Re Israel's latest atrocity - NORTH CYPRUS - PLEASE read this!

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
01/06/2010 21:53

This is a plea to all CY44 forum members, whom, it is sincerely hoped, will pass on to their friends here and abroad:



As the EU decides whether to expand its special trade relationship with Israel, as Obama and the US Congress set next year's budget for Israeli military aid, and as neighbours like Turkey and Egypt decide their next diplomatic steps -- let's make the world's voice unignorable: it's time for truth and accountability on the flotilla raid, and it's time for Israel to comply with international law and end the siege of Gaza. Sign now and pass this message along:



http://www.avaaz.org/en/gaza_flotilla_3/?vl



Most people everywhere still share the same dream: for two free and viable states, Israel and Palestine, to live side by side. But the blockade, and the violence used to defend it, poisons that dream. As a columnist wrote to his fellow Israelis today in the newspaper Ha'aretz, "We are no longer defending Israel. We are now defending the siege. The siege itself is b

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
01/06/2010 22:02

Roy

Egypt have just opened all its borders to the West Bank; NATO have told Israel to release all personal held but refuse!



Richard

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
01/06/2010 22:05

Cont'd: The siege itself is becoming Israel's own 'Vietnam'.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
01/06/2010 22:07

Roy,

Just signed up mate.Could this stay at the top please,

Paul.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
01/06/2010 22:09

Rich,

Do you have a link please for mess 2,

Paul.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
01/06/2010 22:11

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/egypt-opens-gaza-border-following-idf-raid-on-aid-flotilla-1.293560

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
01/06/2010 22:12

Signed.



I am sorry. I always thought Israel was an honest and trust worthy country. They conned us using the holocoust card.



I have been to Amsterdam, Prague and several other places where Jewish inmagery prevails from the 1930's onwards and it is enough to make you want to throw up every time you see the atrocities.



However, the modern Israel has played the card too often. they are bullies of the first order.



It is time the rest of the world acepted this. Unfortunatley in the USA the country is ruled by Jews and Greeks!!! If Obama truly has balls he will stand up to both. If not, we are all f*****!

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
01/06/2010 22:17

Obama is too busy slagging off B.P. at the moment,and has left this one to his hench men,

Paul.

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
01/06/2010 22:19

Paul Msg 5

Listening to BBC World News as I was writing. Sad how my life is, computer and TV live news spontaneously!



Richard

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
01/06/2010 22:20

Rich,

You need to get out more,lol

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
01/06/2010 22:52

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/05/was_israel_right_to_board_the.html

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
01/06/2010 22:57

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=176970



Things are looking very bleak indeed,

Paul.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 00:32

I WILL CERTAINLY SIGN , I CANT sorry caps i sign my password with caps anf forget so sorry, but reading and seing all comments on this subject its a real worry, what can we do east or west , my sympathies lie with the dead and injurerd, what can we actually do xxxx

phylray



Joined: 21/09/2007
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 01:09

It is sickening, and even some of the BBC reporting seems to be biased towards Israel

I don't go to church often, but when I do the churches (in Scotland) are very much more

sympathetic towards the Palestinians. Every time Israel goes to extremes and kills many

times more than they have lost, as in Lebanon. So long as they have backing from America

they will keep on doing what they want, and ignore the international law and the condemnation

of all who speak in the name of freedom, fairness and morality.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 06:04

It is high time israel and her government were taught a final lesson...I would love to see Turkey with all its military might take israel out, I have never recognised israel, for me it is occupied Palestine! They are murderers and theives!!!

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 06:08

Thanks for your support and input, everyone - especially 'Newlad' (Paul) - keep it coming!



I agree, Paul - this thread should be made a 'Sticky' - at least for a coupla three days.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 07:06

Signed and sent.

Goonerboy


Joined: 01/04/2009
Posts: 723

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 07:26

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-western-leaders-are-too-cowardly--to-help-save-lives-1987989.html

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 07:30

"It is high time israel and her government were taught a final lesson...I would love to see Turkey with all its military might take israel out, I have never recognised israel, for me it is occupied Palestine! They are murderers and theives!!! "



Nice to see that anti-semitism is not dead.



The GC's see NC as being 'occupied' - is this the same thing or does it depend on who is perceived as the occupier ??



Roy



Agree with your sentiments but until Hamas change their charter to recognise Israel and not want to wipe it off the map, then a two state solution is a long way down the road.



