Turkey Wants Solution In Cyprus

Jo Valentine


Joined: 10/02/2008
Posts: 508

Message Posted:
31/07/2008 22:57

Published: 7/30/2008



"ANKARA - Turkey`s top general said on Wednesday that Turkey wanted a solution in Cyprus.

Gen. Yasar Buyukanit, the chief of General Staff of Turkey, said that Turkey wanted a fair and lasting solution in Cyprus.



"We should think how we can achieve a fair and lasting settlement," Buyukanit said during a reception hosted at an officers` club in Ankara on occasion of the Armed Forces Day of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC).



Buyukanit said that Turkish troops were in the island for the security of both Turkish and Greek Cypriots.



"If the island is living in peace since 1974 (Cyprus Peace Operation), this is because of the Turkish Armed Forces," Buyukanit also said.



Buyukanit also said that the Cyprus problem was in fact solved in 1974."



Thought this might interest you.

Comments, anyone?



Jo Valentine

Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
31/07/2008 23:08

Can Turkey keep ploughing money into TRNC , Think they are now saying no .

simma



Joined: 03/02/2008
Posts: 346

Message Posted:
01/08/2008 00:56

i would agree that the cyprus problem was solved in 74. isolation in the present day is adifferent problem.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
01/08/2008 12:10

"We should think how we can achieve a fair and lasting settlement," Buyukanit said."



Well general. a good start would be pulling out say 15,000 troops with more to follow. It's going to happen anyway.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
01/08/2008 14:24

susanne,



Would that be wise without a comprehensive negotiated peace agreement?



After all THERE HAS BEEN PEACE since the 74 intervention.



wynyardman

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
01/08/2008 15:01

My question is:



would anyone who is living, who has bought, or is buying, property in NC, be they TC's, Turks or foreigners, feel that any negotiations would be more favourable to NC if the Turkish Military presence was maintained, reduced, or removed?



Personally I feel that the Military presence is a very strong bargaining point which should only be reduced as part and parcel of a favourable settlement, not before.



Much as people are looking to the EU for a resolution, Turkey is key to US foreign policy, regardless of whether we get Obama or McCain.



Any UK foreign policy will still be joined at the hip to the US, whether we get Cameron, Milliband, or whoever.





I know that some who have been refused PTP due to proximity to Turk military facilities may well want Turk forces out for personal reasons, and I have every sympathy for them, but Turkey is more key to US and ultimately EU policy than Greece is.



I say keep the Turk Forces there, they have maintained a certain stability for over 34 years.



Don't throw your 'ace' away!

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
01/08/2008 15:07

Maintained

Tatlisu4me


Joined: 26/01/2008
Posts: 436

Message Posted:
01/08/2008 15:11

how right you are pike!!



Susanne if Pike said eat yellow snow would you ?

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
01/08/2008 15:33

suzanne,



No killing, no violence, PEACE!



wyn

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
01/08/2008 15:37

susanne



Are you resident in NC or GC?







I see your profile just says 'Cyprus'.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
01/08/2008 15:51

suzanne,



Compare it with just the pre 74 intervention! Why don't you accept reality?



wyn

chick


Joined: 02/07/2008
Posts: 323

Message Posted:
01/08/2008 16:14

Suzanne and Pte Pike



I suggest you read the Cyprus Files written by a UN observer written pre 1974

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
01/08/2008 20:22

Chick,



Any references for the book you mention?

chick


Joined: 02/07/2008
Posts: 323

Message Posted:
01/08/2008 21:51

Pte Pike



Go to the local reference library

newscoop


Joined: 23/12/2007
Posts: 2197

Message Posted:
02/08/2008 12:18

Genocide files by Harry Scott Gibbons. Available at various outlets and bars.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
02/08/2008 12:26

"Genocide files by Harry Scott Gibbons. Available at various outlets and bars"



This is the book that is so laughable that no publisher could be found for it and eventually Denktas agreed to fund it. Says it all.

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
02/08/2008 12:45

Well said Pikey,

Now wheres that yellow snow.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
02/08/2008 12:52

you have been dying to say that haven't you Paul

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
02/08/2008 12:56

Yes but only once Mark.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
02/08/2008 13:22

susanne



I hope you are referring to the colour not the taste

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
02/08/2008 13:35

naughty naughty

rtddci


Joined: 29/12/2007
Posts: 842

Message Posted:
02/08/2008 13:36

Personally, even though apparently refused PTP due to proximity to an army base, I have no problem with the Turkish army presence in NC. Rather like nuclear weapons, it's what they prevent happening rather than what they do. I am also aware of the huge military strategic importance of NC to Turkey, NATO & the EC. Similar to Gibraltor. Likewise, why the UK (with US support) insisted on keeping sovereign military bases in the south not just because of the Rusian threat but also the Middle East including Iraq, Afghanistan etc. Any solution will have to include sovereign Turkish army bases albeit reduced in number.

