Selling without deeds

kimig


Joined: 04/02/2008
Posts: 103

Message Posted:
23/07/2010 09:51

As we all know, many , many people here have sold on contract. This has been happening for a long time, and I know loads of people who have sold their property on registered contract. Anyone tell me if they've found an estate agent who does not apply this ridiculous requirement, please?

robinhood


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 71

Message Posted:
23/07/2010 10:32

what problems are you having Kimig with the estate agents?

kimig


Joined: 04/02/2008
Posts: 103

Message Posted:
23/07/2010 11:11

Robinhood, thanks for answering. The agents ( tried several of them) will not advertise or offer my property because I do not have a kocan. I bought the house six years ago, have PTP ( only took 3 1/2 years!) am nowhere near anything military, and have a registered contract.



My builder, I believe, is not a villain, but is always promising parcelisation, and hence deeds, which never actually happens. I have what I believe to be the only honest lawyer on the island, and even he cannot get any progress!

keithcaley



Joined: 13/06/2008
Posts: 2521

Message Posted:
23/07/2010 11:41

kimig,

I can imagine the approbation that would be heaped on any estate agent selling your property 'KNOWING' that you were unable to get your builder to parcelise and issue Kochans., if it transpired that the future buyer was also unable to get the Kochan.

It would be 'All the Crooked Estate Agent's fault' - and people would be demanding that the terrible Estate Agent refund the buyer, because 'they' cheated the buyer

kimig


Joined: 04/02/2008
Posts: 103

Message Posted:
23/07/2010 13:05

Excuse me Keith, but any new buyer would not be able to have a kocan anyway, unti after PTP - which, in our case, took 3 1/2 years!



I know scores of people. including some on my own small estate of 8 villas, who have sold on guaranteed, registered contracts.



The question should be, what do the builders know that we don't? Some idea that shortly the local government will decide it's milked the expats as much as possible and can now sell the properties to locals for a nice cheap price, maybe?

keithcaley



Joined: 13/06/2008
Posts: 2521

Message Posted:
23/07/2010 13:11

My Guess (and it IS only a guess...) is that the builder hopes that you'll all get sick of waiting, and pay for the parcelisation yourselves, along with anything else that he should be paying for - just to get your hands on the Kochans.

Sorry if that's not what you want to hear, and sorry if it damages your chances of selling, but you did ask!

Best of luck anyway - I hope that you get it sorted.

StGeorgeI


Joined: 27/08/2009
Posts: 973

Message Posted:
23/07/2010 13:14

Kimig,



I can understand your frustration - but it seems that the agents in question are acting in the right way. If you haven't been able to get the deeds from your builder in 6 years, 3 of which you have had you PTP, then the agent would be selling on a problem knowingly. If you can't get the Deeds then what chance does any new purchaser have.



Unfortunately Keith (msg4) is completely right - It's one thing selling a property off-plan and then the BUILDER not meeting his obligations, but selling a finished property where you know the purchaser will not get given the Deeds is just wrong. How long it takes to get their PTP is irrelevant.



My advice would be to see if your 'honest lawyer' can put some pressure on the builder to sign over the Deeds (although i'm sure you have already done this).



Anyway - GOOD LUCK,

G

the butler


Joined: 22/06/2007
Posts: 1958

Message Posted:
23/07/2010 14:29

Hi Kimig,



I have realised for some time that things have been building up to this. We are in the same position as yourselves, with ptp for over 2 years but still no deeds, not even parcelisation carried out. The Estate Agents are going to find that soon they will run out of properties to sell with title deeds and then what will they do? Go out of business or put pressure on the government to force builders/developers to do something about it.

I would be quite prepared to carry out the parcelisation myself but when you live on a complex not everyone is prepared to do this. If you find an Estate agent prepared to take your property, please let me know.



The butlers wife

Molly


Joined: 30/08/2008
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
23/07/2010 15:03

You can always make enquiries yourself - your lawyer does not have authority unless you have given specific Power of Attorney.



On the building permit (of which you should have received a copy) there is a B- reference (building file). If not, ask your builder for the file number.



