12 dogs dumped at KAR!!!!

britvic



Joined: 05/09/2008
Posts: 3039

Message Posted:
29/07/2009 14:21

Cyprus Today midweek edition 12 puppies dumped at Kar.



How awful!



Vicki

daisy dukes


Joined: 06/09/2008
Posts: 3815

Message Posted:
29/07/2009 15:55

Rather they were dumped at a 'dogs home' than on the street to die of heat exhaustion, dehydration and/or poison....although maybe they should have just been killed, then they would be nobodies problem....harsh realities that i believe ought to start being faced by the TRNC government...



DD

jacktheladett


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 528

Message Posted:
29/07/2009 16:16

I was in Firdez's this week, and she has got so many notices for dogs wanting homes, whose owners are leaving Cyprus, they have obviously got their own reasons for not taking their beloved pets with them. I know I couldn't do it.



There are only so many homes, and only so many that can/want to really take care of an animal, I think we are at saturation point.



Firdez has also got notices for dogs that were re-homed from KAR then bought back as unsuitable, thats really sad as well. When KAR can't take that poor dog in that's about to give birth (as on other thread) it's unreal, what chance do her and the puppies stand on their own, something has to give.



If there are animals in the centre that have been there for a certain amount of time - and are unsuitable for re-homing - or they are old, then surely there must be a re-think of their euthanasia policy. It's a horrible thing to have to do but SOMETHING radical needs to be done to end the suffering of these poor animals.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
29/07/2009 16:30

I agree Jack we were only discussing this today.That poor mother and her unborn puppies and KAR cant take them as having all those pups dmped on them. Its all so sad all around

daisy dukes


Joined: 06/09/2008
Posts: 3815

Message Posted:
29/07/2009 16:36

I believe we need to start rallying everyone together that is in favour of an island cull...maybe start at KAR...cull the old, the sick, the vicious the unhomable...then and only then will the neutering and fostering programmes start to have some kind of effect...





DD

Tinkie


Joined: 16/03/2009
Posts: 1256

Message Posted:
29/07/2009 18:04

An update on the pregnant retriever...KAR called me today to say that providing there are no emergencies between now and Friday, then she will be collected on Friday morning. I am relieved and very grateful to KAR, but would have felt so much happier if I could have rehomed her. The KAR lady was very nice, but when I asked what would happen to the dog and her puppies she said that they have to assess each situation seperately and that whilst the dog would not be put down, she wasnt sure what would happen to the puupies once they were born as they are so over-run. She said that she hoped they would be able to rehome the dog, but that they may have to neuter and return her if they cant house her. I am not knocking the KAR i know that they are over run and they are doing what they can in this case, I just feel really sad that after all this she may be returned to the apartment area any way and so it all begins again. What is the answer. I just dont know. Any one able to rehome her? x

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
29/07/2009 18:25

Please be to god the puppies are not put down and mum can get a home otherwise the impact on that poor sol is unbearable xxx

jacktheladett


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 528

Message Posted:
29/07/2009 19:15

It doesn't bear thinking about Liz.

Quarmby


Joined: 15/09/2008
Posts: 975

Message Posted:
29/07/2009 19:50

Daisydukes Msg8



when will you and others like you get it into your heads that the vets in the TRNC will not put down healthy animals so KAR are tied by this. How do you and your cohorts going to cull all these stray animals? Blow their brains out as you were suggesting the other week on this forum.

japeal



Joined: 12/09/2008
Posts: 1052

Message Posted:
30/07/2009 00:51

We had a pregnant dog dumped on site, 10 weeks ago, we have just finally rehomed the last puppy with a young girl in the beledeysi office. Now we are trying to ensure a home for the mother, arnie and kate took the dog in and looked after the puppies, and we have between found homes for all puppies after KAR refused to help. they claimed we were in BARK area, not so when they wanted our travel kennels, they could not take them fast enough!

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
30/07/2009 09:38

hi jap,

i saw a kar van down in iskele about two weeks ago?? i wondered what they were doing all the way down there??

japeal



Joined: 12/09/2008
Posts: 1052

Message Posted:
30/07/2009 13:23

firestarter, they may have been helping bark, bark currently has a serious flea infestation with all their puppies so are currently closed. mature dogs can be treated but not the puppies apparently

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
30/07/2009 13:49

RE msg 12, Quarmby: "when will you and others like you get it into your heads that the vets in the TRNC will not put down healthy animals so KAR are tied by this. How do you and your cohorts going to cull all these stray animals? Blow their brains out as you were suggesting the other week on this forum."



