day problems



Many lowly people of lowly trades have millions following them and their beliefs and words



Shepherds and Fishermen Carpenters to name but few

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
28/07/2009 12:07

Msg 44 Wanderer...what did you expect with a bag of wind like Callaghan as a leader.He was nearly as bad as Blair and Brown!

wanderer


Joined: 05/02/2009
Posts: 1653

Message Posted:
28/07/2009 13:27

Clarets

I was just commenting on what was going on particularly in Britain.Its often thought Britain should have done more but they were struggling to keep their heads above water



The declining state of the economy goes back even further and it was part of the USA's overall plan to weaken the pound and make the dollar the dominant world currency (remember 5 shillings used to be referred to as a dollar 4 dollars to the pound in the 1930/40's)



Baron Joe Gormley added to the problem but with OPEC doubling the price of oil Britain stood no chance .

"The Barber Boom" left by the out going chancellor was a mess and banks collapsed

Do you feel we've been here before another property bubble 1971 £3000 for a new 3 bed semi end of 72 £6000



1974 I remember going into work & working by by candle light as it was power off day

All TV off at 10pm to save power

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
28/07/2009 13:41

Dear RobNJo



re msg 31



>>You are well informed & read on the Cyprus situation, but have no personal involvement there, North or South.

<<



Ah, I knew there would be a follow up to - "do you have relations / property in Cyprus."





Iain re msg

Rob, I have FRIENDS there and business interests - I adore the blooming island... ( must be insane !)

I am in the UK while my Step-son studies - and after, who knows where we'll live.. May be CY again.. depends on the Wife - if she will "trust" the RoC immigration



Why do I have a feeling you'd rather I didn't post ?! ..



Iain re 32



>>Mark.....just because Younus describes himself as a "pool cleaner",please dont feel you may have the intellectual "upper hand" in your arguements.<<



Inexcusable behaviour on my part.. I'm sorry Yunus... I shouldn't have "bitten" ... ! Iain, did you also write to Yunus "off-line" re his prior "rudeness" , too ! ? Keep watching out for that writ in the hot tub !

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
28/07/2009 13:54

Dear Yunus



re msg 40



I refer to "poor" as in pity - I was intimating you suggested I should be pitied - for my beliefs - I was not discussing my financial state !



>>as for the rest of your post dear mmmmmm, i have only been giving you a taste of your own medicine. <<



I wasn't aware I had been rude to you, prior to your referring to my "thickness" comment ? I am truly sorry, I sank so low to your inability to debate, reasonably !



>>and if you had looked at the whole situation from an unbiased point of view, your opinion would not be so one sided, sorry if this upsets you as the truth often offends.<<



I'm sorry, but I suggest you try looking in the mirror, first, before offering this advice...



>>TR troops, who had no right to be there. " <<



Sorry, if it "offends" you, but it's my viewpoint and that of the UN.. and it applied equally to GR troops.



Now, what was that you were saying about "bias"?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
28/07/2009 13:56

re msg 42 Clarets



>>rowlo....I will happily accept what any GC man he digs up,says,especially if he claims to own the land. I will the offer him a cup of tea or an Efes for the land and if he chooses not to accept it.....that will be the end of the matter !<<



Iain, I wonder if that's what the Orams' said before the writ...?! ;)

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
28/07/2009 18:27

Mark.....whether the Orams said it or not is somewhat academic Mark,as there really is no analogy between them and me.Since the IPC was set up(after the Orams case was heard,I believe) we now have a well travelled route of compensation. In my case this would only potentially involve land as there never has been an abode on it!

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
28/07/2009 18:40

Wanderer msg 47....now your'e making me feel all nostalgic again. I do seem to remember the miners strike was in 1984..... not 1974.I was in medical school in Sheffield at the time when "king Arthur" was defeated by Margaret.It was rather one sided...she had more balls,more brains and no combe over hair-do!

wanderer


Joined: 05/02/2009
Posts: 1653

Message Posted:
28/07/2009 19:02

Clarets

You were obviously too young to remember the second miners strike of the 70's every one a winner

Then the 80's King Arthur tried to better Baron Joe Gormley and started the strike in the spring its a bit like attacking Russia in November

Gormley was a Lancastrian & Arthur a Yorkshireman I pass no comment





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Union_of_Mineworkers_(Great_Britain)

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
28/07/2009 19:10

Iain



Re msg 37



Previously you have stated that the "owner" of the land on which your villa is built is the Turkish builder who from memory also lives in one of the villas.



It has been clarified at court that the legal owner of land is the original GC who owned it prior to 1974.



You may very well have a Kocan however it is not recognised by anyone outside Turkey.



It is not solely your villa which impinges a settlement but there are many ex-pats who have bought on Esdeger deeds, many still do not have the Kocan and will have no say on any potential settlement.



"There was nobody "living" on the piece of land on which my villa was built in anyones living memory. Now if some GC or a Neaderthal man ,for that matter,comes around and politely asks me to give him,what I paid for then I would be only too happy to put him straight !"....................



I wonder if David and Linda Orams had the same thoughts before the court summons?????

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
28/07/2009 19:27

Wanderer msg 53....not like the War of the Roses then.......!

wanderer


Joined: 05/02/2009
Posts: 1653

Message Posted:
28/07/2009 19:52

Clarets

Just goes to show how long it takes for disputes to die down I believe there is some ill feeling between the counties in spite of a unification under the Tudor rose!

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
28/07/2009 20:29

It is often quoted that the legal precident for title is legally held in the ROC land registry.



It is a well known fact that over 100,000 land and villa owners in the legal ROC still await issuance of their title deeds. It is mainly European investors including British buyers that are being sold short by the ROC administration.

The matter has already been brought up in Parlimentry question time.

It is also a fact that the registration and parcelisation of the Island stems from work done by the British during Colonial times.

It is a fact that in 1974.. pre intervention, much of the Island still remained unregistered. In 2008, it appears that more than 35% of land in the North is held by GC.



My view is that the ROC land registry is in dissarray, is unreliable as the definitive 1974 precident. Furthermore, it is very possible that many of the GC titles could be contested on the basis that title must be established as in exhistance and verified pre 1974.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
28/07/2009 23:23

Dear Iain



re 51



Yes, the IPC defence should be used in a RoC writ, but they'll retort about the TC property Guardian and it'll be off to the ECHR.. THAT's why I am "amused" that everyone getting worked up about the Apsotolides v Orams' case.



As I KEEP saying the "rump" RoC don't want more of such cases and they ain't wise to ask GCs to stay away from Turkey's IPC. They may simply give it more credence with the ECHR, when if they had piled in, TR would have probably not coped and offered VERY poor compo.



As it is now the ECHR have very little cases - involving where a TC / TR / third party country citizen is occupying land / property being claimed..