Martin

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
02/08/2008 13:48

Susanne.

Why do you not come over here from the South and repeat some of your idiotic notions to the people who lived through the times before the Greek invasion and the Turkish intervention. You might find enlightenment.



Troodo

Happy to live in the safe area.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
02/08/2008 13:55

Eric

You pertain to live here in the North and say you have TC friends. How can you do that and still spout such continual rubbish. . . . shame on you.



Troodo

Happy to live in the safe area.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
02/08/2008 14:29

Troodo,



I never said I lived there full-time, although I have done and probably will spend a lot more time after reunification. The other thing you have to remember re my TC friends is that the younger people on both sides will swing the vote away from the older conservatives and expats like youself.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
02/08/2008 14:32

Martin: "Any solution will have to include sovereign Turkish army bases albeit reduced in number"



The trouble with this is Turkey has no sovereignty anywhere in Cyprus and agreement will have to be made with the new central government over how many troops - Greek and Turkish - should remain after reunification.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
02/08/2008 14:58

Eric

Are you and Susanne related?

I also have TC friends, young and old, and this is not what I hear. Watch this space for an election before the end of the year.

It would seem that I am much older than you, perhaps that would exsplain a lot.



Troodo

Happy to live in the safe area.

rtddci


Joined: 29/12/2007
Posts: 842

Message Posted:
02/08/2008 15:00

PtePike

I agree, although neither does Greece and the UK didn't come to that. Can you see a situation where the are 3 sets of sovereign bases?

Martin

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
02/08/2008 15:18

Mark,

You seem to have become very repetive,repetitive, all of a sudden.

bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
02/08/2008 16:10

Is the book being referred to David Carter's UN in Cyprus since 1964? If so you can get a taste of its contents from:





http://www.britains-smallwars.com/cyprus/Davidcarter/UNFICYP.html





Better look away Suzanne, it certainly does not support your views and statements.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
02/08/2008 17:46

not sure what you are saying, what you are saying Paul

ukturk



Joined: 01/09/2007
Posts: 1974

Message Posted:
02/08/2008 17:50

hi guys

most of you forget turkey did own cyprus for many years until turkey actually rented out cyprus to the british empire and as usual the empire decided to keep it for themselves and not give it back which was illegal then soon after turkey gave up its right and hold of cyprus when turkey signed the declaration,

now some people seem to think that if cyprus does unify that the tukish army should be sent back to turkey this i dont agree with firstly the turksih cypirot army is very thin and i cant see a cypriot army with 70-80% greeks and 20% turks this wont work out

secondly if the turkish army does leave what about the british army why should they stay on the island just because they were sneaky when they signed away cyprus they had a clause that they could keep army bases in the country sods law in my eyes

and thirdly the percentage of greek mainland army should also be sent back to greece then

i might be wrong but there is no way southern cyprus will agree to let a percentage of turkish army to stay in cyprus they cant even agree on turkish settlers staying there



to people who say some of us like to live in the past you are sadly mistaken we hate to live in the past but our past we cant forget because it is our familes that suffered and its what makes us who we are in modern times aswell as our future and until you have lost family like this you cant even comprehend on what happend by just reading stories and propaganda, try saying this to the jews or to the african americans or the blacks in the south africa aswell as many more to get over their past and see what kind of remarks and response you will get not a nice one i assure you!!!!!!!!

ukturk



p.s just for the record turkey has always said they want a solution for cyprus as long as turkish cypriots population dont suffer and become second class citizens all over again dont you guys think turkey would love to have the financial burden lifted of them

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
02/08/2008 17:50

I'm after my five stars Paul. Not far to go

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
02/08/2008 19:29

ertan

"do we want too live in the past" so many people ask this question some more

than others ,this is how i see it ... unification is living in the past ,separation

is the future and i believe when it comes too the wire most t/cs all agree .

why would we go back to being second class citizens in our own country ,

being treated like animals, some people might say thats a little strong i say to

those people ,you didn,t live through it so don,t judge just respect people and treat them equal and watch how much further they will go.

offer a turk a cup of coffee and you will get a friend for life,do we want too live in the past .....no thanks

best regards

long live the trnc

musin

chick


Joined: 02/07/2008
Posts: 323

Message Posted:
02/08/2008 19:58

Bradus message 39. Yes that is the book.



Pte Pike no it is not the GENOCIDE FILES, and the genocide files was published in England.



Suzanne, are you the susie fiszman THE QUEEN of LIMASSOL

windmill


Joined: 06/07/2008
Posts: 143

Message Posted:
02/08/2008 21:46

SUSANNE AND PIKE ARE THE SAME PERSON,

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
02/08/2008 21:50

what makes you say that windmill? The structure of their writing is different what clues do you observe?

