legalised euthanasia ..... culling the old and sick

walkerscott


Joined: 13/08/2009
Posts: 901

Message Posted:
12/12/2009 11:50

The UK National 'Health Service (NHS) is introducing a policy of withdrawing food, fluid and treatment once the close-to-death judgement has been made to put them on what they call the 'death pathway'.The patient is also fed sedative drugs continually until death which can mask the fact that their state of health has improved.



Professor Peter Millard, Emeritus Professor of Geriatrics, University of London, and Dr Peter Hargreaves, a consultant in Palliative Medicine at St Luke's cancer centre in Guildford, are among many doctors who are extremely concerned at what is happening.



They say that patients are being diagnosed as being close to death 'without regard to the fact that the diagnosis could be wrong'. Dr Hargreaves said that some patients were being wrongly put on the 'pathway', which created a 'self-fulfilling prophecy' that they would die.

walkerscott


Joined: 13/08/2009
Posts: 901

Message Posted:
12/12/2009 11:52

He said that he had personally taken patients off the pathway who went on to live for 'significant' amounts of time and warned that many doctors were not checking the progress of patients enough to notice improvement in their condition. 'I have been practising palliative medicine for more than 20 years and I am getting more concerned about this 'death pathway' that is coming in', he said.

Hazel Fenton, an 80-year-old British grandmother, had her drugs and food stopped under this 'scheme' when doctors said she had days to live and yet nine months later she was still alive after her outraged daughter, Christine Ball, fought with doctors for four days to have the drugs and food restored.

A nurse even asked Christine what she wanted to do with her mother's body. Christine was exactly right when she said: 'My mother was going to be left to starve and dehydrate to death. It really is a subterfuge for legalised euthanasia of the elderly ...'

sienna


Joined: 09/01/2009
Posts: 1627

Message Posted:
12/12/2009 12:31

a dog would be treated better !!! shocking

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
12/12/2009 12:39

RE msg 1 & 2: "legalised euthanasia" UK style - if this is going to be the prevailing standard - is wrong and a dangerous development. "legalised euthanasia" Dutch style (only on your own request in 99% of the cases) is a basic human right - people have the right to decide about their own body.

nurseawful



Joined: 06/02/2009
Posts: 5934

Message Posted:
12/12/2009 13:35

Walkerscott

I cannot comment on the case mentioned but any hospital I worked in in Scotland the case was this. Only when a patient was terminally ill, and with consultation of the family or next of kin, and when the patient him/herself was unable to talk for themselves was feeding withdrawn. Fluids would then continue subcutaneously if IV access was no longer an option (usually the veins had collapsed by this time)

As for sedative drugs this was not the case, the patient would receive analgesia if and when required to prevent any distress and this was also done with the families consent.



Again Walkerscott you seem to have a problem with conventional medicine and the NHS, which incidentally in my opinion is one of the finest institutions in the world.

Chris

everon


Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 956

Message Posted:
12/12/2009 13:59

I agree with Nurseawful, my parents who are both in their 90's have a great life. My father bought another new car this year, they love to drive around the Yorkshire Dales and stop for a pub lunch. My mum has decided to have another knee replacement, she had her other knee done 6yrs ago. When I queried why she was putting herself through surgery at almost 93yrs old she replied "why not, my doctor says my heart is strong, why should I put up with pain" I shudder to think what would happen if she had a doctor who took the 'death pathway'. We have just seen Peggy at KAR xmas fair, she must be 102yrs old now and she was mother xmas! so rock on mum and dad (and Peggy too) x

RickF64


Joined: 07/01/2009
Posts: 173

Message Posted:
12/12/2009 14:22

It would seem that Brown's little 'Darling' is helping things along this awful pathway with the shabby pension increase of 2.5%, but only on the basic pension. Surely this is going to push yet more vulnerable pensioners in to winter poverty as they try to keep warm and fed?

I cannot think of any fuel, rates or services in the UK that has ever risen annually by such a small amount.

joandjelly


Joined: 24/02/2008
Posts: 2953

Message Posted:
12/12/2009 14:34

If a person is supposedly close to death, what is the rationale for withdrawing food and fluids? It just seems barbaric to me.

smithy


Joined: 17/07/2008
Posts: 5301

Message Posted:
12/12/2009 15:21

I am all for euthanasia but as a last result

nurseawful



Joined: 06/02/2009
Posts: 5934

Message Posted:
12/12/2009 15:32

Joandjelly,

A lot of times in the end of life situations the patient is on parental feeding (food) this in itself causes other problems like diarrhoea which in turn can lead to sores so the feed is discontinued. If IV access is still okay then fluids will continue if not then subcutaneous fluids will be used.