Paul

Rocker



Joined: 24/09/2008
Posts: 384

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 08:00

Just signed up. The next few weeks will be very telling. It seems to me that even though the ships were in International waters as far as Isreal are concearned they di no wrong. Paint guns do not kill? Keep up thr good work. Rocker

Rocker



Joined: 24/09/2008
Posts: 384

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 08:12

Just seen on TV Israel are deporting all the people from the ships. But they are refusing to lift the blockade and two more ships are being prepared to do another run. The supplies are being delivered by road will they all get to Gaza I wonder.

nurseawful



Joined: 06/02/2009
Posts: 5934

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 08:28

Signed very easy to do as I am a member of this organisation anyway so just had to put my e-mail address in.



Chris

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 08:30

fiendish paul, I am not interested in anything you have to say, you are an israeli sympathiser.

matula


Joined: 07/07/2008
Posts: 647

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 08:45

Msg 19 fiendishpaul. You have my vote also paul. Reap what you sow Hamas. Too many liberal do-gooders quick to jump on the band wagon re Israel. Egypt also enforced a blockade against Gaza which has just now been eased.

hattikins


Joined: 17/02/2008
Posts: 2793

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 08:47

Can we try to keep this thread on topic please, everyone is entitled to an opinion so there is no need for personal comments.

I have signed.

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 09:46

Hattikins



No personal comments from me, just trying to present a reasoned argument. However, if stating that you wish to see the state of Israel wiped from the map (and the Jews who live there) is not anti-semitism, then what is it ? I seem to recall that Hitlers 'Final Solution' ran along similar lines.



As for Israeli sympathiser.......not at all. I freely admit that they sometimes get it very wrong, but as very few, if any of us have ever lived in a country surrounded by 'enemies', one of whom regularly fires rockets and uses suicide bombers against your population, I wonder what our reaction would be ??



I wish for nothing more than the blockade to be lifted, but if it were, I am willing to bet my life savings that interspersed with any aid for the people of Palestine would be huge amounts of weaponry and explosives to resupply Hamas - and so the deadly cycle of violence would be perpetuated.



Paul

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 09:51

Lets vote Hamas as humanitarians of the year. Their aim of genocide against the Israelis must put them in with a chance.

Don't for get that the world believes the GC version of events here in Cyprus, so don't be to quick to judge.



Patientia est a donum superum

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 10:04

Tenakoutou



Emotions aside. Do you really believe Israel wants all this mess. Let's be practical. What if the blockade is lifted? What's next? Who should check cargo ships? Egypt would never do this because it it would represent their recognition of Hamas, and what is more important undermine the legitimacy of the Palestinian Authority and assure the split between Gaza and the West Bank.



When talking about two states are you sure you want two, not three? 'living side by side' - a nice wish one can only dream. But have you asked the other side (Hamas) what are their goals about this small piece of land? Well, don't bother, they have already given the answer, they are honest enough...

hattikins


Joined: 17/02/2008
Posts: 2793

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 10:21

Message 26

I have not made any personal comments, I was referring to the comment made in message 23, as far as I am concerned we all have our own opinions and are entitled to express them.

cyprusairsoft



Joined: 22/06/2009
Posts: 2066

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 11:04

no comment to volatile a subject



but it takes two to tango

Marvo


Joined: 30/04/2007
Posts: 194

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 12:20

I'm sorry, but I must be the only one who saw the three 'peace activists' beating the shit out of a soldier with iron bars, and then tossing him overboard.

ang1706


Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 570

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 12:30

Amazing as apart from initial outburst yesterday AM not a lot has been heard from them!

Methinks they have seeen the above videos and are horrified.

These 'Activists' deserve to have their passports stamped in Israel haha as that will stop them from visiting other Arab Countries again!

Did anyone hear the 'British Activist' on Sky last night- there was gunfire and HUNDREDS of Zodiacs, were thet Ford Zodiacs by any chance- deluded moron!! Or potential troublemaker!!

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 13:10

ang1706,



'These 'Activists' deserve to have their passports stamped in Israel stamped in Israel haha as that will stop them from visiting other Arab Countries again!'



That would be a problem;) There are some 100 Jihadists who infiltrated Marmara. Most of them have no identification papers. They knew the outcome in advance.



B.N. when arriving in Israel you can ask the immigration clerk to issue the entry stamp on a separate piece of paper. Sounds familiar?

parkview



Joined: 12/03/2009
Posts: 1123

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 13:43

Totally agree fiendishpaul with all that you say.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 13:59

msg. 26

Quote:

"No personal comments from me, just trying to present a reasoned argument. However, if stating that you wish to see the state of Israel wiped from the map (and the Jews who live there) is not anti-semitism, then what is it ? I seem to recall that Hitlers 'Final Solution' ran along similar lines. "



A good distortion I would say. I checked the original msg. 15 and the paranthesis part is not there. It makes all the difference between antisemitism and not. I do not agree with fiendishpaul but if Israel carries on like this then it is inevitable that people will not be able to distinquyish between the sate of Israel and the Jews. Israel is heading for trouble.