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
28/07/2009 23:30

Dear Warren / Waz



re 57



>>It is a well known fact that over 100,000 land and villa owners in the legal ROC still await issuance of their title deeds. It is mainly European investors including British buyers that are being sold short by the ROC administration. <<



Well, I'd check your sources as mine show 70% of CYPRIOTS are amongst those waiting. Expats = 30,000



http://www.propertywire.com/news/europe/cyprus-title-deed-200907233354.html



Not that this inaccuracy should deflect from the backlog. It has already be explained that the RoC banks and planning are "responsible " and this effects recent sales on new build.



You won't find a problem with deeds for pre-owned property ...

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
29/07/2009 00:21

mmmmm



I think the relevant point is that there are 1000,s of deeds that are awaiting issuance. This clearly is a reflection upon the current inacurracies within the ROC land registry.



Yes , of corse there are surely many legitamate and genuine ROC titles. There is also by the same token many that are not. What level of reliance should one put on such an erroneous system?

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
29/07/2009 00:47

dear mmmmmm



re msg 49



lots of sentences and statements which show little sign of intelligents sadly, they have no significant meaning unfortunately. thought process very primitive and still unable to establish facts which have been slapping you around the face for 35 years. a very primary school, play ground level of argumentative skill.



other members have answered you time and time again about the tr peace op. all you need to do is read the posts whilst not being such a " pistachio ", and maybe do some research of your own.



talk to the kosovan's about the u.n as their experiences are fresh



quote mmmmmm "I am truly sorry, I sank so low to your inability to debate, reasonably" !



dear mmmmmm, how can you go lower than the Marianas Trench. the level at which your argument starts !



oh and there's this



"Now, what was that you were saying about "bias"?



as if you have proven something dear mmmmmm. nothing worth noting in your post at all.

kind regards

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
29/07/2009 14:25

re 61



Waz/ Warren



Of course I accept you "apology" for your gross misrepresentation of the the facts re the %age of Brits caught up in the deeds farce relating to the boom build period.



re 62 Yunus



>>lots of sentences and statements which show little sign of intelligents sadly<<



Remember, I'm "thick as two short planks"....and it's *intelligence*, btw !



Yes, they have answered my responses re the TR intervention - but not one of them can give me an answer as to

1/ Why did TR and GR arm their respective ethnicities whislt claiming support for thr UN's peace-keeping mandate?



2/ Why did GR / TR intervene - as they had entrusted the UN ?



3/ WHY the UN asked them to leave and they stayed....?



4/ How did TR manage to opull together an invasion force in 5 days? - HINT: It was pre- planned, right down to the territory the US "allowed" them to take..



5/ Why the huge TR presence - still when the UN are nealy down to the hundreds?

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
29/07/2009 14:34

Mark Msg 59, I have friends trying to sell pre-owned property in RoC,and I can tell you that deeds(or lack of them) are a very real problem.

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
29/07/2009 14:37

Wanderer....that would be the......RED rose of Lancashire !

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
29/07/2009 14:48

Stuart Msg54....you are wrong on multiple counts ! The land was legally exchanged,and the current owner has sold part of it to the builder ,who does NOT live on site. The landowners son-in-law(belediye policeman) and daughter live in one of the villas. There was no previous abode anywhere on the site in anyones living memory. The bullmerd about some clarification in court of a previous GC owner is the most fanciful fantasy that I have heard since Labour stated they were going to win the next election ! There has been no court case pertaining to my villa nor the land it has occupied. Please send copies of the court manuscripts and references to current title deed if you can find such evidence ?!! I suspect you will have died of old age by the time you find them.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
29/07/2009 15:15

Iain



Are you having a laugh?



Can you show me any evidence of GC who have "exchanged" what they owned in the North with the exception of those very few cases at the property commission?



I thought you had your Kocan? So who is the landowner in your opinion? You (after all you claimed you had the Kocan), the belediye policmans father in law or the GC who has the original deeds prior to 74?



If you care to do some research you will see that GC owned land prior to 74 is still legally owned by that person(s). I didnt say it but the ECHR did.

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
29/07/2009 15:57

Actually I have my Kocan for my villa,as stated previously.You obviously have "evidence " that the land wasnt exchanged ! Where are the documents from the court re GC ownership ? Who is this mysterious claimed owner of the exchanged land ? ECHR....dont make me laugh. Greek Attorney Generals bearing gifts......or was that judgements ! They are a bunch of sycophantic merchant bankers,who go with the political flow when and where it suits them.

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
29/07/2009 16:34

dear mmmmmm,



1/ Why did TR and GR arm their respective ethnicities whislt claiming support for thr UN's peace-keeping mandate?



1/ the gr were trying to clens the island and the tc were trying to survive, the un were not doing their job.



2/ Why did GR / TR intervene - as they had entrusted the UN ?



2/ the tc were getting slaughtered and the un dd not interviene to stop it.



3/ WHY the UN asked them to leave and they stayed....?



how could the un now be trusted, look at kosovo.



4/ How did TR manage to opull together an invasion force in 5 days? - HINT: It was pre- planned, right down to the territory the US "allowed" them to take..



if you stop reading one sided propaganda, you will see that in the first evening of conflict, the fighting was head to head as the tr was not as well prepared as you think.



5/ Why the huge TR presence - still when the UN are nealy down to the hundreds?



5/ to protect the tc's, why else? should we trust the un?



your turn;

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
29/07/2009 16:56

Iain



with respect do you have much of an idea of what you are talking about?



You say you have the Kocan but the landowner is someone else? Are you sure about that?



How can I or anyone else have evidence of something that has never taken place re exchange of land?



Can you show anyone evidence of a GC "exchanging" land with the exception of the few cases at the property commission? C'mon we all know that there is masses of "esdeger" land in the north give us some example of some which have been "exchanged"



The same "exchanged" land and being sold this "exchanged" land has led to the Orams case

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
29/07/2009 16:58

please answer dear mmmmmm



1/ do you not believe that cyprus would have joined with greece if turkey had not interviened ?



2/ do you believe that the tc's would not have been wiped out after the gc's had finished killing each other, prior to the tr intervention in 74 ?



3/ what would you have been preaching today if the tr had not interviened and the tc's wiped out, or the few remaining running back to turkey ? remember crete ?



4/ why did the tc's have to live with no food, medication and water for 11 years prior to the intervention ?



5/ where was the international community or the u.n for these 11 years ?



6/ why did the gc's not stick to their previous agreement to share power with the tc's ?



7/ why should a tc still be punished today, for the "mistakes" ( quote mmmmmm) made by the gc's 1960 until 1974.



8/ how can you say that anybody from the roc has any right to a grain of sand from the kktc.



show me you're human and not a propaganda machine !

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
29/07/2009 23:08

re 69

Yunus

>>1/ the gr were trying to clens the island and the tc were trying to survive, the un were not doing their job. <<

SOME Greeks and SOME GCs were claiming the island for Greece... the UN were outnumbered and out-gunned.. WEHRE did all the arms come from? .. GR / TR said they agreed UN were to be the peace-keepers.. When did the atrocities and massacres start.. ? Before or AFTER TR landed ?



