declaring property ownership-question?

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
28/06/2008 12:36

Question regarding declaration on a form ,be it,income tax ,council tax or such like,

When asked if one owns a property abroad, can you legally declare no.

I have recently done so and if caught out would use the argument.



''Due to fact I have no deeds, I own absolutely nothing, and in practice, I have paid a large sum of money to rent from the builder/developer.Legally it is the builder/developer who owns the property, not I. If/when I ever receive deeds then I will then duly inform the relevant authorities of my new ownership''



What do you think folks.If you dont own it then it cant be regarded as an investment.

Bear in mind we are not talking about earnings from property, just ownership

TimothyCadman


Joined: 13/12/2007
Posts: 1040

Message Posted:
28/06/2008 12:42

Sticky wicket this one.



As the TRNC is not recognised as a country it could also be argued that if you did get a title deed to a property it isn't internationally recognised, so therefore no one can check on the validity of the title and so answering "no" is acceptable.

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
28/06/2008 18:14

As regards using non international recognition of trnc and title deed, I dont think that would be a let off ,after all, prostitution is illegal but anyone earning money from prostitution still has to pay the income tax on those earnings.

I was meaning I should be able to say honestly that I didnt own a property in TRNC ,as for ownership you need title deed and therefore the builder/ developer is the owner of my property.

An example would be if i suddenly became unemployed/bankrupt or one of us needed nursing care,and had to declare all assets.I believe the trnc property is not an asset as someone else owns it,and therefore would not have to declare it.

TimothyCadman


Joined: 13/12/2007
Posts: 1040

Message Posted:
28/06/2008 20:57

I have recently bought a car from a garage. The name on the registration document is that of the garage. 3 weeks in I still have no registration document from the DVLA to say I own the vehicle.



I entered into a contract to collect and pay for the vehicle on a specific date that was done. I gave them the money, they gave me the keys. In the eyes of the law I am legally responsible for anything that happens to, or I do illegally, in that vehicle regardless of whether I have all the documentation to prove I am the legal owner.



The sale of property in the UK is the same. Once contracts have been exchanged and completion taken place the property is your regardless to the fact that it may well take the Land Registry upto 3 months to change the names on the title deeds of your property and issue you with a new title. I live in a house that according to the Land Registry website I do not own but i have a contract that says that on the 1st June 2008 I would become the owner of the house that I am now living in. So I have to answer yes to owning property although there is yet no prove, apart from my written contract, that I actually own it.



Buying a house is very similar in the TRNC too. The house is yours once you take possession (have the keys to come and go as and when you please) of it regardless to the fact that you have the title deed in your possession or not.

SteveAustin



Joined: 10/03/2008
Posts: 202

Message Posted:
28/06/2008 21:50

Just to lighten the mood.



The Taxman



At the end of the tax year the Tax Office sent an inspector to Audit the books of a Synagogue. While he was checking the books he turned to the Rabbi and said:



"I notice you buy a lot of candles. What do you do with the candle drippings?"



"Good question," noted the Rabbi. "We save them up and send them back to the candle makers, and every now and then they send us a free box of candles."



"Oh," replied the auditor, somewhat disappointed that his unusual question had a practical answer but on he went, in his obnoxious way:



"What about all these bread wafer purchases?" "What do you do with the crumbs?"



"Ah, yes," replied the Rabbi, realising that the inspector was trying to trap him with an unanswerable question. "We collect them and send them back to the manufactures, and every now and then they send us a free box of bread wafers."



"I see," replied the auditor, thinking hard about how he could fluster the know-it-all Rabbi.



"Well, Rabbi," he went on, "what do you do with all the leftover foreskins from the circumcisions you perform?"



"Here, too, we do not waste," answered the Rabbi. "What we do is save all the foreskins and send them to the Tax Office and about once a year they send us a complete prick.



Mike.

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
28/06/2008 21:52

Sorry, disagree.

when you buy a car in the uk,the seller must inform the dvla, just as you must ,being the new owner,The log book(title deed) is then sent to you and in your name you now have title to the car. Anyway its a new property I am talking about as an old one is likely to have title.You are right about being legally responsible for the vehicle you are driving but that applies whether you own it or not.If you drive my car, its up to you to be satisfied that my insurance allows you to.