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
02/08/2008 21:50

steven





we know

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
02/08/2008 21:54

ilc



thats intentional





regards

musin

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
02/08/2008 21:56

okay Musin

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
02/08/2008 21:56

Windmill,



Care to share your evidence?

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
02/08/2008 22:01

Chick: "...and the genocide files was published in England..."



Unless Rustum of Lefkosa is actually Rustum of England, I think you are mistaken. No publisher outwith the TRNC would touch in on the grounds that it is b*llocks and contains not one single balancing reference in the bibliography. No serious analyst of Cyprus would touch it with a bargepole either.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
02/08/2008 22:04

Martin,



I can see the Brits retaining sovereign bases because those areas of Cyprus are still British territory. Greece and Turkey would probably have their contingents around Nicosia as before, though in reduced numbers. The goal would be to demilitarise the island completely.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
02/08/2008 23:36

p-p:



whose goal?



andre

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
02/08/2008 23:42

andre





good question





musin

chick


Joined: 02/07/2008
Posts: 323

Message Posted:
02/08/2008 23:45

Pte Pike



It was published by Charles Bravas 1997



and written by a respected journalist and is obtainable in any library in the UK

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
02/08/2008 23:53

doreen

ignore him he is anti turkish ,he will say his not, however just read his posts



and then tell me if his not ,maybe its my imagination ,i think not.





musin

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
03/08/2008 00:04

Pike



Bit confused here!



You say the goal would be to demilitarise the island completely,.... but still see Sovereign bases staying??



'Whose goal' is a very pertinent question.



At present the island has Greek/GC military presence as well as Turk/TRNC, Sovereign and some US presentation as well as UN green line forces.



By what assumption do you claim the 'Sovereign' areas are still 'British' territory?? So was Aden at one time.



Which of these forces (or all) are you advocating the removal of?





rob

phylray



Joined: 21/09/2007
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
03/08/2008 00:14

Haven't read the book, but I have read "The End of Friendship" by a T.C. British

trained (wartime) nursing sister who lived through the 'troubles'. Has anyone

read it?

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
03/08/2008 00:18

robnjo

it may be a fitting question, but i believe you will not get a fitting answer.





musin

ukturk



Joined: 01/09/2007
Posts: 1974

Message Posted:
03/08/2008 00:50

hi

this is the thing that gets on my nerves which i said in my previous post, how the hell can you say its ok for britain to retain their bases on the island because its british land (what a load of bull) but its not ok to have a turkish miltary presence in the north keeping the peace where the british army are there just there for their own purpose, but you dont hear the gc's bang on about them leaving the country do you, thats why cyprus will never belong to the cypriots either it be the turks or the greeks because we will always have outside interferance from the u.k, u.s u.n

regards

ukturk



p.s can anyone explain to me whose goal would it be to get rid of the turksih army from the north

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
03/08/2008 01:07

hi ertan



it was pp who posted the remark ,however we are still waiting for his reply

if indeed we get one ,he doesn,t normally dissapoint as he has all the answers



eyi aksamlar

musin

bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
03/08/2008 01:13

Phylray,



Was that the book where Greeks went into Nicosia hospital and removed all patients that were TC's and their bodies were later discovered in a mass grave?

phylray



Joined: 21/09/2007
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
03/08/2008 01:30

bradus

I'm not sure, but there were other similar chilling accounts from first

hand experience. The lady is still alive & lives with her sister in N.Cyprus

to my knowledge. She recalls school days in mixed Greek/Turkish schools

& won a scholarship to study in England along with only one other (Greek)

student. Her father was very liberal for the time, & she travelled alone, during

wartime. Yes, later she does recount male nurses being shot in her own flat,

& other atrocities. Interesting photos. of the time also. You do get a clear picture of what it was like to live in Cyprus as a t.c. in those days; the feelings

of isolation and helplessness, while powerful propaganda was played out through the Greek controlled media.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
03/08/2008 03:03

ROBnJO: "You say the goal would be to demilitarise the island completely,.... but still see Sovereign bases staying??"



To clarify, demilitarise Greek and Turkish Cyprus.



Whose goal? The international community (and its taxpayers).



Why UK sovereign territories? Look up the Cyprus independence agreements.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
03/08/2008 03:06

chick: "Pte Pike It was published by Charles Bravas 1997

and written by a respected journalist and is obtainable in any library in the UK"



Are you saying it was published in the UK? What's its ISBN number? And who is the "respected journalist"? And respected by whom?