=> And what is *your* solution to the problem?

PaulW



Joined: 20/07/2009
Posts: 651

Message Posted:
30/07/2009 13:54

Hans - welcome back!

Quarmby


Joined: 15/09/2008
Posts: 975

Message Posted:
31/07/2009 09:37

Hans



I do not have a solution, my opinion means nothing here as I am a foreigner, I would not be listened to. It appears that the only ones with a problem with stray animals are the expats. The government of this part of the island do not appear to think there is a major problem, if in their eyes there was it is their eventual responsibility and they are in charge, not the foreigners.

Geoff


Joined: 25/06/2008
Posts: 1370

Message Posted:
31/07/2009 16:20

In Bahrain the authorities go round and shhot dead any stray cats or dogs - NO exceptions. Any with owners name/address tags are returned to them, with a fine! Guess what! No problems of stray diseased animals in Bahrain, which is (like Cyprus) a small Island.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
31/07/2009 16:38

geoff,

in a strange sort of way, cruel to be kind.

lesleyd



Joined: 05/06/2007
Posts: 265

Message Posted:
09/08/2009 17:17

What I can't understand for the life of me is that all these people that are sagging Kara off regards their rules and regulations are like the above message says it is mostly from Ex Pats.

I hate to say this but what I have noticed is that these so called people that keep going on about the stray animal situation surely you must have noticed it before you even decided to move to North Cyprus but the British being like they are forget that this is not their country but they think that everyone should act like the good old brits do.

Instead of shooting your mouth off about Kar why don't all you whingers get together and have a go at the government.

I know for a fact that it is very very hot at the moment in Cyprus so would any of you whingers like to go and work at Kar for a few weeks??.

And Deecyprus still waiting for the names of these so called vets that you know that put healthy animals to sleep.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
09/08/2009 17:34

Hiya Quarm its the expats that cause a lot of probs by going back and leaving them. I have a beautiful pointer I feed every night that responds to english with a collar on. He has been left to roam. The stray sit is bad like most places The ex take them in and if it dosent work put them back on the road. This gov do not want to know. Its a nightmare for KAR and for animal lovers alike. We all try to help and Dee has done a lot for the animals where she lives. We know that the Government dept in Leftkosia will put them down. Some times I feel and beleive you me I cry a river about them but the ones that have been at KAR with no chance maybe better off dead. Cruel and it hrts me to say but caged is no life maybe a walk no and then. I know they have a policy but after a certain time maybe thats the answe so more can go there from the streets. sorry to upset anyone but break nmy heart daily x

horselover


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 129

Message Posted:
09/08/2009 18:06

i wonder if all you dog lovers are vegetarians? if you were to see your cow or pig slaughtered before your eyes, or your sunday chicken's neck wrung then handed to you to pluck n cook, would you eat it? i live in england with foxs, squirrels, moles, whatever. they are all life. survival of the fittest. some get killed on the road, some strarve to death, and we dont interfere. yes, some dogs are dumped because of dumb humans, but humans will be human. And animals are animals, not matter what species they are. they should ALL be respected. pit bulls are a huge problem here again.dog fights are rife, pups dumped, kids mauled.its horrid.and they will be destroyed for being pit bulls. i could go on bout folk who cage their dogs in cyprus, never taking them out, i see their miserable faces as i pass by.its sad, never been able to run, or be free, as nature intended. if dogs cant be put down, then let them live free as foxes do. they are pack animals.they either survive, or they dont.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
09/08/2009 18:11

horselover not one word of your idiotic rant makes sense..we do not keep squirels, foxes, moles etc etc as domestic pets..jeez I would have thought that obvious.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
09/08/2009 18:14

Horselover you could be so right. In UK we make them domestic pets as I did with my beloved staffi I brought here. I then took three more unwanted starys in and turned them into a pack. This has caused me a lot of stress. We are working throught it at the moment but I could not put any of them back to survive on the streets. I can not be introduced to my food . I meet fresh lobster every week and cant eat it but I do remember my Mum plucking chicken for our dinner and did not question it. It was the way then xxHowever I understand totall\y what you say xxxxxx

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
09/08/2009 18:25

leslyd, We know that the Government dept in Leftkosia will put them down,thats the vets that will, like you didnt no.

Vidal


Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 867

Message Posted:
09/08/2009 18:29

Well said Lilli.



