Property Laws-The Way Forward

magicart


Joined: 05/10/2008
Posts: 985

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 14:00

I read with great interest the various views and ideas generated by many members of this board.

The major talking issues centre around the legal system and the difficulty associated with buying property in the TRNC and many people including myself have been affected by the current situation.

I really do appreciate the views of those who say we must unite and protest against the injustice and unfairness of the system but frankly I don't think this is the way forward.We have lived in the TRNC for 3 years now and very little has changed.The way forward is through discussion and negotiation with the government ,perhaps through organisations like the HBPG or the BRS.I very much doubt that the government will take any notice of threats or street protests but will however listen to the power of pursuasion.The problems in Northern Ireland were finally resolved through discussion and I think this can be achieved in the TRNC.The government can change the laws but do they have the will to do so

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 14:06

the government would love to discuss this issue forever but are unlikely to actually do anything. HBPG and BRS have been discussing this issue for many years and look at the mess!

blade


Joined: 19/06/2010
Posts: 1286

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 14:13

Hi Magicart,

I'm not sure the laws need changing? Just the order of things during the buying process.

If the seller was unable to sell the property without the kochan being in his/her name, then the lawyer could hold that kochan until ptp came through. It would put a stop to off plan type deals but be much safer for the buyer.

The main change I feel should be made is that the TRNC goverment should issue a clear guidance on what can and cannot be purchased by non Cypriots. A clear list of those restricted areas being published would help.

I believe the ROC has a similar/ the same ptp rules before joining the E.U., now i believe people can purchase without applying for ptp there. So if there were to be a solution I think the ptp system would also have to go here in the north.

magicart


Joined: 05/10/2008
Posts: 985

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 14:17

I agree its a mess but demo's and protests will only delay progress .



Th brits are a very small minority and most of us are just perceived as being guests in the TRNC with very little rights. The government will only make things happen if they see the benefits of change.

the butler


Joined: 22/06/2007
Posts: 1958

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 14:22

I have just read on another forum that the government has promised to set up a task force, to address the property problems. We have been here before of course, remember the now defunct property complaints office? I know many people took the trouble to go to this office and fill in the forms and then never heard another thing. Lets hope this time somebody really is listening and that they really do make changes to protect our investments.



The butlers wife

magicart


Joined: 05/10/2008
Posts: 985

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 14:22

Mgs 3.



Yes I agree but I'm also refering to other issues such as none conformance of contract and failing to pay compensation following judgement.

blade


Joined: 19/06/2010
Posts: 1286

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 14:31

I think that if only complete houses/ finish buildings were sold then you wouldn't be in a situation where by the contract would be a sales contract, not something that you would need to look to for performances as such.

The builder would have already performed his part and be selling on a sold as seen basis with kochan.

In the UK I believe you can get a CCJ on a person, when they don't perform to the order of the court then you can take another judgement to claim their possetions. Maybe this is what needs to be enforced here? I'm not exactly sure how the system here works, but if they were to follow the UK's example it may?? The only thing is with any judgement anywhere if the person has no assets and is skint, there is not much you can get out of them.

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 14:32

Malsancak is right.

The TRNC govt would just love to carry on talking,discussing,attending meetings etc for ever and a day and just paying lip service to organisations such as HBPG ( no criticism of their efforts by the way ).



While ever they are allowed to get away with a discriminatory and corrupt property buying system , why should they change?

If the money still keeps rolling in from sales to foreigners,and we all just bury our heads and accept that PTP and title deeds can take years instead of months,then why would the govt change its ways?



By applying even greater pressure/protest in this area then maybe the local builders,estate agents,developers,advocates,shops,restaurants etc whose businesses start to suffer as a result of the falling number of buyers will stand up to protest themselves and maybe bring change.



Be under no illusion that the TRNC Govt cares about the rights or needs of foreigners....we are bottom of their list of priorities.

Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 15:25

A lot less money is rolling in to North Cyprus from property sales this means even less money from property that brings on going income for the North in way of community taxes and all other revenue brought in my property sales.



North Cyprus I am afraid has proved it is short sighted to the fact to the above



So in a nutshell We have to face it nothing, will ever bring back any sort of confidence any more for a North Cyprus property boom from foreigners . and quite rightly so . Word soon gets round on how foreigners have been and continue to be treated in the most discriminatory fashion .

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 18:03

I do not think that the purchasers will have to do anything in the near future.The reputation of the TRNC is at an all time low and this bad publicity grows in England, Russia and the TRNC.



When the market is finally on its knees (nearly there) it will be the TRNC that takes drastic action to put things right and agrees to introduce laws that improve the confidence of potential buyers. Sadly it might be too little too late by then.



It is interesting to look at the new laws being discussed. Why are they so hung up with the estate agents and their role in the legal process? For most people the estate agents is just a shop window. The real change needs to start with looking at the role of the advocate, duty of care, accountability and defining their responsibility.Then the law needs a complete overall to make it illegal to sell an unfinished property, or any deviation from the contract. Exchange of title deeds upon completion should be standard practice.

