What can you do if your Advocate has not done what he should have done

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
01/09/2009 15:37

It appears that my Advocate has not registered my contract with the Land Registry even though I paid him for it and got a receipt which states that and I gave him Power of Attorney to do it.

Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
01/09/2009 15:39

Join the queue . I have yet to hear of an advocate doing anything towards total satisfaction for any buyer in the TRNC .

flightholiday


Joined: 19/07/2007
Posts: 3217

Message Posted:
01/09/2009 15:39

Talk to Ismet (Elko2) on this board

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
01/09/2009 16:55

Pikey...another unnecessary cheap shot.



I've always found Ismet (Elko) to be truthful and impartial in his opinions.



He may not sing to your tune,but that doesn't make him wrong .

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
01/09/2009 17:19

Katymackem;

If you live west or near Kyrenia way, mail me and I'll take you to land registery office.Make sure you have your contract.You dont need an advocate to do those things.

Regards

Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
01/09/2009 17:23

Elco has been more help to me then anyone in the TRNC , He does have a go at Advocates if they have not performed well , he always speaks the truth , would not know what do do without him regarding advice re TRNC !!!!!

gates


Joined: 08/12/2008
Posts: 1096

Message Posted:
01/09/2009 17:29

sit back and say i am not going to do that again or join the quew with the rest of the mugs and go try and sue him . there is no way you will get any were here as they hove no governing body and also a chistian can never beat a musalim this is in there law and in saudi arabia if you did you would be chuck straight out of the country so why bother if they welch on the deal thats it

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
01/09/2009 17:31

gayes,

I am taking your comments rather racist!Please correct me if I am wrong.

kibrissibel


Joined: 18/02/2008
Posts: 562

Message Posted:
01/09/2009 19:15

This isn't about Christian and Muslim, it's about what's right and wrong. Sadly, many advocates have not done the job or given the correct advice to buyers that they have been paid for. Unfortunately, if yours is an older contract, the amnesty to register it at land registry expired last year. It is only new contracts that can be registered so you will not have the protection this brings you to stop landowners taking mortgages on the land etc. Hopefully the new government will re-introduce the amnesty, but no word on it as yet. You can complain to BARO the bar assoc, but unfortunately I am not aware of any complaints being acted upon. With BARO making comments that it is the buyers fault and that lawyers in TRNC have no duty of care, it is a sad fact that little will be done about any redress.

TimothyCadman


Joined: 13/12/2007
Posts: 1040

Message Posted:
01/09/2009 19:39

Yorgzlu,

Gates is being racisit, but remember the Christians are a minority in the Muslim country of the TRNC, just as the Muslims are a minority in any Chrisitian country. Racisim is a 2 way street and Gates analagy of Saudi Arabia is quite accurate. Minorities in Saudi Arabia do not upset the majority otherwise they are severally dealt with and that includes the State killing people for what we Christians may class a minor crime, or not even a crime. Being Gay in Saudi Arabia can, and has done, lead to death by beheading.

The day that all men, and women, are treated equal in the eyes of the law is the day that peace will reign over this world. But as so many people only care for themselves then this world will always remain divided as one man attempts to get the better of another.

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
01/09/2009 19:58

Why have a 'Bar Council' which is supposed to be impartial and oversee malpractice in it's own profession when they themselves run their own private law practices? Easy answer, they are as corrupt as the rest of their colleagues in practising legalised theft.



Richard

Aga Buyers A G


Joined: 04/10/2007
Posts: 488

Message Posted:
01/09/2009 20:11

Out of how many of those who have won against the criminal (Loads) and got a judgement (few) have had the judgement enforced by a TC Lawyer/Advocate and received their dues - we think NOT ONE !!!!!!



Therefore In OPur Opinion no property/land should be sold in the TRNC until it is proved beyond ALL reasonable doubt that those perpertrating the crimes are brought to book and forced to pay the victims - cos at the moment they they are not paying and all they are doing is laughing at this non-existent mickey mouse legal system



ABAG

xxxxxx

Aga Buyers A G


Joined: 04/10/2007
Posts: 488

Message Posted:
01/09/2009 20:12

Ditto Richard !

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
01/09/2009 20:15

Msg 1: Aren't you lucky that you didn't have to pay him £5000 just to sign his name!

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
01/09/2009 21:31

Have I missed something here? I could not find any comment from Pikey about me so I presume that it was removed before I could see it. No problem, I could take it



As Sibel already pointed out, the registration of old contracts expired long ago, so its not possible to register them any longer. New contracts must be registered within 21 days, unfortunately too short a time. This timeframe of 21 days was copied from the old Specific Performance Law and applied to the new law with their eyes closed.



Anyway, coming to the original post, you can sue the advocate for negligence if you can really prove it. You may have given him a POA but that does not in itself prove anything.



It was the old head of Baro who had said that the advocates do not owe a duty of care etc, the new head thinks differently and he has been trying to deal with a backlog of complaints. I suggest that you do put your complaints in wrting and submit them to the Baro.



