Conference on Property Contracts

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
02/10/2009 23:47

There will be a conference on 9th October 2.30 pm at Pia Bella Conference Room, Girne. It will be given by head of Baro Hasan Sözmener who is a retired judge and General Secretary of Baro Advocate Feyzi Hansel. It will be in Turkish but it will be translated into English. Signing sale contracts without a full knowledge of rights can lead to problems and thus uncertainty and doubt about the legal system in TRNC. In the absence of proper information, the courts may not always yield the expected results and this can lead to unfair criticism of the legal system. Therefore the Baro believes that it is essential to inform the public about the legal system, its institutions and basic legal norms.

ismet

http://www.elkocyprus.com

AlexF065


Joined: 07/09/2009
Posts: 271

Message Posted:
03/10/2009 00:15

A very good idea

CAn the conference be taped and translated into a MUST READ doc for all buyers and prospective buyers?

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
03/10/2009 00:44

Ismet



I've just read your above post three times and cannot believe what you've written! Signing a 'sale of contract' is drawn up by TC Advocate who must be fully aware of all legal ramifications before it's presented to the purchaser! This will be another whitewashing affair negating the legal 'profession' of any responsibility! Pretty short notice for a meeting given the evident magnitude of the problem and consequential outcome, so obviously not looking for a large turnout! Why in Turkish as the perceived aggrieved are predominantly English speaking?



Richard

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
03/10/2009 01:00

Richard,

No comment about the first part of your post but why about "Why in Turkish". Simply because the speakers are fluent in Turkish only but there will be translations into English and no doubt from English into Turkish. So you will be able to ask your question.



I know both of them and they are well meaning chaps and they both know me. The head of Baro retired as a judge at a very early age because of failing eyesight but he is very consciencious and hard working.

ismet

AlexF065


Joined: 07/09/2009
Posts: 271

Message Posted:
03/10/2009 01:54

I think that a great problem is the advocate being able to "WORK" for both sides of the transaction



The pressures are very big to treat both sides fairly but one side is a person who develops lots of properties the other is a chap who does not speak the language is buying one holiday or retirement home on a small Island

so who's side is the advocate on when the sh@t hits the fan????



I think it is a constructive move and in the right direction, and tend to agree that these are Turkish Cypriot men and would feel more comfortable speaking in their birth language



While i do see your point Richard about the short notice perhaps the forum can get the jungle drums beating and quite a few from the expat comunity turn out even if it is only one person from each development

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
03/10/2009 09:23

Pre '74 Turkish Title properties sold to foreigners and subsequently, arbitarily, refused PTP because estate agents did not 'inform' prospective purchasers - in fact, were told: 'PTP in TRNC is a mere formality.'



Is this subject, with all its attendant current and potential problems for purchasers, likely to be addressed, Ismet?

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
03/10/2009 09:48

msg.6

The conference will not be given by the President or the Prime Minister or even a simple politician whose job it is to bring in new legistlation. The head of Baro will simply try to explain the current situation and point out the pitfalls. I presume he has looked at numerous complaints made to the baro and formed an opinion about the nature of complaints and especially how many made against the advocates are justified. For example if you are blaming your advocate for late PTP or refusal of PTP, it is unjustified. I expect he will dwell on such things but I am only guessing really.

ismet

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
03/10/2009 10:02

Ismet



No excuse, when I reported two Advocates, one for malpractice the other for fraud, gave a written signed statement in conference with the Bar Council and still have heard absolutely nothing for the last six months. This, after numerous phone calls to them with the promise of a return call which mysteriously never ever happened! Really stirs up confidence in the legal system in TRNC! All a bunch of incompetent legalised crooks!



Richard

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
03/10/2009 10:02

Why do I feel that we are going to be told that it's our fault again? Just read this article ( http://www.hbpg-trnc.net/documents/Press/CT150809_lawyers.html) from the Cyprus Today (15/8/09) and you'll get the gist of how the legal profession feel. Please be careful what you say there because the article also says that it is a crime to insult the legal profession. Do I feel an article coming on? Comments please to editor@3cyprus.com

Mal - Editor http://www.northycyprusfreepress.com

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
03/10/2009 10:36

Elko2/Msg 7: We all know the pitfalls, already. What people want is a thorough overhaul of this totally unfair and inadequate 'legal system'.



