The VERY latest on Orams case

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
14/11/2009 00:59

In a nutshell, report from London is 'today nothing happened and no indicationof when verdict will be given.'(straight from mouth of Linda Orams)



So, we have to all wait! Again!

daisy dukes


Joined: 06/09/2008
Posts: 3815

Message Posted:
14/11/2009 01:05

Already been covered MarieB http://www.cyprus44.com/forums/26039.asp



DD

Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
14/11/2009 09:27

Thanks MarieB .



Send them our support and regards and ask them if they would ever consider posting on here .

Earlybird


Joined: 28/04/2009
Posts: 816

Message Posted:
14/11/2009 09:50

Thanks MarieB, much appreciated, we know there are other threads but I for one appreciate your effort and the efforts of Malsancak who has kept us up to date!

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
14/11/2009 18:15

Its good that you know Linda as a friend, as then we will get the proper news, met them last year, seemed up beat about the situation then, keep us informed please MarieB, as we read so much in the papers etc and only half is correct. .....

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
14/11/2009 18:51

Marion

Thanks for your postings re the Orams. I for one value your continued input to this board.

AJ

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
14/11/2009 19:55

Thanks Marion. It's really appreciated.

cooper


Joined: 23/10/2007
Posts: 3386

Message Posted:
14/11/2009 19:59

Yes thanks Marion, much appreciated.

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
14/11/2009 20:26

Thanks for the thanks. One of the reasons I write is because I agree that much that gets written is a slight exaggeration, if not plain downright untrue. David Haye suffers from the same, and as his wife said 'If we believed everything we read about ourselves we would go barmy" (or words to that effect) Same with Linda and David.

As to their contributing, I am sure they might, but of course up to now they had to be VERY careful as to what they said because of the case pending. There are other people here who have property cases pending, so I know they would understand. One cannot say anything that might jeapardise a good outcome.

One final point which I find interesting. Ihad it on good report that the Public Gallery at the Courts was packed with Greek Cypriots, and very little Turkish Cypriots or Brits. Shame that, because I am sure Linda an David might have felt their stance was appreciated. I would have found it intimidating to have only Greeks in the Gallery.

everon


Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 956

Message Posted:
14/11/2009 20:30

oh my heart goes out to them, they are so brave, that can't have been easy, how intimidating for them

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
14/11/2009 20:32

Ran out of space before I could add my thanks to my neighbour Mal for all the info he has got from his 'spies' in London. We all need to know the truth so that we can sleep at night.

As to Linda, she has definitely found her way through to being philosophical, realising that getting stressed cannot change any outcome. Same goes for all of us, I guess.

I will certainly pass on your regards, and as soon as I hear anything worth reporting from her, I will share it. But one thing is for sure, she REALLY appreciates the support of you guys!

natalie


Joined: 03/05/2009
Posts: 323

Message Posted:
14/11/2009 21:37

I guess I talk for many, but I understand the waiting must be hell on earth for them. Please convey our love and support.

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
15/11/2009 17:29

The verylatest from Linda is given below. She is so thankful to all of you for being there for them in spirit and mind, but it is now time to switch off. She says:

PRESS STATEMENT

We were overwhelmed by goodwill messages we received before and during the court hearing which have given us great strength.

We had two very long days in the court, listening to many legal arguments.

We now have to wait and see what the three judges decide and they have given no indication as to when they will make their decision.



We appreciate the concern of everyone in the TRNC. However, we have seen a lot of misinformed speculation and rumours on the Internet Forums and would like to stress that we will be making no statements until after we receive the judgment.



(so thatis it for now. Linda further says she is sorry they can't write for the board, and she and David have been advised to say nothing more at all. So, please everyone out there, if you read anything, then it is pure speculation.

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
15/11/2009 17:32

sorry, ran out of space again:

I was tryng to say ....... then it is pure speculation. Doesn't matter where you read it - newspapers, on this board or anywhere, it will NOT have come from the Orams. This land of Chinese Whispers can do a lot of harm. And you will see that no one has any idea as towhen the judgment will be given.



So the Orams are now picking up their lives with family and friends, and that is all any of us can do.Linda and David deserve a break, physically and mentally.



By the way, the blue high heeled suede boots only lasted a day. Thought the fashion conscious ladies out there would like to know!



And I did pass on all the good wishes to the Orams - indiv idually.

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
15/11/2009 18:52

Even though David and Linda now want to put the subject in a box, padlock it and shove it in a corner I would love to know what people think and feel if they have followed the press/media on this one. How do you think the judges will decide (mind you, if the Orams don't know, no one will!) but who has what gut feelings.

everon


Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 956

Message Posted:
15/11/2009 18:57

I just feel sick thinking about it, I wish it was all over for them, done and dusted and they can live happily ever after, fingers crossed (and toes) x

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
15/11/2009 19:12

they should borrow as much money as possible on their property and any other assets in the uk



put all the monies in another country ,leaving sweet FA for the greek .



having said that ,they have nothing to worry about the case,it will go their way.



musin



long live the kktc

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
15/11/2009 19:18

Musin

How are you my friend?