The majority of these dogs are not born into the life of a UK pet dog. They are feral and if we didnt interfere they would stay that way and as Horselover says, either survive or not.

Dogs are intelligent creatures and will come to humans for an easy meal, by giving them food WE humans are making their life harder, and just making a rod for our own backs.



If the mountain goats suddenly twig that us humans are a soft touch and will feed them and take them in, give them tinned food and a nice soft bed by the settee...we are in big trouble.

lesleyd



Joined: 05/06/2007
Posts: 265

Message Posted:
09/08/2009 20:10

Well up until now no one has named anyone that will put healthy animals to sleep so maybe you would be kind enough to inform someone at Kar.

But I also know that Kar do have a vet and also had vets helping out up there while over in Cyprus.

On our last visit to kar we saw a beautiful dog that some people who were going back to the UK left up in the mountains to cope on his own.

Well he couldn't and nearly starved to death one of the people from Kar that go's up into the mountains looking for the dogs that are left after the hunt is over found the said dog and he is now at kar getting 2 square meals and goes for walks.

Now I really don't care what you think of me at all but I can promise you I am no lier I have photo's of this dog and lots of others that the good old Brits have abandoned because they have to go back home so why in hell don't they go and have the animal put to sleep instead of leaving it to defend for its self why the hell should Kar be responsible for these dogs.

lesleyd



Joined: 05/06/2007
Posts: 265

Message Posted:
09/08/2009 20:13

And I have never said that Deecypruss doesn't help animals but come on how many can she take in?? you have already seen a posting from puppylover and the comments that she has made are you also calling her a lier??

They have lots and lots of Dogs & Cats and like I have said b4 there is only so much room at the Inn.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
09/08/2009 21:08

lesleyb. I know most do help with thier hearts but if circumstances change its different. I couldnt leave any one of mime. I took them on and Im responsible. I have to say though when I found the puppy with his stomach torn apart and we had no money as we had just lost the brasserie. He told me I will treat this dog as long as you do not take it to KAR. I promosied I wouldnt and we brought him back to life 3 times. He is with me and beautiful. They helped me by my constant phone calls. I agree they are worked so haRD to find homes for them all. Volunteers run the place and thank god they can. I was actally turned away when I took a male sray there and sat and cried for hours. I beleive puppylover and I have now an insight. Its an awfl siuation all round. Perhaps they should bring a law in to stop us taking them. Then they would lose revenue for the registraton and worming tablets. We always end up paying xxxxx

lesleyd



Joined: 05/06/2007
Posts: 265

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 02:37

Lilli I really don't know what the answer is for these poor animals both on the streets and also up at Kar there are so many rules and regulations that Kar have to abide by.

As for all the money that they are supposed to be getting all you have to do is go and look at all the animals up there they do get vet care and they do get fed twice per day puppy's four times a day they have vets bills to pay and lots of other things like building more shelters for more dogs and cats.

And I also know that when people have gone up there sometimes they are so short staffed they just don't have the time to stop for a chit chat they are not being ignorant they are just trying to make sure that everyone of those animals get fed or wormed bathed and what ever else they need.

Each of those dogs at Kar maybe in a pen but they do get to go out for walks and also each one does get some kind of love from the staff every day as they also have feelings and have cried at some of the states that some of the

lesleyd



Joined: 05/06/2007
Posts: 265

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 02:43

animals that they have taken in. But as well as Kar rescue there is also Bark who also do a wonderful job so instead of keep knocking these animals charities please do go and look at the work that they do then make your own minds up it maybe a hard thing to do but at least you will see it first hand just what they have to cope with every single day of the year. I am not slagging anyone off but I still say that if you have never been up there then please do not listed to ideal gossipers get the facts first hand.

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 07:44

lesleyd ive been to kar ive seen it,even more reason for there to be a cull,you say how much is spent on vet bills why not get a in house vet.



Re: Average Vet Wage

If you search for vet job vacancies, most of the ads will tell you that salary is based on experience. However, the 2008 average wage seems to be £23,864

http://www.mysalary.co.uk/average-salary/Vet_3248

as i said i dont knock kar for what they do,i blame the managment for what they dont do.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 07:53

The issues re the putting down of healthy animals by vtes in the TRNC fall into two categories. Ethical and pratical.

On the Ethical side of things many private vets in the TRNC have concerns with the idea of systematic and large scale killing of healthy animals. They entered the profession to treat and help animals not to participate in wholsale slaughter of them.