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
03/08/2008 03:11

UKTURK: "this is the thing that gets on my nerves which i said in my previous post, how the hell can you say its ok for britain to retain their bases on the island because its british land (what a load of bull) but its not ok to have a turkish miltary presence in the north keeping the peace where the british army are there just there for their own purpose, but you dont hear the gc's bang on about them leaving the country do you, thats why cyprus will never belong to the cypriots either it be the turks or the greeks because we will always have outside interferance from the u.k, u.s u.n"



The UK retained its sovereign territorries in Cyprus as part of the independence agreements. They are recognised under international law as being British territory. Turkey seized north Cyprus by force and is seen as an invader and occupier by the entire world.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
03/08/2008 03:17

PHYLRAY: "bradus I'm not sure, but there were other similar chilling accounts from first hand experience. The lady is still alive & lives with her sister in N.Cyprus to my knowledge. She recalls school days in mixed Greek/Turkish schools & won a scholarship to study in England along with only one other (Greek) student. Her father was very liberal for the time, & she travelled alone, during wartime. Yes, later she does recount male nurses being shot in her own flat, & other atrocities. Interesting photos. of the time also. You do get a clear picture of what it was like to live in Cyprus as a t.c. in those days; the feelings of isolation and helplessness, while powerful propaganda was played out through the Greek controlled media."



As a self-proclaimed academic, do you feel the fact that this book was only published in the TRNC, and even then only thanks to funding by the Turkish administration, could compromise its credibility air balance in any way?

chick


Joined: 02/07/2008
Posts: 323

Message Posted:
03/08/2008 11:59

Pte Pike.

I have loaned the book to someone when I get it back I will supply you with the imformation you require.



Phyray& Bradus.

I am not sure if it is the same book, but I did read one written by a Nursing Nun

hair raising.

bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
03/08/2008 12:02

The fact that the book was published in the TRNC and received funding from the Turkish administrtion does not compromise its credibility. I'ts the sources within a book that are the most enlightening as to its accuracy.



For instance if it contains documentation from reliable sources like the Red Cross, UN, reports from both TC and GC witnesses, not to mention it being supported by photographic evidence and reported in a range of international newpapers across the world, you then have the opportunity to carry out further research to support the evidence.



I have often wondered why people display such blatant animosity to the TRNC and at times the TC's? Perhaps their propensity to "rubbish" anything other than their own self picked literature and documentation, that suits their cause and allows them to refute all other evidence is the reason they have such an unbalanced view.



As for self proclaimed academics, David Irving springs to mind, with his Holocaust denial. Surely we all recognise this was just anti-semitism dressed up as intellectual debate?



Happy reading.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
03/08/2008 12:20

Bradus: "For instance if it contains documentation from reliable sources like the Red Cross, UN, reports from both TC and GC witnesses, not to mention it being supported by photographic evidence and reported in a range of international newpapers across the world, you then have the opportunity to carry out further research to support the evidence."



And how many balanced and reliable sources do either of these books reference?

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
03/08/2008 12:26

bitter lemons by gerald durrel

chick


Joined: 02/07/2008
Posts: 323

Message Posted:
03/08/2008 12:28

Pte Pike.

ISBN: 0951446428(hbk)



Are you happy now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
03/08/2008 12:30

As many balanced and reliable sources as you continue to quote and state as fact.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
03/08/2008 12:45

chick,



Thanks for the ISBN - the book's still trash though!

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
03/08/2008 12:46

Bradus: "As many balanced and reliable sources as you continue to quote and state as fact."



Tricky one to answer, eh?

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
03/08/2008 12:48

"bitter lemons by gerald durrel"



Excellent book. Required reading for amyone with a historical interest in Cyprus and Kyrenia in particular. Many LOL moments.

edmund


Joined: 05/02/2008
Posts: 33

Message Posted:
03/08/2008 12:58

"Bitter Lemons" by Gerald Durrell



Many LOL moments. Really, I bet Lawrence wouldn't be laughing if he could read that.

bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
03/08/2008 13:24

Pike.....it is tricky...but keep trying .

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
03/08/2008 13:27

edmund,



It is an excellent book. No need to mock the bloke for getting the wrong brother. Anyway, I actually met one of the main characters, since assassinated, so there!

edmund


Joined: 05/02/2008
Posts: 33

Message Posted:
03/08/2008 13:38

Agree, an excellent book.

If I could work out how to put a 'wink' on my posts I would have.

No mocking intended - sorry.

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
03/08/2008 14:17

Pte Pike



You appear to be the Ubermeister of sweeping generalisations.



Let's have a look:



"To clarify, demilitarise Greek and Turkish Cyprus."



Does that include Sovereign, US, NATO and UN presence?



"Whose goal? The international community (and its taxpayers)."





Which 'International' community exactly? EU?, Western Economies? Arab States? Soviet Bloc? Far East? Bric Economies? 3rd world? UN?

I understand Russia has signed a Concordat with Turkey accepting the independance of the TRNC leading to a big increase in Russian investment and property purchase. Israel is also another country investing in the TRNC.



Your generalisations are deeply floored and inaccurate.



So where has demilitisation and re-unification of a former Country worked exactly?



Balkans?



Eastern Bloc?



Tibet?



Etc.



As I said before, Aden was once 'Internationally' recognised as Sovereign land.