When buying in the uk, title deeds in many cases do not exist,and indeed I believe there is no requirement for deeds to be used for proof of ownership after more than thirty years .As soon as you purchase a house the sale is recorded and your name entered into the records as owner.In trnc my contract is registerd, not my ownership.



In trnc I dont see how i can own the house I paid for if for example the bank owns the land it is built on due to re-mortgaging.

My cotract states quite clearly that the final part of sale shall be completed when i have been supplied with title and have paid final skekels.So at the moment I am the purchaser but hope to be the owner.

Whether the UK authorities would agree with me is another matter,so I will just go down the route of non declaration,but believe I could justifyit.

rayz1


Joined: 22/03/2008
Posts: 65

Message Posted:
28/06/2008 23:06

Is there any way that the dept mentioned can verify any answer as I have been led to believe they cant and thats why so many people have bought trnc property and it will stay this waytill we join the eu in 12 years time hoping Ime correct rayza

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
28/06/2008 23:29

wouldnt be bothered about verification as even if was in eu I believe same would apply, .When the time comes, and I have documentation proving that I have full ownership I will declare it.Iam not talking about dodging something,.merely truthfully stating that as of yet I do not own a property abroad,therefore any penalties incurred in uk should not apply.

By the way should relevent authorities choose to find out about property purchasers in trnc, I think it would be very easy, just look into sites like this for example and pass on to their internt/computer boffins.Obviousely girne 29 has a property and from there its easy.Dont think anyone has bought here because it was easy to keep the purchase hidden.Its a small world now

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
29/06/2008 09:36

girne29,



I am tempted to agree with you!



Now, if your developer, who is yet to issue your Kocan, responded to the same questionaire,

would he claim to be the owner of the property (possibly debarring himself from any possible benefits) I think not! The property has to belong to someone! Who?



wyn

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
29/06/2008 16:12

Much ado about nothing!!! In my view it all depends on how the question is asked.

Have you bought any property abroad? YES.

Do you have a property abroad? YES.

Do you own a property abroad? NO. The title deeds are the decisive evidence of ownership.



That is my view but if you are dealing with the American Inland Revenue, I suggest you take no risks and put in a full explanation.

ismet

rtddci


Joined: 29/12/2007
Posts: 842

Message Posted:
29/06/2008 21:50

Where do İ stand having been refused permission to purchase? I have an apartment for which I have paid for yet cannot own it?

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
29/06/2008 22:22

Have to disagree Ismet, using your logic ,



rtddci 'Has a property abroad'

and

'Has bought a property abroad'.



Anyway I am going down the route I dont need to declare anything .



If a con -man sells me Buckingham Palace and gives me a contract of purchase .Do I 'have Buckingham Palace' and 'have I purchased 'it.



I think not. I have purchased, and have, a piece of paper,not a property.

McSteviet



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1089

Message Posted:
29/06/2008 22:28

I have always been told not to declare property in TRNC, especially in a uk will.



I don't think I have ever seen a question on any form about owning a property abroard.



What forms are you talking about?



MC

TimothyCadman


Joined: 13/12/2007
Posts: 1040

Message Posted:
30/06/2008 01:03

MCSTEVIET,



When applying for Jobs Seekers Allowance, Income Support, Incapacity Benefit, Housing Benefit, Disability Living Allowance or any other Means Tested Benefit, you are required to declare overseas property as part of your overall investment portfolio.

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
30/06/2008 01:04

Any form that requires you to disclose savings or income ,apart from income tax which will only require you to disclose earnings from said assets.



Please expand on will thing ,I was told to make out will in TRNC as uk will not recognised but who knows ,might have just been another way to get more cash out of me.

McSteviet



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1089

Message Posted:
30/06/2008 01:47

TimothyCadman,



That's why i've never seen it before then. Thanks.



MC

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
30/06/2008 23:23

if the trnc isn't a recognised country how can any house here be recognised? plus i don't think the uk has any double tax agreements with the un recognised trnc.