Failure of the government to deliver and implement the necessary reforms will only lead to the further demise of the construction and real estate industry and degradation of the TRNC economy, due to the ongoing generation of more and certain 'bad Press', as current purchasers' problems escalate and potential buyers shy away due to complete lack of confidence.



But let's be realistic - successive governments are perfectly aware of all the problems; and if not, their elected 'ministers' simply have no place in government. The HBPG have offered them viable solutions, but have they acted on the sound advice proffered?



'The current pitfalls': I, for one, have already had a gutsfull of all the euphemistic 'clap-trap'.



That is what the head of Baro needs to be told, in no uncertain terms.



I thoroughly agree with Richard in Msg 3!

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
03/10/2009 12:19

The meeting should be used as a constructive platform to challenge the system. The law states that one should apply for PTP before entering any contract of sale. We should therefore abide by this and shout loud and clear to all foreign purchasers that this is EXACTLY what they should do. Of course the ones that will be at the mercy of this law will be the estate agents, advocates and developers. Sales would plummet over night as people would simply pay a very minimal deposit and hand nothing over until PTP was granted.



Secondly there should be a standard contract which is then individualised to include extras to the specific development. This would set the stage payments as a % of the house price and an agreement that these will not be paid until the developer has reached this particular stage. In other words you get what you pay for.The biggest sums of money would never be paid over till completion and exchange of deeds happens.



If the developer does not complete then the contr

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
03/10/2009 12:32

worth of the existing land and building work should be calculated so that the developer is paid what is due, but the buyer retains his money to employ others to complete the build. The title deeds being exchanged before the builder hands over.



Simples



So why won't this work?

1) Insufficient pressure is being applied from pressure groups and British purchasers.

2) the Government shows no real commitment to altering law to protect purchasers. One has to reach the conclusion that their priority is the interests of their people even when blatant fraud and corruption is evident, we see little action being taken or court orders enforced.



Constructive action will only come when house buying in the TRNC is no longer raking in the profits. Only then will the industry feel the need to change in order to lure new buyers.



The government by their inaction are helping this happen. Why not join them?

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
03/10/2009 13:37

According to Elko2/Msgs 1&7, the 'meeting' has nothing to do with anything constructive. It is merely to make people (read foreigners) aware of the existing laws - in other words: 'Like it, or lump it!'

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
03/10/2009 15:43

Tenakoutou...good point



Also,if the legal profession is going to abdicate responsibility and blame the buyers for their own lack of knowledge,then should it made a legal offence in the TRNC for an advocate to accept any stage payments for a property,after the small initial deposit, until they know with certainty that PTP has been granted to their client?

keithcaley



Joined: 13/06/2008
Posts: 2521

Message Posted:
03/10/2009 23:30

Bradus,

Re. Stage payments...

Over the years, I bought and sold a few properties in UK.

In common with almost every other Property Purchaser, I would never, ever, have paid anything except a nominal deposit to ANYONE (- including my Solicitor) and neither would my Solicitor part with any money until the property was completed, had all relevant permissions and services, and the Deeds were prepared, and ready for transfer.

I would not, in any circumstance, no matter what the reputation of the Builder or Vendor, consider buying from anyone who did not have clear title to the land itself, and did not have sufficient capital to fund the project without Stage Payments.

I really cannot understand how I, and so many others have abandoned these sound principles, and willingly embraced the system so prevalent here in TRNC.

Did we really ‘Leave our Brains on the Plane’?

Keith.

p.s. Any comments, Wynyardman?

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
03/10/2009 23:47

What is the percentage of property sales in UK where the title deeds are not ready for transfer at the time of the agreement? Shall we say much less than 1%? Hence no problems similar to those you experience in TRNC or the dark side for that matter.

ismet

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 00:25

Sorry, 100%, all computerised!



