Animal Santuary TRNC

measey


Joined: 07/02/2009
Posts: 1037

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 19:42

Is there no ex-pat living in TRNC that can step up to the plate.

britvic



Joined: 05/09/2008
Posts: 3039

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 19:45

Keith, There are too many dogs and cats, you would need a team of around 20-30 people to get it off the ground.



Vicki

taraspring


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 571

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 19:48

But there are loads of ex-pats who love animals and it may be a great idea if it got off the ground.

Vidal


Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 867

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 19:48

Measey, to get an idea of what goes on you need to read threads on dogs.

There is an animal sanctuary here but the policy is NOT to euthanise here so every dog you take in you have for their life. Its not like the UK where if they are not claimed after a certain time they are put to sleep.

Its a constant flow of dogs and cats that need re-homing.

measey


Joined: 07/02/2009
Posts: 1037

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 19:49

Hi Vicky. with respect does that mean its not possible cant believe theres nobody up for the challenge.



Keith.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 19:49

Such a shame though that nothing can be done about the problem,

Paul.

measey


Joined: 07/02/2009
Posts: 1037

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 19:50

is it run by ex-pats.



Keith.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 19:54

One of the problems is when the hunting season is on and the hunters just leave their dogs in the mountains to find their own way home.Obviously the dogs dont find their way back and are left to fend for themselves.Absoluteley terrible,

Paul.

Jeannie


Joined: 04/08/2009
Posts: 3283

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 19:55

taraspring - trouble is, there are far more animals that need re-homing than ex-pats who can home them. Unless every ex-pat took about a dozen each, of course



Also, another, additional problem (that has been highlighted lots of times) is the fact that many ex-pats are returning home and cannot re-home their animals for one reason or another, and are just leaving them to fend for themselves. Mass euthanasia, is, I believe, sadly the only way to go.

Jeannie


Joined: 04/08/2009
Posts: 3283

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 19:56

measey - it's run largely by volunteers. With all due respect, perhaps you don't appreciate the scale of the problem in TRNC regarding unwanted animals?

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 19:59

Couldnt leave a dog to fend for itself.I would sooner have it put to sleep,

Paul.

measey


Joined: 07/02/2009
Posts: 1037

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 20:00

Vidal . the mission starts today lets see what develops.My thinking caps is on i will help with promoting and funding this is worth the effort take strenght from others that have achieved good things in the trnc Nurseawful to name one.



Keith.

measey


Joined: 07/02/2009
Posts: 1037

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 20:02

Hi Jeannie . Respect your views and maybe you will be proved right so are you saying its not worth bothering.



Keith.

taraspring


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 571

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 20:02

I do realise the scale of the problem. I agree with the euthanasia because I feel it would be kinder to the animal in the long run. But if KAR are not going to do this - then it needs another band of volunteers to set it up and implement it for it to work, and try and re-home/find foster carers for the pups. There surely must be enough people interested in joining forces for the long term good of the animals?

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 20:02

Measey,

Do you live in trnc, if not how will you be able to do anything.Good luck though,

Paul.

Vidal


Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 867

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 20:06

Well, you are a brave man. You will have plenty of helpers and volunteers if you can do anything. But..before you start anything you need to come here and look at the problem yourself. Its something we all see on a daily basis and it would be a shame to start something that couldnt be finished or end up in a situation like BARK seems to have done.

measey


Joined: 07/02/2009
Posts: 1037

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 20:06

Hi Paul . Why would i not be able to help just because i dont live in the TRNC .



Keith.

measey


Joined: 07/02/2009
Posts: 1037

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 20:10

Vidal. point taken but cant believe its impossible.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 20:11

Just think it would be better to be more hands on dont you,

Paul.

Vidal


Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 867

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 20:19

Message 18



No not impossible, but you need suitable premises far enough away from residential areas, kennels and runs, heat, water, electric, building for storage and sick animals, food, vets, volunteers, phone lines, transport, leads, muzzels, bowls, bedding...How on earth?



(Have you ever visited Wood Green animal Sanctuary near Cambridge by the way)



All we really need here is the vets to put to sleep the sick and elderly dogs and cats. That would make room for the ones who have a chance of a new home.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 20:19

With all due respect: the problem is far beyond the solution(s) mentioned above. If you do not quite understand the problem, please first read this board or ask for more information. Half measures have been suggested in the past 4-5 years - nothing happened. We've crossed the line and only acknowledging that will be a helpful step towards a solution.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 20:28

This may sound awful and sorry if i offend anybody,and believe it or not i am an animal lover and have pets of my own.What is needed is a mass cull of all stray animals.Full time wardens then need to be employed to take care of the situation.Changing the culture of the island is paramount but this will take years.Just my thoughts,

Paul.

britvic



Joined: 05/09/2008
Posts: 3039

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 20:41

Paul, you are so right. Measey I too am an animal lover having pets of my own however, imaging driving down the main road of your town and every couple of yards a dog crosses you path or, sitting at an outside eatery and having a pack of dogs or even cats (they do pack over there) begging for food or even just a drink. That is exactly what its like there.