An afterthought,... where were these Sovereign forces, with NATO and UN support, of one of the worlds strongest countries in 1974?



They appeared to melt into the background and accept Turkish action.



I know there were losses, but lets face it, there was no 'International' attempt at preserving the Greek stance.







Last night was a 'Dad's Army' night on TV, so I feel quite happy in saying:



" Pike,... You Stupid Boy!!"

ukturk



Joined: 01/09/2007
Posts: 1974

Message Posted:
03/08/2008 17:40

hi

pike

"The UK retained its sovereign territorries in Cyprus as part of the independence agreements. They are recognised under international law as being British territory. Turkey seized north Cyprus by force and is seen as an invader and occupier by the entire world."



you claim to know about cyprus how do you think the u.k came to own or have any rule over cyprus let me explain to you in case you dont know



in the late 1800's the empire and the ottoman empire which ruled cyprus done a secret deal at the cyprus convention which where the u.k took over the government by the means of protectorate for exchange of support at the cyprus convention because of the russo and turkish war

then at the start of the first world war the british empire annexed cyprus (for anyone who dont know what annexed means it is to take a territory as if by conquest) this was deemed illegal and wrong but because the empire was such a force in them days no one said nothing of it!!!!

and then in the mid 1920's when the ottoman empire fell apart the british empire made cyprus a crown colony again wrong but no one said nothing about it and why do you think the eoka was formed because apart from trying to wipe out the turks they were also trying to get the brits out who took over the island by the means of divide and rule who even made turkish cypriots police and arrest eoka members because they were to gutless to do it themselves which in turn caused bad blood between the tc's and the gc's where before they lived relativley in peace



so dont tell me about turkey seizing cyprus, because they only interviend and helped the turkish cypriots have some land for themselves which they lost previously, the only seizing was done by the british empire they took over all of cyprus so get your defination straight about the word seizing and remember its not one law for one and another law for another

ukturk

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
03/08/2008 22:09

Hi Ukturk,





Thanks for the re-run of the last days of Ottoman rule in Cyprus and the follow-on, which I was already familiar with.



Obviously those who support only one position, whether they've been spoon-fed that version from childhood or because they choose to ignore the reality, will take exception to the more widely accepted facts.



So I can only repeat:



"The UK retained its sovereign territorries in Cyprus as part of the independence agreements. They are recognised under international law as being British territory. Turkey seized north Cyprus by force and is seen as an invader and occupier by the entire world."

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
03/08/2008 22:20

pike



is that your reality ,the one you support, your facts the ones you read

or are these the ones you have experienced.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
03/08/2008 22:42

Robnjo: "Which 'International' community exactly?"



The United Nations. Who else could it be in a Cypriot context?



"Your generalisations are deeply floored and inaccurate."



As long as they're not flawed, I'm not worried.



"So where has demilitisation and re-unification of a former Country worked exactly? Balkans?"



Yes, have you ever been to Bosnia post-Dayton?



"Eastern Bloc?"



Yes, how about DDR/FRG?



"I understand Russia has signed a Concordat with Turkey accepting the independance of the TRNC leading to a big increase in Russian investment and property purchase."



Fact - no country (apart from TR) recognises the "TRNC", regardless of your "understanding".



So with all that said, isn't the "stupid boy" the one who shows a shaky grasp of very basic geopolitics?

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
03/08/2008 22:46

Musin: "is that your reality ,the one you support, your facts the ones you read

or are these the ones you have experienced."



I go along with accepted consensus based on all positions being weighed up and reality checks in place. I back it up with what I see on the ground.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
03/08/2008 22:50

pike



you see things only one way " your way "

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
03/08/2008 22:54

Or the accurate way, Musin.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
03/08/2008 23:21

eric / pike

what would you like to see happen too us turkish cypriots ,would you prefer us

to go back to the 50s ..60s..70s..,as your so much more in the know than everyone else what hand would you deal us ,bearing in mind that turkish troops will never leave the island and this at some point must be accepted by all concerned.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
03/08/2008 23:28

Musin,



Are you saying you weren't raised and educated in the London area and haven't lived there for 50-odd years? Green Line or Green Lanes, matey?