Go the District Office next to the hospital with a copy of your STAMPED contract of sale. Ask if Final Approval has been given (Tasvip Şehadetnamesi) or even applied for: if it has ask for an update or copy for your file. This is important if you want to sell. If the application for parcelation has been submitted by the builder/architect, the file reference will start with LKD- .



Don't wait for things to happen - make your own enquiries, you have a right. The sooner you have a clearer picture, you can then decide your next course of action.

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
23/07/2010 15:47

I can only see things getting worse for anyone without a kocan.



The comments above are 100% that estate agents will not, quite rightly take a risk. You will have seen a slogan floating around this forum - NO KOCAN, NO MONEY or similar. That is what all potential buyers to TRNC are being advised. So why should an estate agent take a risk and then be pilloried by this forum for not applying the rules.



You say others have sold from your site but what loss did they have to take and how much did they have to pay the builder to get his permission to sell.



I would follow above advice and go to Kaymakam with your contract to first see if there is a building permit in place, if you do not already have that info. Then to the land registry to see if there are any impediments on the site, even with registered contracts it is still happening that mortgages are being taken out.

robinhood


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 71

Message Posted:
23/07/2010 16:03

Kimig

No Kocan - no money



If the agents wont take the risk, why should the new buyer?

Take some of the advice above,



good luck and hope you get this sorted out.

kimig


Joined: 04/02/2008
Posts: 103

Message Posted:
23/07/2010 17:33

Cyprus is home - the original owner paid the VAT and the transfer tax, as per our contract. I am perfectly happy to do the same, but the builder is just not interested.

The sale happened approx 6 months ago, and the estate agent, U*****s, were perectly happy to sell on contract then - so what is different?



Robin Hood - what risk is the potential buyer facing? And if he IS facing a risk, how come all the estate agents have previously been very happy to collect their commission and allow their clients to buy on the original owner's contract?



As advised by several, I'll give it a go. But if I do go to kaymakamlik, I don't see what else they can tell me, if it depends on the builder carrying out his obligations, which clearly he doesn't want to do

magicart


Joined: 05/10/2008
Posts: 985

Message Posted:
24/07/2010 08:43

Molly,



Thanks for the information.



If we are unable to get the building file number will the district office still help?



Art

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
24/07/2010 08:59

magicart,



Go to Kaymakam with your contract showing site and plot number and they will supply the file number if there is one.



The reason I make the points, we had a file number but the fees were not paid, the reason we are now in the clarts.



Kimiq,



Things have changed, no kocan, no money is the watch word and nobody is prepared to take a risk, I would not. Sorry not what you want to hear but so many people have been stuffed the stable door has now been closed.

Kaymak


Joined: 07/12/2009
Posts: 474

Message Posted:
24/07/2010 09:44

I agree regarding not purchasing properties without title deeds, if the builder does not produce the complete file , for example all the permissions including the final approval then it will be up to you to sort things out, because once you pay the money to them they dont want to know.



Also check out the type of deed if it is a shared deed ,you still need to obtain the full deeds .



I would pay more money to have the full title deeds.

magicart


Joined: 05/10/2008
Posts: 985

Message Posted:
24/07/2010 10:25

msg 14,



Where is or what is Kaymakam please?

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
24/07/2010 10:34

Kaymakam, District offices in Girne where you can check if Building permit was ever issued for you home/plot/site. It is building just past Girne hospital on left coming out of town.



Without build permit you cannot get electric which leads to no parcelisation, no final approval and no house kocan.



If you wish to visit, come out of Girne town centre and just before hospital, turn left. Then just follow signs for Kaymakam. If walking you can get to it just after hospital, new building.



Just go to desk at end of entrance lobby and tell them what you want to check. May take a while and much to and fro especially if you do not know Turkish, which we don't.



We were gob smacked to find after 4 years of ignaorance and lies from builder and lawyer that there was no permit. To everybody, do not believe anything you are told and check everything your self. It is easy if a little wearing at times.

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
24/07/2010 10:54

Another question we chased up on was electric. Still on builders after 4 years. Went to Kib Tec, told there was no project, what a surprise and sent to Kaymakam. No permit hence no electric project.