Every where you go in NC there are dogs and cats.

Jeannie


Joined: 04/08/2009
Posts: 3283

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 21:00

Keith - no, I don't think it's not worth the bother; however, I do know, for example, how much red tape, jumping through hoops, etc., KAR had to go through years ago in an attempt to become a registered charity.



In the meanwhile, I wish you all the luck in the world - believe me, you'll need it and more.



Hans - agree totally and you have our support in any future endeavours. Surely anything to improve these poor creatures' plights' will be better than nothing.



Jean

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 21:07

If you are interested in this thread: may I suggest you also follow and write your opinion in this thread: [DOGS] A belated Christmas Carol (2) - a complaint against KAR: http://www.cyprus44.com/forums/28549.asp

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 00:13

I say just watch this space. Measey you can email if you wish but by god my blinkers are already off (new yeaers resulition) but the help i had from kar none has made me detirmened. I do my little bit to help the souls its now got out of hand. Do I ignore and become the joke I was accused of by the lady who would take Holly and put her on the street or shoot her after 3 weeks. well by god she did me a FAVOUR

measey


Joined: 07/02/2009
Posts: 1037

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 13:41

Hi. Lilli. very sad to see you on your but also respect the other forum members opions , i will get back to you by way of e-mail in future and will make contacts in the uk and keep in touch with you.



Regards. Keith.

measey


Joined: 07/02/2009
Posts: 1037

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 13:44

Paul. maybe your right still doesnt stop me trying , and maybe there is already someone living in the TRNC that i can help or at least try.



Keith.

measey


Joined: 07/02/2009
Posts: 1037

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 13:48

Paul. sorry sent twice,

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 14:31

Vidal msg 4



There is an animal sanctuary here but the policy is NOT to euthanise here so every dog you take in you have for their life. Its not like the UK where if they are not claimed after a certain time they are put to sleep.





There is no such policy, it is KAR's policy, they do not want to euthanise, why would they, the problem is solvable with the right person in charge of KAR. This is a relatively small problem compared to other parts of the world, the TRNC is tiny and would be easy to sort out.



Euthanasia is the only answer but then what would KAR do?



I also do not believe all those who work for KAR are animal lovers, what animal lover do you know that drives a van and chucks a dog out of the back and drives off with the poor thing chasing it.



Nueter and return is just plain wrong, but every stray that get poisoned or injured or whatever gets taken to the vet by a brit, it is a money making machine. The more strays the more goes to KAR and the vets.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 14:49

Has there always been a 'Dog' problem here or has it escalated since the influx of the 'brits'?

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 14:51

I'm with the 'mass cull brigade'

MsGarnet


Joined: 04/01/2009
Posts: 989

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 14:55

Quite clearly KAR has to change its policy and euthanase any dog not adopted or recovered from them within - say - a month. To NOT adopt this policy in the face of the appalling amount of feral waifs and strays is unkind, the total reverse of being an animal lover.........a mass cull really is the only answer - not shedloads of money - keeping feral animals cooped up unless and until someone takes a fancy to them - clear the streets - and start again......

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 14:57

Msgarnet. Totally agree.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 14:59

How do KAR raise funds to support themselves?

joanie1


Joined: 25/07/2008
Posts: 164

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 18:47

It would be so very much kinder to painlessly put to sleep the poor unfortunate dogs we see wandering the streets hungry and thirsty and desperate for someone to love them. When I once said to the lady in charge at KAR that putting dogs out on the streets to fend for themselves was really cruel and callous she told me that vets here will not put down a healthy animal. I couldn't argue the point and also have to think that without KAR what would the situation be like and it is a fact that their refuge is full to bursting point. I suppose we should also ask - what is a healthy animal? Some of the poor near skeletons roaming around don't look too healthy to me! If somebody is brave enough to try and sort out the problem they'll have everyone's full support.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 20:20

Some vets will euthanise, some wont as it will harm their business, sick dogs and brits equates to loadsa money for them.



No1, they don't the brits support them.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 20:28

Dee. It's obvious then that the Brits supporting them clearly are happy with the current situation!

stellasstar1



Joined: 02/07/2008
Posts: 1519

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 22:09

I have always disagreed with KAR'a policy of putting animals back on the street, but I have to admit I hadn't thought about it in the context of message 31. Yes, what animal lover would turn an animal out of a car and drive off, leaving them looking helplessly after the departing car, or even worse chasing it.

taraspring


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 571

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 22:29

So after all these posts, can we actually have a Poll on the future for these poor animals?

