Koop Bank to auction homes

Noeler


Joined: 23/01/2009
Posts: 32

Message Posted:
27/10/2009 23:58

The KOOP Central Bank plans to auction homes at Olive Grove, Esentepe even though the homes have been paid for, keys handed over, and most residents in possession in accordance with their contracts of sale, since 2005. The developers, NCP, raised a mortgage on the Olive Grove development in 2005 and then defaulted on repayments.



Current TRNC legislation leaves the house purchasers exposed to having their houses sold off to recoup this debt. The house purchasers have offered to negotiate with the bank and pay any money owing on foot of their contractual obligations but the bank refuses to take up this offer. Other house owners in the TRNC could also lose their homes where developers have defaulted on loans raised on thier properties.



The KOOP bank is one of the oldest and most respected banks in the TRNC with the Board of Directors answerable to the Government. The Government is aware of the problem at Olive Grove and needs to take action. See http://www.esentepeolivegrove.com

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
28/10/2009 00:05

WHAT! Where's my...................!



Richard

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
28/10/2009 00:07

god this is so awful what a worrying time for everybody. Has this just recently come about. Good luck I hope this bxxxxy gov step in and sort this out.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
28/10/2009 00:10

If someone is nasty enough to purchase one of these properties and also has assets in the EU then the victim should consider civil action against them in the ROC then seek to enforce the judgement in the EU as per the Orams. Anyone risking buying such a property must be stupid as well as nasty.

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
28/10/2009 00:17

Anyone reading this who hold monies in this bank should withdraw all funds tomorrow giving them a huge cash flow problem with no excuses accepted for lack of cash!



Richard

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
28/10/2009 00:28

Noeler,

On the downloaded information you state that the developers borrowed £500k sterling and 1,200k lira. I presume the money unit for the lira in 2005 was Yeni Turk Lirasi or YTL. So 1,200k TL now is roughly £490k sterling. If the interest rate for sterling was 30%, what was the interest rate for TL? Probably it was 100%. If no repayment has been made at all, the total amount owing to the bank must be in the region of £3500k sterling now. The interest rates were so high at the time that if not checked they will continue to charge the defaulters at the old rates. The interest rates have come down substantially now but the old rates were astronomical.

The bank will not sit down to negotiate with you and you must really meet them head on in court. This is a case for a top advocate to argue his way through "constructive notice" with lots of precedences from UK High Courts. The trouble is that most judges now do not have a good command of English any longer.

ismet

nareik


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 113

Message Posted:
28/10/2009 00:32

If the KOOP Bank is a government bank, surely they could not let this happen. I know many developers have gotten into difficulty but I would have thought that the TRNC government would not want to be branded or tarnished with the same brush.

Are other banks involved in this type of disgraceful activity as well?

Noeler


Joined: 23/01/2009
Posts: 32

Message Posted:
28/10/2009 01:03

Thanks all for supportive comments.



Ismet, you are right about the interest rate on the debt and this has really accelerated..



The homeowners are now prepared to fight the bank all the way through the Courts. They also plan a media campaign in the coming weeks.



Precedents from the English Courts on "constructive notice" as in the Barclays Bank vs O'Brien case (House of Lords 1993) support the position of the home owners. Lawers for the homeowners have already received instructions. However, the Government must have a role here. The bank is answerable to them. The fate of the Orams case is now with the English Courts but the Esentepe case and similair are in the hands of the Government. Further negative publicity will fatally damage the TRNC property market.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
28/10/2009 01:04

"Vakif Bank" is totally controlled by the government but "KOOP Bank" is slightly in a different category, it is a cooperative bank of long standing but unfortunately it is now effectively controlled by the government. However, whether controlled by the government or not, all the banks are in the same position in the legal sense. Of course it can be bad publicity for the government but that should be their least worry at the moment. They must be worried about this problem in general and try to do something about it because the problem is not limited to KOOP Bank only. As far as I know, Turk Bank stayed clear of such transactions but most banks are involved.

ismet

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
28/10/2009 08:58

Whatever action you take you MUST post dates and times to ensure maximum attendance at events. Remember about 60 of us managed to halt the auction of Sun Villas and government intervention has led to a probable resolution.



With enough noise on the forums people may start to believe that action similar to what is happening to you can happen to anyone without deeds. It is no longer an option to sit at home and say it will not happen.



Refering back to the Bar Association meeting, what was repeated was GET YOUR DEEDS to be safe. Also the courts will only make judgement based on the law not on perceived justice. Reading the above the banks have probably acted legally but immorally.



The HBPG web site appears to be still off line but what is their involvement?



I will do my best to turn out for any event. I am sure you will know but do not call anything a protest always call it an event.

rwilson


Joined: 14/04/2008
Posts: 87

Message Posted:
28/10/2009 12:06

I love TRNC and I know people in Olive Grove. They don't want to damage the bank, the government or the property market.



The problem is - what option do they have? Looking at their web site http://www.esentepeolivegrove.com I see their only demand is that the bank opens talks with them.



The banks legal position looks decidedly shaky - surely to goodness someone in government MUST tell the bank to negotiate.

kibrissibel


Joined: 18/02/2008
Posts: 562

Message Posted:
28/10/2009 12:17

RWilson, the property market is already damaged due to problems like this that buyers face here. Until laws and systems are changed it will unfortunately continue, to the deriment of the whole of the TRNC and all it's residents.



Noeler, you say the owner's lawyers have received instructions, does this mean the buyers have started court action? If so, what stage is it at?



This dispicable state of affairs needs to be in the English and Turkish speaking press and any potential auction should be attended by as many people as possible, like the Sun Villas auction, to support the owners and prevent villas being sold off from under the buyers feet.

nareik


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 113

Message Posted:
28/10/2009 12:21

Cyprusis home.



How did you manage to halt the auction? Was it through negotiation with the Bank? How did the government intervene?

You obviously have been through this scenario before and have triumphed. It would be extremely beneficial to the Olive Grove residents to follow your lead.



Nareik

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
28/10/2009 16:37

The auction was due to take place and about 60+ people tuned up at the location of the auction and ensured it did not take place. The info was published in the CT and HBPG web site. A peacfull event that was monitored by the police and as far as we could tell all our photos were taken.



This was a sunday and with the excellent press coverage a government minister turned up and talked to Marian Stokes amongst others.



Full details are on earlier threads if you search Sun Villas.



Personally not involved with the site problems but we cannot sit back and watch as people loose their homes so turned out with all the others to help.



As an indication there were several potential buyers at the auction, noticably a GC registered car drove away with a couple of these hyenas on board. So to answer Hector, there are people prepared to purchase the properties expecially as they will be at a knock down price.



It is vital you liase with HBPG to ensure maximum coverage and help.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
28/10/2009 17:05

Noeler,

When a bank lends money and puts a mortgage on the land, they have two options:

1. The bank may ask the Land Registry to sell it at auction,

2. The bank may sue the owner and after judgement ask the court for an order for forceful sale.



Do you know which route the bank took in your case? There may be diffferent avenues to explore in either case. Your lawyers will know more about it.

ismet

joandjelly


Joined: 24/02/2008
Posts: 2953

Message Posted:
28/10/2009 17:15

I've just had a look at your website and would like to ask what you mean when you say the bank has "applied" to auction the homes. Who have they applied to? Have they been to court and obtained judgement against NCP. Does the judgement (if there is one) state that the homes can be sold and confirm the amount that the bank is owned, giving details of interest accruing? When was the judgement obtained?