>>2/ the tc were getting slaughtered and the un dd not interviene to stop it.<< When were TCs getting "slaughtered?" .. Look no-one is claiming that TCs living in enclaves was a good thing..TR came and THEN it became a blood bath - ( "peace -movement" ?! )



>>3/ how could the un now be trusted, look at kosovo. << Not sure what you mean.. unless you are Serbian, or another Orthodox nation - the UN were seen as "saviours"

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
29/07/2009 23:16

cont from 72



>>4/ if you stop reading one sided propaganda, you will see that in the first evening of conflict, the fighting was head to head as the tr was not as well prepared as you think. << No army is, when trying to make a beach head.. Many GCs recall the first Turkish soldiers as "cannon fodder", surely on drugs as they merely, walked onto machine gun fire.. Other GCs recount that they merely allowed the Turks to drive past - they were ordered NOT to attack.. Meanwhile the Greeks and Turks shot at their own ships / planes and sank 'em / brought 'em down ..



>>5/ to protect the tc's, why else? should we trust the un? <<



Where you on the island in Apr 2004?! - there was a little vote - called Annan.. Can you remember how TCs and some TR "settlers" voted to "say good bye " to TR troops - save for 950 ?! Sadly, the GCs had a leader who thought he could get a "better deal" and the GCs had elected a leader JUST as intransigent as the then "fallen" Mr Denktash..

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
29/07/2009 23:43

re msg 73



dear mmmmmm



<< No army is, when trying to make a beach head.. Many GCs recall the first Turkish soldiers as "cannon fodder", surely on drugs as they merely, walked onto machine gun fire.. Other GCs recount that they merely allowed the Turks to drive past - they were ordered NOT to attack.. Meanwhile the Greeks and Turks shot at their own ships / planes and sank 'em / brought 'em down ..





-the tr military landed on the island with their guns not loaded as they were not here for war but as a "peace movement" (quote mmmmmm). this is why the gc's probably thought they were on drugs. -brt tv, live veteran of war account on 20 july 2009.



- "Look no-one is claiming that TCs living in enclaves was a good thing.."



this is the problem i'm having with you mmmmmm, no one did anything about it but now the whole world is worried about getting the gc's their land back !

is human lfe or money more important in your book mmmmmm ?



please also answer my over questions .

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
30/07/2009 00:39

mmmmmm



Msg 63.

I think you are mistaken. No appology given because no appology due.

The relevant point has been made and illustrated very clearly.



I suspect that your somwhat inflated ego is getting the better of you.

Woodspeckie


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 2263

Message Posted:
30/07/2009 01:15

cyprus-mail.com/news. ECHR endorsed a friendly settlement between GC woman & Turkey with Turkey agreeing to return part of her property in the north along with £1.5 million sterling compensation in lieu of other properties as well as for loss of use. She owns 109 plots of land in Kyrenia and filed a case against Turkey in 1990 for being refused access to her properties.This is Turkey showing that it returns properties back to their owners. There are hundreds of thousands of GC who have lost property and not had their rights restored.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
30/07/2009 01:35

Dear Woodspeckie



re msg 76



the link you need is



http://cyprus-mail.com/news/main.php?id=47068&cat_id=1

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
30/07/2009 01:43

re msg 75



>>No appology given because no appology due.



The relevant point has been made and illustrated very clearly.<<



My point was (and is) you claimed 70% of folk waiting for deeds on new builds were Brits..



The ACTUAL figure quoted was 30% - for expats ( non Cypriots)



Now we know that the vast majority of afflicted folks are LOCALS...



If you'd only paid more attention...

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
30/07/2009 09:46

Dear Yunus



re msg 74



>>-the tr military landed on the island with their guns not loaded as they were not here for war but as a "peace movement" (quote mmmmmm). this is why the gc's probably thought they were on drugs. -brt tv, live veteran of war account on 20 july 2009. <<



I note you didn't get the irony in my "peace movement" reference.. Tell me, did Ataturk think the Greeks were bringing peace to Asia Minor when they landed with the blessing of the French and British ?



Did the British think the Argententines were friendly in 1982?



Yunus, you keep forgetting the the TR Army united warring GCs .. it kicked off atrocities all over the island.. If the TR army weren't firing how come we had "blue on blue" ( they shot and killed their own side ) incidents?



I also note you ignored the the fact that some elements of the National Guard were ordered NOT to fire - as it was believed it would aggravate the situation.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
30/07/2009 09:54

( cont) re 74



Yunus, re the enclaves..



>>this is the problem i'm having with you mmmmmm, no one did anything about it but now the whole world is worried about getting the gc's their land back ! <<



Interesting you refer to the "whole world" and wonder why they are wrong and you are "correct" .. I suppose this is the "great GC propaganda machine", again?



Look, Yunus, the enclaves are something that should bring shame on GCs, in the same way the mass expulsion of GCs did.. ALL Cypriots should be allowed the choice to live and work where they please.. but I firmly believe that folk like you - who believe t'other side can't be trusted- need to be reassured. That's why the bizonal federated option was and is a good idea.



The current surreal situation is damaging the REAL TCs more than anyone else.



>>is human lfe or money more important in your book mmmmmm ? <<



To ask the question is insulting, and says a lot more about you than me..

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
30/07/2009 10:45

dear mmmmmm,



awaiting your answers for msg 71

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
30/07/2009 11:02

re msg 71 Yunus .. pls be patient !



1/ do you not believe that cyprus would have joined with greece if turkey had not interviened ?<< No



2/ do you believe that the tc's would not have been wiped out after the gc's had finished killing each other, prior to the tr intervention in 74 ? No



3/ what would you have been preaching today if the tr had not interviened and the tc's wiped out, or the few remaining running back to turkey ? remember crete ? ..and Asia minor, and the Istanbul Pogroms



4/ why did the tc's have to live with no food, medication and water for 11 years prior to the intervention ? They must be a truly remarkable ppl to live so long under such conditions !



5/ where was the international community or the u.n for these 11 years ? Trying to help while TR and GR undermined



6/ why did the gc's not stick to their previous agreement to share power with the tc's ? Why did the TCs veto to make govt unworkable? .. Could it be to be sure of the excuse for Taksim?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
30/07/2009 11:11

cont from 71



7/ why should a tc still be punished today, for the "mistakes" ( quote mmmmmm) made by the gc's 1960 until 1974. ?



TCs allowed their leaders to "punish" them.. declaring "independence" is the very thing blocking progress and giving GCs the legal upper hand :(

Please don't misquote me... the "mistakes" were GC rt wing extremists and Greek Junta Military trying to impose Enosis. Misquoting is something "propagantists" do....



8/ how can you say that anybody from the roc has any right to a grain of sand from the kktc.