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
03/08/2008 23:42

eric

we have had this conversation before i am a turkish cypriot born in lefkosa

90% of my very large family reside in cyprus ,so to keep your ego happy

answer the question for the rest of my family and for the rest of the people on

this forum.

the question was "what would like to see happen to us turkish cypriots"

ukturk



Joined: 01/09/2007
Posts: 1974

Message Posted:
04/08/2008 00:59

hi pike

no probs on the refresh of the last years of the ottaman empire glad i could assisit!! lol, you seem to be stuck in repeat mode with all the members lol

i think i have figurerd you out!! lol, your remarks come from a view of does not matter how we got there just as long as we got there

we who have objective minds take on board both sides of the coin, story etc and also read the facts, yes your right the u.k retained their bases and land and also that turkey came in and helped their peope also that the north is not reconised tell me something i dont know, and its not a case spoon fed a certain view and im only stating reality and facts what led to the u.k retaining their bases which they annexed in the first place which you can read in any book, paper, internet

secondly on your repeated words the whole view of the world that turkey seized and invaded, these are words that are directed for personal gain what did turkey gain from going over to cyprus apart from supporting tc's finacially and helping to start some sort of system, having strained relations with other countries so what did they do it for just simple help, if turkey was not a guarantor do you think they would go in for the sake of it and take over all of cyprus, thats more the u.s and their puppy the u.k's style

so at the end of the day like what the subject (gone off track) says turkey wants a solution and irrespective of the past has a role to play in a way forward

ukturk



p.s whats wrong with green lanes anyway!!! lol a large population do live there thanks to the u.k annexing their country and giving out british passports to everyone they done what the expats are doing now by moving to cyprus!!! lol

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
04/08/2008 08:26

Eric, you stated:



Obviously those who support only one position, whether they've been spoon-fed that version from childhood or because they choose to ignore the reality, will take exception to the more widely accepted facts.



Are you referring to the Greek Cypriots?



Troodo

Happy to live in the safe area

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
04/08/2008 08:36

Susanne,

You really are absurd.



Troodo

Happy to live in the safe area.

ukturk



Joined: 01/09/2007
Posts: 1974

Message Posted:
04/08/2008 12:05

hi suesanne

the reason us lot are insistant that turkey helped the t.c's is because they did take away all the propaganda do you refute the fact some factions of gc and greece were killing t.c's in the way of ethnic cleansing, if turkey wanted cyprus for themselves they would have gone over sooner before tc's were being killed, also the fact that turkey and the tc people were pleading to the u.k (them also being guarantors) to stop the violence but they refused to get involved and you saying turkey would have taken it all if it was not for the british bases has no relavance because britain did not care all they said about the situation was there would be trouble if turkey came on to british soil which they did not

you say turkey just wanted to offload their people in the north yeah because turkey was so over populated so sending over x amount of thousand people made a lot of diffrence!!! you ask about why mainland turks own a lot of the hotels well because they have the money or would you prefer the hotels to stand their wasting away!!!! and the gain for the tc's is that jobs are being created their land is being sold which creates revenue

not sure about your last comments about living the turkish not the cypriot dream if you have not realised north cyprus and their people are turkish origin so it would be pretty hard to stamp this out

ukturk

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
04/08/2008 12:37

ukturk: "...we who have objective minds take on board both sides of the coin, story etc and also read the facts..."



Very few people on this BB, including your goodself, are as you describe. Otherwise they would acknowledge Turkey's crimes and not just criticise the UK/GR/GC position.



"p.s whats wrong with green lanes anyway!!!"



Nothing at all. It's just strange how those who live in London and district appear more nationalistic and biased than Cypriots in Cyprus. Maybe it's because they know they are not contributing anything useful to Cyprus, while those who actually live there are.

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
04/08/2008 13:13

PP



I am one of those 'Brits' who live in London, love Cyprus, and have now invested quite a lot of money into NC.



Sure, I'm not living there yet as I have long term tenants there.



In the meantime I use KTHY flights, stay in NC hotels, Pay my NC taxes monthly, pay for water, electric, maintenance, have money deposited there, eat out regularly when there, using car hire, taxis, use local companies (not just Ex-pat ) for all my expenses out there.



I engage in discussion, politics, humour, whatever.



I feel I am a net contributor to NC and more than happy to be so.



I don't criticise Greeks, GC's, Turks, or TC's



The one thing I love most in NC is the warm & welcoming hospitality of TC's, they are always prepared to discuss, argue, and most of all,.. listen & learn and I have learned a lot from them.



That is something missing from many other people who feel they have a 'take' on the situation and continually try to hark back to historic parameters.



There is only one way,......... forward,.... not back.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
04/08/2008 13:28

ROBnJo,



I'm glad to hear things have worked out well for you. I also agree with you about forward being the only way. Too much history in Cyprus...

ukturk



Joined: 01/09/2007
Posts: 1974

Message Posted:
04/08/2008 16:07

pike

i acknowledge all thats concerned in this matter their crimes and if people like your goodself aswell as the rest of the world like you say turkey commited a crime to go over to cyprus to help save thousands of lives then i would prefer them to have commited these crimes rather than just stand there and allow it to happen, i have never critasised giving my view just stated facts aswell,

at the end of the day all parties are to blame one way or the other how north cyprus has suffered where the south has flourished, and all turkey want now is to safeguard its north cypriot brothers and sisters if any deal does take place



it does not make any diffrence where cypriots are living now either north/south/east/west or green lanes its where they come from and they as cypriots have every right to be as nationalstic and have their view as the cypriot living in cyprus now!!!

you telling me pike because you might be living in cyprus that stops you having the right to be nationalistic and having your view on the u.k i dont think so some how !!!

ukturk

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
04/08/2008 18:36

eric



which flag does your heart bleed for.











musin "a turkish cypriot living in london"

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
04/08/2008 21:09

ukturk: "...like you say turkey commited a crime to go over to cyprus to help save thousands of lives then i would prefer them to have commited these crimes..."