There is nothing barbaric in this in my opinion. Hope this helps to explain a little for you.

Chris

joandjelly


Joined: 24/02/2008
Posts: 2953

Message Posted:
12/12/2009 16:23

Thanks Chris

jinyx


Joined: 21/08/2009
Posts: 161

Message Posted:
12/12/2009 19:31

I dont really think theres anything wrong with euthanasia , I went too school with a few indians and a lad from thailand, and I found them alright!.

Mindy



Joined: 27/10/2008
Posts: 1210

Message Posted:
12/12/2009 19:39

Can you explain message 12 to me I am not grasping it, or was it meant to be funny ???

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
12/12/2009 19:41

RE msg 12: | http://is.gd/5l7wJ |

Jeannie


Joined: 04/08/2009
Posts: 3283

Message Posted:
12/12/2009 19:43

Mindy - "Youth in Asia" (I think )

nurseawful



Joined: 06/02/2009
Posts: 5934

Message Posted:
12/12/2009 19:49

Walkerscott,

You have a habit of posing and running away I await your response.

walkerscott


Joined: 13/08/2009
Posts: 901

Message Posted:
12/12/2009 19:49

Chris,



I brought this item to the forum for public attention only. I do not have a problem with the NHS or conventional medicine at all. You should learn not to judge or condemn people my friend.



Keep an open mind.



John

jinyx


Joined: 21/08/2009
Posts: 161

Message Posted:
12/12/2009 19:57

re msg 14, is that one more "too" instead of "to", (as they say in London) me old dutch!.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
12/12/2009 20:03

RE msg 18, jinyx: (...) re msg 14, is that one more "too" instead of "to", (as they say in London) me old dutch!. (...)

=> Huh? | http://is.gd/5l7wJ | "You went too school"? You must be kidding!

jinyx


Joined: 21/08/2009
Posts: 161

Message Posted:
12/12/2009 20:16

Re msg 19, Now thats exactly why I agree with euthanasia!. " dutch, you missed the point, me old dutch.

walkerscott


Joined: 13/08/2009
Posts: 901

Message Posted:
12/12/2009 20:34

Chris, my last response on this. I think you missed the point with your eagerness to criticise someone ...

Professor Millard, Emeritus Professor of Geriatrics, University of London, and Dr Peter Hargreaves, who has been practising palliative medicine for more than 20 years , are the ones who have been getting more concerned about this 'death pathway' that is coming in'.

How long have you specialised in palliative medicine? Do you think Christine Ball was wrong to contest the NHS decision? THe one thing i do agree with you about is the fact that family members should always be consulted prior to such a decision, but that was not the case!

I have helped lots of dementia and alzheimer patients and their families in England contest NHS decisions. This has helped alleviate much distress for the families involved and has also saved thier dear one's family assets which they worked hard and long for.

I'll send the full message to your private email Chris as this box is too small.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
12/12/2009 20:40

RE msg 20, jinyx: (...) Re msg 19, Now thats exactly why I agree with euthanasia!. " dutch, you missed the point, me old dutch. (...)

=> Who said "Even God cannot contain stupidity"? Was it Friedrich Nietzsche? Friedrich Schiller?

jinyx


Joined: 21/08/2009
Posts: 161

Message Posted:
12/12/2009 21:05

Re msg 22, ah, you got me there dutch, cant say I do, but it was Ricky Gervais who said, " I did a one night show in amsterdam, and another five nights explaining the punchlines". Maybe i shouldnt tell the one about anne Frank being the dutch hide and seek champion four years in a row, no maybe not!. {:

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
12/12/2009 21:09

RE msg 23, jinyx: (...) Maybe i shouldnt tell the one about anne Frank being the dutch hide and seek champion four years in a row, no maybe not!. (...)

