[DOGS] A belated Christmas Carol-2 (complaint against KAR)

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 19:18

Ladies and gentlemen, Mes dames et messieurs, Meine Damen und Herrn, Dames en heren etc etc. I left you in this thread: http://www.cyprus44.com/forums/28449.asp , so this a continuation (nr. 2) from this thread. And I predict continuation nr. 3 is only hours or days away. The most probable title of thread nr. 3 will be: "Death on the road". (I'll photograph all gruesome details).



We'll start with the current situation. The two dogs (brother and sister, although KAR says wrongly brother and brother) are still around Guido's Bistro. Neighbours of Liz and Guido are nice to them and tolerate them. This is how two dogs - neutered and put back in "nature" (Alsancak, August 2009, say the KAR files) - this is how they live and sleep in "nature"...



http://www.allcrusades.com/BB_pics/S5001332_web.jpg



[more]

britvic



Joined: 05/09/2008
Posts: 3039

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 19:27

Although everyone is absolutely sickened by what happens with these poor animals in NC, there is nothing that can be done. I am sure that the dogs would be better off put down rather than poisoned or ran over but, they will not do that there.





Vicki

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 19:29

A carton box is the place to sleep for the male dog, put back in "nature" by KAR...

http://www.allcrusades.com/BB_pics/S5001334_web.jpg

Crossing the line: on their way to Guido's restaurant, not begging (they know better after a couple of days), just expecting food and water...

http://www.allcrusades.com/BB_pics/S5001339_web.jpg

Liz Spina, feeding the two (sort of) hunting dogs. Again some kind people dropped a bag of dog food at Guido's today. Thanks, you know who you are.

http://www.allcrusades.com/BB_pics/S5001345_web.jpg



[more] The cruel death on the road of two lovely dogs who trusted KAR. Neutered, tagged, Front-lined and put back in "nature" in Alsancak. KAR: you are on the wrong track, your policy is cruel and makes no sense.

smithy


Joined: 17/07/2008
Posts: 5301

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 19:30

I agree Vicki it has to be the only option, how many more strays can we take in

measey


Joined: 07/02/2009
Posts: 1037

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 19:32

surely someone can take then in seems a bit drastic to me .



Keith.

britvic



Joined: 05/09/2008
Posts: 3039

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 19:35

The thing is this, someone is going to have to start putting the dogs down. There is no other way, Kar are not allowed to do this.

The solution? Someone will have to take the task themselves but, who?

measey


Joined: 07/02/2009
Posts: 1037

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 19:36

Hi smithy . perhaps i need to understand the circumstances over there and am ibit green. Is there not a dog or animal rescue over there if not why not



Keith.

measey


Joined: 07/02/2009
Posts: 1037

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 19:37

wow dont like the sound of that.

britvic



Joined: 05/09/2008
Posts: 3039

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 19:40

Keith (measey) the dogs are taken in by Kar, neutered, then put back in the area they were found hoping that the people in that area will feed and look after them, this doesn't always happen, so they are usually poisoned, shot or ran over! What's the point?

Vidal


Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 867

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 19:40

These are big, healthy looking dogs. Look at their shiny coats. It seems someone has been taking good care of them up till now.



Just a suggestion..could they be walked back up into the village? It maybe the person who feeds these street dogs has just gone away for xmas and as long as Lilli continues to feed them they 'aint goin nowhere.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 19:43

RE msg 2, Vicki: You are so right, Britvic. But. 400 Years ago the situation in Cyprus wasn't any better for dogs. And people were traditionally beheaded. No TC's, Turks or expats are beheaded anymore - so why not combine our powers and fight for a better situation for dogs? For 2010: "KAR: putting back stray dogs after neutering in the streets of Girne, Alsancak or wherever, or putting them back in "nature" is ABSOLUTELY WRONG AND CRUEL TO THE ANIMALS". KAR, you're an institution to help animals, not an institution for the sake of your institution.

britvic



Joined: 05/09/2008
Posts: 3039

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 19:48

Again Hans it boils down to who is listening? Who needs to hear? There have been many threads on here over the same subject for years and nothing has been done.

Jeannie


Joined: 04/08/2009
Posts: 3283

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 19:48

As far as I can see, the situation regarding these poor creatures is only going to get worse. I can see no other way around this problem, as I have said before on many occasions, but mass euthanasia. I'm sorry if it sounds cruel, but surely it's "being cruel to be kind"? What's preferable - the animals getting run over or poisoned or being put down painlessly?



Having said that, unfortunately I have no idea of how to go about getting things changed. You hear confliciting reports of what vets will do and what they won't. I don't know the truth in this matter, but someone must, surely?

taraspring


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 571

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 19:54

Who are the people in authority at KAR? Can we have email address to contact them direct?



I read about BARK on another forum and am going to cut and paste the ladies post on here. It appears that these dogs have been abandoned? Does anyone know what is going on there?



Here goes....

Ive been interested in BAR since some time, but always something was preventing me to go there. I found out where is it exactly and since its close to where I live I decided to visit the place.

When I reached there, dogs were outside the building but soon they started to go inside as they saw me and my fiance aproaching closer. First of all - terrible smell...I guess nobody is cleaning there. Object is closed, and obviously except maybe 1 or 2 visits per day (i hope) of someone to feed animals, nobody is going there. Luckyly there are only dogs (adults, medium age and puppies) no cats. Empty bowls - no water inside but we saw some generator connected with some pomp - so I think someone is giving

taraspring


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 571

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 19:57

.... them water, although they should have water in their bowls all the time! Dogs hve milions of fleas - I saw many running on their skin, eyes infections...Puppies are being kept separately from adults and medium age dogs but male and female dogs I guess they are all together - this explains whypuppies are there and so many of them. On of the puppies was without 1 leg and I felt sorry about it and wanted to take it with me but since there was nobody around I didn't want to "steal" it.

