In North Cyprus, "No Kocan No Money!", why settle for anything less?

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
12/06/2010 14:31

it's time to hit at the core of the recent auction problems; the fact that buyers don't have title deeds for several years after they have paid in full for a property, if they are lucky. Instead of waffling about various methods which allegedly make property buying safe in North Cyprus, tell people the simple rule - "no kocan, no money." Put down a deposit only on the basis of money back if a kocan is not ready in your name within, say, 90 days. Unfortunately that'll hit the off-plan market hardest but "safety first" from now on, I believe. That is unless the government comes up with a foolproof alternative in the near future.

"No Kocan, No Money!"

Dusterbruce


Joined: 03/08/2007
Posts: 1125

Message Posted:
12/06/2010 14:38

Put down a deposit only on the basis of money back if a kocan is not ready







Whats the chances of getting your deposit back do you think? Living on the moon more likely I think.

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
12/06/2010 15:02

Dusterbruce



You treat it like a gamble,be prepared to lose it.If the deposit was small then the risk might be worth it.

It might at least encourage some to buy. Some would willingly risk £10k whereas only the insane or those with no internet or Cyprus newspaper access, would pay the full amount before completion. Completion ,meaning water,electric and Kocan

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
12/06/2010 15:04

Agree. No Kocan = No Money

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
12/06/2010 15:10

I might be going out on a limb here, but if you give the deposit to your advocate with strict instructions that the money must not be paid to the builder (or the estate agent) unless completion (kocan) occurs then you have a better chance of it being returned. Can't remember a case of an advocate going bust plus it's a deposit and 5% should be enough to hold a property for 90 days. In reality, no one selling a property will entertain such a deal unless the whole world insisted on it. Currently you know it will take years for a kocan to be issued to an expat.

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
12/06/2010 16:31

I agree - Good idea, I would rather have lost £10k deposit instead of (what looks like) £90k and come out with nothing. Had I only invested £10k I would have moved on and taken the loss.

Also

My advocate did not like the contract payment schedules. Too many high payments in the initial stages when the only things on site were contrete karkas's etc. Then when the house is due to be finished there is only about £10k - £20k owing and there is all the internal fittings to go in. These did not go in because the builder said he had run out of money and left the owners with no property - just walked away saying that there was £150k to come in and it would cost him more than £150k to finish the site - so won't bother.

Only pay small payments at the initial stages and keep a large amount back until it is needed for the more expensive fitments.

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
12/06/2010 16:36

the carcass looks good but as my TC builder explained, it costs relatively very little to put up.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
12/06/2010 16:36

Or TRNC=No house -no kocan - no money

maddy


Joined: 12/01/2009
Posts: 24

Message Posted:
12/06/2010 16:50

I do agree with HildySmith and can't believe how naive we have been to just throw away 90K, well it looks like that at the moment but we keep trying to think positive!



Maddy

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
12/06/2010 17:17

hopefully we'll be able to help others not to make the same mistakes, or persuade the government to act fast to correct the current problems and to create a GUARANTEED solution which they personally back, or your money back Orams style.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
13/06/2010 10:06

malsancak



You hit the nail, right on the head..............No kochan...no money. The Estates Agents Law



"Registration" when you pay your stamp duty......IS NO GUARANTEE..........Theres always the "memorandum scam".



If the landowner has debts a "memorandum" can be registered against that property, which confers the right to take that



property to auction, to recover the debt. WHETHER YOU HAVE PAID 5% or 100% YOU COULD LOOSE THAT PROPERTY.



Until the kochan is registered in YOUR NAME............You are not safe under current TRNC legislation.



Caveat Emptor (for your own sake)



wynyardman

Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
13/06/2010 10:56

Agree "No Kocan, No Money!"

nareik


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 113

Message Posted:
13/06/2010 13:22

I only wish that slogan had been in place when I was buying my villa.

"NO KOCAN, NO MONEY"

Very simple, and it would have sorted out thousands of problems. Mine included!

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
13/06/2010 13:37

NO KOCAN , NO MONEY is a great slogan.



If everyone considering buying in the TRNC stuck with this simple mantra it would have the immediate effect of killing the property market stone dead,and would then force the powers that be to amend the laws and fully protect buyers.



For years,people have just been fobbed off with the "Cyprus shrug" and "this is the Cyprus way" if they dared to question the flawed and downright discriminatory property buying system in the TRNC.

Advocates,Estate Agents and Developers have all told us that everything is "just a formality" , "these things take time", "this is Cyprus,what do you expect?" ,"you will definitely get PTP eventually" ,"you don't need Title deeds to enjoy your property...just move in" etc etc.