My site is in the same situation as yours. The bank in our case obtained judgement 12 months ago but none of the residents were represented in the court case as we had no idea it was taking place. You have 6 months from the date of judgement to appeal and this is currently being done by one of my neighbours. The case is at the High Court in Lefkosa and they are currently awaiting a date for the full trial. My neighbour has been told by their advocate that this is a very high profile case.

nareik


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 113

Message Posted:
28/10/2009 18:03

Joandjelly,

it would appear that one of the main problems for home-owners is that they are blissfully unaware that these proceedings are being taken by the bank without being informed by the bank (or their advocate) what is happening. Are you saying that this is perfectly legal as far the TRNC High Court is concerned? That even though they (the High Court) are aware that people have contracts, have receipts for moneys paid, and are living in these properties - that they totally disregard all this information and issue a judgement to auction the houses for the bank's benefit?

If that is the case - God Help Us All - dealing with a morally bankrupt judiciary like that!



Nareik.

joandjelly


Joined: 24/02/2008
Posts: 2953

Message Posted:
28/10/2009 18:47

The problem is the Judge can only rule based on the information that is presented to them in Court and in our case we were not represented so the issue did not come up even though all properties have been registered at the Land Registry. The other stupid thing is that between 10 of us with about 5 different Advocates, not one told us we could appeal against the judgement. My neighbour found out by a chance remark by her Advocate and then it transpired they only had 5 days in which to lodge the appeal. Luckily enough they did manage it.

AlexF065


Joined: 07/09/2009
Posts: 271

Message Posted:
28/10/2009 19:03

i HAVE PUBLISHED THIS ON FACE BOOK AND ASKED ALL MY FRIENDS TO PUBLISH AS WELL YOU NEVER KNOW WHO KNOWS WHO

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
28/10/2009 20:16

I am sorry but such conflicts are very new to our courts and therefore they should be dealt by experienced lawyers and not left to the new graduates. The judges too will have to be guided properly by the more experienced lawyers. I am sorry but I find that most utterunces above are nonsense.

Let us put a few facts right:

1. The time limit for appeal from the District Court to the Court of Appeal is 6 weeks or 42 calendar days to be exact. If the last day falls on a holiday, the next working day is the last day. The days during the summer recess do not count.

2. The court of Appeal can only look at the decision of the District court and amend it if the decision is faulty in view of the evidence infront of the District Court. No new parties can join the case at the court of Appeal i.e. the Plaintiffs and the Defendants cannot be added or substracted.

3. If the judgement Creditor tries to enforce a claim against the movables or the immovables of the Debtor, those parties who have an

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
28/10/2009 20:25

interest in those properties fcan apply to the relevant District Court and try to stop the sale by expressing their interest. It is at this court that they ahve to prove that they ahve a legitimate interest in the relevant properties.

4. If the original case between the bank and the developer is still at the District Court, the interested parties should make an application to join the case as interested parties and put their legitimate claims forward at that stage.

5. In the Civil Procedure Rules there is provision for people to join together and appoint one person to represent them in court but must accept the results to be binding on all of them. This is not a well known rule.



So in my view accusations of corrupt judiciary system is not really called for. The trouble is that such a situation is very new in TRNC and threfore it will tax the capacity of even the more experienced lawyers. Give it another couple of years and even a new graduate will know what to do.

ismet

karakum5c



Joined: 18/03/2008
Posts: 1021

Message Posted:
28/10/2009 20:29

The Government of the TRNC must change the law recognising the owners of properties right to a full refund if a Bank wants to liquidate a site to recover a debt.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
28/10/2009 20:36

Just a follow on from msg. 21. parag. 5:

Civil Procedure Rules Order 9, Rule 9(1) states thus:

Where there are numerous persons having the same interest in one cause of matter, one or more of such persons may be authorized by the court or a judge to sue or defend in such cause or matter, on behalf or for the benefit of all persons so interested.

Order 9, Rule 9(2) tells you how to go about it.

ismet

http://www.elkocyprus.com

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
28/10/2009 20:39

msg. 22

Karakum,

It would be bad law by any standard to make any law retrospective in order to protect somebody but harm others even if the others happens to be banks. Nice try though

ismet

Noeler


Joined: 23/01/2009
Posts: 32

Message Posted:
28/10/2009 23:09

Hi all - thanks for helpful comments.

Ismet, as always, your postings provide great insights to the workings of the TRNC legal system as well as wise advice. Regarding your posting on message 15, my understanding is the bank has pursued the 2nd option.

RWilson, like you, I know the Olive Grove home owners love the TRNC and don't want to cause grief to the bank, Government or anyone else. However, they want to secure the tenure of their homes and will pursue whatever legal means are necessary to achieve this.

Kibrissibel, the OG homeowners have engaged legal representation firstly to assist in negotiation with bank, and if this fails to initiate legal action.

Cyprusishome, your experience on Sun Villas is a very good precedent of direct action, within the limits of the law, which homeowners can opt for when faced with the immediate threat of the auction of their homes. I understand that OG residents are liaising with HBPG and are happy to cooperate with others in similiar position.

nareik


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 113

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 00:03

Ismet,

Re: message 21

when I mentioned "a morally bankrupt judiciary" I am not saying that the judiciary are corrupt in any way, only that there does not appear to be any "natural justice" in the system.

Your knowledge of the TRNC judicial system would appear to be excellent - I am merely an amateur observer.

Your contribution to this tread is very informative and I for one certainly appreciate your information.



Nareik.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 00:14

I follow elko to the letter of the law but it seems to me that the law here is flawed. All these laws by unexperienced lawyers. Where will it all end. Solicitors througout the world line thier pockets. Even the most hardened criminal who knows the law backwords will tell you a brief can earn more with a briefcase than a known criminal with a gun. I just feel everybody ios being held at gunpoint xxxxxxxxxx

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 00:27

Whilst government law will not be retrospective, case law as decided by judges to remedy injustice would be retrospective. Lord Denning is a fine example of an English judge who was prepared to and did so. The English legal precedent of 'constructive notice' where banks were found to have had notice of a wife's interest in property over the mortgage company's interest is a classic and apt example. English common law would not allow this situation to have occurred or if it did, give very short thrift to a mortgage company.

joandjelly


Joined: 24/02/2008
Posts: 2953

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 00:29

Ismet re your message 20. Sorry if you think my utterances are rubbish but you have to remember that we can only go by the information we are given by the Advocates that we instruct. With regard to your point 1 and the timing for appeal, the information you give contradicts the actual facts that are happening with my neighbour. Maybe the terminology is wrong (i.e. appeal) but that is what we have been told. I can assure you that the case currently at the High Court commenced well in excess of 42 days of the date of judgement issued at Kyrenia Court (District Court I presume).

We have tried using an experienced lawyer (40+ years apparently) and they have achieved precisely nothing in the last 12 months. In my opinion, they are all too often caught up in the "this is Cyprus and this is how we do things" attitude rather than trying to test the law with such conflicts that, as you say, are very new to the Courts here. Let's hope my neighbour's much younger Advocate has more luck.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 00:31

In other words the TRNC courts could create legal precedent by way of case law to follow the English case law. Problem is that could bankrupt the banks that loaned money to builders knowing that the properties being or had been built had been bought & paid for. Tough.

rwilson


Joined: 14/04/2008
Posts: 87

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 09:58

Yes, there was a judgement against the builder in favour of the bank. This states that the homes can be sold and confirm the amount that the bank is owned, giving details of interest accruing.