ismet

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 14:19

Israel has been using the holocaust for too long and they have exhausted all the sympathy I had for them. Israel once again has proved to be a terrorist state, more than any of those on the list of the United States. The jews are very influential in the American Economy, finance, media and politics and unfortunately we cannot expect any balanced view from them. In the long run it is their loss.

ismet

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 15:30

Well said Elko, I salute you.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 17:17

Ismet, as usual you are correct. Trouble ahead for Israel - dark days ahead for a watching world.

flutterby


Joined: 11/01/2008
Posts: 214

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 17:55

I am really surprised at any North Cypriots posting against Israel, when such propoganda has gone world wide re North Cyprus, do you not think that the same is happening with Israel?????? And Turkey too?????????? Oh wake up and smell the coffee!!!!!!!!!!!!! I really do sometimes wonder!!!!!!!!!

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 19:23

Elko



I have the greatest respect for you and the wise council that you bring to the forum. To quote Dee fully...

It is high time israel and her government were taught a final lesson...I would love to see Turkey with all its military might take israel out, I have never recognised israel, for me it is occupied Palestine! They are murderers and theives!!! "

From the phrases 'final lesson' and 'take Israel out' I (maybe mistakenly) made the assumption that Dee was calling for the destruction of Israel. I would also suggest that the vast majority of people associate Israel with the jewish nation.

If I misinterpreted Dee's comments then I apologise unreservedly, but in order to clear up any confusion I would also ask her to qualify her statement. What was she calling for ??



Kind regards



Paul

Clarissa2


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 1476

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 19:37

Here is the official British position on the subject:



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/10218450.stm

ang1706


Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 570

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 20:31

Have just watched the Lebanese News and guess what............................ after the show of defiance on being released from Israeli Detention by the 'Activists', the Lebanese view now is that maybe the Israelis had just reason to fear that Arms and terrorists were aboard the ships.



I agree as if I was an Aid Worker and my Aid was impounded I would shut up and want to make sure it was going where I intended it to go, these clowns are only 'believing' in their own selves.



I still do not condone what Israel did and loss of life but these characters actions are not exactly helping any cause.

DesiH


Joined: 24/03/2009
Posts: 152

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 20:39

Extract from todays Hurriyet newspaper:



"So, if the war crimes on the Palestinian side legitimize a collective punishment of the Palestinian people, should the war crimes on the Israeli side legitimize a collective punishment of the Israeli people?



In other words, should we put a blockade on Israel as well, so that it won’t be able to kill more children in Gaza? And should we attack the civilian ships that aim to violate that blockade?



Any comments anyone?

TheStonedCrow


Joined: 27/06/2009
Posts: 96

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 20:57

I think that everyone is missing the point,

civilian people (who ever) killed in international waters

by any countrys armed forces is totaly illegal.



What Israils forces did to this flotila was, is and always will be

an illegal act.



Doesn't matter what they say there reasons where it doesn't

change international law.



Poorly planned and executed.



TSC

Stonehousepub


Joined: 21/05/2009
Posts: 755

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 21:19

Well said Dee - Israil IS occupied Palestine, what chance have the Palestinians got ? Why should the Palestinians not retaliate ? I do not condone terrorism but I do understand why organisations like Hamas have to be formed, they have no other option.... Another British bulls up the world has to live with !!

TheStonedCrow


Joined: 27/06/2009
Posts: 96

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 21:25

This topic is not about HAMAS it is about

Israil attacking a civilian ship carrying civilian people

under a international recognised flag in international waters.



If you want to start a new topic about Palistine and or Hamas

then please do so.



TSC

waddo


Joined: 29/11/2008
Posts: 1966

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 21:54

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine



History is interesting - maybe worth a read before a comment over what is happening in the Middle East.



It seems a lot like Cyprus and yet again there is wonderful lack of British action.



A petition is a serious thing, I will seek further information before doing anything else.

Stonehousepub


Joined: 21/05/2009
Posts: 755

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 22:08

I am quite aware of what the topic is about and unless we are talking about another attack that I am not aware of, then there is no need to start another topic.



I would like to think I have the freedom to voice my opinion.



It was an Israeli attack aimed at demolishing aid supplies to palestinians whose self formed army is Hamas.



I suggest that next time a topic is posted the poster advises members as to what they can and can't comment on in the future....

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 22:26

TSC



If it hadn't happened 40km off the coast, it would have happened once the boats were in territorial waters.



It is not an illegal act for the military to use reasonable force to protect themselves. It is very sad that people died but if the soldiers had not defended themselves then we may have been looking at a large number of dead Israeli soldiers. Would this have been any better ?