KAR is very popular, I saw it has its own website - BAR I guess doesn't have. Ive remember from one of Cyprus Today's that there was some British lady taking care of this place but mayor of Iskele closed it months ago...

I wish I could take all that dogs with me. There was one dog which we called "smiling dog" he was really smiling to us - incredible, but it was also very afraid, some fo dogs were observing us from quite big distance. I think that if we include puppies there will be around 30 dogs all

taraspring


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 571

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 19:58

I hope the lady who posted this does not mind me copying it over here?

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 20:09

RE msg 12, britvic: (...) Again Hans it boils down to who is listening? Who needs to hear? There have been many threads on here over the same subject for years and nothing has been done. (...)

=> You're right again. But I don't see a reason to give up. At least I won't. The more people agree in this thread the stronger we get. We must forget sentimentality - we want dogs in TRNC with a future. Wait till I show you the 20+ dead dogs on the roads - with and without tags - I photographed already. Not kid's stuff. Just the truth in pictures. I don't want to close my eyes anymore. KAR is an important part of the problem, they are on the wrong track. We, the members who think different, must go on telling the members who think different. That's democracy.

elkiton



Joined: 15/03/2009
Posts: 514

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 20:12

Dutch,

Crusading against KAR is a bit like taking on and abusing the village Doctor in Rwanda who has very limited resources and yet still manages to do something for his patients.

Neutered animals DO NOT BREED or have you missed this fact?

Whilst we would all like to see a permanent fix to the solution, you are really shooting at a soft target.

If abusing them is the best you can come up with, then my once high opinion of you has fallen yet further.

Instead of rabble rousing here on the 44 board, do something useful and lobby a few muktah's, apply your mind and energy to finding a solution, but leave alone the people that at least do something to help keep the animal population

in check

TonyE

westender


Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 328

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 20:13

Oh dear, this just goes on and on. What choice do KAR have? The government gives no support, the vets won't euthanase and KAR are not allowed to even IF they could get hold of the necessary drugs. There's no room at the rescue centre so their hands are really tied.

Our local RSPCA centre and Cats Protection in the UK have waiting lists for animals to be taken in that are months long and they have options open to them that KAR do not, so please just think how awful the situation would be if there was no KAR and believe me with all the stick they're given would you blame them if they just said 'sod it' and gave up. But no, they do the best they can with the resources and laws that are available to them.

taraspring


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 571

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 20:13

I have just found the email address from the site at the top of this page.



For anyone wanting to contact them about this policy it is

kar@kyreniaanimalrescue.org

taraspring


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 571

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 20:18

But Tony I believe DC does have a point, and I read that he is a lifelong member of KAR, so he has every right to raise issues that he feels strongly about, and challenge policies there.



It's all very well saying that is what KAR do, and nothing is going to change with that, and if we all thought that in life, nothing would ever change.



I asked this question before, and the answer I got (from DC) was vets can put animals down over there, so why is it not being done?

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 20:33

Msg 18, elkiton: (...) Neutered animals DO NOT BREED or have you missed this fact? (...)

=> Elkiton, you've obviously made it your mission in this and other threads to make a fool of me. So be it. For your information: this thread is not about me. It's about stray dogs (neutered, tagged etc) put back on the streets by KAR - for other people to care about them.

Oh, one question: Can I bring "the dogs who don't breed because they are neutered" (a fact I didn't miss) to *your* place? Tonight? I'll start with a dozen. Two of them will be the dogs who roam the area of a restaurant in Alsancak, annoying the neigbouhgring shopkeepers and customers. Ticks and flee ridden. Can I bring them?

(...) If abusing them is the best you can come up with, then my once high opinion of you has fallen yet further. Instead of rabble rousing here on the 44 board, do something useful (...)

=> I don't need you to stimulate me to do something useful and I don't care about your opinion about me.

elkiton



Joined: 15/03/2009
Posts: 514

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 20:34

Hi Taraspring, My point is that KAR is the wrong target, and putting invective their way is not the right things to do.

It's a bit like a shop checkout till operator being abused because there is only one till open, wrong target!

It's easier to harangue them (KAR) than actually sort the problem out, that takes time and a lot of energy. Sitting at a keyboard pouring out invective is a far easier way to spend ones time, though not so productive, especially when you are preaching to the converted.

I don't think KAR have got it right, but at least they are doing something useful while the rest of the world holds a talking shop from the safety of their keyboards.

TonyE

taraspring


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 571

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 20:42

Hi Tony, KAR is not being targeted here. Their policies on euthenasia are the issue. No-one I can see is haranguing them. As you say yourself "I don't think KAR have got it right". They are doing something useful, but they are also not listening to the obvious solution (for whatever reason). If enough people have the time and energy to email them/discuss practical solutions either directly with them, or put together some ideas for change which is the discussion here, they may have to listen.

Tx

britvic



Joined: 05/09/2008
Posts: 3039

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 20:43

Tony, I hear what you are saying but, this is a major problem and needs addressing, maybe one person who can help is reading this. All it takes is one.



Vicki

elkiton



Joined: 15/03/2009
Posts: 514

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 20:45

Dutch,

Nobody wants to make a fool of you but when you post such blatant rubbish as you have lately in an open forum then somebody needs to out you in your place.

