TRNC PM answers property issue & problems questions

rtddci


Joined: 29/12/2007
Posts: 842

Message Posted:
04/06/2008 00:26

Back in March Marian Stokes of the Home Buyers Pressure Group met with the TRNC PM and submitted a list of issues and questions for him to answer i.e. re permission to purchase, legality of contracts etc.

He has now sent his replies see:

http://www.hbpg-trnc.net/documents/PMmeeting_060308.html



Martin

spook


Joined: 23/01/2008
Posts: 244

Message Posted:
04/06/2008 00:43

When will the TRNC Government start to implement some these answers?

rtddci


Joined: 29/12/2007
Posts: 842

Message Posted:
04/06/2008 00:59

In mho they have failed to address the very real issues and failed to answer the questions. It is a real shame that the PM does not appear to have grasped the situation nor appreciated or addressed the misery both emotionally and financially that people have suffered.

Opinions?

Martin

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
04/06/2008 01:02

Hi All,



Is it me? I just don't feel comfortable or reassurred by the responses. " Teflon" is a

word that comes readily to mind. Perhaps its in the translation. Anyone else feel the same?

I will be interested to hear Marions take, on it all.



wyn

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
04/06/2008 01:05

rtddci,



Exactly! Thank heaven for your posting. I thought I was loosing "the plot" for a moment.



wyn

rtddci


Joined: 29/12/2007
Posts: 842

Message Posted:
04/06/2008 01:18

Wyn

I can reassure you that you are not 'losing the plot'. I had to read the 'answers' (if one can call them that) twice myself.

Martin

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
04/06/2008 08:55

Perhaps there are a few points in there that offer "official" confirmation but who believes politicians answering questions anywhere in the world.



To be fair to Mr Soyer has did make the following statement - "It is common to see people buying property in other countries without knowing the existing rules governing properties and end up losing the whole property or battling in the court of law."



It is just an attempt to divert I know but he is 100% correct, look at the suggested figure of 10,000 properties in Spain that may have to be demolished. Or all those properties where there were mortgages and because people did not find out about the law they lost their homes.



I would suggest many here have bought without digging too deeply into the law so we all have some responsibilty. Before you ask, yes we are among those and have got used to living on a building site, paying extortionate rates for electric and receive tankered water!!!!!!!!!



One thing that has surprised me is how few people have made complaints to the Property Information Office. We have and if everyone who had a genuine, well documented complaint maybe the governement would have to respond and staff it correctly. Or get you life made a misery by your builder, but consider which is worst option.



Details are on the HBPG site and the PR lady at PIO speaks excellent English.

rtddci


Joined: 29/12/2007
Posts: 842

Message Posted:
04/06/2008 22:54

I cannot go along with the 'it happens elesewhere' theory, so does theft, murder etc, doesn't make it right.

Martin

ROBIN HOOD


Joined: 26/05/2008
Posts: 238

Message Posted:
04/06/2008 23:11

As far as I'm concerned the PIO was a complete waste of time. Nothing achieved. Any initiatives on that front must be backed by some kind of enforcement. "come to the table, or else". Here the "or else" is missing. The Kalashnikov is in the wrong hands.

Soyer's answers just show how little of the underlying problem is understood. Or may I suggest just how much wants to be understood. Whose pocket is it?

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
04/06/2008 23:18

A complete whitewash. Perhaps what has more meaning is what is not said? It just adds to the belief that the government are not doing anything constructive about the existing situation and could not care 2 figs about protecting purchasers in the TRNC. If you don't want to answer a question then simply divert, say its being discussed, examined or explored. Delaying or dismissing tactics.The word action does not appear, mainly because the government is not going to take any action.

PTP will continue to be a thorny issue and one that is out of our control. This could easily have been remedied with very little resources being necessary. Only willpower was needed but thats in very short supply in the TRNC government. Turkey has a much better system so why can't the same be adapted over here?