As for this thread not being about Hamas.....wake up and smell the coffee........without the actions of Hamas there wouldn't be any need for a blockade.



Stonehousepub



"It was an Israeli attack aimed at demolishing aid supplies to palestinians whose self formed army is Hamas".



If the aim was to demolish the aid supply why did Israel as well as Egypt offer the use of neutral ports to deliver the aid. More to the point, why did the 'aid workers/political activists' decline the offer. Had they accepted, this whole mess could have been avoided.



Paul

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 22:33

I think the attached article is very close to accurately descibing what went on.



Worth a read



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/grotesque-theatre-succeeded-brilliantly/story-e6frg6so-1225874215412

DesiH


Joined: 24/03/2009
Posts: 152

Message Posted:
02/06/2010 23:31

An IRISH ship - the Rachel Corrie is now sailing for Gaza carrying humanitarian aid. The siege of Gaza will be broken.

matula


Joined: 07/07/2008
Posts: 647

Message Posted:
03/06/2010 06:47

The whole episode was more about confrontation than delivering supplies. Unfortunately it became messy but that is to be expected when troops are attacked and beaten with iron bars etc.

There is an excellent book called " O Jerusalem" which details the early days of the forming of the state of Israel which I would recommend some of the less enlightened on this board read before making rash statements about a face off between the armed forces of Turkey and Israel.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
03/06/2010 06:59

Stonehousepub/Msg 48:



'I suggest that next time a topic is posted the poster advises members as to what they can and can't comment on in the future....'



Freedom of expression is what this forum is all about, or should be!



So, as the poster of this thread, it would be totally presumptuous for me to advise members.



If the thread goes 'off topic', or declines to the point of a verbal 'slanging-match', it is then the responsibility of 'Forum Admin' to decide how to deal with the situation.

swannee7


Joined: 21/08/2009
Posts: 394

Message Posted:
03/06/2010 13:39

Further reports in today's papers quote family members of activists killed during THAT incident : "He prayed that he could be a martyr"......"their faith was so strong they didn't mind if they were killed".

More proof (if that was needed) that this incident was a religious/political-inspired Muslim v Jews confrontation with plenty of cameras & eyewitnesses to record the occasion for world consumption. Hamas and their Syrian colleagues will never give up their fight to destroy Israel and will continue to use the ordinary citizens of Gaza as innocent pawns in this vicious game of theirs. The Israelis MUST defend their borders while Hamas continue to be supplied with missiles but equally, genuine humanitarian aid supplies must be allowed to reach the stricken areas of Gaza. How to achieve this without compromising security/safety is beyond my ken.

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
03/06/2010 13:57

Swannee



Succinctly put.



Maybe the solution is to have an independent (UN ?) organization to verify the contents of aid shipments. The only problem is that many 'household' items can be utilised to manufacture weapons/explosives. I can imagine the 'banned' list being as long as an orang utans arms.



An almost impossible situation to police.



The simple answer would be for Hamas to renounce violence and recognise the state of Israel, in which case Israel would agree to lift the blockade.



Yesterday, a BBC reporter on the Gaza strip, when asked if the blockade was affecting Hamas said "No, their soldiers were walking around in new uniforms and carrying new weapons". Glad to see where their priorities lie !!



Unfortunately, it is always the innocents who suffer.



Paul

swannee7


Joined: 21/08/2009
Posts: 394

Message Posted:
03/06/2010 17:27

Paul: Succint also! I also thought of an 'independent organisation' (possibly UN, Red Cross or whatever) to police checkpoint aid shipments but quickly realised that in that particular region, they wouldn't have enough clout or courage even, to check containers properly. The results of that are all too obvious and as you rightly pointed out, ordinary utility items can readily be reconstructed into weapons/explosives. "The simple answer would be for Hamas....." etc. When is it ever simple out there ??!! I also read somewhere that the birth rate in Gaza keeps rising, placing even more pressure on existing meagre services and 'foreign aid'. Perhaps the emphasis on aid should shift towards stringent birth control methods but even here, I think the Hamas militia in their smart new uniforms sporting new and deadlier weapons, would assist in keeping up birth rate levels to maintain pressure/control within their enclave.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
03/06/2010 17:34

Jesus wept..birth control for the Palestinians...yea why not sterilize every Palestinian woman then the Israelis can be sure to wipe the Palestinians out. Ppl like you make me sick to my stomach.

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
03/06/2010 17:43

Dee



Thanks for that valuable contribution.



I note that you didn't comment further to the offer of an unreserved apology from me at message 40. Would you care to qualify your comments about wishing to see Turkey take Israel out ??