Hopefully the tide is now turning and people get the laws and protection they deserve.

gotavilla


Joined: 22/04/2009
Posts: 175

Message Posted:
13/06/2010 13:44

Wynyardman " WHETHER YOU HAVE PAID 5% or 100% YOU COULD LOOSE THAT PROPERTY.

Until the kochan is registered in YOUR NAME............You are not safe under current TRNC legislation."



I didn't know about this. I have been told by my advocate that the property has been transferred into our names and we are just waiting for the kocan to be 'written' out. Does that mean we're safe or not?

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
13/06/2010 13:56

gotavilla,



I am afraid I cannot comment on your specific situation..



What I can state is that on 9th March this year my advocate told me the builder had accepted my offer and the process to transfer the villa was in hand. HE ASSURRED ME than nothing else could go wrong. Some two weeks later I get...Ive got some bad news for you speech. That was after I paid a further £13.5K into his deposit account where it resides to this day.

He found a memorandum lodged on our villa for £80K for a judgement debt against the builder This confers the right to take our property to auction to settle the builders debts.



I hope that you are covered.



Now you can see why I am backing the NO KOCHAN...............NO MONEY campaign.



wynyardman

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
13/06/2010 13:57

GOTAVILLA,



How do you think all the people whose houses are being or are about to be auctioned landed up in this position?

Simple they were waiting for their kocan and their builder took out a mortgage/memorandum during that wait.

Legally you own nothing until you have those title deeds.



Do everything you can to speed up the process of getting your title deeds.

Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
13/06/2010 14:02

I have deeds but, my friends and family are still awaiting deeds . Hence my support



"No Kocan No Money ''

cooper


Joined: 23/10/2007
Posts: 3386

Message Posted:
13/06/2010 14:10

Hi Goatvilla, i put the question of the issue of title deeds forward in a question & answer service given by Naomi Mehmet in December last, her reply can be seen in this link, question number 7 - http://www.living-in-northern-cyprus.com/review/2009/12/legal-advice-3/



If you ask your Advocate for the number you could chase it up yourself.







Cooper

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
13/06/2010 14:20

cronos

Never did believe in""this is the Cyprus way"nonsense.Just an excuse. Might as well say its the Manchester way, as an excuse to rob banks

It would probably happen elsewhere in Europe, if as in Cyprus, the legal system allowed you to get away with it.People are always looking to exploit others and only the law can prevent it,.It is the lack of deterrent that allows the frauds, nothing else.

Wireless


Joined: 10/08/2008
Posts: 157

Message Posted:
13/06/2010 15:20

so what is the answer - simple buy from those that have deeds and you give them the money they give you the deeds

sloan



Joined: 24/02/2009
Posts: 808

Message Posted:
13/06/2010 15:42

Hope you were all out there this morning, in the coffee house opposite the courts supporting those likely to lose their homes this morning. It is no good sitting at home and moaning, we need everyone out there showing that this procedure is just totally unacceptible.

kaiserphil


Joined: 14/12/2008
Posts: 1096

Message Posted:
13/06/2010 17:53

Wireless - message 21. Not that simple for expats. They still have to obtain their PTP. That can take for ever. When I left TRNC and sold up, I still hadn't received mine, after 6 years!

gotavilla


Joined: 22/04/2009
Posts: 175

Message Posted:
13/06/2010 19:11

Cooper: That link didn't work for me. I tried copying and pasting and still nothing. Can you give me a potted version of what it said, please? I've got the number and chased it again last week. We're still a long way away.

cooper


Joined: 23/10/2007
Posts: 3386

Message Posted:
13/06/2010 19:14

This is it here -



7 Issue of Kocan

How long it it currently taking the land registry to issue Kocan’s once signing of transfer as taken place & what is given as proof until Kocan’s are received?

“There is currently a huge backlog of title deeds waiting to be written out at the Land Registry after transfer has taken place. We have received some title deeds for transfers which we carried out in the first ¼ of this year, but not for transfers carried out later than this

When the transfer of title is carried out, the Land Registry issues a small white slip of paper which has the name of the purchaser, the date and a reference number staring with S followed by a number and then the year e.g. S-210/09. This receipt is proof that the transfer has taken place and the reference number is quoted when following up on the title deed at the Land Registry.”

cooper


Joined: 23/10/2007
Posts: 3386

Message Posted:
13/06/2010 19:22

Because you have a receipt from the land registry stating transfer's taken place you have nothing to worry about, the backlog on writing the kocans is because of the discount being offered last year on the transfer tax.