So simple, yet.............

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 18:23

I wonder if we could take out a full page advert in a Turkish national newspaper outlining the grievances, corruption etc and lack of action by the those running the TRNC plus highlighting the cost to Turkey and a few examples of the wages being paid and the retirement perks. Would a newspaper publish it? Thoughts?

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 18:54

WHO? do you bring to the negotiating table:

Hasan Sungur - President of the Estate Agents Union and the Employers Union to name 2. He has done a lot of talking at the BRS and HBPG forums (look at their minutes). he set up the complaints process so that buyers had redress. He was the architect of the 2008 Property law which requires that the landowner signs the purchase contract to ensure that the buyers interests are safeguarded. He is a large landowner in TRNC and a man of money and status.

He is also my landowner and he:

- Failed to sign purchase contract, so that the purchase could not be registered with the Land Registry office

- Contracted with his cousin Cafer Yucelgazi, an unregistered builder, to builder the properties

- Allowed his cousin Cafer to build on his land without a building permit

- Supported Cafer for 4 years during which time the houses weren't built according to contract, timescales etc

- Changed the plans to the advantage of his properties

WHO?

walkerscott


Joined: 13/08/2009
Posts: 901

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 19:46

The Military should document for the Government Land Registry Officials all areas which are considered "out of Bounds" for foreigners to purchase property - this would then take out the "Military Input" out of "the chain" and save time"... Permission To Purchase should then be for general use and not an application for specific property - the Land Registry should then be held responsible for ensuring that no foreigners purchase in a forbidden area.

Permission To Purchase should be applied for after Criminal Records Checks have been obtained.

Purchasing a Property should be illegal without first having obtained the PTP and it should be illegal to pay any deposits whatsoever to Vendors of Properties before PTP is obtained. The paying and accepting of such should be made a criminal offence!

No property should be allowed to be sold without parcelised Deeds in place!

Lawyers should be held more accountable or face debarment!

What we do about Builders-Developers is another Chapt

keithcaley



Joined: 13/06/2008
Posts: 2521

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 20:01

walkerscott,

I recently asked you a question regarding one of your posts, but have had no response - as you choose not to disclose your email address, I have no alternative way of communicating other than on this forum.

Post 38 on thread http://www.cyprus44.com/forums/40137.asp refers

If you wish, you can contact me on keithcaley@yahoo.com or 0533 830 1835

walkerscott


Joined: 13/08/2009
Posts: 901

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 20:02

Builders and Developers.



Only the rightful Landowner should be allowed to proceed with building a property or project!



They should be made to prove to the Government that all funds to complete the build including parcelised Deeds are in place! On large projects the infrastructure must first be completed.

It should be made a criminal offence to build without clear "Planning & Building Permission" ...

Building should be officially inspected at all stages ... Only builders registered with the Government should be allowed to proceed with any build.

The Courts should be able to punish all who contravene the Laws!

I am sure my fellow Forum members have more to add to this list?!

the butler


Joined: 22/06/2007
Posts: 1958

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 20:04

Walkerscott,



Agree with everything you say, particularly property should not be sold without parcellised deeds in place. If developers did this then there should be no hold up on receiving your deeds. Think of all the taxes the government could collect if this system was in place. Our developer is still holding onto the KDV collected on the handover of keys more than 4 years ago. Think of all the transfer taxes they would collect. Probably enough to stop the TRNC going under.





The butlers wife

keithcaley



Joined: 13/06/2008
Posts: 2521

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 20:08

walkerscott,

what is the significance of the word 'clear' in the phrase: -

It should be made a criminal offence to build without clear "Planning & Building Permission"

- and how does the meaning differ from: -

It should be made a criminal offence to build without "Planning & Building Permission"

Do you mean 'explicit' - or something else?

walkerscott


Joined: 13/08/2009
Posts: 901

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 20:16

Hi Keith,

Sorry I missed that or did not get around to replying. Thanks for the reminder

What I meant by "cleared" was ... "unencumbered deeds" which should be clear of all and any debts or securities, including that local "memorandum" stuff.

No clear Deeds, No Money!

Regards

John

walkerscott


Joined: 13/08/2009
Posts: 901

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 20:22

re message 17. I will make sure in future, just for you Keith that I make myself very clear



official, rubber stamped paperwork from the right department responsible for granting planning and building permissions - not just promises, scribbled notes or telephone messages!



Something like your "explicit" - Fully and clearly expressed; leaving nothing implied.



Have a nice day Keith and I look forward to having a beer with you

keithcaley



Joined: 13/06/2008
Posts: 2521

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 20:31

walkerscott,

Thanks for the clarification - in that case, I entirely agree with you.

