Now I know that the world has gone mad especially the UK

nurseawful



Joined: 06/02/2009
Posts: 5934

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 13:09

As reported yesterday in Cyprus Today. A 12 year old boy is about to undergo hormone treatment which is the first step towards a full sex change. He has just left primary school and started Secondary but with long hair and pigtails and has changed his name by deed poll to that of a girls. He is thought to become the youngest trans sexual in the world

Come on now I am pretty open minded but does a child of 12 years really know his mind and what the hell are his parents thinking of going along with this, never mind the medical profession!!!

dav88



Joined: 01/08/2008
Posts: 605

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 13:12

Is it right to do that when his body hasnt even fully developed yet?? !

nurseawful



Joined: 06/02/2009
Posts: 5934

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 13:15

As I said dav88 I really don't know what the medical profession are thinking of on this one. There is just no way it makes sense. And as you rightly pointed out at 12 years of age his body won't have properly developed yet. I think we will hear more of this story in the coming days in the press!!

dav88



Joined: 01/08/2008
Posts: 605

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 13:16

Well I`d certainly like to see what the parents have to say about it

StGeorgeI


Joined: 27/08/2009
Posts: 973

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 13:17

Don't you just love the UK - NOT!!

mwragg



Joined: 21/07/2009
Posts: 32

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 14:05

There is only one law in the UK...breaking the speed limit. Other than that you can do what you want.

Quarmby


Joined: 15/09/2008
Posts: 975

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 14:29

Surely none of us know the medical history of this person and I assume the medical profession are more aware of this than a few people on this forum. So come on , this will not have been done just because he has changed his name and has long hair. I just wonder about some of you sometimes.

nurseawful



Joined: 06/02/2009
Posts: 5934

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 14:37

Quarmby

I was only quoting what was said in the papers. And this is a CHILD we are talking about not an adult! Is it morally right for this to be happening?

mwragg



Joined: 21/07/2009
Posts: 32

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 14:42

The UK has changed. No longer does the individual have to fit in with society...instead society has to fit in with the individual. That's why anything goes and there are no rules

Quarmby


Joined: 15/09/2008
Posts: 975

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 14:46

Like you I am not aware of the full facts of this case therfore i cannot pass judgement as I am not qualified to do so. Does anyone know the mental agonies this child may be going through with his sexuality? Yes you were quoting from the paper but you also were passing your own judgement, hence my comments.

nurseawful



Joined: 06/02/2009
Posts: 5934

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 14:54

Quarmby,

Yes I was passing my own judgement based on my experience as a nurse. As I said this is a child, psychiatrists and counsellors are there for a reason, 12 years of age (my opinion) is far too young to go through a radical change such as this. The hormone therapy is going to be tough enough before they even start the surgery. What if (as children do) half way through the process he changes his mind what then?

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 14:58

The poor little so and so won't know if he's Arthur or Martha!

mwragg



Joined: 21/07/2009
Posts: 32

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 15:02

dav88 is right. The body has not fully developed yet; in particular the brain

StGeorgeI


Joined: 27/08/2009
Posts: 973

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 16:11

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/6204181/Boy-12-is-having-sex-change-school-annouces.html

StGeorgeI


Joined: 27/08/2009
Posts: 973

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 16:13

Looks like it's been done before:



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-432094/Girl-14-boy-12.html

StGeorgeI


Joined: 27/08/2009
Posts: 973

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 16:16

Here's a picture of Kim/Tim!!



http://www.hindustantimes.com/Boy-becomes-a-girl-after-holidays/H1-Article1-455259.aspx

robinhood


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 71

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 16:43

well no one can say he didnt have balls!!

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 18:50

There is obviously a damn good reason for it otherwise the medical profession would be ridiculed.Lots of medical treatments go on everyday which none of us are qualified to pass judgement on,sorry nurseawful.but you are not a doctor.This decision was not taken on a whim but after serious discussions with several medical departments because of the childs age.I know a lot you like to ridicule the UK and its government,now you start on its Medical profession which is probably second to none in the world.Do use a bit of common sense on matters like this and give the people who made the decision about this childs future some credit,it may just be the right decision....

teatime


Joined: 20/10/2008
Posts: 852

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 19:30

I agree with Coachie, oh hell, now I need a doctor FAST!!!