Over to you



Kind regards



Paul

parkview



Joined: 12/03/2009
Posts: 1123

Message Posted:
03/06/2010 17:58

Deecyprus4, I too would like an explanation on your comments too! You sound just like the GC's and every other bigot out there. Thank God we do not have another Nazi Reich on our hands as we know who would be first in line for recruitment.



I have lived amongst both Israelis and Palastinians and have friends on both side. And I find your comments both morally distasteful and before anyone says anything "yes, we are all entitled to an opinion" but this was a very dangerous and bigoted statement.

DesiH


Joined: 24/03/2009
Posts: 152

Message Posted:
03/06/2010 19:00

Some contributors are clearly attempting to defend the indefensible, no amount of argument will convince these people of the illegality of Israels actions.

I have no doubt that the Palestinians, just as we have in the North of Ireland, will eventually achieve justice and civil rights.

swannee7


Joined: 21/08/2009
Posts: 394

Message Posted:
03/06/2010 19:06

Deecyprus4 (57): Sorry you missed the point in my msge 56. I was quoting from articles I'd read and took it on from there. No mention of 'sterilisation' (enforced or otherwise) or of 'wiping out' the Palestinians. In fact NOBODY at all on this thread appears to be anti Palestinian, though some reacted badly to the recent incident and let off some anti-Israeli steam. Why not, if that's how they feel? As Paul and others have said, we're all entitled to have an opinion even if others don't always agree. Makes for an interesting forum !

vincent1


Joined: 20/07/2009
Posts: 212

Message Posted:
03/06/2010 19:12

Dee a bigot ? Whatever next !1

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
03/06/2010 20:33

Desi



I have no doubt that the Palestinians, just as we have in the North of Ireland, will eventually achieve justice and civil rights.



I couldn't agree more. But NI only achieved justice and civil rights once PIRA and the other paramilitary organisations laid down their weapons, denounced violence and came to the negotiating table. Now if Hamas did the same, who knows what might happen.



Regards



Paul

matula


Joined: 07/07/2008
Posts: 647

Message Posted:
03/06/2010 20:37

Re msg 60 desih. No doubt they will achieve it the same way you did in Northern Ireland. Bombs,bullets& booby traps etc. I will never forget Warren Point and the other events of that day when the Gordon Highlanders patrol was blown to pieces (literally). You call yourselfs peacefull activists! I have another name for you.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
03/06/2010 21:15

many feel the seige of gaza should end:

indeed the great sufferings of the people of gaza,

as well as those israeli civilians under threat of rocket and suicide bomber

are not ignored by any fairminded person



but factual accounts of what is happening is something of a chimera,

how you perceive the commando raid depends to some extent on your viewpoint

for example did the soldiers attack by paintball or by gunfire,

and if so, for what reasons?



israel has always stated it will do whatever is necessary to protect its citizens

and do not imagine that most states would ever operate in any way differently



a parallel with the cyprus situation

is that uncritical observers prattle that both the gc's and hamas

would accept a "two state solution": this is far from the truth

indeed both the gc's and hamas consider the other side

usurpers and thieves

of their their former homes and property:



no, neither leopard will change its spots, for all the handwringing in europe

DesiH


Joined: 24/03/2009
Posts: 152

Message Posted:
03/06/2010 21:41

It is not my wish to detract from the original intent of this topic which was to pass on the following thread

http://www.avaaz.org/en/gaza_flotilla_3/?vl - please see message 1 and please sign up.



Meassage 60 & 61 - Civil rights are exactly what they say RIGHTS, justice is justice. People should not have to struggle to achieve them.



I think my comment in message 60 has attracted the "we hate the Paddies brigade" - I very much regret if this has in any way diverted peoples attention from the Palestinian struggle.



Please support the Irish Ship the MV Rachel Corrie now sailing for Palestine with a cargo of cement to assist in the rebuilding of peoples homes following last years invasion by the Israeli army.

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
03/06/2010 22:35

Desi



Hating a terrorist organisation (PIRA or their Loyalist equivalents) is not the same as hating a nation. I have absolutely nothing against the Irish as a nationality and I would assume that neither has Matula. However, terrorists who leave bombs in pubs and cafes to kill and maim the innocent deserve nothing but hatred.



You are correct, lets not let the murderous activities of paramilitary organisations in NI deflect from what has been a good debate.



Paul

ang1706


Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 570

Message Posted:
03/06/2010 22:49

There is no place in this so called 'Civilised World' for terrorists.

I am not getting involved in any talk of Ulster as I very well qualified.

Agree with above statement- if Hamas show proper dialogue without violence then lets see what happens. The Israelis will have no choice but to talk to them.

All these great gestures of Aid Ships are doing nothing much for any peace process in fact I would say inflaming it.

Sooner the doogooders realise Gaza is a different conundrum that has ever happened and only Israel and Hamas can sort it out.