The main trouble is that when people are in

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
01/09/2009 21:33

The main trouble is that when people are in trouble with their purchases, they blame anyone and everyone and the easiest target is the advocate. Quite often the advocate is blamed if the vendor mortgaged his land after the sale when in fact the advocate could do nothing about it. In the old days the buyers could not register their sale agreements with the Tapu. Of course they could have warn the buyers of risks and ask for some sort of security but in the days of the "Sellers Market" this was just not on. It is always easier to be wiser after the event. The trouble is even now some buyers make the same mistakes like going to an advocate recommended by the Estate Agent. The advocate has to charge more in order to pay some to the Estate Agent. The other trouble is that such an advocate is protecting the interests of the Estate Agent foremost because he is supplying him with new businesses. Sorry but these are the truths.

ismet

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
01/09/2009 21:52

Sorry Ismet, on this one you're out of touch with reality. You cannot support upfront, open legalised theft by members of the judiciary who brag about their corrupt practices without a hint of remorse or questioning their conscience knowing that there's no recourse to themselves.



Richard

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
01/09/2009 23:16

Richard,

There were two fatal faults in the system:

1. The requirement for PTP for a specific piece of property and taking so long to get an answer. Instead people should get personal clearences (if needed) and the land open to purchases by foreigners should be declared openly. Hence any uncertainty removed.



2. The registration of sale agreements with Tapu was brought in too late for most.



In both cases blame the politicians and the parliament and of course crook vendors and the police for not doing anything to frauds but not fair to blame advocates for these.



I can accuse advocates for many other things and I often do that but to make a general accusation and turn them into a scapegoat is something else.

ismet

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
02/09/2009 00:10

Ismet



1) Legislative



2) Executive



3) Judiciary



I'm sure you do not need a lecture on the workings and responsibilities of these three separate divisions within a functional working constitutional society!



Richard

jay76


Joined: 17/07/2008
Posts: 532

Message Posted:
02/09/2009 00:24

I been emailing naomi mehmet's office for two weeks now about an issue also called them about them not replying but all i get is someone will get back to you but still nothing what so ever,

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
02/09/2009 00:32

SURPRISE SURPRISE!!



Richard

Geejay


Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 475

Message Posted:
02/09/2009 14:45

Elko2.....re message 19...."fatal flaws"

Number 3 is surely that advocates have no "duty of care".

Number 4, Advocates say "you can rely on the penalty clause".

number 5 and then "TRNC law is based on UK law".



Advocates are part of the problem.

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
02/09/2009 14:48

Geejay



No, Advocates ARE the problem!



Richard

breezyboy


Joined: 14/05/2007
Posts: 1179

Message Posted:
02/09/2009 19:08

I usually get replies from Naomi in a few hours or next day if I send late afternoon.Never any probs with communicating. Many law offices are closed or on skeleton staff during August.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
02/09/2009 22:37

"Many law offices are closed or on skeleton staff during August. "



It's a hard life for them. Would it be too much for them to perhaps inform their clients?

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
03/09/2009 01:01

I thought they had the whole year off given the amount of work they do!



Richard

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
03/09/2009 01:37

msg.24

Jeejay wrote:

"Elko2.....re message 19...."fatal flaws"

Number 3 is surely that advocates have no "duty of care".

Number 4, Advocates say "you can rely on the penalty clause".

number 5 and then "TRNC law is based on UK law".

Advocates are part of the problem. "



No. 3 is not true. The previous head of Baro probably said something similar to that but in what context? The current head is more sensitive on this issue. You can lodge a complaint against an advocate and even sue them in court but your complaint must be of substance and not unfounded like "He did not inform me about a mortgage". If you go to an advocate to draw up a sale contract he does so and that is the end. It is wrong to assume that an advocate is a conveyancing solicitor. Different country can lead to different perceptions. When I went to England I went to my grocer and asked for shoe polish. I remember her astonishment. In Cyprus we always bought them from grocers, we never had Woolworths in Cyprus!

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
03/09/2009 01:39

ctd.

4. True but as long as you have the Specific Performance law it puts on a different colour.

5. Basically true, similar laws but different mentality. A wittness can tell loads of lies in court and nothing happens to him but we have perjury laws exactly the same as in UK.

ismet

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
03/09/2009 10:59

elko2/Msgs 27-28:



If, on drawing up a 'Deed of Assignment', an advocate incorrectly worded the document, despite being told by his client that the wording was incorrect, but the advocate kept insisting that only his wording complied with TRNC law and, subsequently, the Assignee lost, say, his inheritance, or part of, because another claimant's advocate found this wording to be incorrect, why can that advocate not be challenged in a court of law in TRNC?



Do advocates in TRNC deem such action as 'unethical', therefore unacceptable practice?



If so, a substantial pecuniary loss to the client is, therefore, inconsequential to his advocate.



This surely equates to 'No Duty Of Care' - does it not?

gates


Joined: 08/12/2008
Posts: 1096

Message Posted:
03/09/2009 11:32

i lived in sadi for 2 years beleave me noy rasist it used to happen daily so is that rasist

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
03/09/2009 11:44

re msg30

gates;

Got your point bud.

Geejay


Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 475

Message Posted:
03/09/2009 11:50

elco2.....,message 27.....If advocates can't agree that advocates generally do or do not "have a duty of care" then what chance do we the public have.

If chairmen past and present of Bar Associations can't agree on a matter of law then surely this is part of the legal problems we experience on property issues.

breezyboy


Joined: 14/05/2007
Posts: 1179

Message Posted:
03/09/2009 15:45

Hector

It's nowhere near as long as our MPs get!