Can we offer support to whoever is brave enough to approach this subject?

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 22:55

Bring them to me.I'll put them out of their misery.

I'll sort out the dogs after.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 23:06

So after most of these turning up on my step what do we decide my gurss we are powerless. I will maintain my standard to rehome as many as I can and I challenge KAR to tell me the percentage as they claim 200 dogs now in this year how many homed for real not fostered 10 per cent would be good. how many died in care please give us the facts

taraspring


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 571

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 23:15

Yorgozlu I really dont understand your solution? Can you elaborate? Are you for this or against it?

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 23:34

taraspring;

When I suggested that these stray dogs...or what I thought of kar,while ago,everyone turned against me and called ma heartless so and so...



So,now I am just taking the .......



As they say in english



You made your bed,now.......

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 23:47

yorg we need you xx

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 00:28

Yorg. You are the man! Send all the dogs to Yorg at once.

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 00:30

Bill



I am with you on message 33

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 00:40

First thing is first Bill,

I would first have the ones that realy deserves to be punnished,so,2 legged ones in the front.

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 00:44

Yorg



yep you are so right, as much as I would like to own a dog I can not do it as I know because of my wondering lifestyle it would not be for ever..........some people really do need to think of the pets long term needs rather than thier own short term needs.

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 01:35

Vidal message 4



"Its not like the UK where if they are not claimed after a certain time they are put to sleep."



Thought we could have one thread at least that didnt slag the UK off. Dogs in the UK are not necessarily put down.



The NCDL of which I am a member does not euthanize ANY dog , . Our dogs are neutered, rehomed, or if behaverable problems preclude it, spend the rest of their lives in our kennels being looked after in a loving manner by dedicated staff.If anyone is interested the dogs that cant be rehomed can be adopted.

We dont need to take any lessons from Cyprus North and South on the treatment of dogs, thank you very much.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 08:16

Girne 29 no the uk could teach the trnc. I only wish I had the money to set a centre up happy new year to you all xxx

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 08:34

Lilli;

re msg52;

Yea,you are wright,UK could teach TRNC how to deal with these animal(dogs) problems.

In Uk,people chucking out their animals or mistreating them are "named and shamed",where else here,everyone just plays "pass the bug".



One thing everyone must realise is that,until the Brits arrived,the problem regarding the dogs was dealt with by the locals(one way or another).



With all due respect to you Lilli;out of all the dogs you rescue,how many of them would you keep at home?One or two,and the rest has to go!Why?Simple,because there is just too many for you,wright?Atherwise,you wouldnt be on the forum day and night looking to "rehome them",wright?



I have just bought a 6.5 donums to built a house on it,the first thing my wife asked for;1 donum for herself to get more dogs,I said,KISS MY A**E.



Enough is enough.Try working out the meaning of that.



Happy new year.I shall be sipping my raki tonight with my dogs next to me.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 08:43

Hi yorg. I have taken 4 to my home and love the bones of them all. i have found good homes already for 17 dogs and 7 kittens. Now Dylan and Holly need to be homed along wit the two street dogs. I never put them back on the street and i never would. I only wish I had the resourses to open a centre for them.Happy new year to you both xxxxx

zanky


Joined: 17/10/2008
Posts: 354

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 10:21

I was a founder member of KAR along with several of my friends, although we have not been active members for a long time as we did not agree with some of the things that were happening we think the comments on here are grossly unfair. Years ago before KAR the treatment of animals here and the carnage on the roads in the mornings from the night before were unbelievably distressing. It seems to be a game with younger men to deliberately aim their cars at the cats and dogs which are out at night. KAR have had to work under many limitations, we are after all in a muslim country, but gradually they have arrived as some kind of control. I dont necessarily agree with the releasing of strays back into the streets, I had 5 dumped outside my door by KAR - now down to two as two were poisoned and one has vanished. They are a nuisance and I already have 6 strays I have adopted over the years, the oldest one 14 years ago and the youngest 5 months ago. cont....

zanky


Joined: 17/10/2008
Posts: 354

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 10:26

All of the local vets have had enough of killing healthy animals just because they are strays. What are KAR to do? They no longer have the room or the money to keep them up at the centre, the government and the vets wont do anything. Whenever me and my friends find animals in need of help Margaret Ray and Kar have always tried to help in anyway they can. Why dont those of you who are so vocal pulling down all the years of hard work put in by so many volunteers put your money and time where your mouth is and go and do something to help.

bridie


Joined: 18/09/2008
Posts: 308

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 12:06

Well said Barbara, my sentiments entirely.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 12:33