"KKTC"/ "TRNC" has no right to "claim" the sand, either.. don't take my "propaganda" word for it.. the "clever" GCs "hoodwinked" the UN security Council into confirming that the RoC is all of Cyprus...



Time for BOTH sides to compromise..



>>show me you're human and not a propaganda machine !<< I keep asking you to look in the mirror before making these statements.

Aussie


Joined: 17/06/2007
Posts: 657

Message Posted:
30/07/2009 11:22

6m



Hi



Seeing as it seems to be multiple question time I thought these might help us better understand your views/ position on this



1) Do you maintain that the amount quality and scale of weapons delivered to GC's and TC's up to 1974 were comparable given the fare greater control the GC population had of most of the country ports etc ?



2) Wasn't the relative weakness of the UN forces and mandate sufficient reason for the TC population to arm itself against a much stronger GC population given the events of the 1960's ?



3) Do you suggest a serious widespread TC campaign in support of Taksim would have occurred in the absence of independence from Great Britain and the Enosis movement ?



4) Do you believe violence in support of Taksim was any where near as widespread or on the same scale of the Enosis movement both before and after independence ?





Thanks





Aussie

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
30/07/2009 11:43

re 84 Aussie



1) Do you maintain that the amount quality and scale of weapons delivered to GC's and TC's up to 1974 were comparable given the fare greater control the GC population had of most of the country ports etc ? I don't see how I, or anyone else could claim anything with authority. Most of the arms arrived in a clandestine manner.



2) Wasn't the relative weakness of the UN forces and mandate sufficient reason for the TC population to arm itself against a much stronger GC population given the events of the 1960's ? Nothing "weak" about the mandate, rather the strength of will to ignore it - by BOTH sides. Most GCs saw at Kokkina / Erenköy the lengths the Turkish Military would go to to keep a beach head.. dropping of Naplam.



3) Do you suggest a serious widespread TC campaign in support of Taksim would have occurred in the absence of independence from Great Britain and the Enosis movement ? I *am* suggesting that Taksim was always the agenda for Mr Denktash

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
30/07/2009 11:48

85 cont



4) Do you believe violence in support of Taksim was any where near as widespread or on the same scale of the Enosis movement both before and after independence ?



No.. and I don't believe there were that many in favour of violence to get Enosis, either and those seeking Taksim, were just as ruthless - killing Turks - to stir up hatred/ mistrust... campaigns to boycott GC businesses on pain of death...etc



Lest you think me "biased" - yes GCs had used the latter tactics re cooperating with the British in the late fifties - during the struggle for independence.

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
30/07/2009 13:52

Stuart,I have my Kocan as I said on numerous occasions,in English.....which language do you actually understand, or do I put it in a way, too complex for your cortex? There is no evidence at all that the land on which my villa is built was ever owned by GC. The GC Registry Office,as we all know,is awash with falsified documents and still over 100000 properties in the south still await their deeds. A great deal of TC land was handed over to GC's by the British,who had no right to do so.Whose land is it anyway,really just depends on how far you want to go back in history.Nobody,actually owns land.....we just live on it.The sooner the GC's accept the fact and get over themselves,the sooner we can all move on. Peace in the last 35 years has been solely due to the fact that the TR army has protected TC's from a bunch of murdering terrorists set up by a fascist Junta. Now I dont think you'd be so supportive of the land grab,if Adolf and his boys were banging at the door......would you?

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
30/07/2009 14:24

Iain



You seem to be clutching at straws? Can you provide evidence of any "exchange" of land taking place? No instead you choose to question my linguistic abilities? Are you sure you are not confusing yourself here?



You question my understanding of English when firstly you stated that the landowners son in law lives in one of the villas on your development, to you have your kocan and now in you post in msg 88 you state that "no one actually owns land........we just live on it." So are you now saying that all title deeds are not worth the paper they are written on the world over?



You are making some really wild claims now Iain. When did the British had over TC land to GC's?



Iain tip of the day......"when in a hole, stop digging" ;-)

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
30/07/2009 17:24

dear mmmmmm re msg 84 85



thanks for your replies. great fun



dear plectrum

re msg 87



wikipedia ?



At around 05:00, two Greek Cypriot motor torpedo boats, the T-1 and T-3, were dispatched from Kyrenia harbour to engage the Turkish naval flotilla which had now been detected approaching the coastline. The T-1 was hit by 40mm anti-aircraft fire and sinks, while a few minutes later, the T-3 was destroyed by combined fire from ships and aircraft, and sunk with the loss of all but one of its crew [22]



is this the part you are refering too dear plectrum,



it is a statement by "Hellenic Nationalist Page - Cyprus 1974 Timeline"



the statement i made was from a tr soldier actually on the landing boat on that day and time.

kind regards plectrum



note; wikipedia not a great source. what were you saying about credibility?



re gumbre, fiye hade siga siga, gadalavez !

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
30/07/2009 20:13

dear mmmmm



every turkish soldier came onto the island with the words BARIS ICIN SAVAS engraved in their brains,

it,s engraved in stone ,do you know what that means .



baris icin savas ,thats exactly what was achieved .



we turkish cypriots were let down by the rest of the world then and we are been let down still .



if it was not for turkey ,cyprus would now belong to greece ,and the rest of the world would gloss over the whole

thing ,as if it never happened .



musin



long live the kktc

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
30/07/2009 21:31

mmmmmm

sorry no cause is served by your pedantics. The point and case is very clear in my original post 57.

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
30/07/2009 22:03

re msg 91



dear gringish



"a bloke on a landing craft"



he is a war veteran who was on brt on the 20 july 2009,



20 july 1974, the day kktc was born. we are free and we are here to stay on our side of the island. no



matter what anybody thinks or does. as for breaking international laws, i absolutely love it. it brings a smile to



my face it is the high light of my day.



kind regards

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
30/07/2009 23:38

re msg 95



dear gringish



wow amazing, that changes absolutely everything. how could i have made such a terrible error. i have let everybody down. you win grigish. keep up the good work while i go for a swim and a massage



p.s does this mistake mean that ( according to international law of course)i have to give back my 5300 sq meters ex 1974 not 1983 greek title land in girne back ? happy days

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
31/07/2009 11:21

Stuart........in one instance I was talking about my individual circumstances and in the other I was making generic references about "not actually owning the land we live on".I thought maybe your educational attainment might have enabled you to discern between the two. I now know I will need to keep it simpler for you! "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it"....Aristotle.....you might want to take a look sometime?

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
31/07/2009 12:44

Iain



Ironic really that you now question "my education" whilst you are so obviously in need of some regarding Cyprus.



So the your individual circumstances are that you "the landowners son-in-law lives on your development" to "Stuart, I have my Kocan"...............contradictions??????



Why dont you answer some basic questions in the English language which you claim to have a superior knowledge of?



Show us some proof of any GC exchanging land with the exception of the limited cases at the property commission?