I think it is because the courts are closed.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
03/09/2009 18:54

"Duty of CAre" ,s very subjective and at the end of the day if a matter goes to court the judge will decide. As I often point out here, the laws are mostly universal but the mentality of the people who apply them differ enormously. Law is not a positice science like physics, its more like medicine, what is correct today may be wrong tomorrow.



In UK too there are lots of lawyers charging enormously different fees, why? Because some do their jobs better than others. You cannot accuse a lawyer for losing a case even though he thought that he could win it. At the end of the day, he may still believe to be right and the judge to be wrong. In order to be able to challenge a lwyer successfully, you have to be more specific, like not filing a defence in time becuase he calculated the deadline wrongly. Anything which is subject to "judgement" os subjective and should not fall withºn the realms of "Duty of Care".

ismet

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
03/09/2009 19:16

elko2/Msg34:



' "Duty of CAre" ,s very subjective and at the end of the day if a matter goes to court the judge will decide. As I often point out here, the laws are mostly universal but the mentality of the people who apply them differ enormously. Law is not a positice science like physics, its more like medicine, what is correct today may be wrong tomorrow.'



As much as I normally respect your postings, certainly this sounds like an euphemistic generalisation in order to exonerate TRNC advocates, the legal system and the judiciary.

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
03/09/2009 19:29

Roy



Depends when they want to upgrade their top of the range Mercedes to a Bentley!



Richard

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
03/09/2009 21:27

Tenakoutou,

I am not trying to exonerate anybody. Indeed I believe that the standards of the judges and the advocates are very low. I disagree very strongly with some of the decisions not just from the District Courts but the High Court and sometimes I write about these decisions on these Bulletin Boards. My posts above is only an attempt to explain the situation rather than exonerate anybody. Sometimes I write about the lack of culture amongst the Turkish Cypriots and I see no reason to hide things as I see them. Every time I go to a serious concert here in Famagusta or Girne (as last nght), I leave in disgust. There is always somebody chatting away as if they are watching the telly.

ismet

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
04/09/2009 22:47

I bought in 2006 before the new law. I was told to come over and pay £250 when the new law came in. I have a receipt which states if is for Land Registry. My builder Cafer Yucelgazi specified to the Estate Agent that his buyers were to be channelled through the same Advocate so that he only had to deal with one advocate. The land owner Hasan Sungar is not on the Contract of Sale, there is a seperate agreement between them regarding the land. My ex-advocate stated that as there was an agreement between the landowner and Constructor, then the landowner did not need to be on our contract. I am now wondering if it has been registered with the land registry as I wrote to my ex-advocate 2 days ago and asked for the Land Registry Document, Land Registry Number and Building Permission documentation/information. I got an email back stating that I was accusing him of negligence and threatening to sue me. But no answers to the above questions re Land Registry/Building Permission

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
04/09/2009 22:56

Katymackem



Call his bluff, he's a bully and playing on your femininity. Email me off line and talk about tactics to reverse his smugness, at least I can scare the shit out of him. There are a few heavy weights I know in a similar situation who are ready to go for it!



Richard

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
04/09/2009 23:38

Your honest reply is much appreciated, Elko - in fact, I would say, an extremely brave gesture on a public forum.

audge


Joined: 09/02/2009
Posts: 18

Message Posted:
05/09/2009 00:04

Receipts from the Land Registry can be for many things and do not always state clearly the reason for them. If you find that your contract has not been registered then you should check maybe by using another solicitor that no mortgage has been taken out on the land.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
05/09/2009 00:11

The advocates and judges should hang their heads in shame frankly. So should the politicians for letting them get away with it.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
05/09/2009 00:25

Re. msg. 38

Kathy,

If the sale contract is between you and the builder only and assuming that the builder did not sign the sale contract additionally on behalf of the owner of the land in accordance with a power of attorney attacched to the contract, there is no way for this sale contract to be registered with the Tapu. Indeed I belive that in these circumstances you can have a claim against this lawyer and make no mistake, you can find a young lawyer eager to make a name for himself to take on such a case. Furthermore, you should name and shame this lawyer. If you are going to do this, state your undisputable facts in the first paragraph and then make your comments in the following paragraphs. You are free to be as unreasonable as you like with your comments as long as you get your facts right. Hence make sure facts and comments do not intermingle. This is why you must state them in separate paragraphs.

ismet

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
05/09/2009 00:28

ismet

Having been refused PTP, I've registered my contract, should I protect my position further & ask my builder for an irrevocable POA in case he dies etc?

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
05/09/2009 00:29

audge



Now this is very sound advice, having paid one bandit Advocate to do what he hasn't done, go and spend more money to a second one to confirm that the first one hasn't done what he should've done, then parting with more cash to the second one to do what the first one should've done but didn't but promise to do the same, absolutely nothing! You must have graduated from the LSE! Or be related to Bill Gates!



Richard

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
05/09/2009 00:39

msg.44

Hector:

1. I am aware that many advocates like to draw up "irrevocable" POA in order to make people believe that they are irrevocable but I dispute this claim. It can be revoked at any time and indeed it expires upon death.



2. There was a new law towards the end of 2008 about leasehold up to 99 years but as far as I am aware the bylaws have not been enacted yet and thus its not functional. Once funtional, you may be able to lease it for 99 years and have it registered with the Tapu. They will give you a Leasehold certificate that looks very much like a title deed. So you need a little bit more patience.

ismet

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
05/09/2009 00:42

ismet

Thank you. Patience needed I agree.

