Esdeger Title Deeds - exchanged for what?

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
15/11/2009 11:56

"TRNC title deeds can apparently be categorized as either Exchange (Esdeger) or points based (TMD). According to many estate agents in the north, Esedger Title (exchange title) is land originally owned by a Greek Cypriot prior to 1974, with title deeds issued by the north Cyprus government post 1974 to a Turkish Cypriot refugee from the south on a points basis in compensation for land left in the south."

Read more about an interesting speculation concerning the Orams' title deeds on http://www.northcyprusfreepress.com

professoregit


Joined: 30/08/2008
Posts: 381

Message Posted:
15/11/2009 12:21

Actually the term Esdeger means "equivalent" and not exchange as most people especially estate agents and ex-pats refer to. The way it was explained to me was that those who owned properties in the south and had to leave were given points on the basis of what they had left behind, thus enabling them to re-establish themselves in the North with similar holdings.

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
15/11/2009 13:19

aaah, so do they keep the title to their property in the south then or was this property, as rumour suggests, given over "in exchange"?

professoregit


Joined: 30/08/2008
Posts: 381

Message Posted:
15/11/2009 13:44

Assume some proof was required such as original title deeds which were then physically handed over to the Government in "exchange" for an "equivalent" (Esdeger) plot in the North. Think the term "exchange" is also

something which has evolved from past negotiations, al la Annan, which envisaged a final rubber stamping of

Esdeger title deeds in exchange for previously owned properties in the South. Thats solely my view on this.

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
15/11/2009 14:20

It's difficult isn't it? Because the mechanics of Esdeger is kept secret all we have is our guesses. That's what we bought into.

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
15/11/2009 16:15

Correct me if I am wrong, but when a TC was given Esdeger land, did he not have to hand the title deeds for his property in the South to the TRNC government ?? If so, then the TRNC government holds deeds to a significant swathe of land in the South.



Paul

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
15/11/2009 16:22

fiendishpaul, what a fiendish thought! Trouble is, according to the south Cyprus land registry, the deeds are still in the names of those TCs. However, maybe the government of the time were as fiendishly sharp as you are and arranged for contracts to be drawn up which would be valid and could be used to complete the land registry transaction at a later date.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
15/11/2009 16:49

An exchange only occurs if both parties are willing. In law I can't make you exchange something with me, if I want to, but you don't. There in lies the problem. The TRNC exchanged peoples properties without their agreement. Therefore no legal exchange has taken place.



Correction, it is legal in the TRNC but not in the rest of the world, hence the recent large payouts for GC's recently and of course the Orams case.



Now what would be interesting to know is, those GC's that have recently accepted compensation for loss of their property via the Immovable Property Commission, exactly where was their land? Many Brits could be occupying this compensated land or legally agreed exchanged land and need not worry about the safety and legality of their purchase. Is there any way of finding out this information?

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
15/11/2009 17:14

the point of the article was that maybe some ex-pats would prefer the TC's land in the south rather than the GC land the TC was given and which the ex-pat bought. Under international law the exchange is illegal and if the Orams case resulted in other ex-pats being pursued by GCs maybe for some this would be a better deal. The TC can have the GC land back (safe from being sued by GCs), and as they've already been paid surely they won't object to the ex-pat having the land in the south - which the TC could sell to non-EU citizens if they wanted. If the government really are holding on to that land then surely the government would see this as a fair way of compensating ex-pats for their potential loss resulting from a failed Orams case.

sporty


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 685

Message Posted:
15/11/2009 17:30

it would also be interesting if the tc land that larnaca airport is on was sold to the orams or another brit/eu citizen that was legally minded to take action for return of it?,or any of the tc land in the south sold to a brit/uk citizen,why doesnt a uk/eu citizen set up a company in the south and deal with all the tc land via the TRNC gov that holds all these so called exchange deeds,why dont the TRNC change all their property deeds to long leasehold with them being the holder?someone somewhere will sooner or later have to start thinking "outside the box".I dont know what the answer is,i'm of the opinion that the gcs that own land,should be compensated for land they lost in the north but it should be done fairly!

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
15/11/2009 17:41

Sporty, that's what I was thinking too but I bet the TC that owns it wouldn't be thinking that way. But then he might have exchanged it?

Apparently GCs can sue you for living in the property as well as owning it.

sporty


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 685

Message Posted:
15/11/2009 18:07

The more you read into it,the more you realise what mess it all is,i sincerely hope they can sort it out but it'll be nothing short of a miracle if they can achieve it!

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
15/11/2009 18:26

I even believe that the Orams case will end up with a confusing verdict which will leave us none the wiser.

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
15/11/2009 18:34

Msg 13



I agree the courts have not released the verdict yet as there are probably a few politicians and lawyers trying to decide how to make it look as though justice has been done without actually doing anything.



Mike

professoregit


Joined: 30/08/2008
Posts: 381

Message Posted:
15/11/2009 18:38

I think at worse there will be agreement on the biilateral exchange of properties. Additional compensation from current ownership is not realistic and will not happen. The Bo++++ks continuously uttered by the Mother of all M's about leasehold and compensation, is another red herring and is unworkable. The Orams may not

win their case but it is not financially feasable for every "southside refugee" to take similar action. If the worse really did happen, don't forget, we all have recourse through the courts. Those who have TRNC title deeds will take legal action against the powers that be (past and current). As mentioned in post 2, we were convinced by Government, their agents (lawyers) and estate agents that Exchange land (Esdeger) was safe. Keep the faith please....

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
15/11/2009 19:17

I'm not sure of this at the moment but there is an argument that the foundation of the TRNC's Immovable Property Commission (IPC) means that the route Apostilides took may no longer be relevant and that GCs should now use the IPC to sort out such problems. It is the IPC which has paid about £37m in compensation so far. See http://www.kuzeykibristmk.org/english/index.html

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
15/11/2009 19:29

msg 16



I think I stated this nearly a year ago which is why I have never worried about my decision to purchase in the TRNC, knock on your door, this is my house I want it back, show me documented proof, thank you I can see that you have a document, please by all means go to the IPC and I will stand by any decision they make. Thank you, would you like a cuppa or an effes before you leave to call your advocate.........