Richard

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 01:10

keithcaley,



You are so right. Why oh why oh why?

keithcaley



Joined: 13/06/2008
Posts: 2521

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 08:42

Ismet,

Of the 7 houses in UK that I have bought (and sold) 4 were 're-sales' occupied by the owners at the time of sale.

3 were 'new builds' that were not completed at the point where I decided to buy.

Perhaps the difference between the UK and TRNC transactions is mainly that all of them were partly funded by a Mortgage, and Building Societies and UK Solicitors between them, won't part with any money unless the property is clearly worth what is being asked, legally in possession of the vendor, and not until the actual point of transfer of title deeds.

Never, ever, were 'stage payments' suggested, or payment in advance of 'completion' as it is known in UK...

As I say, looking back, I just can't comprehend how we (I !!!) fell for it

Keith.

BTW I do have a nice house, built by Sydney Construction, more or less on time, to a pretty fair standard, on land that the vendor owned - it just turns out that it is 'not suitable for foreigners' - and no one knew in advance...

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 09:55

keithcaley/Msg 19: 'it just turns out that it is 'not suitable for foreigners' - and no one knew in advance...'



Presuming we're talking pre '74 TT; of course those making or dealing with the sale knew.



I was another that was told by the estate agent: 'PTP is merely a formality!'



When I found out PTP was refused, on the grounds that the property is sited too close to a military area, I went back to the estate agent and asked him why he had lied to me. His smirking 'sidekick' then mockingly said: 'You should have known - it's your own fault!'

paddywack


Joined: 04/05/2009
Posts: 959

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 11:30

A lot of people here have been legged over big time,no amount of claptrap from the legal profession is going to change that,only unlikely government intervention will change that.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 11:52

RE msg 15, keithcaley: (...) I really cannot understand how I, and so many others have abandoned these sound principles, and willingly embraced the system so prevalent here in TRNC. (...)

RE msg 15, keithcaley: (...) I really cannot understand how I, and so many others have abandoned these sound principles, and willingly embraced the system so prevalent here in TRNC. (...)

RE msg 15, keithcaley: (...) I really cannot understand how I, and so many others have abandoned these sound principles, and willingly embraced the system so prevalent here in TRNC. (...)

RE msg 15, keithcaley: (...) I really cannot understand how I, and so many others have abandoned these sound principles, and willingly embraced the system so prevalent here in TRNC. (...)

RE msg 15, keithcaley: (...) I really cannot understand how I, and so many others have abandoned these sound principles, and willingly embraced the system so prevalent here in TRNC. (...)



Yes, Keith, exactly my almost daily thoughts.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 12:06

RE msg 1, Ismet: (...) In the absence of proper information, the courts may not always yield the expected results and this can lead to unfair criticism of the legal system. Therefore the Baro believes that it is essential to inform the public about the legal system, its institutions and basic legal norms. (...)

=> With all due respect to you as only the messenger: who is still interested in any explanation or justification of TRNC law that has become a trap for so many of us? Does it change anything for us? At the moment, with very good reasons, the slogan for many here is: "Don't trust your lawyer." It's the government that should finally act, after years of words and more words. Government/Parliament, the law makers, should come to the rescue. When the Law and Legal System were made clear and just - then all the rest is peanuts.

AlexF065


Joined: 07/09/2009
Posts: 271

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 12:26

Ismet

you are i think quite aware re one of your other posts how things SHOULD BE DONE!!

see the quote below



"I agree that the whole property sales in TRNC is a real cock up. The main problem is the system:



1. Permission to Purchase is the main problem. If permission is a must, it should be granted to the individual before he looks for a property. If any property is not suitable for sale to foreigners (including pre 1974 Turkish land), they should have been designated for all to see. This would solve 50% of the problems.