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
04/06/2008 23:56

I am really tired and dismayed repeating the same things and what is worse I hate the phrase "I told you so". The Complaints Office and the Constructors Union have no teeth. At the end of the day people must be able to go to court for the title deeds that they paid for. This they cannot do because of the Specific Performance Law. Registration was a very good thing and now the builders cannot threaten the buyers with "pay up or I will sell it to somebody else". However we have to get the Specific Performance Law changed so that the buyers can go all the was and sue the builders for title deeds. Nothing less will solve these problems.

Marian is doing a great job but now she must concentrate her efforts towards the amendment of the SP law.

ismet

rtddci


Joined: 29/12/2007
Posts: 842

Message Posted:
05/06/2008 00:28

How else can pressure be brought? Is it fair to leave it to others like Marian Stokes or the BRS? In the UK (or should I say in a truly democratic society) one can complain to MP's. Unpopular governments can be changed via the ballot box. In the TRNC do we even know who the MP's are? We don't have the vote so why should they be interested? Another avenue is challenging through the courts using a campaigning lawyer. Why can I hear someone saying 'You're having laugh ain't yer' on that last point.

Martin

Pugsey


Joined: 22/03/2008
Posts: 173

Message Posted:
05/06/2008 00:57

Have just read the link and am sad to say I get no reassurance from this as to how "problems" are to be solved, what disciplinary action will be taken and how it will be enforced. Until there is clear evidence that buyers are winning their disputes this will continue to be seen as just lip service to buyers rights.

I hope that Marion continues the good fight and continued progress is made.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
05/06/2008 01:23

Yet again we are indebted to Ismet for his wise counsel.

Would it be possible to share the cost of going to The Constitutional Court to seek the required Ammendment to The Specific Performance Law?

I believe we owe it to Marion Stokes to stand behind The HPBG, financially, and I for one would be prepared to contribute.



1 Ismet Your thoughts.

2 Marion Your thoughts

3 Timescale and estimate of costs

4 Likeleyhood of success



I think the postings above reflect just how frustrated homebuyers feel under the present rules, and it is about time we stood up to this wholly inadequate system .



THERE APPEARS TO BE A CLEAR WAY FORWARD AND IF WE DO NOT TAKE THIS POSITIVE STEP WE ONLY HAVE OURSELVES TO BLAME



wynyardman

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
05/06/2008 07:22

Wynyardman,

Going to the constitutional court is an option but knowing the judges there and their outlook, the chances of winning there is very slim. The court does not have the power to amend the law but it has the power to strike out certain paragraphs which is good enough. The procedure should be to sue a developer for the title deeds and then refer the matter to the Constitutional court on the basis that SP law is unconstitutional and has a bearing on the final result of the case. Anybody can do it but the file must include a claim to the title deeds and not just compensation.



I believe we have a better chance if we pool our efforts and campaign for an amendment along similar lines to what they did in the south i.e. lift the time limit and also give the courts the power to appoint someone in place of the developer and finish the project so that title deeds can be given. Please write to the newspapers about this and also raise this subject at every opportunity in order to raise awareness. YAVAS YAVAS!!!

ismet

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
05/06/2008 08:56

Got to disagree on PIO, maybe we are the exception.



Not yet fully sorted but making positive progress.



They do have one problem in which people think they are not being helped, that of communication. The staff are as guilty as most Cypriots and talking to other nationalities, they operate the same around the Med. They only ever contact when they have something to tell you!!!!!! Why waste energy to tell you there is nothing to say!



I know that is anathama to most people in UK but you have to try to get used to it. There is a thread on another BB asking for views on the topic - should people here adapt to immigrants and should people in UK do the same. I know what most think in the UK so why should Cypriots change to suit us.



Must add that I agree with Ismet's view of changing certain laws because that is appropriate to all in the country not just immigrants.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
05/06/2008 09:18

elko2,



Yet again I am indebted for your guidance.



Non of this advice is wasted. Despite every attempt on my part at reconcilliation,I can feel myself being drawn to the courts with my builder.



Each piece of advice given is another piece in" The TRNC legal crossword puzzle"



For months I have walked in the "fog" of misinformation which surrounds buying property in The TRNC, I have worked with Marion at the HPBG and sought your wise counsel also. I have been to and tried to work with The PCO. I can now see a way forward.