On the practical side of things, there is currently to the best of my knowledge no legal way in the TRNC of importing the drug used in most western countries for the humane killing of animals with the least pain and suffering to them. The government vets historicaly and still to this day use a method of injecting air bubles into animals viens leading to a painful and relatively slow death for the animal.

Any policy involving the systematic and continuing killing of healthy animals as a means to control feral animal numbers in the TRNC is the responsibility of the state and not KAR or vets.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 07:59

catalkoykid you expectations re KAR are totaly unrealistic. You want and advocate that an animal welfare charity take on the taks of the systematic and ongoing destruction of large numbers of animals and suggest that such an organisation with such a policy could raise all necessary funds for this from donations from the public.

To me you appear to live in a cloud cuckoo land with no concern for actual realites, just a desire to attack and blame the wrong people for the number of feral animals in the TRNC.

If you really want to have your say on this issue I suggest with respect you aim your attacks at a target that has both the responbility and the pratical ability to take the actions you want to be taken - namely the authorites here and not just keep attacking soft targets like KAR than have no such responsibility nor ability to do what you want anyway.

If KAR were to do as you wanted in a few years it would ceased to exist anf then there would still be no control

[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 08:00

of feral animals not would there be any netuering and returning of animals not any of the other work done by KAR currently like rehoming. This is ALL your current 'ideas' would achieve as far as I can see.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 08:13

Another think you could do catalkoykid is take the time trouble and effort to set up your own non profit ornaisation, with all the work and effort that that requires, with the stated specific goal of providing a free service to destroy any animal taken to it for such or of feral animals captured by its volunateers and see how far you get funding such a project from public donations and using volunateer workers. I think it is clear that even if you were to invest such personal time and effort to address this problem such would be a total waste of time and doomed to failure - yet this is what your constantly attack KAR for not doing.

jupiter


Joined: 02/08/2009
Posts: 16

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 08:56

KAR does its best for animals in N Cyprus on very limited funds that it receives thru donations. Its kennels are full and it is unable take in all strays that need help. Most of the work is done by volunteers. A campaign to encourage all animal owners, locals and expats, to have their cats and dogs desexed will help to reduce the number of stray animals. This won't solve the problem entirely but it would be a good start.

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 09:11

get it right they 1, they can and have got the drugs needed to humanely euthanize.



2,animals that cant be rehomed or not suitable for rehoming are humanely euthanized in the uk.





3,You want and advocate that an animal welfare charity take on the taks of the systematic and ongoing destruction of large numbers of animals and suggest that such an organisation with such a policy could raise all necessary funds for this from donations from the public. THE RSPCA DO.





4, the reason i say kar, to set up another charity to do the work and get donations and land already given by the trnc goverment would take so long, im not saying what they are doing is not good, im saying the it is not solving the problem, so pull you neck back in and read.

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 09:20

and also everyone is harping on about how upsetting it is to go to KAR,maybe you should see your dog when its been poisoned fitting in agonybecause i have, because farmers have put poison down because these dogs that are being released are attacking there goats and lambs, they are doing no different from a farmer in wales with lambs.

puppylover



Joined: 05/05/2008
Posts: 1427

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 09:30

erolz



I'm afraid that some people do not want to hear the other side of the story.

There are certain members who are quick to blame but not willing to actively get involved to try and find ways to attempt to make changes to what they do not agree with.



catalkoykid....msg 36



This is NOT the UK.

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 09:36

i am quite prepared to hear the other side,im not saying what they are doing is not good, but you must evolve,putting them back in the villages to be ran over poisoned or kicked is not the answer is it ???

frontalman



Joined: 28/02/2008
Posts: 499

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 09:50

I don't find it upsetting going to KAR, but then again I have visited on many occasions. It's sad to see so many dogs in one place, but they are cared for as well as possible. I too have had to watch a dog die of poisoning in front of me. I can't accept indiscriminate poisoning, nor can I condone it, especially when the poison is thrown into the gardens of responsible dog owners. I have heard of an occasion, told to me by a TC, when a local farmer took exception to a small dog barking at him from behind a fence, then proceeded to throw poison over the fence and killed the dog in 'revenge'. I don't know the parties involved, but if I caught one of these poisoners in the act, I'd probably end up doing time and being deported.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 09:51

catalkoykid said



"get it right they 1, they can and have got the drugs needed to humanely euthanize."