2. You should buy property that has the title deeds ready for transfer i.e. the developer should be forced to do the developing with his own resources. Hence no crooks, bankrupts or fallen out partners.

ismet "



This is what happens in the UK the developer builds houses on an estate the buyer places a deposit and that is all until everything is in place ie the property is built and the buyer and seller have totally different legal teams

untill TRNC is

AlexF065


Joined: 07/09/2009
Posts: 271

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 12:29

The same I think people should to be blunt STOP BUYING



As hard as this is that is one thing I feel this forum has taught myself and I shall look for a long term rental when i am ready,

In the mean while I shall come over for holidays and stay in differing apartment's in differing areas unless I am lucky to gain employment then i shall come over full time earlier but will still only rent

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 16:19

Perhaps people should also realise why many builders etc have a vested interest in the system staying as it is. Take Sun Villas as an example, according to Cyprus Today (26/9/09) the landowner was auctioning mortgaged land he'd already sold to pay his debts despite owning unmortgaged land which could have been sold instead. See the full story on http://www.northcyprusfreepress.com/2009/09/26/government-promises

Mal

WildOlive


Joined: 21/12/2008
Posts: 34

Message Posted:
05/10/2009 23:38

Hi Mal,



Thanks for your coverage regarding Sun Villas but the land isn't mortgaged. The Sun Villas development in Çatalköy has been an on-going court dispute, since the early 1990s, between the ex-building partner and the builder/land owner. Despite this, between 2003 and 2005 the builder/land owner sold 11 properties, out of 25 villas/plots in total. The lawyers also informed buyers that there were no encumbrances on the land, but only one put this in writing! Following a court case in December 2004, the ex-building partner obtained a court order from the Girne District Court and for a writ to auction the whole of the Sun Villas development. The auction recently was to obtain the debt (£450,000 approx.) currently owed to to ex-building partner by the then builder/land owner. The government has now said that only the unsold plots/vllas will be sold as there is enough equity to cover the debt and this is all we ever wanted.



best wishes,



Neil

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
05/10/2009 23:47

To summarise, the legal profession is not fit for purpose!



Richard

joandjelly


Joined: 24/02/2008
Posts: 2953

Message Posted:
05/10/2009 23:53

So once this conference has taken place and the information translated, how is the prospective purchaser expected to obtain the information or indeed know that this information exists when they step off the plane at Ercan? Will the Advocates be handing it out to new customers?

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
06/10/2009 09:10

The only safe way forward for new buyers is stated in messages 24 and 25 above. Be warned. They either change their laws and practices and make it safe for buyers or let it stay as it is and let those buyers who like to play "Russian Roulette" go ahead.

ismet

kibrissibel


Joined: 18/02/2008
Posts: 562

Message Posted:
06/10/2009 17:08

Ismet, how true! Change won’t come unless we all collectively try to make positive changes for everyone and this in turn will improve the economy, construction and tourism sectors etc. We all need to stand up and say, “This is wrong. I’m not going to let it happen any more.” Nothing will ever happen by burying your heads in the sand or saying it’s not your problem. It’s everyone’s problem, but the government need to make the changes.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
06/10/2009 17:19

Please indicate if you are going to put in an appearence. See http://www.cyprus44.com/forums/23717.asp

ismet

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
06/10/2009 18:40

msg 27, wildolive said, "Sun Villas ... the land isn't mortgaged"

Which makes it even more amazing that the legal system had chosen to auction the sold properties instead of the unsold ones. I assumed that this was the reason the courts were able to do this!!!!! But, is it true that this has happened, as I heard no more about the new auction?

Mal

WildOlive


Joined: 21/12/2008
Posts: 34

Message Posted:
06/10/2009 22:46

Mal msg 28.

The goverment has said that only the unsold plots/villas will now be auctioned, as opposed to the whole developement (sold and unsold). We are waiting to receive clarity as to the 'details'.

Further info is you wish for the background http://www.hbpg-trnc.net/documents/Press/sunvillas.html



I agree with Ismet and other observations (Alex, Kibrisibel etc) that the laws/system needs changing.



Neil

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
06/10/2009 23:08

The whole system is untenable no matter where you're from!



Richard