Don't be so ridiculous as to suggest that you will bring the mutts round here, we have our own problems with strays in my neck of the woods too,but I won't rail against KAR because of it.

And wrong, you do care about my opinion of you, or you would have ignored my posting.

You are just incensed that somebody has taken you to task rather than be a syncophant which is clearly what you desire.

You are in the wrong Dutch, and wasting good forum time s**** stirring against KAR.

So as I said, do something useful to help solve the problem.

Or if you prefer the vernacular "Put up or shut up."

TonyE

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 20:47

RE msg 24, taraspring: (...) Hi Tony, KAR is not being targeted here. Their policies on euthenasia are the issue. (...)

=> You say it in better English than I was able to do. Too bad elkiton (TonyE) didn't understand the point I was trying to make - he may after your post. I hope.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 20:56

RE msg 26, elkiton: Thank you for your interesting post about me. Yawn. And now back to the subject of this thread: dogs.

taraspring


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 571

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 20:56

I don't think that discussions/debates/ideas on what can be done of about such a serious issue are wasting good forum time. This is an ideal platform for ideas to be pooled, expanded upon, and solution reached which could be put to KAR/The authorities.



Contrary to your comment - It is doing something useful to help solve the problem.



By "putting up or shutting up" as you put it, it is closing your eyes and minds to the problem, and if everyone did that, nothing would ever change IMO.



I just hope that people continue to contribute to this thread with positive ideas.

Tx

taraspring


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 571

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 21:12

I think the majority agree with euthenasia, because of the scale of the problem but here are some other ideas.



What about an on-line Petition which could be presented to KAR and the relevant authorities dealing with the practical solutions?



And also, licensing and tagging of all dogs. ie the owners would be obliged to purchase a licence and tag their dog or face a heafty fine. Dog warden picking up dogs would then be aware of the owners, and if the dogs are left to roam, owners would be fined.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 21:33

RE msg 30, taraspring: (...) What about an on-line Petition which could be presented to KAR and the relevant authorities dealing with the practical solutions? (...)

=> I think it is better to get enough KAR members (with the right to vote) to the AGM to tell the Committee what the majority of the voting members want. I'm afraid the relevant authorities will be only too pleased to leave the problem to KAR - and will only act or agree if an easy, cheap solution is presented.

(...) And also, licensing and tagging of all dogs. ie the owners would be obliged to purchase a licence and tag their dog etc (...)

=> In Alsancak one has to have his/her dog(s) registered every year and pay tax. The vet there told me that he wondered if 30% of the dog owners (TC's and expats) ever showed up.

=> One of my dogs has a microchip with info about him in his ear (done in Holland) - but the chip can't be read here. Tag him also?

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 21:39

RE msg 30, taraspring: (...) Dog warden picking up dogs would then be aware of the owners, and if the dogs are left to roam, owners would be fined. (...)

=> But what about the expats who return to their native country and put their animals on the street? (People wouldn't do that? O yes, they do.). Why not make every animal owner pay a 1000 Pounds/Euros deposit - just to make sure the animal can be cared for when he/she is abandoned?

taraspring


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 571

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 22:02

Good idea.

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 22:48

this subject has been gone over time and again, these dogs could be rounded up a taken to nicosea and euthanasia administered but no, kar have the vans to take them, they have hundreds go through there hands that they put back on the streets to starve, get run over, or cause accidents,i blame every person who donates to this "charity" lol, kar or the local vets will not put them down,not because its against the law but because the gravy boat would end wake up and smell the coffee

Teresa


Joined: 21/11/2007
Posts: 1018

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 22:53

Hans not sure the deposit would work, it might even stop people caring for some of these poor dogs.

I have never been a great fan of KAR but i do believe they try but it is time they realised this tagging and returning policy is not working. Not sure why as a charity they cant approach the goverment or the vet dept to see if a mass cull could be done. There is enough evidence to show how big the problem is. Maybe they have tried that approach but it is time to try again and keep trying until changes are made.

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 23:05

There is certainly a misconception about the vets here not prepared to euthanise dogs, they do it all the time. The information I have is that KAR refuse to allow fit and healthy dogs to be put to sleep..



Another argument is about the cost, well what about the cost of keeping a dog in an institution for years with no hope of rehomeing. Any good vet will help these animals to a better life.



I hate the idea of euthanasia but it is people who are responsible for the problem in the first place, Traditionally in rural communities the world over unwanted creatures were destroyed and this kept the population under control. So now in TRNC we have all the unwanted muts being picked up and neutralised and let back on the streets. A friend said earlier "how long before several of these released muts attack and kill somebody. Who will be sued".



I like pets, we have 5 cats that have adopted us but an end has to be called to this "lets save everything" society.



DC is right again.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 23:22

I have been very upset that KAR couldnt help me.All I asked was to take them to the area they dropped them in. The bugger me a customer came in and had a problem with a pregnant dog. They eventually took it to KAR after weeks of KAR saying No . A she had the pups and they were instantly put down/KAR does get a lot in donations and free food from bakeries and butchers. I personally know the baker and butcher also many volunteers. Top people get the wage and they are in an office in an apartment block in town. Next year Iwill try to set something up. The poloicy now is community feeding aLL WELL AND GOOD. i KNOW THEY ARE FULL. I was told if you are worried about them eating by your restaurant then create a seperate feeding area and ask your neighbours to do the same. yeah right my neighbours do not want them around. I have had 5 years aasking for help and not once did i get it.I think the time has come to lobby the government. The expats who can pick up a dog or cat so easily then they p