You check the electric project in the office about 50 yards up away from Kib Tec block where you pay bills etc. It is a door set back slightly, same side of strret, and go straight up stairs in front of you. Ask to speak to Cayhun (jayhoon) take with you contract with site details etc. Again ther will be a wait but worth checking if you have doubts

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
24/07/2010 12:19

-Magicart said,



what risk is the potential buyer facing? And if he IS facing a risk, how come all the estate agents have previously been very happy to collect their commission and allow their clients to buy on the original owner's contract?



I suspect that all the memorandums that havr been taken out have had an impact. Whilst ever you have not got the title deeds you run the risk of a memorandum being put on your property. Estate agents, perhaps because so many are Brits, seem to take the blame/responsibility for the whole buying process, rather than advocates, that are never seen as being accountable for their actions.



A big risk I would say for both buyer and estate agent.

Mandy


Joined: 25/10/2009
Posts: 48

Message Posted:
24/07/2010 12:40

Hi Kimig



There is no reason why you should not sell your home without your deeds and no reason why someone would not buy it.



However, the buyer takes a much greater risk, in fact the risk that he may never get the deeds or that he will have to unjustly pay the builder to release them.



Perhaps as a rule of thumb, assume that transactions without deeds will be at 50% of the price of those with - certainly a 33% discount at least to take account of the risk.



I know of a beautiful 3 bed home that sold recently for 25k - complete with mortgage and memos.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
24/07/2010 13:01

There is no reason why you should not sell your home without your deeds and no reason why someone would not buy it.



Mandy there is a reason, that being that estate agents are refusing to sell houses without deeds in place.



It is also not reassuring to hear, that someone sold their beautiful 3 bed-roomed property for 25k. People don't buy to lose thousands of pounds and enter into stressful situations that leave themselves wide open to becoming homeless! Also people are waking up to the problem of memorandums and to some extent have initiated this action by demanding safety when buying. As much as Estate Agents will upset people by adhering to this rule, it will be good for buyers. Unfortunately if you have a house but no title deeds you are basically stuffed.



The alternatives open to you will be

1) Live with the risk memorandums

2) sell at a great loss

3) Stay put, whether your happy or not.

honestie


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 468

Message Posted:
24/07/2010 17:20

msg 14

re shared deeds and payng more to get full deeds.



It is better to get at least shared and then get finaliastion done even if sometimes it means paying yourself.



At least with some part of land belonging to you its a prtotection against memorandums etc. It can take ages for parcellisation/finalisation and it should be the builder who applies for it and you know what that can mean.

whilst waiting for that without any sort of deed you are at risk

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
24/07/2010 17:39

honestie,



we have shared deeds, took us a battle but we now have that fall back position. The rest of the c*** no hope.

honestie


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 468

Message Posted:
24/07/2010 17:56

Has the fact you have shared deeds been to your advantage or not . I know everyone says you need the finalisation and the full deed but having something is better than nothing is the legal advise.



I know my situation is slightly differant to the horrendous one you are in but many of us coulkd even in my cirs end up at the stage youre at.



I really dont think people realise just how much they are at risk not having any sort of deed.



Im just wading through the legislation Ismet has directed me to so I can try and understand ,thats a joke, the legalities as I go through the legal process which I am at the moment and anything I find out or can help with I will do.



Jackie

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
24/07/2010 18:04

honestie...msg 24



"I really dont think people realise just how much they are at risk not having any sort of deed"



That is a real understatement on here.



The happy clappy gang can be as positive as they like and think all the worry is over as soon as they move into their properties.



But without the deeds in their name they have nothing....and are at risk of losing everything.



But they don't want to hear that do they?

honestie


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 468

Message Posted:
24/07/2010 18:16

I agree and when you get a comment you should have done your homework!!



Many dont I agree but many do and some of the questions I asked at the very beginning from solicitors was answered. Not necessary you have a good contract.!



Yes I have but would have been ever better if i had acted on what I had wanted too.



As many know, we werent even advised or knew about the fact that contracts had to be stamped untill 2008 and lo and behold it all came out that it was always the case!! how would we know if a solicitor hasnt advised us.