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 19:35

Coachie, write this down for Gods sake, YES I agree with you,!!!!!!! this child was pos born with the wrong sex organs and could not leave it any longer re the medical intervention.



Crikey I need a doctor now as well, me agreeing with you! help help help, ....... xx

daisy dukes


Joined: 06/09/2008
Posts: 3815

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 19:37

I also agree with Coachie...none of us know the circumstances, therefore we shouldn't judge.



DD

scoobydoo


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 2434

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 20:09

Well said Coachie

Quarmby


Joined: 15/09/2008
Posts: 975

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 20:13

I was saying this at msg 7!!

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 20:18

"absolute boll@cks" as my old uncle Percy would say....

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 20:19

Quarmby, sorry yes you are right you were saying just this in msg7, just jesting with coachie as we dont usually agree on things, ... x

nurseawful



Joined: 06/02/2009
Posts: 5934

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 20:54

Okay folks lets simplify things this child when he/she was school age Mummy and Daddy sent he/she to school with a barbie towel and at this time the child wore a bikini (at school as a boy). Hey ho Bullies here we come!

Mummy and Daddy then decided that he / she could change its name by deed poll! Fact according to the news papers. Sorry folks but this is a twelve year old, if YOUR 12 year old said I am a brave boy or girl I will put my head in the lions mouth what would you say??????????????????????????????????????

Message 18 Coachie NO I am not a doctor, but believe me a damn site more qualified than you, but a child is a child is a child and according to UK regulations that child cannot undertake a sex change before the age of 16.(alledgedly) Google this subject and listen to the views not only from 'the UK' newspapers but from papers all over the world. And more importantly from forums all over the world.

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 21:11

nurseawful, keep us updated re this child, it is all very interesting, ....

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 21:21

Nurseawful..there was no insult intended when I said you were not a doctor and you are definitely more qualified than me in medical matters but what I was saying is this problem will have been discussed at the top level before any decision was made,by people more qualified than you or me or any one else on this forum.



Dizzy ..dont say things like you agree with me otherwise I will have to go to Specsavers again.Thats twice you have said it.....

MsGarnet


Joined: 04/01/2009
Posts: 989

Message Posted:
25/09/2009 03:54

Could be many reasons that we are not apprised of (and why should we be, it is so personal a subject) as to why this child is having this surgery - beLIEVE me you cannot believe all what you read in newspapers. I have been written about two or three times, I was caught up in a war zone, missed evacuation flights, had to live hidden away for a few months, so local populace were not aware I was there - not ONCE were all the facts right, and many 'facts' were put in, just to embellish the story - even when I was interviewed by a magazine face to face upon my return to England, to my horror and chagrin, the article was published with added 'spice' that I had NOT said, and which did NOT happen - taught me (too late) that one should always demand editorial control......perhaps this child was born a hermaphrodite.....whatever the situation, one would think surgery could wait a while longer, and that s/he could live the more 'appropriate' gender that obtains for him/her in the meanwhile......

frontalman



Joined: 28/02/2008
Posts: 499

Message Posted:
25/09/2009 09:56

I'm with Quarmby on this one. It must have been obvious since the child was very young that things were not right. If it is totally obvious that this is a girl in all but one respect then very kind and sensible to intervene now before "she" reaches the age when bullying and beatings may happen. I remember watching a film based on a true story recently from the States where exactly this situation occurred and the person ended up being beaten to death by "her" peer group.

frontalman



Joined: 28/02/2008
Posts: 499

Message Posted:
25/09/2009 09:57

I haven't read the article, by the way.

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
25/09/2009 10:19

There is a lot which I don't understand about this, but one thing strikes me as being very strange. In msg 26 it was stated that "...and at this time the child wore a bikini (at school as a boy)."