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 23:35

put it back on the street. A small percentage may find me or are droped on me whatever. How many go to dog heaven by one way or another. How many die thier from parvo do we know. This is a charity and we are entitled to ask. By God my mission in life is to help these creatures. Last night a home was offered to Holly for 3 weeks, when I asked what happens after the three weeks answer on the street or I shoot her. well im stunned . Once I have homed Holly which I dont think will be long and Dylan then These two will be my babies to rehome. My target and I didnt know I had one homed 17 dogs 7 cats now I want20 by the end of the year. I will be in conact with the RSPCA as I know the give KAR funding also animal charities in Turkey. Also the vetinary dept here. I will find a way. I will pay the vets myself now rather than make a donation to get Hollly if I have her long enough nuetered also dylan. Tonight I frontlined them for them and they do come into contact with the others as they play

taraspring


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 571

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 23:44

Lilli, I am a member of the RSPCA, shall I contact their head office to see whether they could send a representative or offer advice if they do make funding available to KAR?



They have such knowledge.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 23:47

Dear Elkiton and Westender.They also make money privately for telling you how to get your animal out through germany and also private kennels. Its all about money and dont be fooled the government gave the land.A kind lady left her house when she died aBOUT 300.000 WORTH so something could come from that to seethe way forward. The problem may never be eliavated but education not eridication. Dress a puppy up in a father xmas outfit then thats for xmas not for life. How many took the little santas from the market only to put them baCK ON THE STREET. i FOR ONE WOULD LOVE TO KNOW THE MORTALITY RATE OF PUPPIES IN THIER CARE

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 23:52

lilli,



A very emotive comment and well said.



I feel the people in charge of KAR have lost the plot. When Margaret first started it was probably OK to neuter and put back into society but times have changed, the Brits are here in force and want to save every stray that comes their way. Guilty as charged with our 5 cats!!!!!!!



It is all very well setting up "feeding areas" but how long before most of TRNC becomes just that.



I know the little mites will end up in a better place as long as things are done correctly and it must be done soon otherwise the place will become like Hamelin.



Praise is given to all that help, even the daft ones like Liz!!!!!!!!!! But where does it end.



Hans says it as it is in his eyes and I know he and Trix are pet lovers like most of us so maybe we can persuade KAR and BARK to do what is really the wrong thing.

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 00:15

the management at kar have lost there way im afraid, and no amount of donations will sort it, new management is needed but i think you will find they will close ranks

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 00:29

David I thank you but as daft as you think i am i really do care for thier welfare. i take them to vets they get frontlined wormed etc. Hans has been a wonderful supporter and without him and keith i could not have homed as many as i have. How many have KAR homed this year does anyone know. We know they take in but who goes xI know you mean it in the nicest asense aND YOU ARE RIGHT XXXXX

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 00:40

Now, stop that Liz. Daft was meant as a compliment.



Wish you could see the 5 out here. We have to go to England next July for a week and I am dreading what will happen to my babies.



The sentiments of KAR are correct but they have slipped from reallity.



Maybe Hans can direct some of his energies to a new project working alongside KAR.



Sorry Hans, I did like the card!!!!!!!!

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 00:48

David I knew that. If your worried love bring them to me or i will go and feed them. Hans and I have our heads together xxxxxxx

littlejohn


Joined: 09/03/2009
Posts: 316

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 02:02

Every holiday I spend now in TRNC is spoilt by dogs barking throughout the night!! ( Wherever you go )

In fact the same problem exists big time here in the UK.

It's not the dogs that are the problem!!

It's the good old "dog deaf dog lover"

As an aside I spent many years on the island in the late 60s early 70s with no problems with dogs.

The problem has increased over the years with the influx of Brits and Brit expats.

I spent one holiday in the Patara complex where a family of Brit dog owners were responsible for many days and nights of misery.

Then in Bellapais it was the locals who had dogs tied to a post all day and night.

It's not the dogs who should be "euthanised" !!!!

jinyx


Joined: 21/08/2009
Posts: 161

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 08:00

Msg: 46 Well said, Couldn't have put it better myself, DOG MAD BRITS, a pain in the a##e!.

itfc1978


Joined: 31/03/2009
Posts: 187

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 08:43

http://www.cyprus44.com/forums/19952.asp



For those that think that randomly killing dogs is the answer read comments made by erolz and try to understand the points made



For those who continue to make unsubstantiated allegations about KAR have you ever attended an AGM?

Have you paid your £50 to become a life member?

Have you visited the centre?

Have you visited the office?

Do you actually help in any way?

Have you spoken to Margaret?

Will you ever do anything other then moan and grown about a charity set up to protect and care for dogs and cats that is inspected and takes advice from the RSPCA, numerous vets and people that do know what they are talking about?

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 08:44

I'm definitely not planning to attack KAR as an institution - I think very good work is done also. I only don't agree with the policy of returning animals back on the streets (with all known results as mentioned in this and other threads). And I would like to see a clear euthanasia policy for the animals in KAR's care - I think three to six months give the animals a fair chance to be re-homed. If that doesn't happen the consequences must be clear to everybody. Nothing new by the way - it happens in Western Europe also.

All this can only be achieved - in my opinion - in a democratic way by like-minded people during an AGM. The facts are clear and can be proven with text by witnesses and photographic material. The KAR Committee can hardly be annoyed when well meaning members are interested in KAR, can it?