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
05/09/2009 00:45

Hector Msg 42



Wouldn't make a blind bit of difference, they all sleep together!



Richard

audge


Joined: 09/02/2009
Posts: 18

Message Posted:
05/09/2009 02:14

msg 45 Richard

What do you suggest she does then - sit back and loose everything around her. Most people have had to pay extra money out to try and secure their properties due to not getting what they expected from their solicitors. We are all learning the hard way. Just repeatedly slagging them all off (justifably so) is not going to solve our problems.

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
05/09/2009 02:52

audge



'Good money after bad'!? So you are going to recommend a legitimate 'Law Firm'! I look forward to hearing from you the name of such a practice. My advice is if the building is complete and you have keys, move in, wait and do nothing. Why press so eagerly to chuck your money away?



Richard

jinyx


Joined: 21/08/2009
Posts: 161

Message Posted:
05/09/2009 03:43

Theres an old saying in law which applies in any country and through all of time, which blows all the previous messages out of the water and can't be disputed except by the biggest fools, "BUYER BEWARE!" ( caveat emptor) in latin.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
05/09/2009 10:42

Come on, Jinyx - we all know that, and it's totally irrelevant to the subject of this thread. Try and contribute constructively, or please refrain from exposing your inadequacy.



As regards POA - from what Elko tells us - the obvious answer is to try and sell up whilst POA is valid.



I shudder to think what a lonely, vulnerable widow would do if the POA expired. She is totally unprotected by existing law.



If this is not fact, I am sure we would all be most grateful to learn 'how so?'

jinyx


Joined: 21/08/2009
Posts: 161

Message Posted:
05/09/2009 12:27

Tenakoutou, I will treat your remark with the contempt it deserves !

audge


Joined: 09/02/2009
Posts: 18

Message Posted:
05/09/2009 12:47

The person in question is unable to move in as the place and site is unfinished therefore before they should consider spending their money to get it finished as the builder is not going to then they should at least spend some money to check that it is worth doing so.

audge


Joined: 09/02/2009
Posts: 18

Message Posted:
05/09/2009 13:15

Tenakoutou

Not that I understand what you are discussing with Jinnx but the mention of a POA expiring has made me think about my situation which has been going on for about 5 years due to builder leaving us to finish off etc.

For what reasons could a land owner revoke the POA that he has with my builder. The landowner has been settled and my contract has been registered but I do not have my deeds as yet due to my PTB being delayed as it was one that got lost. Part of the land is still in landoowners name.There should be no problem with the PTB as others on site have theirs.

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
05/09/2009 13:40

The house is complete (ready for furniture, white goods etc). There is no access as the steps/pool are incomplete. Access is only obtained by going to a villa 2 down from mine. (I broke my leg in December and still having diffulculties and physio that is not easy). The pool is incomplete - what steps are there go down to the side of the pool and stop several feet above the ground. Many thanks Elko2 for confirming my thoughts. I have got a new advocate who is doing exactly what you said. I have been back a week, but he has kept me informed of progress and started searches and researching my situation - before I paid him. He also gave me a written statement of actions with costings IN ADVANCE stating what we can do (as above) and then if that does not work what we need to do next - his prices were £3000 less than my old advocate for 'one' option. All actions are £1775 less than the oh . He trained and worked in London and stated all our options and the pros and cons for each option

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
05/09/2009 15:08

msg. 55,

A POA can be revoked any time but anything done with the POA prior to the withdrawal stands.

ismet

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
05/09/2009 18:42

Elko2/Msg46:



'1. I am aware that many advocates like to draw up "irrevocable" POA in order to make people believe that they are irrevocable but I dispute this claim. It can be revoked at any time and indeed it expires upon death.



2. There was a new law towards the end of 2008 about leasehold up to 99 years but as far as I am aware the bylaws have not been enacted yet and thus its not functional. Once funtional, you may be able to lease it for 99 years and have it registered with the Tapu. They will give you a Leasehold certificate that looks very much like a title deed. So you need a little bit more patience.'



1. Another worthless document: 'irrevocable' means 'cannot be revoked' in the English language.



What does 'fraud' mean in TRNC? - certainly not 'theft by deception', otherwise it would, or should be a police matter.



2. 'Freehold' is what many bought, why should we settle for 'Leasehold' and more than halve the value of our properties at resale time?

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
05/09/2009 18:59

msg.58

Tenakoutou

In strict terms you should listen to the Minister of the Interior who was on record saying that foreigners should not part with their money until they get their PTP first. There, its all your fault

ismet

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
05/09/2009 19:20

Oh dear, Elko!



How can you possibly believe in the practicality, or workability of this ridiculous legislation - especially if a TC gets his Kocan in a week?



If people had waited for PTP, the TRNC building boom would either, never have happened, or collapsed - you and I both know it, as does any rationally thinking person.



If you want to quote 'strict terms', then in strict terms we shouldn't have been allowed to be so lied to, then subsequently so cheated.



Come on, Elko - fair do's!

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
05/09/2009 20:07

Katymackem: I sincerely wish you all the best, but please be aware that even if you eventually get a court judgement in your favour, the court's decision is (allegedly) enforcable only after further extensive/expensve litigation.