RE msg 56, zanky: I am *not* talking KAR down - I appreciate the good work which is a big part of KAR's activities. This said I would like you to contradict me now: KAR neuters dogs (or have them neutered) and put them back on the streets. Because vets don't want to put 'healthy' dogs down, you say. So many dogs starve to death, live a sad life in and around towns and villages and in the mountains or die on the road. What good do people do who support this?! Closing your eyes for the truth has never been a good policy. What is so wrong to state that KAR may be on the wrong track? Or suggest to look for a different solution? Are we dangerous KAR enemies - just because of talking about the problems? Problems *everybody* can see who is not willingly blind for the situation out there. Out of sight of KAR that obviously is.

zanky


Joined: 17/10/2008
Posts: 354

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 14:12

What I am trying to point out that it is not necessarily KAR`s wish to not put dogs down. KAR`s original charter was based on the RSPCA one which did include the realistic fact that after a length of time in "care" an animal should be deemed as un-homeable and should be put to sleep.That issue was blocked not by KAR but was decided by the government and the vets. KAR has always tried to change laws for the betterment of the animals here, with petitions and patient talking to the authorities and an education programme. At the end of the day most of KAR members and volunteers and also people commenting on here are not citizens and cannot force any issue socially or politically. From what I have seen on here it is not just a case of talking KAR down but you are dividing the community of people who are animal lovers willing to work and spend their hard earned money for the sake of the animals. Between myself and two friends we have 46 dogs, sheep, goats, cats, donkeys, tortoises geese.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 14:26

RE msg 59, zanky: (...) What I am trying to point out that it is not necessarily KAR`s wish to not put dogs down. (...)

=> I believe you, but it would help when KAR would state this in public - or have I missed it?

(...) should be put to sleep.That issue was blocked not by KAR but was decided by the government and the vets. (...)

=> Can you tell us more about this decision? When, why, officially?

(...) From what I have seen on here it is not just a case of talking KAR down but you are dividing the community of people (...)

=> If you mean me when you write 'you' you're wrong. Our goal is the same, but some or many here think that looking at the problem from old and most certainly new angles can't hurt anyone. Speedmeters and the smoking ban didn't come out of the blue either. Continuation of the problem and silence about it don't help.

zanky


Joined: 17/10/2008
Posts: 354

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 14:55

Sorry had to break off. The point I was trying to make is that my friends and I did not feel able to look after the animals en masse. It was a gigantic problem and needed patient work to achieve the great strides that it has. KAR is run by and for volunteers and should be democratic - it can be improved and your voice can be heard. You only have to speak to their office and find out when their meetings are and go along and maybe make a difference. Over the last year or two it seems to be the fashion to just knock KAR but not to try to contribute. It would be a shame not build upon it.

measey


Joined: 07/02/2009
Posts: 1037

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 16:05

speak to Lilli.



Keith

zanky


Joined: 17/10/2008
Posts: 354

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 16:20

sorry I don`t understand why I should speak to Lilli

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 16:20

It is not the Government that refuse to allow dogs to be euthanised it is KAR and the vets, because they make money out of the misery of the poors suffering souls, stop blaming everyone other than KAR and the vets.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 17:25

Zanky, I'm still very interested in your answers to my questions in message 60. Thank you.

zanky


Joined: 17/10/2008
Posts: 354

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 18:41

As I said I am not now a member of KAR preferring to look after animals in my life my way. (Perhaps it may be because I dont have the guts to look after all the animals that they do) I do know that the charter of KAR did include euthanasia. I have talked to vets and was involved enough to know that the government will not allow a programme of mass culling by non-citizens. You have the right to talk to KAR and find out what their aims and policies are. They have an office that is easy to find and people who would be only too happy to talk to you. They were and are the only effective group doing anything about the animals and you should in all fairness find out from them what you can do to help. Without the vets co-operation what would you be able to do - dig a big pit up in the mountains and take all the dogs up there as you round them up to be shot?

zanky


Joined: 17/10/2008
Posts: 354

Message Posted:
03/01/2010 15:38

and by the way were any of you here when the Belediyesi decided to cull? They wenr out into the streets with guns and shot any dog they saw. Several beloved pets were killed and it was a terrible sight for anyone unfortunate enough to be out.

everon


Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 956

Message Posted:
03/01/2010 15:54

OMG when was that x

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
03/01/2010 17:03

I tend to try and stay away from these discussions but ...



First off for those that argue that the 'humane' and 'moral' way to solve the HUMAN problem of not wanting to see feral animals around them becuase it upsets those HUMANS to do so is to KILL healthy and viable animals are full of shit. It is no more 'humane' to kill a healthy animal because it will probably have a life of suffering, pain and limited lifespan than it is to kill a human for the same reason. There are hundreds of thousands if not millions of children around the world living 'feral' without homes doomed to a life of near certain suffering illness and pain uncared for and unloved - KILLING them is NOT a humane or moral solution.