I did not say they (any vets in TRNC) do not have the necessary drug - I pointed out there is no legal means for importing this drug into the TRNC. It is true that there are vets that manage to obtain the drug in small amounts and at some person risk to themselves in order to be able to humanely destroy animals in suffering or pain. However this does not mean that the necessary drug could easily be used by them or others for what you propose - namely the ongoing large scale systematic destruction of healthy animals. For that to be done in as humane way as possible it would require a change in the current laws. A reality you choose to dismiss out of hand in your crusade. Without such a change in the law what you propose would mean using much less humane means to destroy animals than this method.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 09:58

catalkoykid



It is true that the RSPCA do regulalry destroy healthy animals however, though the scale of the problems in the UK proportionate to population size of people and pets is much smaller there. However it is just ridiculous to use this reality as 'proof' that KAR could implement the kind of policy you want it too without endangering its very existance. To compare the RSPCA and what they are able to do in the UK with KAR and what they are able to do in the TRNC makes about as much sense as comparing Manchester United with the local Girne football club.



You say that KAR could do this easily as an established entity here but the reality is that such action that you want by them would put at risk their very survival and along with it all the good work you accept they do do.



Puting animals back in villages neutered and treated by a vet as necessary is better than not doing so.



[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 10:04

Neuter and return schemes run throughout the world and are accepted and recognised as having real value in terms of animal welfare. Once again I suspect YOUR concern is not animal welfare but actually your own 'welfare' - namely you dont want feral animals around you. Once again I can only highlight that KAR is not concern is not helping people who do not want strays around them but actualy animal welfare. They do what they can within the limits of what is praticaly possible in this regard. Clearly you want them to evolve from being concerned with animal welfare into being concerned for people like you who do not want feral animals around them but once again the reality of what would happen if you got your wish is that KAR would cease to exist and then you would still have feral animals around you and all the positive work they do manage to do re animal welfare would also stop. That is no solution to anything.

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 10:12

the RSPCA destroys thousands of healthy animals each year, see the figures below:





HUMANE DESTRUCTION OF ANIMALS - 2008 BY THE RSPCA



Dogs: 10,123



Cats: 18,961



Misc: 59,854



Total: 88,938

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 10:28

catalkoykid you proove my point for me re the difference between the RSPCA and KAR



Lets ignore the fact that the RSPCA is an orgnaisation that has existed for over a hundred years, with a royal charter. The figure show that for every animal destroyed by the RSPCA ther is approx 650 people. If you transpose that onto KAR and TRNC it would make a total destroyed animals per year by KAR around 250. Destroying 250 animals a year in the TRNC would make no material impact on the actual levels of feral animals in the TRNC. THose destroyed would quickly become replaced by more young animals surviing in the wild and total number of ferals would stay the same. For KAR to have a real impact on actual numbers of feral animals it would probal meed to put down 10 times or more than number per year. The RSPCA survives as an organistaion because the reality and perception is that the destruction of healthy animals by it in the UK is a tiny part of what it does.



[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 10:34

For KAR to have any real impact this reality and perception would be totaly different. It would be seen (and the reality would be) that KAR's main work and function would be the ongoing destruction of healthy animals. It this was its main function and percieved to be it simply would not exist.



Your comparision between what the RSPCA does and can do in the UK bears no relation to what KAR can and could do in the TRNC ans still remain viable as an organisation. The orgnaisations are totaly different in too many ways to list. The scale of the specifgic issue you are concerned with is totaly different in the UK and the TRNC. Laws and public attitudes are totaly different in the UK and the TRNC. Harping on about the RSPCA in the UK in no way makes what you proposed for KAR in the TRNC a viable suggestion. It simply is not as far as I can see.

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 11:02

100 animals would make alot of difference,and release kar from the weight around there neck,and they can carry on doing there spaying and neutering, sounds like you are agreeing with me, kar are frightened to stop the prob incase they go out of bussiness

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 11:06

if 250 animals was destroyed,kar would have none so insread of turning dogs away or putting them back on the street they would have plenty of room.

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 11:11

Figures from the Tasmanian branch of the RSPCA show that 1,000 more cats than dogs have been put down in the past year.



The organisation believes the community needs more education on animal welfare.



For the first time in organisation's history, the RSPCA has taken in more than 5,000 animals in the last year.



Of the 2,000 dogs that were taken to shelters, about 700 were reclaimed and 800 found new homes.