Whatever your advocate advises, you would be well advised to get in touch with the Home Buyers' Pressure Group.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
05/09/2009 22:09

Katymackem



Who is your current (new) advocate?

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
05/09/2009 22:47

Good question, Hector!



Somebody might be able to save this innocent/kind/decent lady a lot of money and heartache.



On the other hand, I'm sure we all wish she has made a sound choice!

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
05/09/2009 23:57

Ismet



Are you loosing the plot? PTP can only be applied for after buying or agreeing too, whatever the conditions of purchase, 'sale of contract' documentation of intent and monies parted, is needed. You seem to be playing a 'double edge sword' here with only a ravine to fall into.



Richard

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
05/09/2009 23:59

I think Ismet was using irony.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
06/09/2009 00:31

Richard,

Don't blame the messenger. I was only remininding you what the right honourable Minister said. Are you saying that he was neither right nor honourable? tut tut tut.

ismet

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
06/09/2009 00:33

Hector



Never met Ismet so cannot comment on the creases in his shirt!



Richard

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
06/09/2009 10:30

ismet:



You know the PTP procedure - so how can any minister who condones such a ludicrous law be either 'right', or 'honourable'?



'Running with the hare and hunting with the hounds' must be your forte - unless you are 'tongue in cheek'!



Do I detect a smile of slight bewilderment on your profile photo?



If that's what it is, I wouldn't blame you for it one scrap!

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
06/09/2009 19:29

Just in case anybody find it of interest, the right honourable Interior Minister who uttered those words was a practising Advocate prior to becoming a Minister. Does it surprise anybody?

ismet

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
06/09/2009 23:40

Err... no...

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
06/09/2009 23:45

Hector, I was really expecting funnier replies but that will do.

ismet

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
06/09/2009 23:55

I aim to please

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
07/09/2009 19:00

ismet/Msg69:



'Just in case anybody find it of interest, the right honourable Interior Minister who uttered those words was a practising Advocate prior to becoming a Minister. Does it surprise anybody?'



Well, of course he would condone the practice of advocates, then - silly us!

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
08/09/2009 00:46

What surprised me was when I sent emails asking specific questions, I got 'non answers' skirted around the topic but no answers. When I asked 6 questions and asked him to answer them individually I got half an answer to 1 question. I should have guessed something was not right.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
08/09/2009 18:52

Katymackem/Msg74: Rest assured, it is always questionable whether there may be a hidden agenda and an ulterior motive....but, surely not with the intention to defraud?

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
08/09/2009 23:02

Katymackem



"when I sent emails asking specific questions, I got 'non answers'"



Probably because he didn't know the answers.

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
08/09/2009 23:25

The answers are that there are no answers except the size of your wallet!



Richard

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
09/09/2009 08:15

So, it's pay out oodles of cash for questions, but nil refund for 'non answers'!

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
11/09/2009 00:48

I have just been informed that my neighbours property (2 doors away) has not been registered. I await my fate!

joandjelly


Joined: 24/02/2008
Posts: 2953

Message Posted:
11/09/2009 01:12

If you go to the land registry with your contract which should state the details of the existing title deed, you will be able to get a search done which will show you any mortgages, registrations, etc against that deed. We did this and for a small charge, received a document that confirmed that 9 out of 10 houses on our site had been registered. Names were not specified but we were able to find out this information through a TC friend.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
11/09/2009 10:08

Katymackem: I trust you won't discover that there's an injunction taken out on your property like we did when we went to register.



In our case we discovered that a crooked bank manager had forged our Vendor's signature and helped himself to a lump of cash by mortgaging the house we'd paid in full for. His excuse was that he'd got the bank's money a bit muddled up with his own!

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
16/09/2009 19:51

But it appears that we have a contract which is signed by Cafer Yucelgazi only and us. There is another contact between Cafer and Hasan Sungar giving Cafer permission to build on the land. We were assured by Sener Law firm that this tripartite agreement was adequate.

Is this true?

joandjelly


Joined: 24/02/2008
Posts: 2953

Message Posted:
16/09/2009 21:11

It isn't a tripartite agreement unless there was a contract signed by all three of you. I personally don't think it is adequate to have the two separate as if there is a dispute between the landowner and builder you would not be party to any legal proceedings.

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
16/09/2009 21:16

Ismet

Any advice on this please

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
16/09/2009 21:50

Catherine



How on earth can you possibly think that two different contracts signed for the same property, one of which you're not party too can be above board? Sorry, you've been had by your Advocate, as I read it.



Richard

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
16/09/2009 22:20

My Advocate assured me that this was done in order to protect my rights as a buyer.

Aga Buyers A G


Joined: 04/10/2007
Posts: 488

Message Posted:
16/09/2009 22:53

YOU PAY MONEY THE ADVOCATE SAYS WHAT U WANT TO HEAR - U ASK QUESTIONS AND MAKE HIS/HER DAY DIFFICULT THEN ADVOCATE GOES SILENT



MONEY IS ALL THEY WANT !



http://uk.video.yahoo.com/watch/5897512/15352000



ABAG

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
17/09/2009 02:12

Katy,

Your contract is with the builder, so you can sue him alone if he cannot deliver. You have no grounds to sue the land owner. However if the builder has a contract with the landowner, he can make the land owner "third party" to the case that you started against the builder. In legal terms, it means that the builder is directly responsible to you and the owner responsible to the builder. If the builder has nothing, you get nothing unless the builder wishes to be fair and tries to get the money from the owner and pay it to you.