If you could make it in as simple language for us "educationally challenged" ?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
31/07/2009 12:48

re 92 Musin M



>if it was not for turkey ,cyprus would now belong to greece<



Hmm, let's ignore the FACT that the US was involved in the whole thing and would not have let that happen - I doubt even the Labour govt of the UK would, either.. let alone the UN ..



Did you note the UN asked that all third party country troops leave the RoC .. not JUST TR ?



re 93 Waz/ Warren



There is nought pedantic in observing your unfortunate predilection to misquoting and failing to acknowledge and / or apologise for posting misleading info - possibly to promote your contention.



re 90 Yunus



I'm glad you "enjoyed" them - I was hoping you would have responded in kind with point by point ripostes of a substantial nature - if you could... looking forward to hearing them and further debate ;)

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
31/07/2009 14:28

Stuart, I will put it as clearly and concisely as possible.....so that you are able to understand! 1) I have my Kocan....so I own the villa! 2)The landowner who sold the land(that he owned) to the builder of the villas has a daughter and a son-in-law.He is a policeman.He lives in another of the villas(which he has the Kocan for and therefore owns) 3) Debating the relative merits of our educational upbringing and talents is food for another thread. I am happy to debate our relative strengths and weaknesses in that area. I will be happy so send you the list of academic titles I own (along with my Kocan) and the positions I hold within the various academic institutions that I frequent...... hopefully that clarifies the matter!

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
31/07/2009 19:52

The Greek Cypriot village of Ayios Amvrosios (now known as Esentepe) prior to the 1974 intervention had a population consisting of 1543 Greek Cypriots who owned all of the land and property in the village. No Turkish Cypriots resided in this village, hence nearly all the property being exchange or TMD. Vast acres of the village was owned by several land owners who were predominately agricultural and animal farmers.

The village was renamed by the TC's that left their homes in the Pathos area, in remembrance of the village they left behind.



Perhaps the following will help you decide who the true owner of the land is and help you look at it through the eyes of the TC and GC?

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
31/07/2009 19:53

"'I'm happy to be home, so sad I can't stay'



The first tears began to flow long before they reached their village. The Chrysafis family, who run the Station restaurant in the Greek Cypriot part of Nicosia, never believed that they would see their former home in the Turkish sector of Cyprus again.



Last week that changed - and like thousands of others they were taking the opportunity provided by Rauf Denktash, the elderly president of the Turkish Cypriot enclave, to visit the north of the island for the first time in 29 years.



The opening of the border, announced without warning on Monday night, was like the collapse of the Berlin Wall for Cypriots who have lived for a generation on a divided island. In the days since, thousands have flocked across the Green Line, the ceasefire zone manned by United Nations troops since the incursion by Turkish forces in 1974.



Athos Chrysafis, 35, an official with Cyprus Airways in Nicosia, was six when he last saw his village in the north.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
31/07/2009 19:55

On Friday he waited hours at a checkpoint by the Ledra Palace Hotel, in Nicosia, where harassed British troops from the UN contingent tried to control the crowds frustrated at the slow pace of Turkish bureaucracy, until finally he was able to cross over and negotiate the hire of a bus for his family.



For the equivalent of £60, they travelled freely around the north for the rest of the day, visiting former family homes, until forced by a midnight curfew to return.



Their initial destination was Ayios Amvrosios, renamed Esentepe by the Turks, just 30 miles from Nicosia: the journey took an hour along a winding mountain road.



As the 25-seater bus, a bone-shaker from Kyrenia, reached the crest of the Halesko mountains, Mr Chrysafis's mother, Tspina, 55, a former nurse, began weeping softly. "I feel happy and sad," she said. "Happy that I have come back. Sad that I can't stay."

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
31/07/2009 19:56

hey asked the bus driver to stop on the mountain road so that they could pick wild flowers - yellow bunches of Tears of Madonna - to take back to their grandparents in the south, who were too old to attempt the journey.



In the village came the unexpected. Mrs Chrysafis shouted excitedly: "There's my father's coffee shop! There's the cinema! If I die tomorrow I will be happy!"



And then they saw a modest, white-washed bungalow with a donkey braying in the back garden surrounded by wild flowers. Mr Chrysafis's aunt, Doxoulla Mita burst into tears. It had been her home before her family was forced to flee to the south. The bungalow had been allocated to a Turkish Cypriot woman and her husband who had themselves been uprooted by the civil war from a former Turkish village near Paphos in the south.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
31/07/2009 19:58

The two women met in the lane by the side of the house and embraced, their cheeks wet. Seval Arslan, 39, offered coffee and slices of white goat's cheese and told her visitors: "I feel very bad because the owner of the house is here and she is crying."



Her husband, Adnan, said: "This house is not our house. This house is your house. We want to go to our house."



Mr Chrysafis said: "My family would like to go back and live in their village houses here again, but I don't see that happening."



Their emotional journey reached its climax in a peeling, grey, three-bedroom house in the centre of the village. Mr Chrysafis's father, Andreas, 55, a nurse at the time of the invasion, stood on the balcony with a sweeping view of the unspoiled coastline with tears in his eyes and said: "We married in this house."



The reaction of the Chrysafis family showed that most Cypriots will not be satisfied until the land issue is settled.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
31/07/2009 20:06

mmmmmmm

Your ego goes before you. it is unfortunate that pedantics prevail in almost all your posts. They become very tiresome and you relinquish nothing whilst winning nothing.

If you dont mind I shall take the moral high ground and close this particular debate on the grounds that it simply undermines my original and very valid point.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
31/07/2009 21:08

Dear Waz/ Warren



re 106



You can kid yourself.. this "ego" knows you were caught out - twisting the truth to try and ram home a point - and simply won't admit it ..



You can be sure folks are as quick to jump on me .. so try not to take it personally

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
31/07/2009 21:23

Hi Bradus



I have a good friend called Achilleas - a British born GC who is "from" Ayios Amvrosios aka Esentepe (sp)



He arrived in Cyprus aged ( nearly ) six to make a new life with his parents who had been left land by his Grand Dad.



They lived in a Caravan while the house was being constructed.



It never got finished - by them.. They ended up sleeping on the beach - when the Turks landed - awaiting airlifts to Hermes by Heliocopter... He thought this a GREAT experience..



He got to wear the Captain's Hat and steer Hermes... He and his family were taken around the island to the Eastern SBA nr to Lima(s)sol, spent some time in a tent, there, and ended up back in the UK.



The family had to live with relatives - who owned a fish and chip shop.



He bears NO animosity to Turks or TCs - he finally crossed over in 2006 - for a few minutes with me - as he was told all sorts of crap by GCs and saw things for himself.



He was pro Annan..