Your thoughts are mine exactly.

Take care

AJ

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
15/11/2009 19:22

Marie



Personally, I think that the judges have reserved their judgement and will give a judgement in a few months when they see how the talks are progressing as the two sides are currently discussing the property issues, the courts and the UK govt are probably going to sit on the fence for a while and see how they progress in the meantime the judgement will be being prepared by Legal eagles and MP's, my opinion for what it is worth is as there is an ongoing political situation in Cyprus and Property is one of the major issues in this, the UK courts will either decline to move from the original UK judgement or decline to make a judgement as it really is not in the public interest to do so.





Time will tell but I think that the whole case is so political that the UK courts are not acting without guidance from the government on this one, David & Linda will come out of this a little battle weary but not beaten.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
15/11/2009 19:25

Good advice perhaps they should consider that xx Marie I hope and pray it will soon be over for them.

kibrissibel


Joined: 18/02/2008
Posts: 562

Message Posted:
15/11/2009 19:37

Me too. The stress of this must be unbelievable. What a shame that not many Brits of TC's turned up to support them. The usual pathetic apathy again? I wonder how many TC's have homes in both UK and TRNC that this will affect?

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
15/11/2009 20:32

aj



how are you mate ,i,m good thanks.



the saints



which talks are you referring ,i wasn,t aware there was one ,oh them talks.



musin



long live the kktc

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
15/11/2009 20:40

Thanks to all of you for the comments so far. I am inclined to agree that the judgement will wait until 'the talks' are over. And yes, the whole thing is politics. Property is a secondary issue, I think. For the Orams it has been tough, but they really do seem to have adopted a very philosophical attitude. Of course what happens at the end is another matter.

Let's hope that the optimism of the many is well placed. And yes, if only apathy couldbe wiped out, we might bebetter off.



Al;l comments certainly make me feel better - hope it does others who are living in former GC property. At least our former owner was not a Mr A;postolides - sol that is something to be grateful for.

AlexF065


Joined: 07/09/2009
Posts: 271

Message Posted:
16/11/2009 03:54

Sad to say its the Vultures (lawyers) that will have the majority of Mr and Mrs Orams assets if the case is lost

But I wonder how the greek is going to pay the Orams court and legal cost when they win????

Stewart


Joined: 19/07/2008
Posts: 1107

Message Posted:
16/11/2009 11:58

At least we know it is not a straight forward judgement, one way or the other.



Could go either way....perhaps it may give both sides a chance to compromise ?



Will the case continue if peace talks work out?......who will foot the legal bills?



What will happen if Turkey and NC decide to go it alone



Wots your thoughts

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
16/11/2009 23:06

A couple of quick comments:



1. Who pays for the Greek? It is reputed that he has a HUGE financial backer, but is probably not expecting to pay.

2. What will happen if Turkey and NC decide to go it alone? I have asked that question to several people who could know the answer, buyt no one seems to want to comment. 'That will never happen' they say, whichis a bit of an 'ostrich' reply.

3. Compromise. I think it would be good if it is said 'The ECJ ruling MUST be enforced, and the compensation is £200 being the value of the land at the time.' Trouble is then that the Orams will be faced with costs!

4. Will the cast continue if peace talks work out? Good question, but a hypthetical one to which there cannot be an answer at this stage. (What do YOU think?)

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
17/11/2009 01:11

A couple of quick comments:



1. Who pays for the Greek? It is reputed that he has a HUGE financial backer, but is probably not expecting to pay.

2. What will happen if Turkey and NC decide to go it alone? I have asked that question to several people who could know the answer, buyt no one seems to want to comment. 'That will never happen' they say, whichis a bit of an 'ostrich' reply.

3. Compromise. I think it would be good if it is said 'The ECJ ruling MUST be enforced, and the compensation is £200 being the value of the land at the time.' Trouble is then that the Orams will be faced with costs!

4. Will the cast continue if peace talks work out? Good question, but a hypthetical one to which there cannot be an answer at this stage. (What do YOU think?)

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
17/11/2009 01:21

Dear MarieB



>>1. Who pays for the Greek? It is reputed that he has a HUGE financial backer, but is probably not expecting to pay. <<



I presume you mean the Cypriot whose speaks a dialect of Greek...he is a CYPRIOT.. and I KEEP reminding posters that Apostolides was SCREAMING for help ( from the then 'Liealotopoulos' regime ) in the papers - three years ago.. the 'rump' RoC was at pains to point out they couldn't be seen to help...



Now if it turns out otherwise...