The agreement between the builder and the owner was adequate for protecting the interests of the builder but not your interests. Very poor show by the advocate.

ismet

http://www.elkocyprus.com

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
17/09/2009 02:20

Ismet



Your wife is an Advocate? If so and she's as honorable as you seem to be, why not promote her Practice on this board and help some of these unfortunate people?



Richard

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
17/09/2009 09:50

Even so, Richard, her hands would be tied by the charade of a 'system', itself!

keldanreb


Joined: 17/09/2009
Posts: 212

Message Posted:
17/09/2009 12:10

gates,going on about muslims and christians in racial terms is meaningless.trnc is a muslim country,thank whatever god you worship.my friend just left spain having been gased and robbed in his own home,with his three children and wife all waking with splitting headaches.so this beautiful,stunning,unspoilt ,crime free country has a few rough edges.but whatever god you worship willing,we will collectively resolve all issues.after all there are no problems only solutions.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
17/09/2009 16:36

keldanreb: 'this beautiful,stunning,unspoilt ,crime free country has a few rough edges'



That your first posting could be so utterly naive is incredible - welcome to Cy44!

throstle


Joined: 26/05/2008
Posts: 85

Message Posted:
17/09/2009 19:27

Msg to all

I dont have an unfinished villa (after 3 years) I have a challenge

I dont have an estate agent who took the money and let me sign a "sales contract" they produced - I have a challenge

I dont have an advocate with no duty of care and doesn't contact me or reply when agreed and therefore doesn't seem to represent me - I have a challenge

I dont have a developer / builder (and their close family) driving round in big cars - I have a challenge

I dont have the buider and developer constantly going back to courts appealing the others decision - I have a challenge

And I dont really know where to go next

Do I need to go on

But we still visit TRNC, WHY BECAUSE MOST OF THE PEOPLE AND THE LAND IS GREAT

We both miss it when were not there, (just got back after another 2 weeks over there)

Throstle4eva

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
17/09/2009 20:09

Dear throstle,



I was a little intrigued by the above posting!



Do you mean that, as stated in your profile, your villa is still at the foundation stage?



Would you be kind enough to clarify - 'I have a challenge.'



Not wishing to appear presumptious, but does this mean that you are still 'throwing away good money after bad' on 'progress payments', or litigation?



I really wish you luck and applaud your admiration for aesthetics of TRNC, also that it seems that you philosophically seem to be prepared to 'write your losses off with a smile'.



Have you had contact with HBPG?

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
17/09/2009 21:53

Hi Elko2

The Builder is Cafer Yucelgazi and the land owner is Hasan Sungar.

What do you advise

throstle


Joined: 26/05/2008
Posts: 85

Message Posted:
18/09/2009 09:53

Tenakoutou

We decided any loss will not make us bitter

We are considering litigation

And yes all we have are foundations

But that does not change our feelings about TRNC, the people, our friends who are there, or that part of the island. We love it

To people who say its expensive, see the euro at 1.08/1.1 to the GBP

We'll visit again in 2010, and onwards

Throstle4eva

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
18/09/2009 10:18

msg. 95

I would certainly sue the builder and I would seriously think of including your ex-advocate as defendant no.2 but it is really up to you and your new advocate to decide on the second point. If it was not for the false assurances of your ex-advocate you would not have entered into this agreement and therefore he is responsible for your losses too. At least that would be my argument.

ismet

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
18/09/2009 11:24

From my own experience with the 'legal system' and the costs involved, combined with the stress incurred, especially at your age - I would gently advise you not to pursue the 5+ year litigation route; which, even if you won your case, is, as things stand, unenforcable.



You will also find, if you consult a second advocate, that in TRNC it is deemed unethical to sue another of his kin, and I am flabbergasted that elko2 should suggest this.



If it was possible to do so, we would have taken that step and unquestionably won our case!

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
18/09/2009 11:31

Roy Msg 98



Advocates in TRNC have no ethics so how can they deem anything unethical?



Richard

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
18/09/2009 11:54

msg. 98

Tenakoutou wrote:

"You will also find, if you consult a second advocate..."



May I ask who is the first advocate?

You will find many happy advocate to sue another one if they really believe in your case. It is a misbelief that you cannot sue an advocate or the government successfully.

ismet

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
18/09/2009 13:36

elko2/Msg100:



As a foreigner, for obvious reasons I cannot (read 'dare not') divulge the name of either advocates for fear of the consequences - you should know that.



Suffice it to say that both are 'powerful' people with influence.



If a misconception by an 'ignorant' foreigner - then perhaps you would be good enough to enlighten everybody as to, say, a couple of precedents where the foreigner made a successful claim and received just compensation from either an advocate, or the government.



That would make fascinating and morale-boosting reading and, I am sure, would go a long way to help those seeking justice to pursue litigation in what is currently and widely regarded as a thoroughly inadequate and fatally flawed legal system.



The ball, as they say, is in your court, elko2!

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
18/09/2009 13:52

Roy



I've already named and shamed the two Advocates who ripped me off on this forum awhile back and I'm still waiting for the early dawn knock on the door!