Only 300 were euthanised.



But for cats, of about 2,800 that were taken to shelters, only eight were reclaimed by their owners.



About 900 cats were given new homes but 1,300 were put down.



The Organisation says that's a staggering and very disturbing figure.



The RSPCA says most of the deaths can be attributed to people not having their animals de-sexed, as well as people's perception that dogs are more a part of the family than cats.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 11:17

catalkoykid when you make the comments that KAR do not want a solution because it will put them out of business you show how uniformed you are and also a distinct lack of any respect as well.



If KAR were to destroy all the animals currently at the rescue center, within less than 12 months it would be full again. Futher the 250 animals they took off the streets would simply be replaced by a new set of 250 animals. Nothing material would be achieved in terms of total number of feral animals in the TRNC, yet real damage would be done to the degree of support that KAR currently gets as an animals welfare charity from those who do not think such an organisation should be killing healthy animals. No upside at all and only down side is what you are proposing. It makes no sense.

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 11:45

CK

Your claim about KAR not wanting to destroy animals because they would go out of business is ridiculous - The clue is in the name - Kyrennia Animal Rescue not Kyrenia Animal Destruction. It is a CHARITY run by and funded by animal lovers - if the aim was to bring in dogs from the street and then euthenise them then I would suggest that KAR would neither have volunteers or receive funding from the public. However, even if, as you suggest 100 dogs were culled in order to 'release kar from the weight around there neck', how long do you think it would be before another 100 dogs were dumped at KAR ?? I would estimate at best probably a matter of a few weeks. The problem of stray/feral animals is impossible to eradicate but a huge difference would be made if owners were responsible and had their animals neutered - unfortunately the main culprits for this are the locals. I think you are targetting the wrong organisation - go and complain to the government.

Paul

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 11:50

your comment not mine





You say that KAR could do this easily as an established entity here but the reality is that such action that you want by them would put at risk their very survival and along with it all the good work you accept they do do.





how many feral animals in the kar area in your estimation please ????



there has never been a mass cull, so your reasoning doesn't work



its a proven fact that most money raised buy advertising is in the hour after the add,dogs, starving people, as for leaving starving dogs around the villages for all to see great way of raising money, they think take starving ill treated animals away money stops

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 11:54

RSPCA stands for Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals but they cull,and get donations

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 11:58

I do not know how many feral animals there are in the are covered by KAR, however I am confident that reducing that number by 250 or so would bring only the shortest of terms of difference and within 6-12 months they would have been replaced by new animals.



What you have to understand is that what currently limits the density of feral animals in a given area is how many such animals an are is able to support in terms of food and territory. If you remove a number of animals from a given area that can support x such feral animlas in a very short space of time the number will increase back to x. Even if you remove 90+ % you can never remove 100% or stop new animals becomming feral and then refilling the area back to the same x figure.



There have been mass culls of feral animlas in the North and Cyprus in general and it provide no more than a very short term solution.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 12:02

catalyoykid you repeat the same old mantras without ever dealing with the flaws that have already been pointed out to you.



Your argument that the RSPCA destroys animals and gets donations holds no more water than the argument that Manchester Uinted makes money from the sales of merchandise and TV rights so that it can buy world class players and thus Girne united could do the same. It is nonsense for all the reasons I have already pointed out to you, yet you continue to ignore.



If you REALLY think that such an orgnaisation with such a policy could be set up in the TRNC and funded from donations and volunateers and that it would make a real difference then go and do it. We both know of course that it could not and you will not. Blaming KAR is much easier, though no more effective in producing any results.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 12:08

As for your assertion that KAR do not want to remove animals because if they did people would no longer donate to them and this is what motivates their decisions on policy once again shows how fundamentaly lacking your actual understanding is of KAR as an orgnaisation and those that set it up and run. It is also disrepectful and grossly insulting to those people as as simply not true.



Removing animals and killing them would make no difference. Within 6 months new animals would have repalced those removed and killed.

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 12:11

CK

I am neither for or against a cull, however I believe that if animals are to be culled then it is a governmental responsibility and NOT the responsibility of a charity whose volunteers are there to help animals, not kill them. I do voluntary work at KAR and can say for certain that if the animals at KAR were routinely culled then the volunteers would not come forward.

I also believe that any cull would be fairly ineffective as the root of the problem lies with the education of dog owners who will not have them neutered. I am sure that like me, you will have seen dogs owned by locals who have clearly been left to procreate and have litter after litter of puppies. The puppies are then let out onto the streets and the problem multiplies exponentially - this is ultimately where the solution lies.

