The Oram's Case.................

nurseawful



Joined: 06/02/2009
Posts: 5934

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 07:39

Is it today or tomorrow that the Orams are back in court??

cooper


Joined: 23/10/2007
Posts: 3386

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 07:41

Today and tomorrow i beleive.

nurseawful



Joined: 06/02/2009
Posts: 5934

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 07:43

Thanks for that Cooper I am sure someone will post as soon as there has been a ruling on the case.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 08:43

Chris I beleive its the 12th. We will all wait with baited breath.i wish them all the luck in the world xx

Teresa


Joined: 21/11/2007
Posts: 1018

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 08:52

The case starts today and is expected to last 2 days, Embargoed are mounting a vigil outside the court in support of the Orams.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 08:53

It is to be fervently hoped that the UK court decision will not demonstrate the same travesty of justice as evidenced by the ECHR ruling.

smithy


Joined: 17/07/2008
Posts: 5301

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 09:03

I hope to god it all goes their way, fingers crossed and good luck

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 09:15

Sadly within the UK under Gordon Brown - Anything can happen

I wish them well - it should never have got this far in the first place.

Good Luck Orams

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 09:22

Yes....Good luck to the Orams. I am certain all our felicitations are with them at this difficult time. Let us only hope that the court has a lucid moment,and the judges are not as senescent as the ones at the ECJ !

Hatty


Joined: 13/07/2008
Posts: 260

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 11:02

The case does not appear to be on the daily court listing for the 11th so I assume it must start on the 12th



http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/cause.htm

sporty


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 685

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 11:05

Its not just good luck to the Orams,its good luck to everybody that owns a place in Nc and also has assets in the UK. I'm sure it'll go their way due to the public policy bit,i would have thought it would be discussed on programmes like "breakfast"in the UK,but nothing yet!

teacher3


Joined: 08/05/2009
Posts: 5

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 11:17

I HOPE FOR THE BEST - BUT EXPECT THE COURT TO RUBBER STAMP THE EUROPEAN COURT DECISION.

Birdsong


Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 43

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 11:31

The Orams case will begin tomorrow, 12 November, at 10.30a.m. because the previous court case overran its time.

There will be 3 new judges and it will run for 2 days.

We all wish them the best of luck and justice at last.

horse


Joined: 25/03/2009
Posts: 35

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 11:43

Good luck we are all keeping our fingers crossed for you .

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 11:50

As 'sporty' has pointed out, this will be a landmark decision that will affect all British expat. buyers of, so called, 'Ech' property still holding assets in the UK; also the TRNC real estate and construction sector, which, except for Turkish government 'handouts', is the mainstay of the economy - the paltry revenue from tourism being 'hardly a pee in the bucket'.



'teacher3's' prediction may well be right, in view of the fact the court is also likely to corroborate with ECHR, whom were, in turn, guided by UN resolutions on Cyprus.



On the other hand, Britain and Europe would be very unwise to further alienate Turkey at this juncture.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 12:47

Dear Tenakoutou



re msg 15



I believe you mean the ECJ - European Court of Justice.. The European Court of Human Rights ruled that GCs could apply to Turkey's 'local remedy' - IPC - 'Immovable Property Commission.'



IMHO, A ruling on the continued legitimacy of THAT body is far more important ( long-term) that any ruling of later this week, in the UK

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 13:19

I agree with teacher3 (msg. 12). After the Ercan judgement I do not expect anything different. However the property prices in TRNC are rock bottom and therefore I do not expect it to sink any more.

My daughter was telling me that there is a significant increase in Norvegian and Russian customers ordering furniture for their new villas. so the potential for sales is already shifting to non-EU countries.

ismet

Blackie


Joined: 20/12/2007
Posts: 129

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 15:00

The two day hearing should I think be seen as a positive thing. If the court was going to rubber stamp the ECJ ruling only half a day would be allocated. Our best home is that the court sees the Imovable property commission as the first step in the process rather than a court in Southern Cyprus. There are some signs that the British Government is aware that the Orams losing would not only be a bad thing for ex pats but also for the peace process, they will however not interfere with the due process of the law. The lesson should be well learnt by now there is no compromise in the Greek side.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 15:22

Dear Blackie,



What 'compromise' would you expect from someone made homeless and watching THEIR land being 'sold on' for profit ?