=> You're a despicable man and not worth any reaction again.

jinyx


Joined: 21/08/2009
Posts: 161

Message Posted:
12/12/2009 21:43

re msg 24: well cant argue with an expert on that subject, can I me old dutch? you are the man!.

boglefan



Joined: 07/06/2009
Posts: 511

Message Posted:
13/12/2009 01:08

Walkerscot, can you please let me know where you have read this. The pathway to which you are referring is it the Liverpool Care Pathway by any chance? If so please let me know and I will get a copy of this on the forum. Euthanasia is not legal in Britain but if anyone wants to know the ins and outs of the Liverpool Care Pathway I will be more than willing to explain it, and yes I do hold a palliative care qualification.

Jeannie


Joined: 04/08/2009
Posts: 3283

Message Posted:
13/12/2009 01:30

I work as a humble medical secretary and worked at our local Hospice for 8 years. The Liverpool Care Pathway, as I understood it, was the 'Bible' for palliative care. I am sure that either Chris or Irene will correct me if I am wrong here?

Jeannie


Joined: 04/08/2009
Posts: 3283

Message Posted:
13/12/2009 01:36

Message 23 -so, I assume your'e another one that thinks the Holocaust never happened, either?



PS Just as a pont of interest, I think Ricky Gervais is a One Tricky Pony, i.e. He's Ricky Gervais.

mahdel


Joined: 28/05/2009
Posts: 255

Message Posted:
13/12/2009 01:41

ignoring all the ridiculous and quite frankly offensive comparisons to the holocaust, I'm just wondering if there's any sort of proof suggesting that the NHS has now decided that it's official policy is to do what has been suggested on this thread. As a non-Brit I have no stake in this, I just find it hard to believe that a country's official health service has officially decided to off the elderly and infirm in the way the first post has mentioned. I may be wrong, I'd just like a little more evidence as this seems a bit sensationalist.

boglefan



Joined: 07/06/2009
Posts: 511

Message Posted:
13/12/2009 01:45

Please do not underestimate yourself Jeannie, you are correct the Liverpool Care Pathway is a careplan for end of life care to ensure death is painfree and with dignity. It also includes care of the family and makes sure that they are included in any decisions regarding the ongoing treatment of their loved one. As I have previously said euthanasia is illegal in Britain and if I assisted in helping someone in pain or distressed to die then I would lose my registration and be prosecuted in a court of law.



So once again I would like to know if this is an out of context article that Walkerscot has come across and if I have to shout then I will. EUTHANASIA IS ILLEGAL IN BRITAIN!

jinyx


Joined: 21/08/2009
Posts: 161

Message Posted:
13/12/2009 11:30

Re msg 28: Jeannie, If you can deduce that, from what was put in that message, I'll have some of what your on!. Mind you it was posted at 1.38 in the early hours.



On the subject of euthanasia, its been going on for years in britain. Does anybody really think there was only one harold shipman?, you would have to be out of your tiny minds if you do.



I bloody wish somebody would practise assisted euthanasia on the bloody dogs around where we live, with their constant barking all night!.



Oh! nearly forgot, this is cyprus44 god forbid you say anything against our little doggy friends!.

Yes, kill humans, but not our furry friends, ......

gillken


Joined: 25/05/2008
Posts: 521

Message Posted:
13/12/2009 12:53

I have worked in hospitals. We would administer Morphine for pain relief to terminal patient. The patient would then be prescribed Diazepam to be administered along with the morphine. We knew that the patient would pass away within 48 hours.



I visited a hopital with my mum in law, she had fallen and broken her hip. The surgeon did not hold back that if she had been from a care home he would have sent her back with out a replacement hip. But as she was still at home she could have a new hip. This was 4 years ago, still going good.

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
13/12/2009 16:24

If when you are of sound body and mind you make a living will which states that you want life prolonging drugs or machines to be withdrawn under certain circumstances then your wishes should be respected.

walkerscott


Joined: 13/08/2009
Posts: 901

Message Posted:
13/12/2009 20:55

Cath,



The two links are as follows:



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6127514/Sentenced-to-death-on-the-NHS.html



http://www.healthdirect.co.uk/2009/09/sentenced-to-death-on-nhs-by-nice-red.html



The more people are aware of such treatment policy, the better for all i think.



God Bless



John

littlejohn


Joined: 09/03/2009
Posts: 316

Message Posted:
14/12/2009 02:23

Message 7 - who severed the link between pensions and earnings?