Quarmby


Joined: 15/09/2008
Posts: 975

Message Posted:
13/06/2010 19:23

Perhaps the BRS could organise a car rear window sticker distribution? NO KOÇAN- NO MONEY!

Tootie


Joined: 28/08/2008
Posts: 2037

Message Posted:
13/06/2010 19:28

Msg 27... thats the funniest thing i've heard all day..

I take it was a joke? Right....

Quarmby


Joined: 15/09/2008
Posts: 975

Message Posted:
13/06/2010 19:30

Tootie

my sarcasm can get the better of me sometimes or is it wishful thinking!

gotavilla


Joined: 22/04/2009
Posts: 175

Message Posted:
13/06/2010 19:42

Cooper: "Because you have a receipt from the land registry stating transfer's taken place you have nothing to worry about, the backlog on writing the kocans is because of the discount being offered last year on the transfer tax."

Whew! That's a relief. So what the advocate told me was correct then?



When Bradus came at me with "How do you think all the people whose houses are being or are about to be auctioned landed up in this position? Simple they were waiting for their kocan and their builder took out a mortgage/memorandum during that wait. Legally you own nothing until you have those title deeds. Do everything you can to speed up the process of getting your title deeds" my heart sank.

gotavilla


Joined: 22/04/2009
Posts: 175

Message Posted:
13/06/2010 19:43

Quarmby - That's inspired! Window sticker saying "No Kocan, No Money" would be great. I'll certainly put it in my car. If I knew how to get this rolling I'd do so but whoever does, put me down for one.

nareik


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 113

Message Posted:
13/06/2010 19:59

There has been approx. 600 views on this thread and approx 3,000 on the "More threatened auctions..." thread but only very few expats bothered to turn up to support the protest.

Why is there such apathy amongst the expat community? Can anyone answer that question for me?

Is there anything that anyone can do to galvanise the support that is needed within the community to battle the very real threat to all our properties?

I wish I knew!

gotavilla


Joined: 22/04/2009
Posts: 175

Message Posted:
13/06/2010 20:13

There has been much speculation about the Government 'spying' on these gathering that I think people are afraid to turn up for fear of falling fowl of the law. People need to feel secure that no action will be taken against them. That's what I've gathered. I'm not an abstainer! Just noting down here what I've gleaned by talking to people.

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
13/06/2010 20:22

Gotavilla

Athough Cooper may have given you a bit of reasurrance with his remarks,you should be aware that you ARE still at risk until such time as you have full written title deeds in your name.

The sad fact is that contracts are worthless in the TRNC ,and neither is a "receipt" of any sort.

The unfortunate victims of these Mortgage and memorandum scams have plenty of receipts to prove that they have paid in full for their properties......but it still didn't stop them being auctioned from under their feet.

I sincerely hope that your own transaction has a happy conclusion.....but the slogan " No Kocan , No Money" must still apply.

joandjelly


Joined: 24/02/2008
Posts: 2953

Message Posted:
13/06/2010 20:35

Gotavilla there really isn't anything to worry about re falling foul of the law. If you are just peacefully showing your support there is no reason why the police would care about you. In fact, at the Karsiyaka auction, the police were telling us they were horrified about what was going on. There were quite a few plain clothed police there this morning and one of my neighbours took a photo of one not realising. When someone pointed this out she went over to him to apologise and he just called her a naughty girl!

BigBen


Joined: 30/11/2008
Posts: 150

Message Posted:
13/06/2010 21:27

I for one would not wait untill you get your PTP to get paid. Neither would you, if you was selling would you wait 12-18 months to get paid.

Why don"t you:

a) Put a fist charge on the property, second buyer a second charge and so on. or

b) Get your trasted lawyer or ...? to take the Kocan on his name to hold it in trust for you untill you get your PTP.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
13/06/2010 21:56

Thanks for making suggestions as to how we can make buying in the TRNC safer, I'm sure that many on the forum would like to open up constructive dialogue with builders and try to find a solution that safeguards the buyer but meets the needs of the builder too. However BigBen, do you not think it strange that we should have to go to such extremes? I simply want to hand over my money and own what I have paid for. Is this too much to ask for?



Builders and buyers must work together without your support and demand for change we are all doomed. The housing market will dry up from lack of demand and we will turn our search to other countries. We should therefore be demanding weeks for the processing of PTP, identification of properties that foreigners will not get PTP on, transfer of title deeds immediately on completion with laws to protect from mortgages and memorandums.