For those advocating 'euthenasia' of HEALTHY animals have the guts and honesty to talk plainly and honestly. The proposal is a practical one for the benefit of HUMANS and NOT a moral one for the benefit of those animals you propse killing.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
03/01/2010 17:10

Secondly to those like deecyprus4 who constantly claim that the vets in the TRNC and KAR WANT to see animals in distress and the more the better because that means more money for them - your post are as disgusting and deflamatory as they are untrue. You disgust me.

measey


Joined: 07/02/2009
Posts: 1037

Message Posted:
04/01/2010 20:19

speak to Lilli.



Keith.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
04/01/2010 20:33

RE msg 68, zanky: (...) They wenr out into the streets with guns and shot any dog they saw. Several beloved pets were killed (...)

=> My dogs are not shot, because they are in the garden and not set free on the streets.



RE msg 70/71, Erolz: I respect your view, although you use remarkable rough language, but I disagree. Just one question: what is your solution? We don't need philosophical views and thoughts but right now: a couple of kennels for Liz Spina - who suffers the consequences of your view.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
04/01/2010 20:41

Erolz, you disgust me even more, you have not a clue, you cannot compare animals with humans in the way that you do. Euthanasia is the only answer, how many dogs do you have or take in that are in danger?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
05/01/2010 04:08

Deecyprus4



The principal is EXACTLY the same. If your argument is that it is the moral or humane thing to do to kill something because its prospects of a happy and contented life are extremely low then that would apply to humans as well as animals. It is NOT a moral or humane soloution to kill viable healthy animals. It may well be a pratical one that meets the needs of HUMANS but it is not what is 'best' for those animals you propose to kill. It is just BS to pretent that you want to kill these animals for THIER sake.



What disgusts me about you however is not your views on this subject but your constant untrue deflamatory alleagations about KAR and vets in north Cyprus WANTING to see animlas in distress and WANTING more of them because it is profitable to them. That is simply a most disgusting lie that you repeat over and over.



How many cats and dogs have I taken in of the streets ? More than most and I would bet a large amount that its more than YOU have !

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
05/01/2010 04:25

erolz if you are going to throw insults then expect a few batted back, I would hazard a guess that you either work for or have connections with KAR...bet I'm right.



Thankfully I don't have to deal with you in any capacity. Goodnight and don't expect any further replies from me, you truly disgust me.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
05/01/2010 04:43

Yes I have 'connections' to KAR and I have never hidden this fact. I know many of the people involved in it as well as several of the TRNC vets and so I KNOW just how disgusting and repugnant your constantly repeated lies about them are.



I have thrown no insults. I have expressed my views plainly and clearly. What I have not done and do not do , unlike yourself, is repeatedly throw around defamatory lies about whole groups of people. That is disgusting behaviour. Pointing this out is not an insult, its just the plain truth.



I could not care less if you 'reply' to me ever again but if you continue to spread defamatory lies about KAR and TRNC vets I will continue to point out how disguting such behaviour on your part is.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
05/01/2010 05:15

This is my last reply to you...I dont think all vets are the same, the couple I use are excellent., as in all things there is good and bad.



From your attack you seem to suggest that I am alone in my condemnation of KAR, believe me I am not. Goodnight.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
05/01/2010 05:47

Deecyprus critism of KAR and its policy as well as vets in north cyprus is one thing but you do something very different from that. You repeatedly assert as fact that KAR and the VETS in north cyprus WANT to see suffering animals on the streets and the more the better as this makes them money. This is NOT critism, this is just an outreagous defamatory lie. It is just not true. That is the behaviour that is disgusting. Others do occasionaly appear to concur with your defamatory lies about KAR and vets in North Cyprus but you are the one that pushes these lies more than anyone else, over and over again. You sit behind your keyboard and your nickname and you slander organisations and indivduals. Like I say disgusting behaviour in my opinion.

measey


Joined: 07/02/2009
Posts: 1037

Message Posted:
05/01/2010 20:22

then you need to speak to her dont you.



Keith.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 01:00

Hi i think im to blame here. I would never see an animal hurt or starved, im only sorry KAR can never helpme and i have tried so maby times. My real worry at the moment is the survival and safety of the brother and sister strays. they love each other so much. I did ask KAR to remove them from the restaurant but to no avail. They told me the days they put them back but no luck otherwise. sxo istil have them and being a nuisance to th other shops. its a matter of time now. Thier death another graph if they keep details another stastic. Today a custome came in who went to KAR must have been a bad dayas swhe wanted a puppy most dead parvo.Thats sad given the access to vets. When I found Blackjack with his stomach ripped oprn I phoned KAR no help. I took him to Pertev who operated and he got parvo. We got him through it. He came home and 10 days later got destemper. See him now he is a beaut. the reason i say this myvet begged me not to take him to KAR.They are born in strabge circumstances