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 08:45

We have two dogs which we have made sure are well looked after while we are in UK for xmas, well I am here for a while but Kev only came for a couple of weeks because of our dogs, whilst we have been here a sad and abused dog has adopted us and lodged in what used to be Krall's Kennel, our lovely neighbour who is looking after Krall and Kont told us we have this 'lodger', he said Dee I knew you wouldn't turn it away so I am feeding it till Kev gets back on Monday, of course I wouldn't turn it away, neither would Kev, it had an embedded chain around its neck which Tony our neighbour managed to remove and bathe and the dog is ok, he is well fed and warm and loved now.



Just another abused casualty of cruelty on this lovely island.



KAR if you are reading this, sort this problem out and stop telling people that Euthanisia is not acceptable, you know this is a lie and you know why you say it.



DC is right!!!

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 08:53

I would also like to add that the Vets here are just as bad as KAR, think about it, how many Vets are there in the TRNC...loads, far more than would be say here in Bristol and who goes to these Vets, the Brits, yes some Turks do take their animals but the majority of people who take poor abused and abandoned animals are the Brits who pay for the dogs treatment, remove that element and those Vets would not get enough business to survive, it is a vicious circle.

jacktheladett


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 528

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 09:04

This subject has been rattling round various boards for years, and time rolls on and nothing changes, it seems people who actually care and are animal lovers (and probably people who are not) think euthanasia is the only option. I am of the same opinion.



Whilst I am not a big fan of petitions, I would willingly sign something to at least get the groundswell of opinion focused on the problem and at least get the subject discussed on a wider scale.



Could it be a start in the right direction? It would be a positive action anyway.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 09:11

RE msg 48, itfc1978: I can say 'yes' to several of your questions. But is that the point? Do all the supporters of Arsenal play in the main team? We have to accept that people have different ideas about euthanasia - we must find out the pro and contra people without shouting to each other. Personal attacks, ill-founded accusations and what have you don't help. A change of policy may be possible or not desired - if we don't try, nothing will ever change. So I've decided to give it a try within a democratic frame.

itfc1978


Joined: 31/03/2009
Posts: 187

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 09:54

Sorry I must have missed you at the various AGM`s I have attended, thought I might have bumped into you on my numerous visits to the centre or even perhaps my occasional visit to the office, but there you go.



But as you are being resonable I suggest you read the thread posted,if that does not convince you euthanasia is not the answer then as a member/supporter/volunteer you should know that this is not the best place to discuss these matters, you are able to take them direct to KAR or even better direct to the gov who have the power to change the policy.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 10:12

itfc, euthanasia is the answer, the reason it is not adopted is because there are too many people earning a good living out of this dreadful situation...end of.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 10:31

RE msg 55, itfc1978: (...) you should know that this is not the best place to discuss these matters, you are able to take them direct to KAR (...)

=> This thread was not started to explain what I did (I never find it necessary to boast about it) or did not do for animals. The point is that there is a serious dog problem out here and that in my opinion KAR's policy of returning dogs back on the streets IS the main part of the problem. That problem must finally be solved one way or another. And I or we should not discuss these matters here, you say? Why not - do you really think that one man's voice in a polite, direct discussion with the KAR leadership will change anything? You may think so, but I don't. I take the liberty to write here about KAR matters when I think I have to do it. And I will try to get enough support for my points of view to change certain KAR policies - during the next AGM.

minertor



Joined: 14/02/2009
Posts: 1238

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 13:36

In an earlier thread, Cockneyjason was enquiring about buying a hunting rifle. A member replied that there was nothing left to shoot at.

Now all on this thread seem to agree, for once, that there are too many stray dogs.

Both problems solved.



Tony

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 13:57

Minertor exactly what hubby has just said!.....

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 14:43

DC as KAR is a charity, do the members vote in a new chair etc and how often does this happen, maybe you should be put forward to run the place, you would get my support.

stellasstar1



Joined: 02/07/2008
Posts: 1519

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 15:49

Something has too happen soon, but as well as agreeing with all Hans has said, I think the ex-pats are also partly to blame. I was told by KAR that the average life of a street cat was 2 years(don't know about dogs), but of course if we keep on feeding them, then they will live longer. If they haven't been caught and "done", they will be healthier to breed more, and so the cycle goes on. What do we do, see them and let them starve or feed them and let them live longer,and breed, and this applies to dogs as well. How can KAR expect us all to feed all of the strays. I spend a lot on my own 4cats, and now I feed 2 adult strays and 3 kittens, and it gets very expensive. I can't afford to set up a feeding station as KAR ask. The mother stray had 6 kittens, but she was in a terrible state and I had not been feeding her for long, 3 died and if I hadn't been feeding mum, I think another 2 would have died., so I upset the natural "law".Next problem is getting them caught and "done"

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 15:53

I think a lot of people are missing some salient points here.

1: Culling of stray dogs.

How and who would define a stray dog, there are many TC's and Brits that let their dogs roam but they are well looked after and are not 'strays'.

2: If you could define a stray dog then how would you cull stray dogs? poison? shooting? I do not think either would be acceptable to the Brit expat population because poison is being used now by livestock owners and local Belideye's and the expat population are rightly or wrongly complaining about dogs being poisoned. And the other factor is disposal of the carcases, as most are aware incineration is not a viable proposition out here and anyone that understands what is happening at KAR will also know that they have problems disposing of carcases of cats and dogs that have died due to disease etc. Next time you are up at KAR just ask to look into their freezers to see what a problem they have in disposing of carcases.

To be continued.