The only snag is that they have to remain 'clear' or 'unencumbered' right up to the point where the deeds (Kochans) are transferred, and there does not, currently seem to be any way to guarantee that - it would appear to me that, at the moment, a creditor can obtain a court judgement against a Kochan holder, and be given authority to auction 'his' property minutes before 'completion' (as it would be called in the UK). Where would that leave the buyer?

I think that a total overhaul of the relevant laws and procedures would be necessary to iron the bugs out of the house purchase system here - and that is just NOT likely to happen, sadly.

keithcaley



Joined: 13/06/2008
Posts: 2521

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 20:34

walkerscott,

Re. the beer - I warn you that if people call me 'Pedantic', I ask them "Now what, EXACTLY, do you mean by 'PEDANTIC'?"

walkerscott


Joined: 13/08/2009
Posts: 901

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 20:38

You are right of course Keith - that's the whole problem here with Deeds, they can become encumbered right up to the proposed completion. It's criminal really.



The Government's "Head-in-the-Sand" attitude needs to change. I hope someone with vision and the "Will" to change things will come forward - it is much needed.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 21:10

Exactly how will this change things?





http://www.hbpg-trnc.net/documents/Press/CT190610_estateagentslaw.html

keithcaley



Joined: 13/06/2008
Posts: 2521

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 21:20

Bradus,

It seems to me that they have chosen to focus on a handy 'scapegoat' without any voting power - i.e.'Foreign Estate Agents', while disregarding the fact that most problems are caused by greedy, incompetent, profligate, feckless, illegal or dishonest TURKISH CYPRIOT BUILDERS!

As another poster commented recently, how many politicians are IN, or are related to people IN, the Construction Sector?

As nearly everyone here is related to nearly everyone else, it's not hard to see the pattern

walkerscott


Joined: 13/08/2009
Posts: 901

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 21:29

It won't!



Estate Agents, Introducers or those mediating between seller and buyers ARE NOT the cause the problem which exists! The only thing some agents can be blamed for, is not telling the full story to enquiring potential buyers. Well, they SHOULD BE ensuring that the copies of the planning and building permissions, the parcelisation, the infrastructure utilities (water-electric) authorities agreements, are given to any enquirer to look at. The majority do not.



The problem is caused by Government and the lack of "will" to introduce the much needed laws and punishments for not adhering to them! They also need to make the Lawyers more accountable!

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 21:31

Agree 100% Keith. New laws will be introduced, as a token gesture to the growing concerns and negative publicity, but will they be effective?



Of course not. Why cut the large pay packets of those in power?

magicart


Joined: 05/10/2008
Posts: 985

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 21:53

Lots of different views and excellent ideas.



I don't understand why the government have not taken steps to protect the property market given the financial benefits.I also can't believe that brits are not welcome here.



So whats the best way forward?

blade


Joined: 19/06/2010
Posts: 1286

Message Posted:
17/07/2010 10:32

How can it ever be sorted out until there is a solution in Cyprus?

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
17/07/2010 10:52

blade/msg28:



I'll tell you the answer to that in another 40 odd years time - but you might need to ask someone else by then, as I'll more than probably be 'pushing up the daisies'!

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
17/07/2010 11:13

Cyprus Today (17/7/2010) says that a new law has been passed which "allows deeds to be issued for properties once buyers have signed a contract." Sorry, it's a part truth and I'd like to hear from the first non-citizen who is given their title deeds at the moment of signing a contract.

honestie


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 468

Message Posted:
17/07/2010 11:15

msg 20



Keith totally agree with you and most of the posts on this topic. I think we all know there are various problems ranging from buying off plan i.e. builder going bust etc etc and I think we all know we are taking a slight risk when doing so in a foreign country. Various solutions need to be addressed re the differant problems eg in Spain the builders have to have a bank guarantee in case they go bust mind you cant see that happening here!



Plus as in the geoff and mary case when the builder hasnt completed properly and you refuse to pay until he has then look whats happens . All due to the fact that the kocan is in the name of the builder and th3 fact we have all paid means absolutely nothing.



The4n we have as you quite rightly point out until the very time that the kocan is transferred into your name any creditor can go to court and make and win a claim against the kocan holder and then place a memorandum on their assests nwhich actually are yours!

honestie


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 468

Message Posted:
17/07/2010 11:23

continued : this action is also open to how should I put bad practise as a creditor can go to court staing he is owed bla bla bla and the kocan holder can admit it and hep presto a memorandum is on your property and whaty a way then for the solicitors to begin negotiations as at this stage the balls in kocan holders hands so to speak.



I know as thats the position in my casein except theres a differant twist which at themoment I wont divulge due to ongoing court case but I certainly have learned how a very unscrupulous game is played and it needs changing as soon as . I really dont think people who havent got their kocans realise what risk they are in. The registration of contracts only protects against mortgages not memorandums so the bulders realise that and are now using memorandums as a bargaining tool!

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
17/07/2010 11:52

honestie/msg32:



Call the whole swindle a 'collaborative scam'!