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 01:09

if thet survive its a life onthe street. if kar find you you will never reproduce and will find your self under a car or poisioned. I went to the centre and saw a lovely dog after mav died. I asked how long he had ben there 3 years on a chaon with such a small walk, im surprise he had a muscle left. Thats what happens they get institunionilized. they will never go anywhereso just make the room. KAr YOU HAVE HAD A HOUSE DONATED sell it and get another centre please x Do the rigt thing by these animals. 98 per cent die from parvo there thats scary when you all have vets on hand. i haD MY DOG SURVIVE IT. sO YOU GIVE PUPPIES AWAY KNOWING THEY COULD DIE X

kaiserphil


Joined: 14/12/2008
Posts: 1096

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 02:09

Lilli - "Hi i think im to blame here" - no way darling. Forget that, who could be more caring than you?

I recall that one of the reasons I left TRNC is that I would have ended up with more pets than I could cope with!

Then I would have been there for evermore.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 08:16

Lilli it can be very hard understanding your post sometimes.



If your problem is having to SEE feral animals near you then yes having any near you taken away and put in a compound run and funded by someone else is a soloution for you, as is having someone else kill those animals out of your sight. However if your concern is the best possible life for those animals then neither putting them in a compound or killing them is a soloution. Of course the best soloution for the animals is to have them homed in a good home and no person or organisation has done that more than KAR. However the reality is that such an optimal soloution is only possible for a tiny fraction of all the animals that need such. For the rest of the feral animals that can not be found homes there are only less than ideal options. Kill them, put them in a compound or treat neuter and return them to streets. this is the reality.



[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 08:23

You seem to be claiming that 98% of the dogs (puppies?) at the KAR center die from parvo ? If you are saying this it simply is not true. However it is true that cross infection of illnesses from animals is a constant problem when running a compound like the KAR one and this is just one of the reasons why putting animals in such a compound is not an ideal soloution if your concern is that animals quality of life.



You also seem to be under the impression that KAR have vast monetary resources and talk about them having houses donated and say they should open another center. Even if they had the kind of money you seem to think they have, which they do not, using it to open another ceneter is no soloution if your concern is welfare of feral animals. If KAR were to double its capcity for placing animals in compounds it would also double its ongoing day in day out costs to support such numbers and for what ? Even if the dogs near you now were to be placed in this new compound



[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 08:29

they qulaity of life they would have there would be arguably no better than they currently have and in any case in another 6 months you would have new feral animals near you again, needing to be taken away by KAR.



KAR building more compounds, even if they could afford to, is just no soloution.



KAR are no different from yourself or myself. We all do the best we can when and where we can with the limited resources we have and still that is not enough to enusre that every dog or cat in North Cyprus lives a happy and contented life and it never will be. Constantly bashing KAR and making out they could solve the problem but do not out of either incompetance or malice or greed does nothing to help animals in North Cyprus.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 09:17

RE mag 85/87, erolz: (...) this is the reality. (...)

=> Exactly. I wish you'd read the opinion of a British vet (retired, living here, knowing the problem), given in another thread. I think he's more qualified than all of us in this thread to give an expert opinion. http://www.cyprus44.com/forums/28549.asp (msg 63).

=> Before you turn this thread in a propaganda book for KAR I'd like to update you on the reality. Yesterday the two dogs in Lilli's unofficial care (who else?) narrowly escaped death. They crossed the Girne-Lapta road when someone was walking his dogs on the other side of the road. Cars stopped and when I opened my eyes again the dogs were still alive and no car accidents had happened. Just. Erolz, dogs belong in a garden and/or house and not free on the road and streets.

P.S. I don't join accusations or insinuations in this thread which I cannot prove - let's all try to keep this a clean discussion about facts. They are sad enough.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 09:30

DC in the thread you mention I can only see a post from a wife of a VET and the point she seems to be making is that dogs that have never known a 'home life' fare better feral than dogs that were orginal owned and lived in a home and then had that taken away from them. So what is the status of these particular two dogs in this regard ?



As for KAR propaganda where have I done that ? I find it a grossly unfair claim to say I am pushing propaganda.



As for the two dogs being at risk living feral. Of course they are at risk. Of course dogs should be homed but saying such does not make it possible to home all dogs that need it. The fact is these dogs to NOT have homes. So you can kill them as a solution but that is NOT one that is better for the dogs than how they currently are in my view. You can leave them feral without vet treatment and unnutered. You can give them vet treatement neuter them and return them. None of these are ideal but some better than others.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 09:43

RE msg 89, erolz: (...) So you can kill them as a solution but that is NOT one that is better for the dogs than how they currently are in my view. (...)

=> This is where we have a different opinion and that's why some people (I don't know yet how many board members share your or my opinion) want at least discuss (the possibilities) of alternatives for the current situation. Including the obviously overcrowded situation at KAR, where dogs are kept until... Yes, until what and when..?!