I intend to get what is stated on my contract. I intend to claim the penalties stated on my contract.I will pay what my builder demands to get the keys to my villa, for my family.



I will sue retrospectively for what was stated in my contract.



I will change my advocate, for one better suited to handle my case (thanks for the recommendations Ismet)



If nescessary I will sue for the deeds, and ask for The Specific Performance Law to be referred to The Constitutional Courts as it is unconstitutional in its existing form.



WHAT I WON'T DO, IS BE BULLIED BY THESE COWBOY BUILDERS.



wynyardman

breezyboy


Joined: 14/05/2007
Posts: 1179

Message Posted:
05/06/2008 12:52

Elco,

I received the following from my solicitor only this morning. Can you comment on his reply as to wether or not i can rely on specific performance of my contract with my developer who is hiding behind the fact that it takes years to get to court. Are there any quick ways to wake the sleeping giant of TRNC justice?





"Until the beginning of this year there was definitely no specific performance in the TRNC. As you are aware there were some changes to the legislation recently (which allowed us to register Contracts of Sale at the Land Registry Office), although it is still unclear whether this has brought in specific performance. The general consensus is that although this was desired and should have been introduced, it has not been. There are moves to modify the legislation in many ways and we await these modifications."



Thanks in advance

Breezyboy

rtddci


Joined: 29/12/2007
Posts: 842

Message Posted:
05/06/2008 16:41

"There are moves to modify the legislation in many ways and we await these modifications"

Can your solicitor expand or enlighten us on that?

Martin

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
05/06/2008 17:37

Breezyboy,

I am afraid your lawyer does not know what he/she is talking about. The Specific Performance law has remained the same since 2nd April 1885. According to that law you can sue for specific performance i.e. for title deeds only if you go to court within 2 years of the date of the contract. Nothing uncertain about it. What they are talking about is the likely amendment to the new law about the registration of Estate Agents and registration of contracts, who does what and the lack of penalties for not complying as it is now.

ismet

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
05/06/2008 17:38

sorry 2 months, not two years!!!

ismet

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
05/06/2008 17:45

elko2,



What is the exact ammendment that we need. Is it to remove the 2 month time limit? or

is it a more complex issue than that.



sorry to be a pain,



wyn

kibrissibel


Joined: 18/02/2008
Posts: 562

Message Posted:
05/06/2008 18:01

We agree with Ismet. The specific performance law needs amending so that buyers can take court action for their deeds. We have clear evidence that our developer, Lapis Developments, have threatened to withhold our Kocans.



Below is a copy of a letter that I sent to Cyprus Today, which was published about 2 months ago in the letters page:



"The new estate agency law is too little too late to protect people who have already bought property in the TRNC. Instead, when many purchasers are registering their contracts, they are finding that properties they have contractually paid for have been mortgaged, leaving their investments worthless unless the encumbrances are lifted. “It’s perfectly normal in the TRNC to mortgage the land” is a familiar phrase by the lawyers! Secondly, there are still no laws in place to protect buyers against unscrupulous builders/developers who are purposefully withholding Kocan’s for properties we have paid for. There are millions of pounds worth of KDV and property transfer tax owed to the government that buyers are ready and willing to pay for when they receive their Kocan’s, but cannot pay because the vendor will not transfer the title.



The answer to this is simple. The government needs to amend the specific performance law to allow buyers legal remedies to transfer the title if all else fails, but more importantly, they need to introduce new laws that will ensure that purchasers receive their title deeds within a reasonable time after taking possession. Vendors who fail to do this, or who are demanding extra payments, blackmailing, or threatening their customers, should have their construction licence revoked and severe penalties enforced against them. Intentionally taking out a mortgage on land that vendors have contractually sold should become a criminal offence of fraud, punishable by imprisonment. If vendors still fail to transfer the title the government should step in and enforce a transfer.