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
31/07/2009 21:46

re msg 99 mmmmm



the us ,un and the uk would have stopped it,er sorry at which point would this of happened .



wake up son and take your greek hat off once in a while.



i ask you again please do not pretend to understand turkish cypriots ,you don,t .



waz has valid points about your ego.



musin



long live the kktc

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
31/07/2009 22:05

Hi Mark,



People tend to see property only in terms of the money they have spent and as a possession rather than a home with all its history and memories. There seems to be many people using what happened to the TC's to justify the purchase of GC property. Yet only those involved in the loss of property and family should be free to do this, otherwise don't foreign purchasers merely benefit from the misery and loss already caused?



The emotional aspects of what happened to the many innocent TC's and GC's are rarely considered.

Its good to be reminded of this aspect.

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
31/07/2009 22:18

dear mmmmmm



i've answered your questions and you have answered mine to the best of your knowledge. although unsatisfactory, my goal is not to educate you as i realise you are a lost cause !





my main goal is to trigger other members who have not found out the facts, to investigate for themselves, if they are interested.

everybodies conclusion will be different as we all have our own understanding and no 2 people are the same. i respect personal opinions 100%. maybe you should try if you still have it in you ! i just want you to know the field is not empty for you to run riot as you are a "post happy member" of the forum. my aim is not to preach or brain wash dear mmmmmm, this is your job.



kind regards

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
31/07/2009 22:19

dear mmmmmm



i've answered your questions and you have answered mine to the best of your knowledge. although unsatisfactory, my goal is not to educate you as i realise you are a lost cause !





my main goal is to trigger other members who have not found out the facts, to investigate for themselves, if they are interested.

everybodies conclusion will be different as we all have our own understanding and no 2 people are the same. i respect personal opinions 100%. maybe you should try if you still have it in you ! i just want you to know the field is not empty for you to run riot as you are a "post happy member" of the forum. my aim is not to preach or brain wash dear mmmmmm, this is your job.



kind regards

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
31/07/2009 22:22

Good points Mark & Bradus.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
31/07/2009 23:46

mmmmm

msg 108 et al



Thank you for this story which is portrayed as if only a week ago. It is clearly a traumatic experience of some 35 years ago.Your friend is now in middle age and I am sure that his life has developed and he has moved on. Judging by his attitude that you relay, he has.

It is a fact that your friend is very unlikely to return to Esentepe because of the political situation on Cyprus.

Many displaced people from the dark 1970,s have indeed moved on, have rebuilt their lives, have accepted the prevailing peace and are happy.

Some, primarily on the ROC side of the Island, have not. These people remain bitter, disillusioned, and unhappy. Thankfully the latter are in decline as time takes care of the past.



Mark, I do whish you too would let go of the past in preferrence of the future. Anan was rejected it was not and is not a solution. 1974 was 35 years ago, yet you and many others continually rant on about the atrocities, fine detail and documented history of

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
31/07/2009 23:50

cont.....those dark times.



It is a fact that World History is full of references to atrocities, genocide, war, deprivation and strife.

All will and do fade into History. New and vibrant life takes its place upon the polluted ground of conflict.

Cyprus with its history and current issues is no different.

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
01/08/2009 13:03

Bradus Msg 101,is well put, but in no way does it help when the land at Esentepe was actually given to the GC'c many years prior to 1974....by the British ! Depending on how far you go back in history,decides the ownership of this land....is THE ONLY REAL ANSWER. The GC's must stop living the past and move on. 6 year olds do not become fixated with a house if they have lived away from it for 35 years....that is fact. To make out that a six year old boy desperately wants to return to a house 35 years later flies in the face of every text and all the practical experience I have ever picked up as a physician....it is just NOT human nature !

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
01/08/2009 13:16

Dear Yusin



re msg 111



>>i've answered your questions and you have answered mine to the best of your knowledge. although unsatisfactory, my goal is not to educate you as i realise you are a lost cause ! <<



A kop out.. What ACTUALLY occurred.. You asked me - I replied.. and asked you .. the above is your response... :(



re 114/115 Warren / Waz



>>It is a fact that your friend is very unlikely to return to Esentepe because of the political situation on Cyprus.

<<



Hmm, AGAIN, Warren you are incorrect.. I hope to persuade him to use the Turkey's IPC to claim compo for loss of use and regain the land that is now his ;)



If he does so, I'll keep you posted ..



I think you ARE one of the posters who confuses his feelings for TCs with the rights of foreigners to take advantage of periods of ethnic cleansing and surreality of unrecognised "states"... Many a little TOO "conveniently" - as you keep tripping up re facts..

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
01/08/2009 13:19

re 116 Iain



>>the land at [Ayios Amvrosios /] Esentepe was actually given to the GC'c many years prior to 1974....by the British<<



Hmm, if you are basing this on the fact that the British annexed Cyprus in 1914 - following lease agreement with the Ottoman Sultan who was deep in debt, and this annexation was ratified by the Treaty of Lausanne



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lausanne



So, by GCs I THINK you meant Cypriots... nice try at absolving your "obligations" no matter how tenuous you might feel they are ;)



Looking forward to seeing how your team do this year and YES, a might envious .. hope Leeds don't have to wait as long to a return to the top flight .. ;)

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
01/08/2009 13:41

Hi Mark.....we are playing your boys today....at the Turf ! Difficult divisions to get out of especially when the parchute payments dry up!

I meant Cypriots rather than GC's.....but it was actually the GC's who benefitted from British generosity

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
01/08/2009 13:50

>>we are playing your boys today....at the Turf <<



) I was hoping you wouldn't remind me of THAT... the closest we will get to the Premiership ?!



>>it was actually the GC's who benefitted from British generosity<<



How so, the British were administering the land registry ..

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
01/08/2009 14:02

Bradus Msg 110."The emotional aspects of what happened to the many innocent TC's and GC's are rarely considered.



Its good to be reminded of this aspect. " Digging up the past only serves to re-open wounds that should have healed 35 years ago. Human nature is such that if you keep filling the youth with vitriol from the past.....nothing ever changes or improves. I am happy to compensate for the loss of the scrub land on which my villa stands,if that previous ownership is proven beyond doubt....and no compensatory mechanism was triggered prior to the current date. I would never try to default on what is due......IF,in fact it is due !

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
01/08/2009 14:25

This is not about filling the youth with vitriol from the past. A solution with regards to the property situation is much more likely to stop the vitriol than the current bury your head in the sand and simply dismiss it as the past and things like this happen in wars. Surely It is about what is rightly and legally yours? In your view which is supported by the the TRNC and Turkish stance, your land and villa is yours.



Unfortunately others would argue that the rightful owner is the one that had the title deeds pre 1974.



Putting aside the emotional aspects, which you seem to want to dismiss, let us look at this from a purely financial view point. I was forced to leave my land, livelihood and home, through no fault of my own. I flee and am given refugee housing. I am not allowed to buy this house and I have to seek employment and begin purchasing and accumulating all the wealth and belongings I left behind.



I am told by the ECHR's and my government that I still own the prop

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
01/08/2009 14:35

property. Do I sell it you at 1974 prices? Or do I want it back to sell at today's price?