>>2. What will happen if Turkey and NC decide to go it alone? I have asked that question to several people who could know the answer, buyt no one seems to want to comment. 'That will never happen' they say, whichis a bit of an 'ostrich' reply. <<



They already DID try.. that's part of the continuing mess..



cont ..

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
17/11/2009 01:26

Dear MarieB



>>3. Compromise. I think it would be good if it is said 'The ECJ ruling MUST be enforced, and the compensation is £200 being the value of the land at the time.' Trouble is then that the Orams will be faced with costs! <<



I don't think the true owner would view that as 'compromise'..



>>4. Will the cast continue if peace talks work out? Good question, but a hypthetical one to which there cannot be an answer at this stage. (What do YOU think?)<<



You mean the case? .. I think the Courts in ENG/Wales hoped the talks would bring about a 'let-off '... *I* Think they would LOVE to bring in the ECHR and TR's IPC.. into the equation...

Praxandros


Joined: 09/06/2009
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
17/11/2009 22:11

First of all, Mr. "mmmmmm," the ECtHR has yet to endorse the so called IPC. It may do so after the hearing of the 8 pilot cases, which begins tomorrow, only if the Turkish side proves that the "IPC" constitutes an effective local remedy under Turkey's (not "TRNC's") legal system. The only thing the ECtHR has done so far, in relation to the "IPC," is that it noted its existence in the Demadis case, and that the Tymbios case was withdrawn by the applicant because he had entered into an "agreement" with it. The ECtHR will endorse the "IPC," only if Turkey proves that it has the complete control and ownership of this committee, but also if the remedies it ("IPC") provides are in line with the existing ECtHR remedies in the already ruled cases of Loizidou, Aresti, etc. So far, in all cases in which the "IPC" has dealt with and "closed" -some 80 one as they claim, none of them is in line with ECtHR rulings. The "IPC" does not always provide return of property -set aside a complete one,

Praxandros


Joined: 09/06/2009
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
17/11/2009 22:13

Cont....

nor the amounts of compensation for the loss of use and accesses during the past years are anywhere near the amounts the ECtHR accepted as reasonable in the ruled cases.



Now, as far as using the possible endorsement of the "IPC" by the ECtHR, as an argument or excuse by the British High Court so as not to register the Apostolides v. Orams case, such an idea is out of question. The two issues have nothing to do with each other. In fact, the ECJ verdict in the Apostolides v. Orams case, as it was drafted, will most likely push the ECtHR to make some very serious second thoughts in the possibility of endorsing the "IPC." The reason is due to the fact that accepting the authority of an entity ("IPC") to make decisions regarding property rights situated within the De Jure sovereign territory of one nation-state (RoC,) without this entity ("IPC") being established under its own legal system, but instead under the legal system of another nation-state or entity (Turkey or

Praxandros


Joined: 09/06/2009
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
17/11/2009 22:16

Cont...



...or "TRNC;") such a notion seriously undermines the sovereignty of this nation-state (RoC,) and contradicts existing international law.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
17/11/2009 22:22

Marie B,

How many more words have you got left to type,

Paul.

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
17/11/2009 22:40

Hi there Paul. I am sure the rest of the B.B. are not in the least interested in my nocturnal computer tappings, but for those who are interested, I am now going to watch Oliver Twist, before doing another 500 and then going to bed. Tomorrow morning is a TV slot with Fevzi and Ipek from Embargoed! who are over here to drum up support. They played a huge part in supporting the Orams, and now they are here to drum up support. So, to anyone reading this - sign up. See http://www.embargoed.org and if you feel you want to add your name then just think what you MIGHT be able to do for equality . Every extra voice counts.

There now -hopefully answered your question Paul, and done a bit of a shake up for the future of this troubled spot.

Oh then, tomorrow some time I have another 1,200 words for another publication where my name is truly Marie B.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
17/11/2009 23:00

Night,night Marie B,

pAUL.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
18/11/2009 10:37

Dear Mr Praxandros



re 30-2



Thank you for your reasoned explanation of how the ECHR might rule on the IPCs and how you feel the ECJ ruling *might* effect the ECHR decision re the fairness/ effectiveness of the local remedy.



Don't you think that GCs put a noose around their necks by staying away in droves ( Govt advice) rather than pouring in and 'testing out ' the IPC?



There haven't been ANY rulings on cases where a GC owned property has been returned, while it is occupied.



This isn't going to make things easy for the ECHR... GCs can't pick and choose the rulings they like... I fear this lack of usage may 'backfire'... that the IPC might get a prolonged lease of life.



Personally, I don't think TR could / would have been able to cope with the type of awards the ECHR were making... how will we ever know?



For SURE, the ruling of the ECJ and those of the ECHR are at odds... the former is purely legal and the latter reflecting the de facto situation.