Have a look at the West Bank where there has been Financial Growth in Palestinian economy, this too could happen in Gaza if Hamas renounce violence

Big Brother Hezbollah is watching every move but has promised they will not get involved unless provoked and have kept their word. Can Hamas be trusted to keep theirs?

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
03/06/2010 23:02

Spot on, Ang



Though 'if Hamas show proper dialogue without violence' then they would not be Hamas any more. Tactically they may sign a ceasefire (Hudna) to reconstitute the war-fighting capacity, just like their 'Big Brother'...

Wireless


Joined: 10/08/2008
Posts: 157

Message Posted:
03/06/2010 23:34

"It is high time israel and her government were taught a final lesson...I would love to see Turkey with all its military might take israel out, I have never recognised israel, for me it is occupied Palestine! They are murderers and theives!!! "



"Nice to see that anti-semitism is not dead. "



which part of the comment was anti semitic? There is no dispute that Israel is in wholly or partially occupied lands initially owned by the palestinians.



Turkey was one of the first countries to recognise Israel and has always had good relations with Israel. Turks if you recall rescued Jews from from Franco's rule and took them into Turkey which still to this day enjoys a large and vibrant Jewish Turkish community.



The issue here is that Israel's tactics have been too heavy handed for a considerable period of time and expecting us to believe that trained crack commando's were set up by peace activists using sticks and knives and so feared for their lives that they had to use live ammunit

Wireless


Joined: 10/08/2008
Posts: 157

Message Posted:
03/06/2010 23:39

continued



very hard to believe - Israel in very recent times snubbed both turkey and the US - one by attacks on gaza during intervention talks led by the turkish pm and to the US by continued policy of settlement during a US visit.



These are policies that are making enemies of past friends and more bitter enemies that see their position further justified.



until the Israeli position is adapted to less sledge hammer to crack a nut then they will lose what friends they have left and fuel anti semitic behaviour which is wholly unfair as one should be anti Israeli government nor anti jew

matula


Joined: 07/07/2008
Posts: 647

Message Posted:
04/06/2010 09:08

Apologies re.my msg.64. I was wrong---it was a patrol from 2 para who were blown up.

Anyway desi I have friends on both sides of the Irish divide who abhorred what went on in those dark days.

Two books by Leon Uris which help one understand the underlying events in NI and Israel are "Trinity" and "The Haj" .

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
04/06/2010 11:03

This petition reached 200,000 names in less than 24 hours, and has already had its first delivery to the UN and world leaders. To make it roar, we need to reach 500,000 and publicly deliver it again, demonstrating to those in power that sound bites and press releases aren't enough -- that citizens are paying attention and demanding action, and that the momentum is on our side.



Thank you CY44 members and signatories!

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
04/06/2010 11:45

Wireless



You will note from a later post that I based by 'anti-semitism' remark from Dee's statement that she wished to see Israel dealt a final lesson and for Turkey to wipe them out. My interpretation was that Dee wished to see Israel removed from the map (and the millions of Jews who live there). You will also note that I offered an unreserved apology to Dee if I was wrong but also asked for her to qualify her statement so that any confusion could be avoided. That apology is still on offer but Dee has chosen not to respond.



"There is no dispute that Israel is in wholly or partially occupied lands initially owned by the palestinians."



An ironic statement to make on a TRNC bulletin board !! I am sure that many GC's, rightly or wrongly feel the same. Perception of occupation I would suggest is in the eye of the beholder. A two state solution has been on the table for a long time but based on the premise of Hamas renouncing violence and recognising Israel.

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
04/06/2010 11:58

continued...



As for a sledgehammer to crack a nut....I agree that at times this is how it seems, but how do you fight an enemy that does not wear a uniform and hides itself among the civil population.



Turkey's war with the PKK is run along similar lines. Thousands of Kurd villages raised to the ground, over 40000 Kurds killed and frequent incursions into Iraq by Turkish military forces. The PKK react with suicide bombings in Istanbul and East Antolia - and so the cycle perpetuates. Do you condemn Turkey ??



For Israel this has been an absolute PR disaster but I wholeheartedly believe that this was the intention of the convoy all along. The Israelis knew that any evidence of violence on their part would be reported detrimentally and would have briefed and rebriefed their troops that force was only to be used if their lives were threatened. Turkish tv coverage shows the soldiers being attacked, they responded as would I in the same position and the rest sadly is history.

matula


Joined: 07/07/2008
Posts: 647

Message Posted:
04/06/2010 12:07

Well put Paul.

tanwg


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 24

Message Posted:
04/06/2010 14:28

Can't believe the pro Israeli stance of some of the members on here. How can you justify the treatment of the population of Gazza and the West Bank?