Now, this boy might have wanted to be a girl, but even at that age (less than 12?) he must have known that he was actually a boy, even though he might not have wanted to be. In which case why would he need to wear a bikini? At that age and as a boy, a wouldn't have had breasts, so what was he thinking he was being modest about? Does this not suggest that we have a very confused person here who needs to go through puberty and then make decision? Undergoing pyhsical surgery might not help clarify his mind.

I have read of cases where men have sex changes only to become a lesbian at a later date?? Eh? What's that all about? If they prefer women why didn't they stay a man?

boglefan



Joined: 07/06/2009
Posts: 511

Message Posted:
25/09/2009 11:15

ok, might as well join the debate, and this is just a possible reason not actual.



I go back more than thirty years when I worked with in a childrens ward. Didn't happen very often thank goodness but we had babies brought straight from the maternity ward who were born as hermaphrodites. These little mites were put through various tests to determine which sex was most predominant. Treatments were discussed with the parents and surgery offered at this time to restructure the sexual organs. In the case which comes to mind the child had the penis restructured to become part of the labia, as this particular baby had more female traits than male. This was done within a month of the baby being born.

Perhaps these parents for whatever reason felt they could not put a newborn through this, but as puberty approached decided that the time was right.

Still feel sorry for the child as, yes, it does leave her open to abuse by the bully boys./girls.

Just a possiblility folks.

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
25/09/2009 12:32

From a medical point of view,I find this use of tax-payers money, very disturbing. We are born with a gender,and that is dictated by our chromosomes. If you have a y chromosome,then you are male and if you dont.....you are female. Having bits of secondary sexual charactersitics added on/cut off or wearing other gender clothing or make-up....does not make you something you are not. The problem with these children, is not that they were born in the wrong body.......they have the wrong mind set about their sexuality(which really shouldn't be an issue at 12!) and that is THE REAL issue that needs dealing with !

MsGarnet


Joined: 04/01/2009
Posts: 989

Message Posted:
25/09/2009 13:00

What I find most disturbing, is the fact this poor confused (maybe body dysmorphic, if nothing else) child, now has its life in the public arena. The child will be going through enough physically, emotionally and mentally when undergoing this procedure, without whomever the whistleblower (wouldn't have been the child) telling the world if its unfortunate predicament.

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
25/09/2009 13:00

Hi Clarets,



My msg 31 is broadly in line with your msg 34, last sentence.

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
25/09/2009 13:07

Msg 35....yes,certainly a case of unfortunate child of whatever genotype....wanting another phenotype,and being stuck with Cretins for parents!

nurseawful



Joined: 06/02/2009
Posts: 5934

Message Posted:
25/09/2009 13:42

Clarets

Have you any more info on this case than has been in the newspapers if so I would be very interested to hear the whole story.

Is there any indication that this CHILD is hermaphrodite which I suspect not? Surely if this was the case they would find the dominant hormone and 'remove the parts that were not needed' so to speak.

And why in gods name did the parents tell the school and have it announced at assembly, why not just change the kids school and put her in as a girl, and to protect the child explain the situation to the Principle so that there would be privacy without the embaressment of all the kids knowing.

These parents are now doing untold damage in my opinion to this child. As I still hold by my belief that a 12 year old is not capable of making a decision like this.

dav88



Joined: 01/08/2008
Posts: 605

Message Posted:
25/09/2009 13:53

If they changed school they would still know as it has been in the paper with her name and more importantly photo....

AlexF065


Joined: 07/09/2009
Posts: 271

Message Posted:
25/09/2009 13:57

its gone very quiet on the subject in the news

I think the parents have handled this so so badly the poor child is already the subject of bulling and the parents are being threatened

There is no sugestion in any of the articles that this child was born a hemaphrodite he just decided he wants to be a girl and has apparently acted as a girl for years

I do not know what i would have done being faced with this so will not comment

But there seems to now be medical intervention to help so they must feel he knows what he wants but as many have said 12 yrs seems a tad young

Here is a link to the mail on line with quite a few readers comments



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1214314/Boy-12-turns-girl-summer-holidays.html

nurseawful



Joined: 06/02/2009
Posts: 5934

Message Posted:
25/09/2009 14:22

Dav88,

I wasn't aware that the childs photograph had been in the paper! Is it not illegal to publish a photograph of a minor without the parents consent. And if they have consented to this I would suggest that the parents need psychiatric help and they are even more cretanous than I originally thought.