In other words a honest way of working for all.



Kind Regards

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
13/06/2010 22:08

Bradus,



I, along with many others have written to the head on Constructors Association to get a response regarding "rogue builders" who are members of his organisation.



So far I know of nobody who has had a response. We are therefore hoping to get a meeting with him asap along with Marian Stokes. Obviously if by a miracle we get there I will feed back.

David

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
13/06/2010 22:20

this will be very hard to enforce i think , to many rogue builders taking the large deposits and running , DONT BUY OF PLAN , thats my advice .

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
13/06/2010 22:33

Thanks David.

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
13/06/2010 22:35

the trouble with a charge on the property approach is that it does not stop the builder's property being auctioned if they go bust. You will of course get some money back depending on how much the property is actioned for. Or as we have seen today, if no one bids for it it might be sold for a fraction of the value of the mortgage you've attached. It's an unsatisfactory workaround, whereas NO KOCAN, NO MONEY! does it all.

gotavilla


Joined: 22/04/2009
Posts: 175

Message Posted:
13/06/2010 22:38

Joandjelly: I'm not afraid to be seen at the protests! I was just speculating as to why people didn't turn up. I don't think it's apathy - I think it is because of the negative remarks made on some of these threads ie., that they will be photographed by the police and possibly deported or whatever.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
13/06/2010 22:46

I am sure that Gotavilla is correct as I have also observed this fear. Others are simply happy with their routines and bury their heads in the sand, knowing that they have not got their Kocan, but still trusting their builder and taking the attitude that if anything happens I'll worry then. Right now I'm fine.



There are honest builders and some will be fine. The problem lies with those that have no idea that there is a memorandum on their property and the interest is growing and growing.



I wonder if there will be a bigger turnout at the HBPG this Tuesday asking how they find out.

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
14/06/2010 01:00

Can anyone give me the name and address of the guy at they top of the builders association/union etc who we have to make complaints to to get a builder struck off.

According the Cyprus Today this can happen

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
14/06/2010 01:25

mess44

Did Cyprus Today give any examples of a builder being struck off.?

I am especially thinking of builders who get a mortgage on land that doesnt belong to them,

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
14/06/2010 08:16

hildy,



I am going out shortly but if you have not got the info by lunchtime. Please e-mail me to give me a reminder and I will forward the info.



I have met the man onece, really nice man, young and switched on. However as Girne 29 implies, get something done!!!?????



Christine and I are trying to get appointment to try to find what happened to our complaint. Plus we are going with our campaign brief to ask pertinent questions.



Bradus,



I will try to remember to get back to you with the answer about Pia Bella Tuesday. I will be there as usual



Do not have time for much else. Current 10 day period - 2 auctions, 2 court appearances with Geoff Day, 2 sessions at Pia bella. Plus hours here trying to get facts and info. On top of that caring for wife who had surgery 2 weeks ago and is banned from house work.



Then people wonder why I get peed off.

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
14/06/2010 08:41

Hildy Smith.



The boss of construction ass is - Soner Yetkili



They have a web site, in Turkish only which is - http://www.ktimb.org/index.php?men=459&submen=0



There offices are next to the roundabout with a big ornamnet in the middle near Lefkosa bus station



If you want more info I would contact Marian Stokes at HBPG as she has a lot of info on subject.



http://www.hbpg-trnc.net will give you the details.



David

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
14/06/2010 11:45

Looks like we're back to normal now, the auctions are fading memories, could it be

NO KOCAN, NO CARE!

Seriously though, individuals never seem to get motivated unless an organisation or person regularly re-activates them. That seems to be the way, self-activation is rare. Personally, while I've still got the day job, I find it hard enough keeping North Cyprus Free Press running so it's there if needed. It'll be one year old in August and so far has published 474 articles and 6029 comments. There are 923 subscribers to the feeds and obviously far more casual readers.

We are still looking for people to publish articles, with editors available to tidy them up. This is how Pauline Read first got the K5 problem into the public eye.

Click the CONTACT US link on http://www.northcyprusfreepress.com if you are interested.

cooper


Joined: 23/10/2007
Posts: 3386

Message Posted:
14/06/2010 21:18

cronos re msg 34 the reason i said to gotavilla that she has nothing to worry about is because her transfer has taken place and her property has been logged in her name at the Land Registry and the receipt she has is proof of this. It is the Land Registry who are actually putting these properties up for auction.



I think it is right to call for changes but i dont think we should cause folk to worry unnecessary.



Cooper