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 09:44

good morning erolz. I read and appreciate all you say about KAR, but i got very upset yesterday when i was told how many die, and then another customer telling me she went to get a puppy and saw so many dead. these two community dogs are a very big worry to me. As Dc states its the main road i am afraid off, they walked with me when i took holly for her walk, then followed a man walking his dog and crossed the road.On KARS advice I have frontlined them and given them worming tablets. I do not know what to do with them. M chances of rehoming them is getting more remote.Thier safety and survival is paramouth to me. if i could find homes for holly and dylan i would keep them.. I never want to see an animal die

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 09:50

Killing healthy viable animals IS a solution but it is a solution to the problem for HUMANS not for the animal killed, at least in my view. I can understand the argument that for a animal that has known a home life and then is made feral such a feral existance is much worse for that animal than for one that has never known a home life. I can even understand the argument that death is better than a feral life for such an animal, though personaly I am not sure this is true but can understand the argument.



I am also of the view that control of feral populations by means of systematicaly killing large numbers healthy animals is something that seriously needs to be looked at in North Cyprus, though I do not pretend that this is something that is good for those animals killed. Nor do I beleive that if such a program is to be implemented in North CYprus it is something that KAR should set up or run.



[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 09:57

Lilli I understand that having to see these two dogs living at risk is upsetting. The chances are that sooner or later if they are not homed they will get hit by a car. If you or others can not find a home for them then it is very hard to know what to do, there are no easy answers, not for you or for KAR for that matter. You also need to accept I think that even if you find homes for these two sooner or later new ones will appear and the problem will start all over again. That is just the reality, it is upsetting but that is the way it is.

nurseawful



Joined: 06/02/2009
Posts: 5934

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 10:14

I normally keep quiet on the subject of feral animals but this time I have a point to make, on the possible human consequences of these dogs being on the streets.



Dogs are pack animals and will, and do run here in packs. When dogs are hungry, same as humans, they will do anything for food even kill!



Do we have to wait for a child to be torn apart by these feral dogs as happened in Bulgaria last year or do we do something about it NOW!



I personally would rather something done now rather than wait and hear of a human being ravished by a pack of animals.



Chris

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 10:16

RE msg 93, erolz: (...) That is just the reality, it is upsetting but that is the way it is. (...)

=> Erolz, it looks like we agree that there IS a problem, never mind the angle we are looking at it. But I don't buy "that this is the way it is - final". Not long ago there were no speedometers (trying to make the TRNC roads safer) and there was no smoking ban. Acceptance of a situation doesn't change the situation - exchanging facts and views and reasonably discussing alternatives eventually MAY cause changes.

nurseawful



Joined: 06/02/2009
Posts: 5934

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 10:19

Erolz,



On a final note Lilli can't do any more than she is doing , she feeds these strays, gives them shelter, re homes them when possible, takes them to the vets, frontlines and worms them. Where do you think any profit from the restaurant goes certainly not on anything new for Lilli and Guiodo. They are only ordinary people trying to run a business not millionaires and never will be at this rate.



I have been there on numerous occasions when Lilli has phoned KAR to no avail, you would think that after the numerous times they received phone calls from her about these dogs that they would have a heart and give her some help.!!



Chris

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 10:19

Erolz I said I wouldn't respond but you talk absolute rubbish, you think it is better for an animal to get run over and die in pain than to euthanise, get a grip man.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 10:34

DC I have repeatedly said now I personally am more than willing to accept the systematic killing of healthy animals as a means of control of feral populations in North Cyprus. I just do not accept the argument that such a plan is for those animals benefit and not ours, nor do I think such a program should be run by KAR but should be run by the state.



Nurseawful - I totaly respect arguments re feral population control as a means of meeting OUR (human) needs. I just dont accept it is a means of meeting the needs of those animals that you kill thats all.



I understand Lillie can do no more than she is doing, just as I can do no more than I already do for ferals here. Expecting KAR to do something is no more realistic than expecting Lilli or me personaly to do more. IF KAR could find space for these two in the shelter, they probably will have a lower quality of life than they do now but possibly for longer but it would mean two other dogs elsewhere are on the street and not



[cont

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 10:39

in the shelter and in a few months time there will be another 2 dogs in the same situation living feral near Lilli. KAR have no more of a magic wand or ability to solve these problems than anyone else. Should Lilli get prefernetial treatment ? This time ? Next time ? For ever ?