AlexFO65

You are correct in saying that none of us would know what to do in a situation like this if it were our child, but I can assure you that I for one would certainly not have handled it the way this childs parents have handled it.

dav88



Joined: 01/08/2008
Posts: 605

Message Posted:
25/09/2009 14:25

Nurseawful, you are right it has been handled badly. There was absolutely no need for the whole wide world to know about this because now wherever this child goes, there will be people who will recognise her from the photos and some people are just as cruel as kids can be.

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
25/09/2009 18:31

Hi Chris,I dont have any more information on this particular case, but it would appear to have been handled very strangely by parents and school alike. True hermaphroditism is rare and there are things which are usually done in infancy to correct sexual organ appearance if that is the case. I feel there is more going on here than meets the eye.

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
25/09/2009 18:33

There are also issues about consent in cases like this,which can be complex. Certainlt 12 years of age is a strange age indeed to be changing one's sexuality. Dont think I was personally that aware of sexual issues at that age...cant speak for everyone though!

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
25/09/2009 19:28

Didnt used to dicuss sexual issues when that age, more interested in sports, and animals, certainly never even entered my head that such a thing could happen back then, as didnt have any telly and newspapers were a treat for my parents.....( quite hard up) Used to get this condition in cattle, still do. Also isnt this what this Gold medal woman/man has? ... or is this true gender change in this child.



And hi clarets, missed your debates, glad to see you back,



Another thought, these parents could be thinking £ notes,... story, book, who knows with the way our society overall breakdown.

MsGarnet


Joined: 04/01/2009
Posts: 989

Message Posted:
26/09/2009 02:50

Shouldn't a Guardian ad Litem sue on the child's behalf for invasion of medical privacy? Either its own parents or the media or both? I am astonished with the nanny state we have, and the horrendous mistakes social services oftentimes make as regards family decisions, that this family hasn't been targeted and for the child's sake - it be removed from clearly inadequate dysfunctional parents. We will never know the full facts, and the ones we do know, just don't add up - that said, it is none of our business - none of us should know a damn thing - this child will be pilloried from all sides at a time when it is clearly very fragile (whether it thinks so or not).........

nurseawful



Joined: 06/02/2009
Posts: 5934

Message Posted:
03/01/2010 09:37

I haven't been able to find any more updates on this story since it broke last year. I would be interested if anyone has any more info on what happened to this child.



Chris

scruffdog


Joined: 09/12/2008
Posts: 742

Message Posted:
03/01/2010 10:52

Two things I have noted reading through this forum. How did a 12 year old get hold of a bikini, surely the parents must have indulged and secondly it states the parents gave an interview to the SUN - think this must say something else for the parents a newspaper that pays alot for sensationalism. Try and adopt your grandchildren because their Mum is a junkie in UK no go,they can be adopted by a gay (male) couple, traumatise youngsters physically and emontionally and you can get away with it if you live in the right area, time after time. The UK has got about as low as it can.

mamachina


Joined: 22/11/2008
Posts: 730

Message Posted:
03/01/2010 11:49

When we were in UK (early noughties) there was a long series on tv about a young girl,. who had been acting/living as a boy, called Fred, for quite a few years. She was just entering puberty and all the medics were in agreement that if she/he was to become a boy, then 'now' was the time to start treatment etc before her body had begun to turn her into a 'proper' woman. It showed him and his parents visiting many other girls now boys/men who had gone through all the various treatments etc. It was not done in a sensational way at all. I think the parents were sad they were to lose their girl, but since babyhood she had acted and thought as a boy. The school was used to her being Fred, as were her friends. It would be a long gradual process and I think in the end it was decided she would start it, as it would be easier than later. In the programme there were two others who were actually going through the treatments who were much older and finding it more difficult.