Now the bank have applied to the court for an order for forceful sale.



jo and jelly. Is the 'appeal' relate to the judgement against the builder or to the bank applying for permission to force the auction?





PS _ Marian Stokes is involved and is helping tremendously

Mandy


Joined: 25/10/2009
Posts: 48

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 10:02

Lets not lose track of whats important here.



KOOP bank, knowing peple woned homes, loaned money aganst them and now are trying to have a forced auction and have the people evicted. Worse, they refuse to even talk to the homeowners



Can anyone with consicence have an account with such a bank?



I'd love to hear of peple closing theit account and letting the bank know why!



A GOVERNMENT CONTROLLED BANK TOO!

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 10:21

Can a developer raise a mortgage on your property if you hold the Kocan?

Mandy


Joined: 25/10/2009
Posts: 48

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 10:24

Also, all the people are asking for is that the bank talk to them... They have a proposed solution but the bank wont even listen...

wendy2428


Joined: 24/10/2009
Posts: 7

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 10:56

I've just been on the esentepeolivegrove.com website. I cannot imagine how stressful and heartbreaking it must be for you to have to go through this and my heart goes out to you. Come on Koop Bank, stop playing with people's lives....do the right thing; withdraw your application to have these people's family homes auctioned and open discussions with the families.

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 11:39

There is currently a court case being pursued locally which is trying to prove negligence where banks loan on property which they know has been sold. I have been asked to keep quiet about the case until a result has been achieved but I trust those who have given me this information. It is the reputation of the bank which needs to be focused on particularly if the bank is risking savers money by loaning in such an unethical manner, despite what the legality may be.

Mal

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 11:51

msg 33 says, "Can a developer raise a mortgage on your property if you hold the Kocan? "

As far as I understand it here a property can be transferred to you even though it has encumbrances (a mortgage) because advocates apparently do not have a duty of care to make sure that it doesn't. It's the property which has the charge not the person. But after it has been transferred the developer should not then be able to use YOUR property to raise a loan. It would all depend on the dates the loan was taken out and the date the kocan was put in your name.

Mal

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 12:16

msge 35



I second Wendy 2428 comments. It's a disgraceul situation and I sincerely hope it gets resolved satisfactorily

nareik


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 113

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 14:00

But does anyone know how to get this resolved satisfactorily?

That seems to be the problem with many people in this situation - we all know it's a disgrace but without a concerted effort by many, many people against one particular institution (say KOOP Bank) that will hurt them businesswise or tarnish their reputation, nothing will change.

I like the idea of targeting the reputation of this bank - NAME AND SHAME!

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 14:11

Well it just so happens that North Cyprus Free Press is happy to publish an article in the name of anyone who is willing to put their real name to it. Name and Shame if you are willing to stand by what you write. Contact editor@3cyprus.com

Mal

Soothsayer


Joined: 19/11/2008
Posts: 134

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 15:17

Publish it, read it, this is the truth about the situation!

At least 80% of all properties we have the following case:

A house is "sold", a contract available. It is paid, sometimes in full but not always, for whatever reason. The client applies and waits for permission to buy, and... They don’t hold a Kocan.

The permission is more and more delayed, the transfer also, insufficient paperwork of the developer as e.g. a non existing building permission, or a non existing "declaration of division" of the plot, the apartment bloc or whatever, might be the reason.

during this period the "developer" or whoever, needs to pay e.g. for the building permission/s (!!), the electricity connection/s ( incl Trafo !!), the road work and so on (all „must“ jobs for final transfer) and he takes a loan on this property to finance that work (or runs away with it), because between „contract and now“ the building costs and permissions and so on went up by 35%.

Soothsayer


Joined: 19/11/2008
Posts: 134

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 15:17

Part 2 of 4:

The developer might break several (private) contracts and is the „bad guy“, but it is absolutely correct for a bank to accept that an owner will take a loan on a property for which he holds the title deeds. If it comes to a court case, the developer is either in Australia, is bankrupt or the „reason for breaching the private contract, will be "insufficient payments" by the client, so the developer questions the validity of the whole contract. The only thing he does is „postponing the problem“.

And the bank would like to have the money back (one day).

Soothsayer


Joined: 19/11/2008
Posts: 134

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 15:18

Part 3 of 4:

This happens everywhere in this world and is caused by greedy advocates (who charge a 1500 STG for nothing), developers (who thought they can make money and they sometimes did, but now they are in deep trouble), estate agents (who said „don’t worry“ but don’t give a sh*t after they got their commission), banks (which have astronomical interest rates and "pre-financing projects" is not possible for the developers, and not for „Greek land“ anyway) and a „lazy administration“ which takes month for a simple stamp, and which should send „all the crooks straight to prison for a year or two“ and because the legal system cannot do that so easily, this administration ALWAYS AND SINCE YEARS officially stated NOT TO PAY A PENNY before all paperwork’s are OK.

What else they can do?

Soothsayer


Joined: 19/11/2008
Posts: 134

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 15:19

Part 4 of 4:

And all that is also caused by greedy and „advice resistant“ customers.

They avoid and don’t even look for independent advisers (legal, technical, someone who knows the country...), because of „additional costs, you know“. The typical potential buyer believe in all sh*t, a „nice person“ is talking to them and they think that they make the „deal of their live“ to buy a property for next to nothing (incl everything as British building standards, air cons, white goods and marble floor), and „splash around“ most of their cash in advance. STUPID!

At the end, blame yourself. And how the government can help?

They can postpone the problem (as usual) but WHO pays the bank?

The property might not have a „declaration of division“ so why should the bank talk to dozens of „owners“?

Be realistic.... the MONEY IS GONE !!!!!!

Soothy said.

everon


Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 956

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 15:33

unfortunately Soothy you are probably right "oh dear" !!!!!!

nareik


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 113

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 15:45

Message 40

Malsancak,

the website http://www.esentepeolivegrove.com is very specific with lots of information.

I think that this should be highlighted in the media and I would urge the website hosts to take you up on your offer of publication in North Cyprus Free Press.

The more publicity the better.



Nareik

Soothsayer


Joined: 19/11/2008
Posts: 134

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 16:04

For what? the money is gone. You don't need publicity, you need new homes!

breezyboy


Joined: 14/05/2007
Posts: 1179

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 16:04

So what about all this if you have registered your contract and the land office has confirmed that there are no encumbrances (loans/ charges etc.) on the land.

Where does a bank taking a charge after this, or indeed the purchaser stand then?

Soothsayer


Joined: 19/11/2008
Posts: 134

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 16:13

Ok, go to court, solve it, pay fortunes to advocates, try to find out "what really happened", bribe if necessary (most probably ??!)

and then prepare for the next court case... the „Orams follow up“.

And keep paying....

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 16:21

OK, just being a little cautious about the accuracy of the information as the domain uses invisihosting to protect the registrant's name. This leaves me responsible for what I publish. I'll use a lot of "on http://www.esentepeolivegrove.com it alleges..."

Mal

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 16:24

"Ok, go to court" - it's the legal system that caused the problem, they've got nothing to do with the solution.

Mal

kibrissibel


Joined: 18/02/2008
Posts: 562

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 16:47

Breezyboy - re message 48, the estate agents law prevents landowners from mortgaging or reselling a property which has had the contract registered at land registry. Only time will tell if this is actually the case, but that is what it's supposed to do. Therefore if you have registered a contract they cannot take any mortgages etc after your registration. As I understand it, they could take a mortgage to the value of any unregistered properties on the site, for example, if a site of 12 houses and 11 registered their contracts, they could take a mortgage to the value of 1 property.