Blackie


Joined: 20/12/2007
Posts: 129

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 15:27

Tragically this senario has happened on numerous occasions throughout history and a compromise has had to be made, unfortunately people do get displaced due to conflicts, the American Indians are not getting New York back any time soon. The plus point and almost unique point of the situation in Cyprus is that they will eventually get compensation and in some cases for those that wish it restitution.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 15:30

Dear Ismet



re msg 17- I presume you mean the ECJ judgement ..?



I wouldn't get too excited by the prospect of Russians coming to the rescue...



1/ They have a recession, too



2/ They need to change planes at least once, even twice to get from their cities via Istanbul



3/ Most Russians ( rightly or wrongly ) have a [ racist ] viewpoint that a Muslim country is 'OK' for a holiday, but not to live in..



As ever, the best hope is for a solution, and *I* think that will mean existing freehold 'deeds becoming leasehold - at the VERY least..



The Cypriot way of dealing with 'issues' regarding property deeds and complaints re build quality / contractual disagreements isn't likely to 'help' a flat market..



Ironically, the best hope would be disgruntled Europeans( with no significant EU assets) selling up - lock , stock , and barrel - from the 'south' ...

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 16:28

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm



How does a Secular State suddenly become a Muslim Country? News to me!



Richard

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 16:40

msg 19. mmmmmm.....give it a rest. The island our parents are from sums it all up.



Partition the country and let both sides get on with their lives. simple.

apples


Joined: 10/11/2009
Posts: 43

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 17:54

Good luck, everyone in North Cyprus is keeping their fingers crossed for Linda & David

notthereyet


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 113

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 18:30

I have a friend that works in a estate agent in Hurghada (place where a lot of Muslims are)who informs me that 80% of new sales are to Russians. Perhaps they are only buying from Christians and have forgotten there is a recession in the Motherland or maybe the oracle on all matters global doesnt know everything and maybe some Russians are actually investing in the TRNC maybe?? and again maybe this was another attempt of mmmmmmmm to snuff out any hope or happiness to anyone worried about things and the way ahead. Good luck to everyone

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 21:57

It would appear the most popular holiday home destination for Russians is Bulgaria. I know that the TRNC is desperately trying to tap into this market but are having very limited success.



Many Russians were stung in the South with the title deed fiasco. This generated lots of bad publicity and when buyers explored buying holiday homes in the North they discovered a similar legal system and problems also relating to the granting of title deeds.



It did not help the situation when a Russian was arrested at Larnaca Airport and detained for the "illegal" purchase of GC property.



This is not going to be the lucrative market many hope for. I have spoken to a few looking for holiday homes on other forums and unfortunately(for those of us that are trying to sell) they are well aware of the TRNC 's track record.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 22:43

mmmmmm



i sometimes wonder how your thinking unfolds.



well never mind about the russians ,the iranians are now buying .



musin



long live the kktc

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 22:47

Musim thats a fact our Iranian friend has bought 3 homes and a plot of land here and by the way two south side xx what do they know that we dont maybe titanium xxx

andy-f


Joined: 03/05/2009
Posts: 1256

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 23:17

perhaps iranians who are rich are buying to get out of iran before the yanks nuke it!

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 23:48

mark 6xm points out "how little I know about the gc's"

I can reply I am possibly "guilty as charged", not being particularly interested in them



but this is a north cyprus forum not really a platform for the greek cypriot viewpoint

...and here we come to the nub of the "problem":



it is at the least self-deception and at worst a cynical masquerade

to pretend that all parties to this dispute can be rolled up in an apparent catch-all compromise

when their real attitudes are so uncompromising



nope, even if your interest in cyprus extends only to hobby, tourism, business or property

let alone friends and ethnic ties, you are never impartial in your heart of hearts



you can puff ingenious alternative "scenarios" as certain ex-pats on the forum are frantic to do,

for reasons that quite escape me, despite the butt-end talks grinding on into stalemate,

while the "scenario" on offer in the real world is a widening gulf between the players



sad isn't it? but not hopeless

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 23:59

Perhaps there should be a Cypriot solution to a Cypriot problem. No idea what that is mind you.



Perhaps there could be a Cypriot shrug standoff at the border, both sides trying to out shrug each other?



Might even break out a smile.

horse


Joined: 25/03/2009
Posts: 35

Message Posted:
12/11/2009 01:22

If we had a %10 of maf money in russia and turkey there would not be any problems with the orams or us keeping our props in trnc we would just buy everyone of ,they are not buying here, if that is true, unless they have both sides covered ,they dont waste money they know something we dont know for sure.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
12/11/2009 07:10

mmmm: 'Ironically, the best hope would be disgruntled Europeans( with no significant EU assets) selling up - lock , stock , and barrel - from the 'south' ....'