AJ

MsGarnet


Joined: 04/01/2009
Posts: 989

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 16:10

Msg 62



1) Obvious how and who would define a stray dog. Make it the law that EVERY pet on the Island is microchipped - therefore of picked up (and surely a loved pet wouldn't be a bag of bones, covered in fleas and cower at human contact - pretty obvious, isn't it)? The owner then can be traced and a reverse charge call made (they let their pet stray - they take responsibility). When a dog is sold/given to someone new - a law that a new microchip be inserted with new owners details as part of the animals transfer. To cull feral animals - why shooting or poisoning? A lethal injection - and why cannot properly conducted incineration of the body be an answer? Why would ANYONE want the streets to be rife with feral animals suffering, in danger of causing accidents to themselves and others, carrying disease, annoying/worrying children and adults - it beggars belief an animal would be 'rescued', neutered then put back on the streets with little hope of quality of life - mindless.....

mamachina


Joined: 22/11/2008
Posts: 730

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 16:46

Being married to a retired Vet, this is a subject of interest to both of us. His view - "The most important thing is quality of life. A dog that been tied or chained, but given food and water regularly, with little exercise knows no better and is probably happy. But one that has been living as one of the family, petted and loved and then deserted has no quality of life, as he knows there is a better life - he needs to be rehomed fairly quickly to a caring owner. My grief is that possibly dogs are being rehomed by temporary residents and then being deserted when they return to their country. These dogs have to live as strays and in my view this is wrong. If an owner cannot care for, or rehome their dog then it should be put to sleep."



Does anyone know what kind of numbers we are talking about? Dumped, once loved, taken in and neutered and then returned to their old haunts = no quality of life! This seems wrong.

taraspring


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 571

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 18:02

AJ said. "And the other factor is disposal of the carcases, as most are aware incineration is not a viable proposition out here and anyone that understands what is happening at KAR will also know that they have problems disposing of carcases of cats and dogs that have died due to disease etc. Next time you are up at KAR just ask to look into their freezers to see what a problem they have in disposing of carcases."



Why? It is not rocket science. Why is incineration not a viable proposition? What is wrong with burial in a designated area? Most other countries appear to cope with either option. What is the difference there?

Tx

elkiton



Joined: 15/03/2009
Posts: 514

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 18:37

Interesting debate.....I am actually coming out on the side of KAR........Remember their initials stand for Kyrenia Animal Rescue, and their primary aim is to rescue and rehome, and improve, and that includes microchipping. Why should we look to, or assume we have the right to have their mandate changed to read "run slaughterhouse and stoke incinerator"?

Whilst it might suit us, Joe Public, to have them solve our animal problem I do think it is just a little out of order to expect a charitable organisation to change their objectives to suit what WE see as a viable solution when they do not.

TonyE.

PS whilst i am an animal lover inasmuch as I have always had a pet until recently, I am in favour of having a dog shoot periodically to cull the feral strays, and euthanasia for those clearly abandoned pets.

I am also in favour of burning at the stake for any dog owner that goes out and leaves the damn thing to howl all day to the annoyance of all who live near!!!

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 18:58

A report ad interim, just to keep you updated about the two dogs re: msg 1. First a sideline: on my way back from Lefkosha to Girne this afternoon I counted three dead dogs on the road (two witnesses available). Now for the dogs roaming Guido's area: when we arrived there both were lying dangerously close to the Lapta-Girne road. The good news: they are still alive and fed again by Liz Spina. The expected news (my guess): one of these days things will go very wrong when they'll cross the Lapta-Girne road for one reason or another. I have my camera ready and wait for a phone call from Liz or Guido Spina. News is news, ain't it..?

P.S. I'm talking about two dogs who were tagged by KAR (hence neutered, I suppose) and put back on the streets in Alsancak. Bye dogs! Take care and good luck... Problem solved. Problem solved..?!

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 19:07

In the place we have a house in the Tatarstan region of Russia approximately twice per year the police come around with vehicles and round up the strays or if there is a problem with a pack appearing and you call them they will come out and round them up they then take them away.

taraspring


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 571

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 19:07

DC Maybe that is why they tag and return?

1. No longer their problem.

2. Problem solved when starved to death/poisoned/shot/run over.



It is so sad, and needs a radical overhaul of current policies coz it aint working.

Tx

taraspring


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 571

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 19:26

I feel very passionate about this situation. To me the current policies are cruel, unkind and unthinkable.

Someone mentioned it was against the Muslim religion to put an animal to sleep, yet it does not appear to be against the religion to poison or shoot the dogs. It happens all the time. I don't think it is about religion at all.

I think it is about the cheapest possible way for them to deal with the problem.



It is hard to know what to do for me as I am based in the UK, but I would be willing to offer my support in whatever way I can to deal with the plight of these poor animals. Surely it makes sense to humanely put down the old, sick, weak and unwanted. Put them out of their miserable existence, because that is what it must be for them living this life? Starving, thirsty, weak, sick, full of fleas, abandoned and unwanted.



What animal lover can think this is right?