These problems with people discovering mortgages on their land/property occoured when people were allowed to register their contracts in Jan 2008. Unfortunately, we were also amongst many who discovered our developer (Seaterra) had taken a massive mortgage on the site.

Soothsayer


Joined: 19/11/2008
Posts: 134

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 17:51

Re Message 51:

No, it’s NOT the legal system which caused the problem!

And exactly this system has to solve this problem. Nobody else!

If this is not the case why the owners are looking for publicity?

Because they want a „social ban“ on the NCP or Koop? That they cannot get a cup of coffee in a restaurant anymore? Or do they want to sort it with a couple of bullets?

Honestly:

If I buy „something“ from somebody and pay in advance and this something is not delivered, I have to bring this person to court and if it is not worth, I quickly forget about my own stupidity. That’s not different here as it is everywhere.

Everybody cries „NO“ when e.g. a workshop wants a prepayment of 50 STG and a lot of people start to lecture the poor carpenter with sayings as „....first the work and then the money“.... but for a house worth 120.000 everything our grandma taught us is forgotten? Again, Stupid.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 17:53

Here is a true story.

I have been looking after the interests of an English lady for the last few years. She got a divorce from her husband and the court granted her a nice sum of compensation. My wife as her advocate collected the money and upon her request she deposited the money with Koop Bank and earned interest on a monthly base. I had authority from my wife to withdraw the money. From time to time the English lady requested some money from us, I withdrew it accordingly and transferred the requested amount to her via HSBC internet banking at no cost. She came to Cyprus last week, we went to the bank together, withdrew all the money and the I helped her deposit it in her name with HSBC here.

We really became friends and took us out for a meal on her final evening. There she told us that she decided to buy an apartment flat, paid £1000 pounds deposit and signed the contract. She asked us if we could collect the agreement from the developer and have a look!!

ismet

Soothsayer


Joined: 19/11/2008
Posts: 134

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 17:53

Now this (of course poor) buyers of these homes have to prove that NCP played foul and Koop acted reckless, nearly assuming on their website that NCP and Koop have been „acting together“ (?)

If only one is the case or nearby, what do you wish these people? Luck? Or a well stocked „war chest“ with sterling silver.



And all that only that they can wait until the „property commission” is knocking on their doors?

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 17:56

ctd.

Paragraph 14 says:

"The vendors, in an attmept to secure funds for the project shall have the right to engage in a financing agreement with any bank and allow registration of a charge over the said land as a collateral guarantee without the prior consent of the Purchaser"

How would you advise this lady? She knew that she could have had advice from me free of charge but thought about it after she signed the contract. This is life.

ismet

Soothsayer


Joined: 19/11/2008
Posts: 134

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 18:15

Ismet, here another one:

In 2003 we met a couple and they did ask for advice because they wanted to buy a house from a certain developer. This company was in trouble already, we explained this and all the other things and discussed for 4 hours... and we did advise against the purchase. Too risky. They left.

Half a year later they came to our house again and did ask us to mediate as they have massive trouble with exactly this people (developer) and soooo much money is involved, bla bla....

We did ask them to leave our house immediately.

How stupid these people in „holiday mood“ are?

nareik


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 113

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 18:25

Ismet,

if I had you as an Advocate when I was buying my property, and you told me the same as you told your English lady client, I would run a mile from that property. But I wouldn't run a mile from TRNC. I would just re-consider, and then buy a re-sale property with Kocan. How I wish I had that advice then. Hindsight is great!



Soothsayer,

I am not blaming NCP, nor do I think they were in collusion with KOOP Bank. What I do feel though is that KOOP were reckless in their lending, knowing what they did at that time. It is the bank that I have a major issue with, and I think they have an obligation to engage with the owners to TRY and sort it out reasonably, which is what the owners want.

Soothsayer


Joined: 19/11/2008
Posts: 134

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 18:42

Who else then NCP is to blame?

Do the purchasers have the same or equal "paragraph 14" in their contract as Ismet mentioned?

If, then nobody is to blame and the Esentepeolivegrove purchasers will lose their court case right away. Not even worth to go a lawyer.

If not, "feelings" are not important, facts are. You have to prove Koops recklessness. And that, I will tell you, will not be easy - it will not happen. Point.

Soothie is hungry and goes for a lahmacun

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 18:45

Soothsayer

Do you work for a bank or estate agent?

rwilson


Joined: 14/04/2008
Posts: 87

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 18:59

Mal



If you email info@esentepeolivegrove.com they may well be able to give you a "real" person to talk to.

rwilson


Joined: 14/04/2008
Posts: 87

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 19:02

Question:- If a bank loaned money to a builder secured on properties the bank knew the builder no longer owned, would you say that was careful and prudent lending on the part of the bank?

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 19:15

thanks rwilson, I've emailed them



soothsayer, the legal system here allows for corruption because transfer of title is prevented by ponderous ptp procedures which means the developer keeps ownership and cash for far too long (1 day would be too long in the UK) so there is a temptation for abuse

Mal

pinkchilli


Joined: 30/11/2008
Posts: 689

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 19:26

Would anyone advise someone, who has not yet got their Kocan, but has had their contract registered, without any mortgages, to put their own/or advocates mortgage on their own property?



The reason I ask, is to stop anyone lending against a property worth say £100,000, with a £100,000 mortgage already secured against it.



If you agree, what are the procedures/costs for putting a mortgage on your own property, which has been paid in full. For the sake of argument, let's assume that the original contract has a clause that allows the purchaser to put a mortgage on the property.



Thanks

Soothsayer


Joined: 19/11/2008
Posts: 134

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 19:32

@ message 60 Hector:



NO!!!!

Never ever

nareik


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 113

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 22:18

Message 59 Soothsayer - "If not, "feelings" are not important, facts are. You have to prove Koops recklessness. And that, I will tell you, will not be easy - it will not happen. Point."



If you looked at the website http://www.esentepeolivegrove.com you will see that there are a lot of facts there, backed up by documentary evidence and witness statements.



Your attitude seems to be: throw in the towel, you can't win - even if you are in the right. A very defeatist attitude that you will not find in other groups like Marian Stokes and Sun Villas.

We have to keep fighting to try and make it right, both for us now and for people in the future.

Noeler


Joined: 23/01/2009
Posts: 32

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 22:26

Mal,



Thanks for offer to talk to Olive Grove home owners and publish a piece on this.



I hope that those in Olive Grove can work with others in similiar circumstances to resolve our problems collectively.



Noeler

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
29/10/2009 22:54

msg.64

Pinkchilli,

The whole idea of registration is to stop the vendor to sell or get a mortgage on it. It is not possible to mortgage it without the consent of the registered buyer.

ismet

wendy2428


Joined: 24/10/2009
Posts: 7

Message Posted:
30/10/2009 14:30

Call me stupid but I cannot see how the Koop Bank can be allowed to auction these families' homes when the families have paid for every brick and mortar that went into building their homes - by this very fact the homes at Olive Grove, Esentepe are rightfully theirs.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
30/10/2009 14:45

Wendy,

In Cyprus if you live with somebody without the marriage certificate, you are considered single i.e. that piece of paper is everything. Do you see the parallel?

ismet

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
30/10/2009 14:48

'If' the TRNC courts follow (had the morality & integrity to) English legal precedent and case law the banks would lose. This is the chance for the Judges to show that they are truly independent of the government and corruption.