Maybe you can apply to the government for a licence and go out and top a few dogs yourself ???

Paul

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 12:26

In fact CK, as you are so keen on a cull, maybe you could team up with the other cull supporters on this forum - DeeCyprus, Daisy Dukes to name a couple and you can all go out and do the job yourselves rather than try to foist the responsibility onto KAR. ??

Just a thought ............

Paul

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 12:54

but you 2 dont make any sense, you say if you cull 250 the same number would be back in 6 months,then if you dont cull there will be 500 simple maths

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 12:59

so what you are saying, all the people that donate dont want culling, or they would not give support are you quite sure of that,so its all those wants these dogs starving not kar, i see lol a bit of Reverse psychology eh lol

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 13:07

never had the need to top a few dogs as you put it,but topped a few herds of cattle and sheep when i done work for defra, mad cow,cjd,not a nice job but had to be done.

Analyst_CY


Joined: 10/08/2009
Posts: 11

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 13:18

The Bahrain option makes sense. Shoot all strays and take the identified bodies to the owners and fine them. Even better introduce compulsory dog licences and chipping. Education won't work for the local population until they are firmly within the EU complying to EU norms, not Middle Eastern ones.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 13:20

catalkoykid are you really unable to understand the simple reality ? you say



"but you 2 dont make any sense, you say if you cull 250 the same number would be back in 6 months,then if you dont cull there will be 500 simple maths "



once more you so clearly show you fundamental lack of understanding of this issue so it is hardly surpsing you come up with totaly unrealistic 'solutions'.



The amount of feral animals a given area can support is set by the environment - principaly the food available in that area. If an area can support say 250 feral dogs then excess numbers above this either find a new area that can support them or die of starvation. Killing those 250 existing feral dogs means the area will fill back up to that number again, as excess animals from other areas that are saturated move into it. Not killing therm does not mean all of a sudden the area can support twice the number of feral animals - that is sheer nonsense.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 13:31

Analyst CY both Greece and the South of Cyprus are in the EU and the issues and problems and scale of them in those places are almost identical to those found in the North in many areas. Nor is it just these two EU member states that have similar problems.



Certainly one way of dealing with feral animal populations is to shoot all strays - but the point is this is not somthing that KAR would or should be doing and if it was it would no longer survive as an orgnisation.



catalkoykid I am not saying that none of the current doners to KAR would donate (time or money) to KAR if its main work involved the ongoing systematic destruction of large numbers of healthy animals. However it is nonsense to imagine that such a fundamnetal change in what it does would not have a significant if not fatal affect on such support. The amount of work KAR can do for animal WELFARE is defined by the donations it recieves. At best it would reduce the work they can do and worst end it totaly.

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 13:39

CK

No, I am not claiming that everyone who donates would be against culling but I think it would be reasonable to expect a signicant impact on donations. However, I can say with some certainty that if KAR were to advocate the culling of healthy animals then they would lose their volunteers.

I am neither for or against culling, I just don't believe that KAR should be responsible for it. If it needs to be done then it is the governments responsibility.

As you are such a strong advocate of culling (and have some experience), then with the greatest respect, why don't you take Erolzs' advice and open your own centre, track down a vet who would be willing to euthenize healthy animals, source the drugs to do it, and then spend hours trying to raise the money to fund it all.

It is very easy to criticise people for not doing something but it is so much harder to try and do it yourself.

Regards

Paul

lesleyd



Joined: 05/06/2007
Posts: 265

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 13:45

See what I mean when I say about some expats they live in a dream world they keep harping on about the RSPCA in the UK do this and do that HELLO YOU ARE NOT LIVING IN THE UK NOW.

But like it has been suggested maybe all these people that are going on about Kar should do this or Kar should do that whay don't you all start your very own animals charity start taking in as many animals as Kar then lets all sit back and see what sort of a job that you lot could do.

Someone has already started a fostering scheme up where I did read somewhere in the post that you take on a dog or dogs bit if after say 6 or 12 this dog is not re homed then it gets the bullet. Well I know for a damn fact that if I had rehomed any animal for 6 or 12 months there would be no way on gods earth that I could look at that animal and put a bullet in its head. But who am I just a pathetic animal lover that earns money from animals..... B** S***

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 14:11

Erolz, this is not an accusation but are you connected to KAR in any way, shape or form?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 14:52

I do not know why me having a connection to KAR or not would relate to the validity or not of my arguments.