Why should I consider your needs? Did you consider mine when you bought it much cheaper than the going rate, because it was disputed property? You were not involved in the TC/GC problems you merely benefited from them.



So Clarets when you say you are prepared to compensate did you have in mind £60.000 for the true value of the land?

If so I respect your decision and would be critical of the GC that refused your offer. If you expect to pay peanuts then I feel the Gc has a legal right to take back what belongs to them.

Nice choice of words "shrub land" as most would refer to it as " building plots"

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
01/08/2009 14:38

Typo

Scrub land not shrub land.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
01/08/2009 16:38

Iain



re msg 100



So you own the villa but do you own the land upon which it is built?



Where is the proof to back up your arguement reference Greek Cypriots "exchanging" land?



As for education Iain if you feel it necessary to post these documents please do. You were questioning my "education attainment" not the other way around.



Im still awaiting the proof of the Greek Cypriot land exchange.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
01/08/2009 17:26

msg 117 mmmmm

I think your friend should make his own mind up upon his future. Perhaps you would be best keep out of the matter; unless, of course you have been asked OR you indeed have and axe to grind yourself.

IPC or not. Lets face it. A return to Esentepe is very unlikely indeed. Esentepe is a very very different place to what it was 35yrs ago.



I know of no foreigners rights that allow what you describe. I am fully aware of the TRNC, its laws, its people and its culture. I like many others have simply acted as I see fit, proper and just. You Mark,clearly disagree with this course of action. That is your perrogative. Good luck with your clear campaign. I hope that your friend gets some compensation for his historical family loss. I hope that he continues to strive for happiness in his home and that he continues to accept the position and moves on.

Perhaps you too should direct your efforts towards acceptance of the new and modern Cyprus.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
01/08/2009 18:59

Dear Waz,



re 127



>>I think your friend should make his own mind up upon his future. Perhaps you would be best keep out of the matter; unless, of course you have been asked OR you indeed have and axe to grind yourself. <<



) Spoken like a true Gent who knows "B all", as is your want .. OF COURSE I WAS ASKED !



>>IPC or not. Lets face it. A return to Esentepe is very unlikely indeed.<<



WHY? what is your substantiate reasoning, please?!



>>[Ayios Amvrosios /] Esentepe is a very very different place to what it was 35yrs ago.<<



!! AND?!.. So is Limas(s)ol or Episkopi, but TCs are able to get their pads back ! ..



The rest of your post is you usual response - akin to burying your head in the sand - and you will not doubt keep having "surprises" re the ECHR / IPC..



>>Perhaps you too should direct your efforts towards acceptance of the new and modern Cyprus.<<



I already pointed out my "failed" contributions/ efforts .. what are yours ?

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
01/08/2009 23:14

msg 128 mmm My substantiate reasoning is that the TRNC is far too well established and separated from the ROC. The division in culture,language and aspirations make for pemanent bi-zonal seperation.



We agree that almost all of the Island is very different than it was 35 years ago. You cannot possibly hope or forsee a return to the old days. It will not and is most definately not, as you seem to believe,about the ability to claim and litigate and compensate. The Island must move on if it is to compete in the international arena for trade, tourism and investment.



My contributions are more commercial. Investment, support and encouragment in and for the new peacefull and prosperous Cyprus.

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
03/08/2009 16:39

Stuart,I am still questioning your educational attainment ! You keep asking the same question without taking heed of the answers......that speaks volumes about you ! The deed or Kocan is a document I have in my possession......that is REAL. A fanciful claim to own the land only,from a GC or anyone else in the past, is fantasy and so far you have no substantiation of any such claim.......you still have not provided any proof of such,documentary or otherwise. You are trying to live in a small part of the past....history did not begin in 1974, Stuart.

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
03/08/2009 16:56

Bradus,Msg 122/123....." this is not about filling the youth with vitriol from the past. A solution with regards to the property situation is much more likely to stop the vitriol than the current bury your head in the sand and simply dismiss it as the past and things like this happen in wars. Surely It is about what is rightly and legally yours? In your view which is supported by the the TRNC and Turkish stance, your land and villa is yours"......what emotion....you have literally shot yourself in the foot ! History in modern terms started several thousand years ago.....not 1974,when the Turkish Army arrived to prevent the TOTAL GENOCIDE of an ethnic group from Cyprus. Nikos Sampson was certainly trying to make Enosis and the extinction of the TC community a certainty, and the Turkish Army prevented that.....it enabled people to live peacefully again without the fear of terror groups from Greece and GC's knocking at their door in the middle of the night. Your reference to £60,000

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
03/08/2009 16:59

is laughable. Where do you think my villa is built,Chelsea,Tokyo,New York. You are living in cloud cuckoo land my friend....property prices in the TRNC will never reflect that sort of price. It also relects what is REALLY going on in the minds of most greedy GC's.........we want our cake with icing on.....and to eat it!

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
03/08/2009 17:03

Dear Waz/Warren



re msg 129



>>My contributions are more commercial. Investment, support and encouragment in and for the new peacefull and prosperous Cyprus.<<



Don't worry, I understood your REAL motivation along time ago ;) ..

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
03/08/2009 17:48

Iain



I've had to repeat the questions due to you avoiding them or indeed ignoring them. By repeating them I have taken heed of your replies none of which answer the questions, hence me having to ask them again.



So where is the proof of a GC "exchanging" land in the north outwith the property commission? Your claims I'm just asking for you to substantiate this claim you made.



Furthermore you question my education whilst insisting that on your development the landowners son in law lives in one of the villas but you have a Kocan. They are not the same thing. Even someone with an inferior education recognises that;-)

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
03/08/2009 19:15

Stuart,I feel the kettle is calling pot "black",when you say I avoid your questions ! Rich indeed from the Scarlet Pimpernel of question answerers! As I have said so many times....I HAVE MY KOCAN. The original TC landowner has sold the land to the builder.He built the villas then the land ownership was transferred to the people who have bought the villas as compartmentalised plots ! The landowners daughter and son-in-law has one.......and so do I,along with 7 other owners......simples !

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
03/08/2009 19:17

m&m's



As you have no property or family connections in Cyprus, can we ask for an opinion closer to home for you.



Belfast.



We now have an agreed Peace Accord, do you think all the walls and barricades should be removed to allow all people to return to former homes and happily integrate from school age & upwards? All Happy-Clappy neighbours again? kids playing together in the Crumlin Rd or Falls Rd areas?



All cheering each others 'Marches'?



Do you see that as a realistic possibility? especially in light of the violence and fire-bombings and shooting at the recent Orange March?



Until you can show that has been achieved in Belfast,...



then I feel your Cyprus opinions carry no credibility whatsoever.





Perhaps you should spend more time trying to heal your 'Home' problems, before taking any stance elsewhere in the world.



Leave that to us who actually have vested interests.





Rob

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
03/08/2009 19:24

Iain



I have answered any questions which you have posed.