Soothsayer


Joined: 19/11/2008
Posts: 134

Message Posted:
30/10/2009 14:57

Msg 66,

I wouldn’t write a 2000 words if I would not have any sympathy with you all.

It’s not easy here, I paid my part to the economy as well and „even Ismet“ sued Boyut. The judges have to handle 35000 open court cases. And look how the procedure is: Ismet plans a couple of years to be successful and that’s a quite easy case because the contracts, as he claims, are in his favor.

With Koop it will be completely different.... „recklessness“.... when I see the installation of my watermen, the nonexistence of safety measures on building plots with a death toll of two dozens a year and so many other things, you could sue half the country for that. My experience after all this years is that it is very difficult to „nail somebody down“ and make him/her responsible for his/hers doings. The TRNC is not a country without laws, but many of them are not enforced.

Soothsayer


Joined: 19/11/2008
Posts: 134

Message Posted:
30/10/2009 14:57

cont.

The police is lazy and the judges only mediate to find an extrajudicial solution because they too don’t want to be responsible for such a thing like a verdict.

It’s all a private thing, the state does not interfere and well known crooks walk free for years because they are not prosecuted, the state power decreases every single day.

And this, msg 63, makes corruption and illegal acting easier. The common „collective disobeying of rules“ (e.g. traffic rules) is the „I don’t give a sh*t answer“ of the small people and a privilege for the others anyway.

You are not fighting a „private person“ which sold a car twice which he didn’t own, you are fighting an „institution“, controlled by the state. Years ago I met somebody who thought about suing the state, the lawyer said, „no no, please no“ They ask „why, what’s wrong?“, the answer was: „...because we just don’t do that...and...you will not find a judge who will rule in your favor anyway...“

Soothsayer


Joined: 19/11/2008
Posts: 134

Message Posted:
30/10/2009 14:58

cont.

And this although they only wanted to enforce an act of administration. Force the state to do a small thing because it is the law. A piece of nothing but everybody backed off.

They broke a traffic law , left the country and never returned.

And because of all that, the Cypriots themselves often lack identification with their country and oscillate between cowardice and selfishness.

Esentepeolivegroove.com uses invisible hosting to protect the registrant's name.

Your file always will be on the bottom of a big pile or is lost, „go back to start“

Most probably the property commission will be quicker than this case will have the first day in court.

Forget about your home. For your own sake, don’t expect anything. Only and only then you are in the „winning position“ and because you lost everything already you only can win. And then fight.

nareik


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 113

Message Posted:
30/10/2009 15:15

Soothsayer

I appreciate that you are sympathetic to home owners in distress and I read your posts with interest.

In the overall scheme of things, I believe that justice will prevail in the end, even in TRNC. I have done nothing wrong, except to believe what I was told by the advocates and the developer. In my opinion the bank cannot (and should not) be as naive as I was in my business dealings within TRNC. I was shelling out my own money - they, however, are lending out other peoples money. They knew that these properties had already been sold to individuals (not just ex-pats, TC and Turkish also) and still they loaned money to the developer. Where is the good business sense in that? It's just asking for trouble. Did they think that we would all just walk away and chalk it down to a bad experience? They have to take responsibility for their decision and be reasonable in trying to find an equitable solution. Not too much to ask in my opinion.

Nareik.

Ozbey


Joined: 04/03/2009
Posts: 304

Message Posted:
30/10/2009 16:01

nariek, msg 66 and 75,



Two very well expressed posts.

I just hope that one day the authorities will realise that, in the long term, dealing with the moral rights of a situation will actually help them to gain credibility.

As yet I don't think they have the foresight to see anything longer term than this evening (in anything and everything they do!)

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
30/10/2009 16:06

ozbey in my experience they will not see beyond the next 10 minutes, never mind thier or thier childrens futures. the here and the now

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
30/10/2009 16:32

If I had a home that was sold by Koop Bank I'd fill it to the top with concrete.

come_on_aylin


Joined: 14/06/2008
Posts: 908

Message Posted:
30/10/2009 18:49

If the banks give out loans on the basis of assets that have been sold they are foolish in the extreme and should suffer the loses. It is their duty to exercise due diligence and not to lend money with the asset in question already sold.



If the person raising the loan has failed to declare material information i.e. that the houses have been sold then they have defrauded the bank...



The first purchaser should have rights over those being exercised by the banks.



If banks don't learn to exercise due diligence then they will never learn and ultimately will probably fail...

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
30/10/2009 19:02

I'm sure that the directors of the banks knew damn well was the situation was. The managers were no doubt under pressure to loan as much as they could at exhorbitant interest rates to meet their targets same as happened in the UK & US.

pinkchilli


Joined: 30/11/2008
Posts: 689

Message Posted:
30/10/2009 19:14

I'm not taking the piss, but do you think that the only way these banks can offer such high rates of interest on savings accounts, is because they will take properties that have already been sold as security, meaning that the bank (the lender) and the builder/developer (the borrower) cannot lose?



It's a bit like me borrowing £1,000,000 from a bank and giving my ex-bosses home, which he has paid for, as valid, legal, security! I'd be straight down the casino. Black I win, red I win.



The problem is Permission to Purchase, which virtually STOPS foreigners obtaining title after paying in full, when buying a property. Maybe the TRNC Government(s) are not too stupid.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
30/10/2009 19:24

It appears that the TRNC politicians don't want anyone other than TC's buying Turkish title land. The 'foreigners' can buy any other property providing not too near an army base (as a matter of interest anyone know of anyone being refused PTP on exchange land near an army base?). The 'foreigners' will have the problem of sorting out ownership with the original owner and not the government. It also provides a good reason for the NC politicians to prevent a solution to the reunification problem.

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
30/10/2009 23:28

Reading the last few posts you must refer to the legal position not what you think it should be.



First is with PTP, you MUST not pay any money until PTP is accepted. If you do and things go wrong in law it is your own fault.



Second, until kocan is handed over the title deed is not yours and the holder of the kocan is still able to do what they wish with the land. Our neighbour has done everything he thought was correct, contract, paid money got PTP but the land owner died and the family said they will not sign over the deeds.



As I have said previously having listened at the Bar Association meeting at the Pia Bella because you think something is wrong does not mean it legally is. The laws here are quite ancient, in fact a document handed out was dated 1959. So any reference to English Law by lawyers etc is old.



We cannot blame the legal system it is people who made the mistakes. Olive Grove, I will stand by their moral rights I hope all the above will turn out and fight.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
31/10/2009 00:56

You sound just like the worthless lawyers at that Pia Bella meeting.

Noeler


Joined: 23/01/2009
Posts: 32

Message Posted:
31/10/2009 01:30

Nareik,



Re: message 75, you have summarised very elegantly the postion of home owners in Olive Grove and probabably elsewhere in many other housing developments in TRNC.

People have invested in good faith in the TRNC over the last number of years. They love the countryside and the people and the way of life. They make a significant contribution to the local economy, and develop a growing loyalty in TRNC. And then they are hit with the backlash of the legal and banking system which exposes them to losing their homes.

All of this may ultimatlely be decided in the Courts in the coming years with signicant costs on all sides. But the Government can play a more proactice role to resolve this.

Homeowners in Olive Grove are resolute. They will fight to protect their homes which they have paid for and they will cooperate with others in similiar situation.



Noeler

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
31/10/2009 07:47

Well said Noeler, the government has to be more proactive and I hope they do so.