In any case I have no direct personal connection to KAR other than to have helped them out now and again with computer issues. My partner is very involved with KAR as a voluanteer.



However none of that changes my arguments which are, destruction would only make a difference if carried out on an ongoing systematic basis involving killing large numbers of animals year in and year out. This is not something KAR could do without loosing a significant amount of its current suuport possibly to the point of its own destruction. Making out that KAR could and should do this and if they did it would solve the problem and not affect their ability to continue as a animal welfare charity supported soley by donners unrealistic in the extreme.



[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 14:58

Stating that the only reason KAR do not peruse your desired approach is because they WANT feral animals on the streets in order to encourage continued donations and keep them in a job is insulting rude and defmatory and simply not true.



I would believe all of the above even if my partner had no connection to KAR. I really do fail to see what relevance your question has to be honest. For me you would do better addressing the issues I am highligthing and ypu seem to largely ignore rather than making equires about me as an indivdual.

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 15:53

You have been watching to many wild animal programmes







The amount of feral animals a given area can support is set by the environment - principaly the food available in that area. If an area can support say 250 feral dogs then excess numbers above this either find a new area that can support them or die of starvation. Killing those 250 existing feral dogs means the area will fill back up to that number again, as excess animals from other areas that are saturated move into it. Not killing therm does not mean all of a sudden the area can support twice the number of feral animals - that is sheer nonsense.



there are a few in each village not hundreds just enough look sad and get poisoned a cull would sort it

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 15:59

empty kar, carry on the work of spaying and neut, then take all the strays in, then they will have room,and they wont have to through them out on the streets to get poisoned,

lesleyd



Joined: 05/06/2007
Posts: 265

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 16:16

erolz

Everything that you are saying is very true but some people even when its hitting them in the face won't admit when they are in the wrong.

When you weigh the situation up on the amount of people on here that are so biest against Kar and the amount of people that think Kar are doing a good job well there really isn't any comparison Kar come out tops ever time.

So I say lets leave these small minded people to sit every day and pull other people to pieces I really think this is how their kicks out of life so sad really.

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 16:23

when you kar supporters, see dogs poisoned or run, over hope you are pleased with yourselves,remember the 6 pups in arapkoy kar couldnt pick up soon did when a £1000.00.stg was paid last year lol

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 16:29

Catalkoykid - culls do not sort the problem. There have been culls in the past and the problem remains.



http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/02/magazine/02cats-v--birds-t.html?pagewanted=4&_r=1&ei=5087&em&en=4328122ab745ee4d&ex=1196830800



"Until the early 1980s, municipalities contained feral cats the old-fashioned way: they shot them. Or they trapped and killed them. “It was considered pest control,” says Roger Tabor, the British biologist. Tabor helped change that in the 1970s with his research on feral cats in London. He found that ferals weren’t loners. They lived in highly social colonies, and killing them didn’t work. If you removed some cats, others simply took their place. Tabor called it the vacuum effect. "



There is much evidence that neuter and return does work.



http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.2003.222.42?cookieSet=1&journalCode=javma

puppylover



Joined: 05/05/2008
Posts: 1427

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 16:31

lesleyd



Agree with what you say in msg 73.



Would love to see the anti KAR brigade run KAR for at least 6 months and then come back and report on how easy it is.

I'm sure all the staff/helpers would love the break....not only for the thankless task they do day in day out.....but they would also get a break from the saqme members of this board who seem to get their kicks out of continually slating them.

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 16:58

CK

Your last post hardly merits an answer as it is ridiculous to suggest that a KAR supporter would be pleased with themselves if a dog got run over or poisoned. I know that people don't agree with the neuter, tag and return policy but it has proven to work in other countries. Any dogs that KAR return to the streets they do so as a last resort but the dog is clearly tagged and should it be discovered ill, malnourished or in any other form of distress then KAR are duty bound to pick up the animal and get it treatment. I drive around the island a lot and always keep my eye out for tagged dogs and can honestly say that I have never come across one that has not been doing well.

I fear that no matter what is said, you are not going to change your views on KAR and its policies. Lets agree to disagree as i think that I have spent enough time here. Time to go and take my rescue dog for a walk.

Paul

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
10/08/2009 17:37

This thread is now closed. Reason: Thread was addressed and no need for further posts.