Sell to whom?



And knowingly buy in TRNC?



'Out of the frying pan - into the fire!'



Good to see you're back again, mmmmmm - please note the 'you're' - not 'your'!

Lapta.tel


Joined: 22/08/2009
Posts: 67

Message Posted:
12/11/2009 08:34

This is a political issue and that is how it should be dealt with

cyprusairsoft



Joined: 22/06/2009
Posts: 2066

Message Posted:
12/11/2009 09:05

mmmmm russians are here in droves believe me i just mat a few last week and they are all trying to offload money

in the trnc so i guess they are gangsters or whatever you want to call them.



perhaps looking for ways to launder the money into legitimate construction.



what do you think?

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
12/11/2009 09:13

If the Russian property buyers get turned over by developers they won't lie down like the Brits and look for legal remedies, they shoot to kill, mark my words!



Richard

kibrissibel


Joined: 18/02/2008
Posts: 562

Message Posted:
12/11/2009 11:48

Good luck to the Orams. Is this being publicised in UK?

Aga Buyers A G


Joined: 04/10/2007
Posts: 488

Message Posted:
12/11/2009 12:42

COURT 75

Before LORD JUSTICE WARD

LORD JUSTICE ETHERTON and

LORD JUSTICE SULLIVAN

Thursday, 12th November, 2009

At half-past 10

APPEAL

From The Queen's Bench Division

(Administrative Court and Divisional Court)

FINAL DECISIONS

C1/2009/0368 The Queen on the application of Rastrum Limited -v- Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government AND ANOR. Appeal of Defendant from the order of Sir George Newman, dated 4th February 2009, filed 25th February 2009. Part Heard.

Aga Buyers A G


Joined: 04/10/2007
Posts: 488

Message Posted:
12/11/2009 12:43

whoops wrong one above lolololol



COURT 63

Before LORD JUSTICE PILL

LORD JUSTICE LLOYD and

SIR PAUL KENNEDY

Thursday, 12th November, 2009

At half-past 10

APPLICATION

A2/2006/2114(B) Orams & Anr -v- Apostolides. Application of Appellant for permission to amend which includes an application for permission to cross appeal.

APPEAL

From The Queen's Bench Division

FINAL DECISIONS

A2/2006/2114 Orams & Anr -v- Apostolides. Appeal of Respondent from the order of Mr Justice Jack, dated 6th September 2006, filed 3rd October 2006.

Traveller0392


Joined: 21/03/2008
Posts: 186

Message Posted:
12/11/2009 14:29

Hi Kibrissibel,



Nothing at all here in the News.. and that goes for the local comic, the London Evening Standard, which has everything before the BBC news....



Will let you know if I hear anything ..... what's your verdict?

kibrissibel


Joined: 18/02/2008
Posts: 562

Message Posted:
12/11/2009 16:43

Thanks Traveller. Your guess is as good as mine. If they lose it will open up a storm, both personally for people and politically. The UK could throw it out under the public policy criteria. I hope they are brave enough to do that and recognize the biased descision of the ECHR by a biased Greek Judge who is married to a Greek Cypriot! How that has been ignored is beyond me.

frontalman



Joined: 28/02/2008
Posts: 499

Message Posted:
12/11/2009 17:09

With negotiations going on now between the two leaders regarding the property issue, I don't see how any decision of this court can be deemed as fair if everyone else in the same situation sees a different outcome later on. Brown has offered up half of the British bases land to a united Cyprus, maybe this could be divvied up to appease the so-called refugees.

waddo


Joined: 29/11/2008
Posts: 1966

Message Posted:
12/11/2009 17:45

Frontalman, Good Idea - but it won't work as the GC's will claim that the land was their's before it became British and then want back rent for all the years they could not use it! But then - as the Brits got it from the Turks to start with maybe it should be Turkish land returned to them!!!!



Whatever happens there will be yet another fight over the handed back land.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
12/11/2009 22:59

Waddo,

I am afraid you are wrong. UK offered to hand back half only if both sides agree knowing full well that it is impossible. So the bases are as safe as ever.

ismet

taraspring


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 571

Message Posted:
12/11/2009 23:04

Don't the Brits still owe rent to an "absent landlord" on this land? ie the Ottoman Empire.....