Richard

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
18/09/2009 15:51

msg. 101:

You are not alone in thinking that foreigners cannot win in court. I think its Tony or Elkinton who wrote several times about his experiences in court and how the judges were very fair and he did win but somehow people only read or understand what they want to believe in. Richard above (msg. 102) is another example who named and shamed and nobody has yet knocked at his door. Of course, if the named and shamed has any case that can hold water they can sue for slander and libel. About three years ago a lady advocate from Girne said that she was going to sue me and I even offered to pay her initial costs (stamps) so as not to change her mind but alas nothing happened and three years limit must be up by now. Making threats or even starting a case in court is one thing, winning is something else. Silly woman should have done her homework before threatening me with a court case.



The courts are for everybody and for most people its a stressful affair. For me its different and I

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
18/09/2009 15:53

ctd.

For me its different and I enjoy it. I am aware of some cases against an advocate but all by Turkish Cypriots. It makes no difference whether you are Turkish Cypriot or a foreigner. However, if you are not resident in Cyprus the defendant normally asks for "Security for Costs" and it is normally granted. In a recent case "Security for Costs" was refused because the defendant (builder) was already in possesion of a substantial sum from the plaintiff. It was a case where the builder stopped building and was offering alternative sites.



The courts in TRNC are not always as competent as I would like them to be but they do their best and certainly they are not biased in favour of the Turkish Cypriots. If anything, the judges tend to support the foreigners as people who invested in this country.

ismet

http://www.elkocyprus.com

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
18/09/2009 15:58

Ismet



God forbid that anyone should want to sue you! They wouldn't know what hit them!



Richard

elkiton



Joined: 15/03/2009
Posts: 514

Message Posted:
18/09/2009 16:55

Hi Elko, yes TonyE is still here and reading the thread. It is difficult when one gets a member of the legal profession that (in some cases) clearly does not have the clients interests at heart. This was initially my position and I did a fair amount of "due diligence" re the finding of a new advocate, flying out from the UK to interview the one finally chosen to represent me. I still believe in "the legal system" here, though not in several of the oft' mentioned law firm's offices. I am currently litigating again and so cannot say anything more, except that I will post the story here whatever the outcome.

TonyE

PS for info, it took only 3 months to get the case before a judge, and yes she was totally impartial, to the point of arranging the hearing date to fit in my prearranged visit to the North.

PPS there is a governing body and complaints protocol, a colleague of mine is awaiting the outcome of a formal complaint against an advocate.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
18/09/2009 17:14

Elko'2/ 'I am aware of some cases against an advocate but all by Turkish Cypriots.'



Even though I, and everyone who knows my story says I should, I am certainly not going to take the risk, as a foreigner, of suing the advocate, who, by his ignorance, laziness and stubborness, cost us half our life savings. To do so, I contend, could jeopardise our temporary residential status by a 'Let's get rid of the problem!' collusion.



If anyone considers me cynical - my retort is: try a small dose of going through what we've been through for the last 4 years!

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
18/09/2009 18:53

msg. 107

Having a good case is never enough for going to court. For most cases it can be costly (specially if you have the sort of advocate who is after your money rather than justice), it needs courage, conviction and the ability to withstand great stress. So it is not for the faint hearted. Going to court must be the last resort. Having said all that, it is good to have determined people and not allow the crooks to have their way all the time.



I don't blame you for being cynical and one should go to court as a last resort and not as a first option.

ismet

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
18/09/2009 20:05

Thank you sincerely for your moral support, Elko2 - but I'm sure you realise the *negative implications for any foreigner embarking on the TRNC 'litigation roller-coaster'!



*And not just a 'terminal disease of the bank balance'!



Nod - wink - chunder!

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
19/09/2009 00:40

Elko2, Many thank for your comments. Please see below an extract of an emails received from my ex-advocate Mustafa Sener:As you know and as you have been aware since the very beginning your Contract of Sale was signed with Cafer Yucelgazi as the Beneficiary and Constructor of the project in question. The title deed attached to your Contract of Sale clearly states that Hasan Sungur is the land owner. However at the time of signing your contracts Hasan Sungur refused to sign or be a party to your Contract of Sale or any other Contract of Sale which Cafer would sign with any other party on the same project.

For that reason in order to legally accommodate the signing of your Contract of Sale and in order to protect your rights on the property legally we requested for Hasan Sungur to provide us with an signed and valid agreement with Cafer Yucelgazi indicating their relationship in relation to this land and project. Hasan Sungur upon this request provided us with the necessary agreement

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
19/09/2009 00:45

showing that he was giving consent to Cafer Yucelgazi to build and sell a certain number of the Villas within this project.

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
19/09/2009 00:51

This was sufficient to legally allow for the Contract Signing to take place. This same agreement was also attached to each and every one of the Contracts signed for this project.



We then proceeded to stamp each Contract of Sale and to register them with the Land Registry office. However the Contracts were not signed by Hasan Sungur himself as the Landowner this process would not protect you against Hasan reselling or mortgaging the land. However in view of this as a Law Firm we have kept a constant eye on the developments on this project, and have on many occasions been involved in trying to resolve the disputes arising between yourselves and Cafer. At the same time we have monitored at the Land Registry office to ensure that no mortgages were registered against the land, and the land registry office have assisted us in doing this.' He is assuring us that this is to protect us against Hasan Sungur selling the land. If our contract have been registered - he cannot sell it can he?