So are you going to substantiate your claim that Greek Cypriots have "exchanged" land in the North?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
03/08/2009 19:33

Dear Rob

re msg 136



Have you and AJ met for a beer?!



Nice ( failed) attempt at deflection...



1/ As you have already been informed - my absence from CY is likely to be "temporary" .



2/ You seem to "worry" a lot about my input and my "welfare" - suggesting a "rest".. I rather feel you have another - less altruistic reason ;)



N.Ireland v Cyprus



As you brought sectarian divisions up - what about the villages in CY where the communities mix - there are no peace lines or walls.



I think you need to brush up on the two islands !

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
03/08/2009 19:41

mark



There are some peaceful villages in Ireland.



I was talking about Belfast.



'Double Deflection' doesn't work.



You have avoided the subject.



I'm very unimpressed.

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
03/08/2009 19:47

Clarets....msg 132



"Where do you think my villa is built,Chelsea,Tokyo,New York"



Clarets...if you can get me a donum of building land in any of those places for £60K I'll give you a £5K finders fee.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
03/08/2009 20:26

Clarets

Is £60000 not the going rate for building land in the TRNC? A quick look on some of the many Estate Agents property sites shows that it is about the going rate? You need to get about a bit more if you think that £60000 would buy you land in the places you have identified. Only will you get this sort of price in the TRNC because it is disputed land. Please answer Stub's question.



Has the TC that sold you the property exchanged the land with the GC owner in the South? Do you have proof that this actually happened?



You can't can you? Because everyone but you knows that there has been no exchanges other than those that went through the ECHR or IPC.



Please do not reply with an answer that merely informs us all of your academic achievements and superior knowledge, supported with the usual medical terminology, JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
03/08/2009 20:33

mmmmmmm

And what prey is your motivation?

Perhaps you want to be everyones friend and yet make very few.

Pehaps you feel that Both GC and TC will vote you in to become their offshore leader in a Unified Cyprus.



My view is that your own insecurities are served by your lurid interest and desire to tell people how wrong they are when they comment upon Cypriot issues. You clearly have no real involvment with the Island, you do not live there and seldom visit the Island. Like many of your posts you are rapidly becomming simply historical.



Certainly my own motivations are shared by the majority of forward thinking Cypriots.

Peace and prosperity to all.

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
04/08/2009 00:41

Stuart,you have answered precisley.....none of the issues put to you. I on the other hand have answered yours but you do not appear to be aware of it.There are several ways to look at that.....you are either a poorly educated politican, someone with an IQ close to a palm tree, or someone who claims to be able to read......and actually cannot! The exchange of the land was done without my presence. The original TC landowner sold the builder the land. If you dont understand that...... I cannot make it any simpler!

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
04/08/2009 11:05

Dear Waz/ Warren



>>And what prey is your motivation? Perhaps you want to be everyones friend and yet make very few. <<



If I craved "popularity", I don't think I'd post on here; ).. Motivation - devil's advocate, "wind up merchant" or seeing both sides - you decide !



>>you clearly have no real involvment with the Island<<



You should tell my accountant, that !



>>you do not live there and seldom visit the Island.<<



Not at the mo, while the stepson receives full time education in the UK ;)



>> Like many of your posts you are rapidly becomming simply historical. <<



PERRfect Freudian slip, Warren ;)

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
04/08/2009 13:14

Iain



What issues have you put to me that I have failed to answer?



You claimed on msg 64 that "The land was legally exchanged,and the current owner has sold part of it to the builder ......"



I have asked you on numerous occassions now to provide any evidence of any Greek Cypriot "exchanging" land with the exception of the few cases at the property commission? Still awaiting your answer.....



What is your obsession with my education? May I respectfully remind you of rule 3 of this forum



"We take the "Be Polite" rule very seriously. We do not tolerate any rudeness. Challenge others' points of view and opinions, but do so respectfully and thoughtfully without insult and personal attack"

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
04/08/2009 15:07

Stubs

You seem to have a thing about ex GC land in the North.

We know the Greeks didnt exchange land in the north,the GC's the ROC are perfectly clear on the matter.

Its the TC's that fled the South that you have to convince the land is not theirs and should be handed back, thats not going to happen.Thats why we have the settlement talks so that hopefully the two sides can compromise.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
04/08/2009 15:47

Girne 29



Many people have been mis-sold or indeed mis-informed about "exchange" land. Apart from any transactions done by the property commission there has not been any publicity surrounding a GC who has "exchanged" land in the north.



On several occasions I have asked Iain to verify his claims but he seems more intent on questioning my education and intelligence.





A lot of "exchange" land was given not only to TC's but also to Turks coming over from the mainland.

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
04/08/2009 18:20

Stuart.....I was posing the question as to why you do not take heed of my answers to your questions....as Girne 29 states....you have a thing about exchange land,which we all know exists,but the RoC do not recognise.That however does not mean that it doesnt exist....you still have shown me no proof at all that Umut's father in law is not the recognised previous owner of the land sold to the builder.....please show me PROOF.....simples!

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
04/08/2009 18:42

Iain



you are skirting around the question and you know it.



You claimed that the land was "legally exchanged". I have asked for you to provide evidence of any Greek Cypriot who has exchanged the land they own in the North with the exception of those cases at the property commission. You have not done this because you can not show any cases!



My "thing" for exchange land goes as far as the ill-educated falsely implying or claiming that it was "exchanged" by a Greek Cypriot.

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
04/08/2009 19:09

As I said....show me PROOF......simples.....again!

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
04/08/2009 19:32

Still skirting around it Iain???



If you can't substantiate your claims Iain then you shouldn't make them.



You dont have to be specific about the plot you have built a villa on. Just show proof of any Greek Cypriot who has "legally exchanged" their land in the north with the exception of the property commission cases.



C'mon Iain you claimed that it happened are you not going to step up to the plate????

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
04/08/2009 19:33

Clarets: http://www.dees_r_mee_deeds.com



v



Stubs : http://www.dat_is_still_meeland.com



"Simples"

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
04/08/2009 20:00

LMAO

horny


Joined: 12/05/2008
Posts: 42

Message Posted:
04/08/2009 23:17

THE BACKGROUND



BRITAIN gave Cyprus independence in August 1960, with the exception of 99 square miles that would remain Sovereign territory and would be used as military bases. Britain also retained control of sites on Mount Olympus, Cape Greco, RAF Nicosia and Famagusta harbour. Although the Republic of Cyprus was established under a set of complicated rules and treaties, neither the Greek Cypriots nor the Cypriot Turks were happy about the way it had been created. Both sides had co-existed to a point under British colonial rule, but had maintained their separate religions, languages and cultures. Their political ambitions, too, were poles apart. The new Cyprus Republic's Constitution guaranteed the Cypriot Turkish population co-founder status, a large measure of self-government in their areas, certain key ministries, and the right to veto any decisions involving defence, internal security and foreign affairs with which they might disagree. A separate treaty, the Treaty of Guarante