Most of us investing here have taken a chance on the TRNC because they love it. They haven’t been put off at the first hurdle by the South/North property compensation question mark; instead they have had faith in a country that no one outside of Turkey recognizes. Instead of being welcomed with open arms by the government, we are being repaid by possibly losing our life savings, effectively investing in something that unbeknownst to us has been mortgaged to the hilt, or we are unable to obtain the title deeds for. So, what’s the government going to do about it? It’s not rocket science after all, and enough is enough!



Some lawyers are equally responsible for putting our investments at risk by not informing us that our contracts are pretty much unenforceable. If we’d been told by them that we may never get our title deeds, that our property could be mortgaged, or that the vendor could breach it in every way but we’d have almost no recourse, who in their right minds would have signed it? If only a few people had been misinformed in this way then it could be considered negligence, but thousands of people have been deceived like this. That’s not negligence; it’s misrepresentation at the very least, or in my opinion, fraudulent deceit.



When will the powers that be realize that if they want people to keep investing here they need to protect one of their biggest assets: those who have already bought. There are reputable companies here, but sadly this situation will drag them down along with the cowboys."



Sibel

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
05/06/2008 18:25

Spoken like a true Brit Sibel!



Who's going to do it?

Is there an advocate up to it?

How much is it estimated to cost?

How long will it take?

Will The HPBG (poor Marion again) run with it on our behalf.



Well folks I am up for it. I will do my bit financially and otherwise as required.

Ismet I think we need your inspired thinking and guidance! Please



wynyardman

joandjelly


Joined: 24/02/2008
Posts: 2953

Message Posted:
05/06/2008 19:09

Do vendors refuse to pass title to Turkish Cypriot purchasers or is it generally just us foreigners who fall foul of this practice? I suspect I already know the answer and it speaks volumes that the question about PTP refusals was not answered by the PM.



Unfortunately, IMHO, it is in the Government's interests for foreigners not to be given title as they benefit from the investment without losing title to the land which ultimately will be of benefit in the event of any solution.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
05/06/2008 20:37

If I am wrong, please tell me.



What we need is a specimin case in court. We need The Judge to say " you have won" I am going to grant you compensation. Our advocate says" my client has paid for this property and he wants you to grant him the deeds. The judge says ' under the Specific Performance law of 1885, I cannot grant that. The law must be enforced within 2 months of signature on the contract. The advocate says 'sod me your honour, that is a breech of my clients constitutional rights." The judge says I am going to send this case to The Constitutional Court for a ruling.

The advocate then addresses tHe Constitutional Court, pleading that his clients constitutional rights have been denied, and seeks an ammendment to the said act.



Now then, the fog which is The TRNC legal system suddenly clears.



AGAIN IF I AM WRONG PLEASE TELL ME, THIS IS A PUBLIC FORUM!



If by any chance I am right, for heavens sake lets do it.



Marion Elko HPBG you are saints, and deserve more than we could ever give you.



Please Please....Who? Where? How much. ? Timescale? Your people need you.



Well at least youv'e got my E mail address.



Now then guys and gals they call us wingeing Brits. They are right! Lets do it now!!!



wynyardman

ajney


Joined: 30/04/2008
Posts: 40

Message Posted:
05/06/2008 21:27

I am coming over to look at property and am concerned that I am ill informed. Does anyone get their property deeds and if not why invest in the property? What is permission to buy and how long does it take. Does one have to wait until it is granted before starting the monetary buying procedure. I believe a Kocan is the title deed. What is the safest way to make a purchase and get o;ne of these elusive Kocan's. Can the property be sold without one? I would welcome some sensible advice i.e. only to buy property with a Turkish or foreign titel although reading the forum this also seems to present problems.

Many thanks

greenman


Joined: 16/02/2008
Posts: 526

Message Posted:
05/06/2008 21:42

ainey, Visit this site and you will feel better informed. http://www.hbpg-trnc.net/

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
05/06/2008 21:45

Well folks, let me answer a few questions to the best of my ability.



1. The SP law apply to everybody and I do know of some locals who were blackmailed to pay extra to get their title deeds. However, since the locals do not need a PTP,quite often they get a share Kocan the moment they sign the contract. Hence the SP law does not affect them so much.