So you are saying you condone the acts of mass murder, rape and torture Turkey was found guilty of committing as part of the 1974 invasion? Funnily enough, I don't recall British soldiers committing acts of mass murder, rape and torture in order to win our Peace Operation to liberate our citizens in the Falklands in 1982. A war which lasted longer then the 1974 invasion, BTW.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
04/08/2008 21:12

MUSIN: "musin "a turkish cypriot living in london"



That's interesting. So does that mean you will be voting illegally in any Cyprus referendum? You did say you would vote, didn't you?

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
04/08/2008 21:18

bradus: "Is the book being referred to David Carter's UN in Cyprus since 1964? If so you can get a taste of its contents from:.."



David Carter became a personal friend of Denktas, which clearly and fatally compromises any attempt at serious analysis of the Cyprus issue. His credibility as a journalist is tarnished.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
04/08/2008 21:28

pike



maybe you missed the images of iraqi civilians ,not that long ago,but hey your

only a journalist or so you claim .





musin "a turkish cypriot born in lefkosa living in london"

bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
04/08/2008 21:30

In your opinion. Again I repeat check out the contents and references before claiming that it is tarnished. Most of the book contains statements from UN officials and international newspapers.........but I am sure you don't want to hear this.



You stick to your GC version of history.... the stuff that's still taught to school children in the south.



The problem you have Pike is that to the GC's, Cypriot history only began in 1974 so you can conveniently forget/ignore the events leading up to the "invasion"

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
04/08/2008 21:39

pikey



trust me son i will be voting.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
04/08/2008 21:49

Musin,



So you will leave the UK and become a permanent resident in Cyprus to qualify for your vote? I'll watch this space...

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
04/08/2008 22:05

bradus msg #104,



Don't let anger affect your posts. If you've been following my BB contributions over the years you will know I take no sides over the Cyprus issue and have often described one as bad as the other. This is a TRNC board, I have a home in the north so as a stakeholder I have a right to speak my mind about the failings of the system. If the situation was reversed and I was on a GC BB I would be debating the issues affecting the south just as strongly. Maybe you don't believe objectivity is possible in Cyprus.



As for Carter's work, if he's still alive (he was in a bad way last I heard) he would be the first to admit his links with the Denktas regime. He would also, I'm pretty sure, accept connections of that type are incompatible with the regulations of impartiality at the BBC, which he left. I still report for the BBC.

ukturk



Joined: 01/09/2007
Posts: 1974

Message Posted:
04/08/2008 22:15

pike

maybe you did not understand i wrote like you said not what i said!!!! if you and the rest of the world say the intervention was illegal then im my eyes im more than satisfied for them to have done this to save thousands of lifes not just turks but greeks aswell as brits and of course peoples lifes would be lost thats what happens in a fight , dont you mean greeks causing murder, rape, and torture and mass graves

you dont mention anything about the british army in cyprus just watching innocent people dying, sending out untrained turkish civilians as policemen to arrest eoka members who were killing brits aswell as turks which in turn caused more unrest between tc's and gc's and this coming from a country who was supposed to be a guarantor to stabalise peace on the island this is just as bad as loading and shoting the gun themselves!!!!



ahh yes the great falklands war which cost the taxpayer nearly 3 billion pounds was the biggest pr stunt for the iron lady who was not so popular at the time, scandal everywhere with the bbc being acused of treason, the british government being accused of deploying nuclear weapons,i would not say it was a peacefull operation when nearly a thousand men died with over 2000 thousand injuries and not so much of a liberation more like taking back a country which was taken from them but they took of argentina in the first place BTW

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
04/08/2008 22:18

eric



msg 99 why have you not answered the question ,what are you afraid of ,i

have answered all your posts,but you pick and choose your questions and answers ,come on the question is still there,waiting.

bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
04/08/2008 22:23

I have not been following your posts over the year. Sad as I do find your posts entertaining.



I would dispute that you have taken no side over the Cyprus issue and perhaps this is what makes people respond to your posts in the way they do?



I never get angry with your posts (sorry to disappoint you) because I do find them challenging and much of what you write encourages me to do more research. I am happy with my sources but realise that you never will be...such is life.