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
19/09/2009 09:09

Katymackem: you definitely need to be talking to HBPG about this. They will know of any precedent(s) to your current dilemma.

Molly


Joined: 30/08/2008
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
19/09/2009 09:54

Katy the registration of your contract only gives you limited protection. As it stands, Cafer could not sell your property without your consent.



However, if either Hasan or Cafer instigated court proceedings against the other, the outcome of the case could adversely affect you. It would, of course, be a very complicated state of affairs for the purchasers to defend.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
19/09/2009 10:02

msg. 14

Molly,

You missed the point. It was not possible to register the Sale Contract because it was signed between the Buyer and the Builder and not the land owner. You cannot register a contract where the land owner is not party to it directly.



In my view Registration gives good protection to the buyer for acts after the registration, i.e. any mortgage in place before the registration has priority. If the owner of the land had been party to the sale agreement, then any dispute between the owner and the builder would come second to the interests of the buyer. This is not the case in this specific situation because the owner was not a party directly to the sale contract. ıt can be argued that the owner was indirectly party to the sale contract but that is the blah blah part which the courts find difficult to decide on.

ismet

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
19/09/2009 22:51

I have been assured by Sener Law firm throughout, that 'all conveyancing - including registration has been carried out.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
20/09/2009 10:00

Katymackem: from what you tell us; in contrast to what Sener tells you, your Contract of Sale is a flawed, worthless document if the landowner, Hasan hasn't signed it.



Sener, who are [allegedly] at fault, are unlikely to sue themselves for their error in failing to inform you that they had not ensured that the landowner was a signatory at the time the Contract of Sale was signed.



Your situation begs the question: 'Was/is this a premeditated collaboration, using deliberate deceit with the intention to defraud?'



Unfortunately, to initiate any litigation costs 'an arm and a leg' and, in my own bitter experience, is more than likely to get you nowhere.



Try to find out who the landowner's bank is and present the manager with your Contract of Sale - that might, possibly, deter the bank, should he apply, from granting the 'said landowner' a mortgage.

Molly


Joined: 30/08/2008
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
21/09/2009 09:48

Ismet (post 115), you missed the question! Katy asked - post 112 - if her contract was registered could he sell the property? The answer of course would be no except with her consent.



Tenaktou - her contract is not worthless just because it could not be registered. If a contract exists between the landowner and builder then presumably consent was given for the builder to enter into contracts of sale. If this is not the case then Katy's lawyer has not done their job properly.



I do not believe that Hasan Sungur would try to sell any properties if such an agreement exists. He is in a prominent position and portrays himself to be a good guy. But, if Hasan & Cafer were to end up in court, then all the purchasers could be adversely affected and may then be faced with taking legal action themselves.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
21/09/2009 10:44

msg. 118,

Molly,

Yes you are right, its me who missed the question



If Hasan and Cafer end up in court the purchasers should join in somehow. They could join in as co-plaintiffs (legally possible but the judges and the advocates are not used to it so it will need a lot of persuation) or start a new action as plaintiffs and have Hasan and Cafer as co-defendants and then have the two cases consolidated which will be received more favourably by the judges and the advocates because there are lots of examples to rely on.

ismet

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
21/09/2009 12:02

Molly/Msg118: ' - her contract is not worthless just because it could not be registered. *If a contract exists between the landowner and builder then *presumably consent was given for the builder to enter into contracts of sale. *If this is not the case then Katy's lawyer has not done their job properly.'



* That is 2 'IF's' + 1 'presumably', Molly!



Why hasn't Katymackem's 'lawyer' arranged a (mediation) meeting with the parties in dispute, as it's certain that they will be anxious to avoid the considerable cost of litigation, possibly coupled with adverse publicity?

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
21/09/2009 12:26

Roy



I think Advocates have already achieved 'adverse publicity' which they have happily achieved without wanting to redress.



Richard

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
21/09/2009 12:46

Richard: the 'possibly' was the 2009 contender for the 'Guiness Book of Records' most gross euphemism!

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
21/09/2009 16:07

I have just been informed this morning that my contract has not been registered.

Also, when I was there in August I showed someone my legal documents (in Turkish) and when she read them she stated that the contract between Hasan Sungur and Cafer had a clause in which stated that it could be annulled after 30 months - they continued to sell houses after this period with no new contract. When I asked my ex-advocate about this, he replied 'Hasan has not indicated that he will end the contract' - very sticky leg to stand on that!!!!

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
21/09/2009 18:33

Get yourself to Hasan's and cafer's banks and shove your contract in the manager's face - pronto!



Ask him to sign a receipt of you having given him a photocopy.



Of course, it's very difficult to know, or discover, how many bank a/c's a person has!

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 00:48

what can I do, anyone got any ideas??????

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 09:02

Katymackem/Msg125:



Have you been in touch with HBPG since you found out that your contract has not been registered?



Do you know the precise reason why Hasan wouldn't sign the contract - has the builder not paid him for the land in full?



Since everybody (TC's) knows one another in Girne, you need to find someone who knows the situation and is prepared to tell you honestly - 'forewarned is forearmed!'

keldanreb


Joined: 17/09/2009
Posts: 212

Message Posted:
08/10/2009 22:33

tenakoutou,thank you for your,"what a terrible place trnc is".and your wonderful welcome message.you say your job is a spacewalker,wow what a wonderful job.