Something has to be done.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 19:28

Tara Mike etc Im aware so much that it isnt working. yes we saw three dead on our return from the SOS party. the twio in question who i called bill and ben when i was told they were boys now turn out to be bill and bianca were waiting for me by the main road. Im worried for thier safety now on a daily basis. I just wish I knew where they have been since KAR put them back in Alsancak. Im looking into the polocies adopted in Turkey with animal charties then once I have answers we have something to go on, I also think micro chipping is a good idea at least that way we will know who dumps them on me. have to get homes for these two and ask Hans since frontlinig and caring for them they are really beautiful. Kind people donate on a regular basis but for dogs who have no hope at the centre of finding a home. the ones put back on the street have a shorter shelf life as we all know what they can encounter.These two have broken my heart and I will find a way

taraspring


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 571

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 19:31

Lilli can anyone loan you a couple of kennels for a short time?

smwredd


Joined: 07/10/2009
Posts: 260

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 19:56

Having read all the comments about KAR, all I would say is that it is a policy adopted in many countries where stray dogs and cats are rife. My cousin runs an animal charity in Bangok and much as they would like to take in all the stray animals they are unable to do so. Hence they are neutered and put back in the area they were found. Eventually of course with this policy the number of strays will drastically be reduced. Like all animal rescue centres, even in the UK, resources are limited and only stretch so far.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 20:12

Tar Im thinking of putting out an appeal. Once Holly and Dylan goes then I will probanly take them in to rehome. sadly as things are so quiet at the moment Its the cost re vets and feeding thats preventing me. I know I have to do something nd I will xxxxxxx

taraspring


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 571

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 20:13

If I can be of any help please let me know.

Tx

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 23:36

I think that TonyE gets it dead right with his comments in message 66. KAR is a rescue centre not a slaughterhouse. If dogs are to be culled/euthenised, then this is a governmental responsibility and not the responsibility of a charity.

I do voluntary work at KAR but if their raison detre was the collection and killing of strays then I, and I suspect the majority of other volunteers would not wish to assist anymore.

For those who feel that a cull is the only solution then I would suggest the following:

1. Petition the government to conduct a cull.

2. Start you own 'euthenasia centre' and DIY.

But don't expect a rescue charoty to change its' mandate.



Regards



Paul

taraspring


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 571

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 00:27

Fiendishpaul. "But don't expect a rescue charoty to change its' mandate".



Why, if that mandate is out of date? If it is not longer relevant? Things have changed. As a volunteer do you really feel happy at dropping those dogs off on the street, seeing them starving, thirsty, flee ridden, unhappy, unloved, no quality of life? I wouldn't.



Do you really feel happy at driving away........ driving away from a problem?

That really you can leave behind, or can you?



"El' cek tabib Yok tur ilacin" -



"take your hands away for you have no cure or the medicine that I need".



Think really hard about what you are doing.

Is this really the solution?

The answer is No.

Tx

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 08:19

fiendishpaul the main flaw with your argument is that KAR are not doing what they should be, I wouldn't call them a rescue charity as they only do selective rescuing, then throw the poor defenceless souls back onto the streets to suffer, a charity does not act that way.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 08:19

RE msg 76, fiendishpaul: (...) KAR is a rescue centre not a slaughterhouse. (...)

=> Objection. Nobody in this thread wishes KAR to become a slaughterhouse. It's not fair to make suggestions like yours.



=> You say "KAR is a rescue centre". Fine. Than keep the problem inside KAR and don't bring it on the streets for others to care. Today more of your "rescued" dogs will die on the road. What kind of rescue is that?!

vikingqueen



Joined: 07/02/2009
Posts: 241

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 08:33

Msg 3. I totally agree that KAR's policy is wrong, I worked/helped them when I first arrived in the TRNC (1995) but back then nothing much has changed

TopTen


Joined: 15/04/2009
Posts: 1246

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 11:32

This thread is old hat we keep going on and on about what KAR should be doing and are not, but in all honesty, without legally being allowed to put dogs down there is very little they can do.

Space up there is at a premium, funds, so we are led to believe are limited, and yes I agree it is cruel to release them to scavenge and to meet awful deaths, on the roads and poisoning, but they cannot house all strays. So unless there is someway dogs can be put down humanely,or get someone in authority to educate the locals in dog ownership and responsobillity we will carry on banging our heads on walls with this type of thread.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 11:35

RE msg 81, TopTen: (...) we will carry on banging our heads on walls with this type of thread. (...)

=> No, we won't this time. Mark my words.

TopTen


Joined: 15/04/2009
Posts: 1246

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 11:38

I so hope your right Hans good luck

jacktheladett


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 528

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 11:48

It's not just strays, there must be animals in the rescue centre that have been in there for longer than they should be, and stand very little chance of getting re-homed. There are enough pictures on Firdez's wall of animals that have been re-homed, and then bought back to the centre again, for whatever reason.

It is unlikely that any animal that has become 'institutionalised' will ever make a good pet, what can be done with these? Keep them in a pen for years on end until they die??



My message 53 has been completely ignored, so what other bright ideas are there to bring this up to a national level?

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 12:14

RE msg 84, jacktheladett: (...) My message 53 has been completely ignored, (...)

=> No, not ignored at all. I make notes from every thread with reasonable suggestions, complaints etc. They will be written in a petition for a start (though this is just a matter of procedure, I'm afraid). Next step will be a motion for the AGM with enough support to make the Committee realise that a democratic wish in the community should not and cannot be ignored. At least the matters of the "KAR is full" and of "neutering/back on the road" must be reconsidered and internally and externally discussed in order to find a better solution than the sad, current situation.

P.S. When I'm ready I'll ask for someone on this board to read my text and make it proper English - I feel I cannot afford even one error in the petition and the motion.

mamachina


Joined: 22/11/2008
Posts: 730

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 13:58

Hans exVet and I will help with petition if you need any help - I imagine you will get many offers of help!