2. Top priority is to lift the 2 months limit altogether. Then, as the south has done, the amendment should give the court the power to appoint somebody to finish off the work such as parcelisation etc. and grant the title deeds.



3. The Constitutional Court does not have the power to amend a law but when a law is referred to them from individual court cases, the court can declare various parts of the law unconstitutional and thus not taken into consideration by the lower court in that particular case. However similar referrals would be dealt with swiftly because of precedence. New laws can be challenged at the Constitutional Court within 90 days and ithose parts found unconstitutional are struck out for everybody and publishe in the official gazette. Only orginazations within their own interest can g direct to the C. Court i.e. HBPG could challenge the new law about the registration of estate agents because it fell within their sphere of interest but the Green Peace for instance could not challenge that law!!!



I sympathise with those calls to make it a criminal offence when the owner signs a sale agreement and then mortgages it. That will not be easy because of various complications that I can think of. Its best to make it impossible to start with.

ismet

rtddci


Joined: 29/12/2007
Posts: 842

Message Posted:
05/06/2008 21:55

Surely the Government and the politicians must be aware of the problems re PTP, corrupt builders, incompetant lawyers etc.etc and the huge damage it is doing both financially and reputation wise to the TRNC What is it that stops them not doing something about it? Corruption, greed, incompetance?

kibrissibel


Joined: 18/02/2008
Posts: 562

Message Posted:
06/06/2008 09:17

I have signed the petition to amend the specific performance law :



http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/peti ... index.html



Everyone who has purchased here, or are thinking of purchasing here need to sign this. Without amendment of the law we may never get our title deeds. I believe this will give the TRNC construction industry and economy a much needed boost by protecting present and future purchasers. It's no good sitting in our armchairs hoping that everyone else will d something for us. We all need to stand up together and take joint positive action. It affects all of us.



Sibel

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
06/06/2008 10:17

Sibel,



Tried to sign petition. The link is not active.



It is an excellent initial awy forward.



wynyardman

ajney


Joined: 30/04/2008
Posts: 40

Message Posted:
06/06/2008 10:53

Thank you for that, I shal print it and take it with me. I note that there is another case challenging a Kent couple who have a leashold property in NC being led by the same solicitor who led the case against the Orams - so is it safe to buy a property with TRNC title?

kibrissibel


Joined: 18/02/2008
Posts: 562

Message Posted:
06/06/2008 10:57

For some reason the link is not working. If you look at this topic, you can access the link from the bottom posting on page 1 heading: TRNC PM answers property issues and problems



Performance Law. I believe the time is right. Please have a look at http://trncvillaowners.phpbb3now.com/viewtopic

breezyboy


Joined: 14/05/2007
Posts: 1179

Message Posted:
06/06/2008 11:29

Hi Ismet,

Thanks for the information, very useful. One question does the SP law only apply to the kocan. I am trying to get them to work to specific clauses of the contract with regard to penultimate stage payments and handover with snagging, then a final payment. As usual they dont reply. Since Dec 2005 when I signed the contract I have over 100 unanswered e-mails. I would like to say that these people are not Turkish Cypriots and not English either.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
06/06/2008 14:00

Breezyboy,

the Specific Performance law applies only to the sale of land. Indeed the full name of the lasw is: Sale of Land (Specific Performance) Law. As far as other matters are concerned, your rights are protected under Chapter 149 Contracts Law. You can find the English version here: http://www.mahkemeler.net/mahkeme-web-t/ifasil/CAP149.pdf

ismet

Chris


Joined: 26/03/2008
Posts: 454

Message Posted:
06/06/2008 16:03

Kibrissibel

The link isnt working as it is not complete, if you re sumit it to the forum it should be ok

Chris

kibrissibel


Joined: 18/02/2008
Posts: 562

Message Posted:
06/06/2008 17:40

Hopefully this will work!



http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/peti ... index.html

kibrissibel


Joined: 18/02/2008
Posts: 562

Message Posted:
06/06/2008 17:42

Hopefully this one will work!





http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/petitioncyprus/index.html