It seems to me that you should be applying this to the "Israeli Terrorist State" and not Hamas.

swannee7


Joined: 21/08/2009
Posts: 394

Message Posted:
04/06/2010 15:07

tanwg (77) But surely Hamas have deliberately created the very situation in which the poor people of Gaza find themselves? Nobody on this forum is specifically defending Israel but trying, instead, to provide a balanced viewpoint. The "Israeli Terrorist State" is no more or less than the same 'State' created by Hamas, in which the ordinary people are merely political pawns on the chessboard that is Mid-East politics. As Paul has already said, in all wars its always the innocent who suffer. Which of these 2 specific opponents is it that continues, deliberately, to harass and attack its neighbour in order to maintain the momentum of warfare? And which one continues with regular defensive tactics ? Within this argument the old military strategy of 'Defence is the Best Form of Attack' seems to hold true. Neither side can do right - for doing wrong !

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
04/06/2010 17:56

Interesting article in todays daily Telegraph



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/7802401/Turkeys-role-in-the-Gaza-flotilla-affair-should-worry-us-all-in-the-West.html

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
04/06/2010 18:59

It certainly put a wider [worrying] perspective on the whole US/EU/Middle East issue, Hector - thanks for that!



Nevertheless, I think that if the flotilla had 'aggressive intentions', they would have gone far more prepared for any 'interception' - i.e. 'armed to the teeth'; as far as we currently know, they were not.



So, I believe there is still reasonable justification for signing the petition.

minertor



Joined: 14/02/2009
Posts: 1238

Message Posted:
04/06/2010 19:26

I watched with interest the actions of the deported victims of Israel's heavy handed action. Was surprised that they were acting as if they'd just won a great victory. Clenched fist salutes, V for victory signals, altogether happy with how things turned out. Still trying to work out whether they were celebrating bringing to the World's notice the plight of the palestinians, or the bad publicity and anger aimed at the Israelis. At the end of the day everyone's thoughts should be with the poor victim's families, doubt they'll be celebrating the "victory".

Maybe in UK we saw different coverage of this OTT action, judging by some comments.



Tony

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
04/06/2010 19:30

Very interesting article Hector.Turkey have other options if there e.u. mandate falls through,which at this moment in time looks as though it will.There is always two sides to every story,and i honestly beleieve that Israel were the aggressors in this particular incident.If i had been in the exact same situation then i would have attempted to defend myself with anything that i could lay my hands on.It was a dog eat dog situation,

Paul.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
04/06/2010 20:50

".If i had been in the exact same situation then i would have attempted to defend myself with anything that i could lay my hands on.It was a dog eat dog situation, "



Against armed soldiers? How sensible was that? Was it ok for the soldiers to defend themselves then?

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
04/06/2010 20:55

Of course it was,it became a war didnt it,

Paul.

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
04/06/2010 21:45

Tenakoutou (msg 80)



What more evidence do you need that a large group of provocateurs infiltrated Mavi Marmara?



France's former top anti-terrorism judge who tracked down Carlos the Jackal released a comment on the Turkish IHH charity behind a flotilla. He said they had "clear, long-standing ties to terrorism and Jihad".



Today you can also see the first video taken by the “innocent activists” themselves and it is by far the most damning…



Oh, and how about the audio reproduction of the moments before the raid where the soldiers can be heard warning the flotilla that its vessels are nearing an area under naval blockade. They are answered by 'Go back to Auschwitz. We help Arabs, don't forget 9/11 guys'. Is that kind of language being used today by human right activists?

Lambousa Gordon


Joined: 03/11/2007
Posts: 1992

Message Posted:
04/06/2010 21:49

The best reasoned piece so far:



http://www.forbes.com/2010/06/03/turkey-israel-flotilla-opinions-columnists-melik-kaylan.html?boxes=opinionschannellatest

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
04/06/2010 21:50

cont...



Why do you think the other ships arrived safely and nothing happened? And there was no tragedy with the previous ships last year. And most probably nothing wrong will happen with the Irish vessel.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
04/06/2010 21:52

Isnt the Irish vessel docking in Egypt,

Paul.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
04/06/2010 21:54

Good piece mess 86,

Paul.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
04/06/2010 22:07

Gordon, a very good link. Is there a hidden agenda for Turkey?

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
04/06/2010 22:10

Re 86



No, they have rejected the offer to dock in Ashdod or Port Said and are currently making their way towards Gaza.

DesiH


Joined: 24/03/2009
Posts: 152

Message Posted:
04/06/2010 22:20

Message 87 - this is again incorrect - the last boat to attempt to break the siege was rammed by the Israelis, eventually sunk.

ang1706


Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 570

Message Posted:
04/06/2010 22:41

Lets just hope calm is restored in the area as we all live periously close by!!