Then memorandums what did they mean . A lot of us have since found out to our cost as they funnily enough have taken over from mortgages since the registration of the contracts was imposed to stop the remortgaging but not the memorandums.



then you sue for damages from a builder with no assets to have a memorandum on your own property which can then be auctioned to pay yourself back! Im confused just writing it. Are you with me so far?

the butler


Joined: 22/06/2007
Posts: 1958

Message Posted:
24/07/2010 18:21

Cronos,



I do think people realise what risk they are in, after 4 years we don't have our deeds. There is no mortgage or memorandums on our property and all permissions are in place. The developer who is well known on the island just doesn't seem in any hurry to transfer the deeds. We are going to try and get the parcellisation done ourselves but this still doesn't mean we will get the deeds. We could let this make us miserable and eat us up but what is the point in that? We try and remain positive about the situation and keep hoping that one day our boat will come in.



The butlers wife

honestie


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 468

Message Posted:
24/07/2010 18:28

msg 27

If there is no obvious reason that you have not had you deeds than why after all this time havent you and your solicitor chased the builder to get the kocan transferred or even a part share into your name at least it gives you some protection. You may not have memnorandums on your land at the moment but at any thime whilst the kocan is in the builders name there could be a court hearing and a judgement obtained for x amount of money and you are then at risk of loosing it all. Thats the bit I dont think is grasped and I assure you its what is happening. I certainly do not want to loose my home and am positive but the boat doesnt come in without it put in the right direction.

the butler


Joined: 22/06/2007
Posts: 1958

Message Posted:
24/07/2010 19:39

honestie,



I am fully aware of mortgages and memorandums and the risks etc. but you can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink. This is the same with our developer, he will not sign over the deeds, just because we or my lawyer asks him to. The law does not require builders or developers to hand over the deeds, just because you or your lawyer asks. Just ask any Medview owner, some who have been waiting 7 or 8 years for their deeds. It is the law that needs changing, to make it unlawful for them to hold on to them once you have paid in full and have received your ptp.



The butlers wife

honestie


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 468

Message Posted:
25/07/2010 10:59

I agree with you the law needs changing but whilst we hopefully wait for it I will do what I can through the present legislation which is as you know is so confusing but I will hold my breath. However after 4 years of asking and soliciitor asking isnt enough for me and if theres no apparent reason apart from he wont then I would expect the solicitor to go down the legal path as per the contract.



You are right you can take a horse to water but you cant make it drink well as far as Im concerned I havent got it to the water yet and at the moment the court is the trough..



If I sit and do nothing and wait for law to change and in the meantime loose everything Ive worked for without any sort of attempt to keep it I will go for it even if costs me a little more money rather than loose it all.



If we dont attempt to take the horse how do we know it wont drink. Just cos others havent how do we know this one wont.



I may loose I may win and there be a precedance who knows

honestie


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 468

Message Posted:
25/07/2010 11:03

and if I dont try I wont get. I will let you know if successful or not and in the meantime I am positive and enjoy my life her but I certainly will do anything I can either by an attempt down the legal path or helping others and lobbying anyone I can in the official places.



Just as a matter of interest what did your solicitor say were your options



honestie

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
25/07/2010 13:22

honestie msg 24.



Any form of kocan is better than nothing. It means nobody can legally throw us of the land.

To repeat what head of bar association said some time ago, get your kocan at any cost. Until you have kocan someone can still take out a mortgage or place a memorandum on the land and despite comments to the contrary, it even happens if you have a stamped and registered contract.



Most of the problems we are all experiencing could be resolved by the Bar Association, Constuctors Association and the government if they had a will to. Most require some minor rule bending, something this lot are good at when it suits them!!



For example we have no Build Permit, whose fault is that?????? Give us some form of temporary permit to allow us to get mains water and electric and tackle the builder for not ensuring it was done in the first place. No, they have no intention of helping foreigners at the expense of prosecuting/persecuting Cypriot Builders.



CYNIC ME!!!!!!

honestie


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 468

Message Posted:
25/07/2010 14:10

David would you mind if I sent you email