Deecyprus4 these animals currently have life and assuming they have never known a different existance a relative contented one. They may have this life for a week, a month, 6 months or years. Yet you seem convinced that it is better for them to have no life at all than have this uncertain life for an uncertain persiod of time. I find that a suprious argument myself. Yes they may get hit by a car and if they do and are in pain then that is the time to kill them, not now in my view.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 10:48

Erolz you think a starving dog or cat is a contented one, jeez are you for real, I really cannot be bothered to read your utter crap any longer, I suggest you get some help cos IMO you are sick mate.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 10:55

DC4 and Erolz: this way of communicating is contra-productive - it doesn't bring a solution to the problem any nearer. Call it a day, please.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 11:04

deecyprus4 just more emotive unrational claptrap from you. The fact is these dogs are NOT starving and are in essentialy good health. Yes they are at risk living as they currently do but they are not starving or ill. If you really think that what is best for them is that they be put down there is nothing stopping you from having that done. I suspect however that what you want is for someone else to make the problem just disapear without you having to do anything and when KAR does not fulfill that desire for you you resort by slandering it repeatedly on these forums. That appears to be the sort of 'caring' pewrson you are as far as I can see.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 11:18

Not starving lmao now I know you are a bloody joke, ask Lilli how many bags of bones she has found, not to mention the ones I have and the one that turned up in my garden last week with a chain embedded in its neck...go away you idiot.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 11:19

Hans I will comply with your wishes as I cant be bothered to even try and reason with an idiot like erolz, I will say no more.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 11:35

Deecyprus4 are there feral animals in north cyprus that are underfed and starving ? Of course there are. Are the two living near Lilli that we are discussing here underfed and starving ? No they are not. You can call me an idot all you like that does not change the reality at all. You want two healthy dogs killed but not to have to do it yourself, yet you will not admit that is because of YOUR needs but insist on trying to convince yourself and others that you want them killed for THEIR benefit and at the same time you slander and slate KAR and the motives of those running and working within it, along with vets in the TRNC. If you said no more no one would be happier about that than me, yet we both know I think that the chances of that being true are remote.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 11:40

Sigh, sigh, sigh.

itfc1978


Joined: 31/03/2009
Posts: 187

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 12:00

you can sigh all you like, the only person talking any sense onhere is Erolz.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 12:03

RE msg 107, itfc1978: C'est le ton qui fait la musique.

itfc1978


Joined: 31/03/2009
Posts: 187

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 12:06

What the hell, has Black Sabbath got to do with it!

itfc1978


Joined: 31/03/2009
Posts: 187

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 12:10

Just thinking about it AC/DC do a tasty litlle number called Dog eat Dog



Perhaps that`s the answer.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 12:16

C'est le ton qui fait la musique



literaly



It's the tone that makes the music



what it means



It's not what you say, but how you say it.



If I were running for some sort of elected position or came to these forums to make friends then maybe how I said things would matter more than what I am actualy trying to say but for me I am not comming here for those reasons. What actually got me started posting again was deecyprus4's repeated outreagous slanders against KAR and TRNC vets than no one else seem to want to challenge, so that drew me in. Since then I have done nothing more than express my views as clearly as I can. If you prefer not to consider those views because of the 'tone' then so be it that is your choice. I make no appologies for my tone.

Geejay


Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 475

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 18:01

Quite agree itfc1978. Erolz has produced a well reasoned answer to the critics of KAR who are doing their best in difficult circumstances. But it's useless arguing about who or what is to blame.

For there to be a solution, this situation can not be left up to those soft hearted but misguided individuals who think that all strays and ferals should be adopted or "re homed". It's just not feasible. And leaving them on the street to risk life and limb is not an option in the long run.

Since KAR and many veterinarians decline to put healthy animals to sleep, then there has to be a national policy directed by central or local government to euthanise street dogs and cats following a period of offering for adoption. To make this happen needs pressure put on government through negotiation by an organised group, preferably one that already exists and has contacts at bureaucratic level.

mitsi


Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 345

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 20:35

msg 109. Are you sure that KAR decline euthanasia? I feel you need to investigate this statement.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 20:59

Mitsi the poster in msg 109 says that KAR decline to put down HEALTHY animals and this is by in large true. I do know of instances where healthy VIOLENT or DANGEROUS animals have been put down but this is excpetional.



KAR does have animals put down but what it does not do is systematic destruction of animals as a means of controling the numbers of stray and feral animals in north cyprus.



Those vets that will put down terminaly sick animals in pain, or in exceptional cases violent animals would not agree to systematic destruction of vast numbers of animals as a means of population control. Also it is a fact that the best drug in terms of humanely putting down animals can not be legaly imported into the TRNC. In reality it is smuggled in in various ways in small quantites to meet the needs of putting down terminaly ill and old animals but this is done at some risk to those doing it.

Tatum1


Joined: 23/03/2009
Posts: 337

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 22:04

Which drug are you talking about?

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 22:26

Where do KAR bury the bodies.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
06/01/2010 22:47

Tatum1 I do not know the name of the drug offhand.



Lilli I do not know what happens to the bodies.