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
04/06/2010 23:23

DesiH,



What is 'again incorrect'? As I recall the last one was Spirit of Humanity in 2009. Was anyone hurt?



You probably mean the Dignity that tried to outmaneuver the patrol boat in 2008. Again, no one was hurt.

Sazna


Joined: 12/09/2009
Posts: 1177

Message Posted:
04/06/2010 23:34

signed and sent

DesiH


Joined: 24/03/2009
Posts: 152

Message Posted:
05/06/2010 00:14

Apologies, I have given misleading information. It was the boat before the Spirit of Humanity which was rammed in International waters. Quiz question:- The Spirit of Humanity was:

a) In International waters and allowed to go about its lawful business.

B) Boarded by Israeli "commandoes" in International waters and towed to "Israel".

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
05/06/2010 00:39

C) a navy crew boarded the ship refraining from any sort of violence (which means that no shots were shot, and no force was applied on the activists in person) and escorted the ship to Ashdod’s port. The goods were delivered to Gaza.



Was Israel right to intercept the boat? I cannot say. But the way the decision was carried out was nothing short of respectful to all parties.



My point in messages 85,87 was that Marmara's population was extremely different from that of others and hence the outcome.

DesiH


Joined: 24/03/2009
Posts: 152

Message Posted:
05/06/2010 00:40

Please read this link:

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005419

and this:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article690085.ece



I think both links are self explanatory.

Possibly you were not aware of the history of the foundation of the state of Israel, or indeed maybe the activities referred to in the second link (or indeed both) are activities you find acceptable?



Terrorism is nothing new to the "Israelis" - ask the relatives of the victims of the King David hotel bombing.



I will not contribute further to this thread - Israel was founded on "terrorism" (see link 2 and associated articles). The Palestinians day will come.



I will not be contributing further to this thread. But look forward to reading your views.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
05/06/2010 07:30

Lambousa Gordon/Msg 86:



An interesing hypothesis re Turkey's perceived opinion of itself in the West and its wider ambitions [in the Muslim world].



However, I sense that Turkey underestimates Israel's military capability and, also, the West's mistrust of Islamic [social] values and intentions.



Turkey would be wise to 'sit tight' until the country has a broader economic base; currently it has a monopolistic business society, with a massive social divide.



The West's worry is that Turkey is, contrary to the Generals' attempts to enforce Attaturk's creed, sliding back to the pre-secularist period, with generals being arrested and other incidents of internal strife - PKK, etc.

throstle


Joined: 26/05/2008
Posts: 85

Message Posted:
05/06/2010 12:11

Some thoughts on this very difficult subject

USA is the country with the largest Jewish population in the world, probably effects their actions

Hammas could recognise Israel

Israel could stop Jewish expansion into Palestinian areas

Isael did board a ship in international waters (only Somali pirates normally do this)

Surely the soldiers could have carried / used stun guns, plastic bullets, riot batons before guns and bullets

The soldier was not tipped overboard he went down to the next deck

Out of 6 ships why was there only 1 with any violent response

Worldwide Israel appears to have "shot itself in the foot"



Looks like another year we will not visit Israel (very old things I want to see)

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
05/06/2010 13:22

DesiH,



Yes, I am aware of the history of the foundation as well as of the further events.



My knowledge comes from my own research about and then from my own experience of living on this land. I tend to avoid biased information that has hidden propaganda though you may call me biased just based on my origin.



Please read this sad story of STRUMA:



http://history1900s.about.com/od/holocaust/a/struma.htm



The ship was torpedoed by Russians, but ultimately only Britain and Turkey should bear responsibility.

Anyway our exchange of links would not lead to anything...

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
05/06/2010 13:25

...

I am Israeli, without the "Scare quotes" and I am not hoping to make anyone pro-Israeli with this posting, just wanted a bit of fairness and less doble standards (Tukey vs. PKK? Russia vs. Chechnya, Sri Lanka, Yemen and yes, the ISAF vs. insurgents) as a guide for judging the flotilla event.





The King David Hotel bombing was undoubtly an act of terrorism, it was one of the most disgusting actions performed by the dissidents that were not ready to obey the main leadership. Ben Gurion would never have approved it.



But make no mistake. There were also various Palestinian Arab gangs and the

terror tactics were widely used by the Mandate administration against both jewish and arab populations.



Every country has its own dark history pages, but the world is never black and white.





'The Palestinians day will come.'



I couldn't agree more.



It will happen the day their leadership agree to accept a historic compromise based on the principle of two sovereign and viabl

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
05/06/2010 13:26

...viable states existing side by side.



I wish it will come true.



End of postings here. Thanks for reading.