Some have expressed fears that banks like Koop who lent money recklessly may go under if the courts do follow the precedence of "constructive notice". Indeed in the case of Koop they actually had direct notice because there seems to be evidence that they actually did look at the sale contracts.

I am no expert in banking but I believe that the Central Bank is notified of any overdue unpaid loans and they consider them as bad debts and thus the solvency of the banks are evaluated accordingly. So it seems that even if the courts decide against these banks, they will remain solvent and not go under. Hence there will not be any pressure on the courts to decide otherwise. I hope so anyway.

ismet

http://www.elkocyprus.com

yorkie58


Joined: 16/09/2008
Posts: 245

Message Posted:
31/10/2009 07:59

Cyprusishome you state

''First is with PTP, you MUST not pay any money until PTP is accepted. If you do and things go wrong in law it is your own fault.'' then ''We cannot blame the legal system it is people who made the mistakes''



Why is it the peoples fault if they follow the legal advice given to them by their solicitors who, in many cases tell their clients that this is the way over here , pay first your PTP and deeds will not be a problem, are they not to trust anyone in the legal profession?

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
31/10/2009 10:06

Yorkie58 (msg. 87),

Don't take it too seriously. This advice was first put forward by the then Interior Minister Özkan Murat. It must have been a tongue in cheek remark because he must have known as well about the impracticability of such an advice. Is there a developer anywhere in the world who will hold a property for you for years without getting a deposit?

ismet

come_on_aylin


Joined: 14/06/2008
Posts: 908

Message Posted:
31/10/2009 10:08

The law can be put aside if it goes against natural justice...

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
31/10/2009 11:00

yorkie,



When we did our research we knew you had to have ptp before handing over cash, that is how the system works and is fully laid out across the internet web sites.



Like everyone else we took the gamble that all would be OK, yes the lawyer and estate agent gave the pep talk that there will be no problems but we were fully aware that there was risk. So if we did not get ptp we could shout at the system but it is still our fault if it went wrong, we made the choice.



I am not happy about the system and agree a lot of work needs doing to modernise it but it has to be remembered that British people who live here make up around 5% of the population and those that regularly go upsetting the other 95% is doing us no favours. Change will happen and maybe we will get our homes eventually.

nareik


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 113

Message Posted:
31/10/2009 13:00

Cyprusishome

I don't accept that I am upsetting 95% of the population. I have many other dealings with the local TCs( car hire, furnishings,supermarkets, bars, hotels, etc.) and have no problems - nor do they have any problems with me. I pay in full, on time. Estate agents, Developers, Banks - these are the people I have issues with. And not all of them. I'm sure a certain percentage are decent businesses. But they certainly don't account for 95% of the population. In many cases the local TC's agree with me that these rogue businesses are tarnishing the name of everyone in the TRNC. And it's up to the Government to do something about it. Change will happen - I am sure of that - but it will only happen if good people (Marian Stokes for example) stand up and say: No, this is wrong!

Nareik

melbrandy


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 44

Message Posted:
31/10/2009 13:57

two random thoughts if i may.

a) banks solvency

All banks have made large loans to developers over the last 18 months. This was because the recession limited other lending opportunities and interest rates for these loans are very high.Some banks have lent more than others, but all pretty heavily. Significant amounts of the banks property loan portfolio are now non performing, i.e. no interest or loan repayments. Some banks, KOOP being one, are now looking to their security (your homes) to repay these loans.The developers have generally received full or partial advances against the houses from you as well as bank loans and are relatively unscathed,you end up paying for their mistakes.

Due your research and dont get caught with deposits in a bank weakened by its local property lending.

melbrandy


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 44

Message Posted:
31/10/2009 14:02

b) House auctions

There has been righteous indignation against the last auction and this proposed one.

However there are many brits who have court cases against developers, a number have recently received judgements and these will in the near term be allowed by the courts to be enforced.

At that stage these brits will be looking to the developers assets for compensation, including any houses registered to him.

That is brits will be pursuing houses that are being lived in by other brits, then its harder to identify the 'bad guy'. Again the developer gets away unscathed.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
31/10/2009 14:33

Melbrandy,

As far as I am concerned, registration gives the owner full protection against any debts owed by the developers. I believe that registration is as good as a mortgage-your rights have priority over others.

ismet

melbrandy


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 44

Message Posted:
31/10/2009 15:05

ismet, a number of developers houses are registered by the brits lawyers, as the assets they will be chasing.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
31/10/2009 16:00

cyprusishome. " it has to be remembered that British people who live here make up around 5% of the population and those that regularly go upsetting the other 95% is doing us no favours. Change will happen and maybe we will get our homes eventually. "



In other words, everyone should keep their mouths shut so that YOU might get YOUR home eventually? Mmmm great strategy.

Mindy



Joined: 27/10/2008
Posts: 1210

Message Posted:
31/10/2009 16:32

We are in the proverbial doo doo I take it , as when we went to register our property, the Tapu office said there was a charge on our development due to the builder taking a bank loan on some other of his sites. We are told it will be sorted soon, that was 20 months ago. Inshallah!!

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
31/10/2009 18:13

Hector there are ways and means. You were obviously at the Pia Bella but did you go to Bellapais and involve yourself in the positive action to stop the auction there. Or the big protest in Lefkosa in the summer.



The auction was stopped by "legal means" and following it the governement became involved and at present it looks like Sun Villas are safe.



Working with Marian and her gang and the processes that are being followed at Olive Grove are positive steps that will bring about change. We are all in the same boat, not necessarily with the same problems and right now I can see a slight chink for us after 4 years all by taking a low profile in our case even though it goes against the grain at times. I know being in organised action is not low profile but if that action helps someone else along the way I am prepared to go on the police files as we all did at Bellapais.

flutterby


Joined: 11/01/2008
Posts: 214

Message Posted:
31/10/2009 18:36

Why can't the bank sell/auction the unsold villas on this development, that seems like the simplest solution.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
31/10/2009 19:09

"People crushed by law, have no hopes but from power. If laws are their enemies, they will be enemies to laws; and those who have much to hope and nothing to lose, will always be dangerous."

Edmund Burke 1777

nilmoney


Joined: 29/12/2008
Posts: 122

Message Posted:
01/11/2009 13:35

reference message 99



According to my information



All the villas have been sold keys issued possession has taken place prior to the morgage being granted.



What makes this even worse is that the KOOP bank had site of all owners contract prior to the morgage being granted. I just can't get my head around this folks.



The KOOP bank has granted a morgage on someone else property/homes they have paid for the concrete/foundations/bricksworks/pipework/electrics/whitegoods/fittings/fixtures/pools/landscaping/trees/marble/Kitchens.



All paid fo, this just cannot be right goods paid for receipts obtained something seriously wrong here. whats going on folks?



How many more are in the same situation and have not been made aware of this I also know some owners are suffering ill health due to the stress of all this so much for the trnc dream.



And what type of person would bid for one of these properties knowing all this.



So come on KOOP bank do the right thing



Unbelievable

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
01/11/2009 13:56

msg 88 says, "This advice (only pay a deposit until you get PTP) was first put forward by the then Interior Minister Özkan Murat. It must have been a tongue in cheek remark because he must have known as well about the impracticability of such an advice."

Don't you just love it when Ministers have a joke - but at whose expense? TCs don't have to go through the PTP process and therefore can put down a deposit and wait until the kocan is ready to be transferred into their name, "foreigners" can't. TCs have a vote but "foreigners" don't so politicians like Murat can afford to make a joke at our expense as he knows it will have no affect on his job.