To others - did our post no.64 make sense? and no one has come back with even an estimate of numbers! I really think dogs at KAR longer than a year without rehoming have no hope of rehoming and space should be made for younger and dare I say "prettier" dogs that may have a chance of another home. Its a horrible Catch 22 situation.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 14:13

RE msg 86, Ann: Thank you very much for your offer. I'll contact you off-board as soon as possible and needed. And "YES!" your post 64 made a lot of sense. As I said in msg 85: I collect facts, suggestions etc from all posts on this board, but you'll understand this research and writing a plan of campaign takes some time. We'd better do it thoroughly this time or else this will be just another thread without results.

westender


Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 328

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 20:13

People do not seem to consider the viability and costs of getting the necessary drugs to euthanize into the TRNC. Most councils in the UK have dog wardens that round up dogs which are 'disposed of' if not reclaimed within a reasonable amount of time. This problem is a government responsibility and as such that is who you should direct your venom towards.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
01/01/2010 02:29

Hi westender happy new year this will be paramount in our quest/ KAR alreadt have the drugs they recentky put down the puppies of a mummy as soon as they were born and then released her back. Lots of issues need to be brought up espicially the physocologial damage. I see this daily. The pain shows inthe eyes xxxx Happy new year xxxxxxxxxxx

minertor



Joined: 14/02/2009
Posts: 1238

Message Posted:
04/01/2010 21:36

msg 86: during your collecting of the facts, and related research, how many "pets" will be at risk. Is this just another of your "look at me, aint I great" postings, or are you really going to do something for these poor animals. I know you have "rescued" one or two, with the accompanying fanfare, but don't you think it's time that you proved yourself to be not the fake that I'm sure you are. Sells a map or two though, don't it.



Tony

ps I will be at Lambousa between 9-30 and 10-30 on Saturday. Would love to discuss Wooton Bassett, etc



Tony

ps have a nice day/week

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
05/01/2010 03:55

Killing healthy viable cats and dogs is NOT better for them than giving them vet treatment if necessary , neutering them and returning them to live feral if they can not be homed. It may be better for some humans but it is NOT better for those animals concerned.



If you do not like seeing ferals because it annoys, distresses or upsets you and you want them killed for your benefit then fine say that and be honest about it to yourself and others but do not pretend you want them killed for THIER benefit. Thats just BS.



Oh look there is a cat / dog that might get run over. Kill it.

Oh look there is a cat / dog that may go hungry and even stave to death. Kill it.

Oh look there is a cat / dog that may get ill. Kill it.

Oh look there is a cat / dog that has fleas. Kill it.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
05/01/2010 10:26

This thread seems to end like most threads: a repeat of strong views without the intention to even consider or discuss alternatives. Plus an unsolicited personal attack, which is not worth an answer. This thread may go on for some time, but I don't feel at home in the frame of this attitude. I started this thread with good intentions and I still have them. My last words in this thread.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
05/01/2010 10:29

Please lookat the two dogs this was started about, they need the help and perhaps a good home xx

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
05/01/2010 10:54

DC I am more than willing to have a rational discussion about the issue but my view is that for that to happen people have to be clear about what it is they want to achieve and why. Saying you want to achieve animal welfare and reduce the suffering of animals by killing them is madness and not rational in any way.



I personally would support a program of (humanely) putting down healthy animals in the TRNC as a means of control but I can not stomach the presenting of such a programm as being 'good for those animals'. I am more than willing to comtemplate and possibly accept an HONEST proposal to systematicaly and over a long period of time to put down (kill) healthy animals as a means of control to meet HUMAN needs like removing the ferals from sight and protecting indigenous wild animals from them and their effets. What I can not stomach is people pretending that this is what is best for those animals. It is not.



[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
05/01/2010 11:01

No matter how potenitaly miserable an animals (or humans for that matter) life may be it is in all but the most extreme cases preferable to an enforced death. That is just plain evident reality to me.



There is so much hypocrasy around this issue in my view. I have no doubt that SOME of those that say they want to end animal suffering actualy really mean, if they realise it or not, that what they really want is to end having to SEE animal suffering. As long as it is not in their sight then there needs are met. Now someone who honestly said this I would respect their view. In reality if ones concern is animal suffering in general then the most direct personal act one could make to reduce such is to look at an modify one eating habits. Yet this (animal suffering) is not the REAL issue for many I feel. Seeing cats and dogs dead on the side of the raod understandable upset people. How much better then (for those people) to have someone else kill said animal years before.



[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
05/01/2010 11:05

Also I am no longer in the mood to allow posters like to deecyprus4 to keep repeating the most obscene slanderous lies about the motivations of KAR and vets in North Cyprus without comment. You seem more than willing to lets such repeated slander pass unchallenged but I am not.

measey


Joined: 07/02/2009
Posts: 1037

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 13:17

Hi Vicky.



Take your point but am only trying to Help Lilli in any way i can and will continue to do so, i am in contact with Lilli by way of e-mail understand your point of view and there is a lot for me to learn about the problem. i have suggested a few ideas that we all can help Lilli with and hope you to maybe interested in helping from a finance point of view thats the point for me. ?



Keith.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 13:38

RE msg 95, erolz: (...) You seem more than willing to lets such repeated slander pass unchallenged but I am not. (...)

=> I understand you were still talking to me, but I will not be dragged into discussions about dogs/KAR on this level. I leave the audience in this thread and others about dogs/KAR to you. How unfortunate that it always ends like this.

P.S. "C'est le ton qui fait la musique" does not mean how you translated or interpreted it in another post. It means it's the way you say it - different words about the same subject. Never mind, you know more about .zip files than I do.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 13:42

Has this thread run it's course now? Two posts since 11am yesterday morning. I'll close it down unless anyone has a problem and wants it kept open.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 13:45

One of your brilliant ideas, Bill.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 13:50

I'm going to shut this down now then.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 13:50

This thread is now closed. Reason: Thread was addressed and no need for further posts.