Mal

rwilson


Joined: 14/04/2008
Posts: 87

Message Posted:
02/11/2009 08:11

Have you see the article in Cyprus Today about Olive Grove? It was on the front page and the heading was Bank "Robbery"



you can read it at http://www.esentepeolivegrove.com and click on cyprus today

nareik


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 113

Message Posted:
02/11/2009 13:11

If this type of activity went on in the UK and was exposed by a national newspaper, there would be hell to pay. Panorama would want an exclusive! Heads would roll!

Lets see what the authotities do about it - if anything!

We wait in hope.

nilmoney


Joined: 29/12/2008
Posts: 122

Message Posted:
02/11/2009 20:28

Read the info Cyprus today posted on the web

Reference KOOP bank which buyers have they been talking too, certainly not the existing owners because they are not buyers they are owners!

Or do they mean potential Auction buyers .

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
02/11/2009 21:22

"Read the info Cyprus today posted on the web"

Where? Do you have a link?

nilmoney


Joined: 29/12/2008
Posts: 122

Message Posted:
02/11/2009 22:36

link http://www.esentepeolivegrove.com its in turkish and english

Noeler


Joined: 23/01/2009
Posts: 32

Message Posted:
02/11/2009 23:53

Elsewhere on the Forum, Ismet has started a thread listing those banks who have allowed developers to take out morgages on sites where houses had already been sold.

This is very helpful - homeowners and their families, ex-patriot as well as Turkish Cypriot, can now make informed choices in relation to the services offered by these institutions.

Sharing of info and cooperation amongst homeowners, and with HBPG, will help achieve a fair and just solution.



Noeler

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
03/11/2009 00:05

Here is the link: http://www.cyprus44.com/forums/25235.asp

ismet

wendy2428


Joined: 24/10/2009
Posts: 7

Message Posted:
03/11/2009 10:53

I go to the supermarket and put in my shopping basket bread, eggs, bananas and then go to the checkout and pay for the goods. If someone snatches the carrier bag from me after I've paid for my groceries they would be stealing my groceries and branded a thief.



Surely this is the same thing that the Koop Bank is doing to the Olive Grove families - stealing from them what they have paid for.

kibrissibel


Joined: 18/02/2008
Posts: 562

Message Posted:
03/11/2009 12:11

Good idea by Ismet to make people aware which banks are involved. I have started a new thread about "Which developers have mortgaged properties/plots that have already been sold to buyers" I think it would be helpful for everybody to be aware of not only the banks, but which developers/builders have carried out this practise and now threaten the life savings of unsuspecting buyers. LInk here: http://www.cyprus44.com/forums/25320.asp

Mandy


Joined: 25/10/2009
Posts: 48

Message Posted:
04/11/2009 00:14

Apparently the folk at Olive Grove are planning an advert every week in the Turkish and English press, asking anyone with savings in KOOP bank to read their web site.



I hope depositors start to pull out - then perhaps the bank will talk to the people they are trying to rob of their homes.



Thats all the Olive Grove folk want, the bank to sit down with them and try to find a solution.

pinkchilli


Joined: 30/11/2008
Posts: 689

Message Posted:
04/11/2009 07:09

With the usual apathy over here, even amongst the TC's, this may have exactly the opposite effect.



Savers may want "their" bank, that holds their savings to make sure that those that borrowed money, pay up, even if it's those that now live in the "security given property" lose out.



However, I wish them luck.

nareik


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 113

Message Posted:
04/11/2009 12:46

Banks are allergic to bad press. All banks. And customers, especially depositors, are very fickle. Just look at the number of posts enquiring about "the best rate". Any sniff that a bank is in trouble (KOOP Bank Robbery) and depositors (especially ex-pats; not too sure about local TCs) get very nervous.

My mother had some money in Northern Rock around the time it started getting into difficulty. The Chancellor came out and guaranteed the deposits. Even with the guarantee, my mother insisted on moving her few bob out - and guess who had to que up for 6 hours?

My point is that any (allegedly) upstanding bank will not want negative advertisements being read by it's customers in the local press. And it may just be the threat of this that brings the bank to it's senses - and is the catalyst to open up discussions/negotiation with the owners.

Good luck to them.

blisanga


Joined: 05/07/2009
Posts: 37

Message Posted:
04/11/2009 13:07

I totally agree. It is such a worrying time for the owners/residents who are living on the site. They must be feeling awful and worrying sick. Let us hope that it is all resolved very soon, for the good!

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
04/11/2009 13:07

Only by clients closing their accounts will such banks get the message that this lending mortgage scam is not such a good idea!

blisanga


Joined: 05/07/2009
Posts: 37

Message Posted:
04/11/2009 13:08

Again I agree!

Noeler


Joined: 23/01/2009
Posts: 32

Message Posted:
04/11/2009 22:40

Nareik,



Re mesaage 114, you're right, no bank wherever they are can ignore bad press.



I know that the Olive Grove residents plan to maintain and step up their publicity campaign.



Maybe the OG residents could add your mother to the campaign team....?



Noeler

nilmoney


Joined: 29/12/2008
Posts: 122

Message Posted:
06/11/2009 19:15

Exactly what i did with B&B they offered prefered shares then went pop following week!

Waiting compensation



drew all money out & closed account





nilmoney

nilmoney


Joined: 29/12/2008
Posts: 122

Message Posted:
07/11/2009 19:18

I was wondering if the koop bank has responded to the request of the owners to speak with them or are they still staying silent and hell bent of going through with forcing the builder to auction off the site. If that is indeed the case

shame on you koop bank shame on you

Buyers beware.



nilmoney

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
07/11/2009 19:34

Why wont the Koop bank sit and discuss the issues raised with the homeowners.!



Because they cannot accept the reality of their deceit!!!!!



Anyone with this bank, should close their account NOW.



A Ntional disgrace!!



wynyardman

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
07/11/2009 22:58

If they did, would that not be acknowledging that the home owners have a point?

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 02:00

Wynyardman



Read Msg 5, not too much to ask for you to read previous points posted!



Richard

Mandy


Joined: 25/10/2009
Posts: 48

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 09:28

UPDATE



In spite of numberous letters to the bank asking for a meeting to discuss our proposals

In spite of our requests to government ministers to ask the bank to meet us

In spite of a front page article in Cyprus Today



The bank STILL refuse to recognise we exist.



They remain hell bent of going through with forcing the auction.



So now we have to contact the international press - we have no other choice.



WHY ARE THE GOVERNMENT ALLOWING THIS TO HAPPEN! WE ONLY WANT TO TALK!!!

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 10:53

Because they're very likely cock relations of the scammers involved!

wendy2428


Joined: 24/10/2009
Posts: 7

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 14:58

MR GULHAN ALP, GENERAL MANAGER OF KOOP BANK



When you sleep soundly in your bed in your own home with your family around you, spare a thought for the Esentepe Olive Grove families you are throwing out of their beds and homes.

kibrissibel


Joined: 18/02/2008
Posts: 562

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 19:11

I believe their objective on many sites with mortgages is for the mortgage comapnies/banks would be to extract extra funds from the current purchasers. It would be easier for them to do this than try and auction and sell houses in the current financial climate and the property problems that go with buying property here. I think they would weigh up how more a current owner would be prepared to pay to keep their property rather than chasing the developer. The banks etc are fully aware that people will not want to risk losing their homes and life savings. They know people have paid for their homes (sometimes in full) have paid for iron work, gardens, pools, furniture etc and will not want to walk away from this. I believe it is morally wrong for a developer to contractually sell property to someone and then to go and mortgage the land it stands on. A promise was made, and then broken, I believe this is fraud.

kibrissibel


Joined: 18/02/2008
Posts: 562

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 19:13

Actions like this will only bring down the economy of the TRNC further, instead of stimulating one of the biggest industries here (the construction industry.) Short-sightedness will NOT allow the TRNC to proper and support itself.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 20:08

What are the so called TRNC 'elected representatives' of the people also known as politicians and MP's doing about this? If this was any other country they would be up in arms at this outrage. There silence is damning.

kaiserphil


Joined: 14/12/2008
Posts: 1096

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 20:23

Hector, the answer is they are doing exactly what any authority in TRNC will do - absolutely nothing. It is simply too much trouble, and as someone said above they are all related to someone.

Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 20:28

Kaiserphil you are sooooooooooooooooo right !!

kaiserphil


Joined: 14/12/2008
Posts: 1096

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 20:42

Pipie, that makes a change, you ask my other half! She is American, I am British - how can I be right?

Quote "So I change my mind a lot! Hey, live with it!".

She is great though, no real complaints!

trickyv


Joined: 09/11/2009
Posts: 1

Message Posted:
09/11/2009 12:29

I've just been on the esentepeolivegrove.com website. I cannot imagine how stressful and heartbreaking it must be for you to have to go through this and my heart goes out to you. Come on Koop Bank, stop playing with people's lives....do the right thing; withdraw your application to have these people's family homes auctioned and open discussions with the families.

warly130


Joined: 09/11/2009
Posts: 1

Message Posted:
09/11/2009 20:37

I cannot believe that this sort of thing is going on in the 21st century - nothing short of financial rape!!

Koop, start Kooperating and open discussions as soon as possible - you will not win - so some recovery is better than nothing without egg on your face.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
09/11/2009 22:47

In any civilised country, wouldn't the judiciary have a 'field day' with all these scum-bag scammers.



Unless all this 'sharp practice' is stamped on hard by the TRNC 'legal' system, which is about as likely as the reunification talks succeeding, the construction sector of the real estate industry will be 'as dead as a Dodo'; there will only be a trickle of naive buyers for resale property and, if it goes against the Orams, it'll be 'Good night, Nurse!' for the whole shady business.

nareik


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 113

Message Posted:
10/11/2009 13:33

I fear for the TRNC.

On another thread, Gordon Brown makes a spelling error on a personal letter and it's a major political embarrassment. The world and it's mother gets involved. Government press releases. Apologies.



In TRNC, a Government Bank fraudulently and recklessly threatens to evict legitimate homeowners who have done nothing wrong. Widespread publicity. And what happens? NOTHING.

Reaction from Bank - nothing. Not even to justify it's actions.

Reaction from Government Ministers - nothing. Couldn't be bothered.

Damage to reputation - huge. TRNC looks like the Banana Republic of Europe.

Will anything change? Not anytime soon - that's for sure, based on this situation.

nilmoney


Joined: 29/12/2008
Posts: 122

Message Posted:
10/11/2009 22:26

Makes you wonder why they have not responded

Probaly think just keep silent and it will all fade away if we open discussions it will get messy



Come on Koop Do the right thing and open discussions just dont go blindly ahead with your "Auction"



Do You think we will go away hand over our keys to our homes,perhaps make up the beds, get some food in, what else do you want? We have paid for everything already oh yes remind me to top up the pool!

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
10/11/2009 22:34

There is a funny law regarding squatters rights once you have the keys to your 'own' property. What a bloody mess!



Richard

wendy2428


Joined: 24/10/2009
Posts: 7

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 12:05

KOOP BANK you KNEW that the Olive Grove homes had ALREADY BEEN SOLD to individuals (not just ex-pats, but TC and Turkish also) and STILL you lent money to the developer. Where is the good business sense in that? It's just asking for trouble. Do you expect the Olive Grove families to just walk away and chalk it down to a bad experience?



KOOP BANK you have to take responsibility for your decision to lend the money and be reasonable in trying to find an equitable solution. Not too much to ask in my opinion.

sporty


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 685

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 12:22

Go higher if you can,try to get a letter to Mehmet ali talat,dervis eroglu,the finance minister or foreign minister from turkey,its worth a try! All these people i believe are honourable men that hold these positions and one word or letter from them put in the right direction could be your answer! Its a long shot i know but worth a try imho,sorry to hear of your situation and good luck to you all on that site.

blisanga


Joined: 05/07/2009
Posts: 37

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 12:51

Thank you, we all need your support. There has been a lot of hard work put into trying to sort this out amicably before this threat. All help is greatly appreciated.

nareik


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 113

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 15:55

Message 138.



Brinsley,

I had heard that the "law" in TRNC was similar to the UK in that "possession is 9/10th of the law".

I wonder if this is the case in reality. If it was, then surely the KOOP Bank would be in an extremely difficult situation. Although they have a court judgement, they wouldn't be able to evict. They would have to negotiate - which is what the owners are looking for in the first instance. So why don't they?



"What a bloody mess" is an apt description!

Nareik.

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 17:33

Msg 140



I question your observation of 'honourable men'!



Msg 142



Could it be that the land reverts to the bank but not the property sitting on it? I'm not sure on this point but the bank cannot be that stupid (highly likely here) so the purchasers bought and own the villa but not the land it sits on!



Richard

Mandy


Joined: 25/10/2009
Posts: 48

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 21:02

Just for information everyone.



A dossier explaining the situation was hand delivered to the secretary of all the government ministers.



A letter from our Advocate pleading for the goverment to help pressurise the bank to open talks was hand delivered to the Prime Minister.



A letter was sent by our advocate to the bank explaining that the situation is making people sick with worry.



And the result of all this effort was - no response.



The TRNC goverment know, but they do not seem to care enough to ask the bank to talk to us.



We have solutions to propose that would mean the bank would get all their money back. But still they will not talk to us.



Which means we are being forced to go to the foreign media and start a legal action against the bank - so instead of us giving the money to the bank - we give it to advocates instead.... It all makes me so sad. I love Cyprus.



I was delighted when the new government took over, I thought they would help. I'm so disappointed

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 21:10

I am so sorry for all the distress that you are being caused. it is clear to any right minded person that the bank are at fault.



Their actions are unconscionable. Keep fighting. We wish you well.



wynyardman

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 21:12

PM? What PM? When I asked him a question he replied," Yes you can", walked away getting his Interior Minister to talk to me who in turn walked away not knowing which Constitution I was referring too! Not fit for purpose!



Richard

nilmoney


Joined: 29/12/2008
Posts: 122

Message Posted:
12/11/2009 00:12

Hang on in there mandy, right is on the O.G. owners side and they are determined characters not prepared to see there homes taken and life savings going down the drain without a fight.



As you say people have fallen ill over this which makes us more determine

nareik


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 113

Message Posted:
12/11/2009 14:27

When push comes to shove, people will stand up and be counted. The support for Olive Grove Residents on this forum has been fantastic. But still KOOP Bank does nothing.

But if they do try to enforce their judgement, it is then that the real support of Cyprus44 members and other owners in similar predicaments will be harnessed against the bank and it's cohorts. Similar to the Sun Villas owners. And any auction will be peacefully disrupted by supportive protestors and prospective purchasers (asset strippers) will be left in no doubt what an ugly situation they are being asked to buy into.



Would any purchaser in their right mind want to get involved in a situation like that?



I don't think so.