However if you did a straw poll now on the board I suspect very few would consider you impartial or objective. I accept this is a TRNC board and as such will be slanted to TC viewpoints. Everyone has a bias, you included, and no one can be totally impartial.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
04/08/2008 22:37

i have footage on an old vhs recorded off the bbc ,during 74 where an old english gentleman barely able to walk waving a union jack barely above his head calling out i,m british only to be shot dead by greek soildiers ,thats how much the greeks want the british .i will try and find it to find out the reporter at the time ,so others can see it .

all you ex pats dont wish for unification if you do then you will be the first

people the greeks will try to remove.



musin

ukturk



Joined: 01/09/2007
Posts: 1974

Message Posted:
04/08/2008 22:48

pike

also i noticed you wrote that you post on both tc forums aswell as gc forums so what you do is come on a turkish cypriot forum slate everything which is tc then go on gc forum and slate everything which is gc because not once i have read a post from you which has been postive or helpull without having a dig included in the message

if you are a objective person which i can see you are, you should state both facts on both forums you say " I take no sides over the Cyprus issue and have often described one as bad as the other" again i have not seen you post once the behaviour of gc's or greece

you also say " I have a home in the north so as a stakeholder I have a right to speak my mind about the failings of the system" what system failings are you on about history, government, turkey, housing market, etc or you just speaking your mind about the failings of north cyprus and turkey as a whole



just thought i would ask would be nice to know and if poss try not to answer my question with a question of your own

ukturk



p.s maybe i am mistaken but if you was born in cyprus does that not automatically give you the right to vote, north cyprus can always copy the south by laying out more planes for bringing people who live outside cyprus to make themselves be counted on any votes regarding elections and resoultions!

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
04/08/2008 22:50

should the turkish army leave cyprus,

can the present greek cypriot state really be trusted

to stick to any so-called agreement they may have "signed"?

on past form, if I was cypriot or turkish, I would be hard to convince



I would like to think they have changed for the better:

after all they would claim to be the "heirs of aristotle and plato"

and according to this somewhat over-romanticised interpretation,

they'd have us picture them as flag-bearers for european civilization

their racism and murders during the 1963-1974 period notwithstanding,

more acutely, any deal they "sign" which lets them control the north again,

would be a less than sensible idea for our side



there is a possibility that they may, assuming hell freezes over,

find themselves locked-in to an agreement

rather like egypt was following the camp david peace accords,

something difficult and unappealing to wriggle out of

after all, egypt got the sinai returned with newly-discovered oil wealth:

would the orange groves of guzelyurt

plus the abandoned hotels of varosha, already tabled I understand,

be their "last territorial demand"? what do you think p-p?



well, master pikelet, you can now unleash your archival hounds of hell

and conclusively demolish my groping and hesitant remarks with your

confident, impressive, scholarly but quite painfully irrelevant views



and ladies and gentlemen, please refrain from giving izzet a hard time

by using phrases like: "xxxx xxxd"

since there such compelling counter-arguments to the racist gc ones

notably, "how could we trust you after what you did last time?"



oh yeh, turkey and the trnc are under all sorts of pressure to do a deal,

but they are perhaps unable to render-up the kind of deal called "sellout"



andre

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
04/08/2008 23:15

ukturk,



What you said was "...if people like your goodself aswell as the rest of the world like you say turkey commited a crime to go over to cyprus to help save thousands of lives then i would prefer them to have commited these crimes rather than just stand there and allow it to happen..."



Which is another way of saying if the means justify the ends, then so be it. But there is no excuse for war crimes like mass muder, rape and torture. We're not on the subject of atrocities committed by other countries, or Britain's role of duplicity in Cyprus, but if you like we can start a new thread and discuss other sins.



What you say about the political motivations behind Falklands war may be true, but British forces did not conduct themselves in the barbaric way that sections of the Turkish military did in Cyprus, and proved themselves to be better soldiers as a result.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
04/08/2008 23:16

ertan

i have dual nationality ,turkish and british ,i have a home in cyprus in the kktc

and we have lots of properties and land in the south ,which as we are in the eu meaning britain and the south of cyprus we have been told we can retrieve

however we have no wish to .

i have my kimlik and so do my three sons who i hasten to add are half turkish

and half irish ,they have there army papers in order and one will soon be

doing his ,yes i have been well informed that all four of us can vote as we are all turkish citizens,even though my children were born outside of cyprus.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
04/08/2008 23:21

Musin,



Sorry, I didn't think msg#99 was a serious question. Which flag does my heart bleed for? I've served my country under the union flag, but also under the symbols of the EU and the UN if that's what you mean. I laugh at people who get worked up about flags. Does it flippin' matter? No. Is it worth dying for a bit of cloth? Nope.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
04/08/2008 23:35

suanne,



who is "we"?



andre

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
04/08/2008 23:36

eric

i,m confused you,ve served your country under the union jack ,so forgive me

by doing that are,nt you putting your life at risk ,are you not ready to die for your flag ,after all when you took the falklands back what was the

first thing you did ,fly the union jack .by joining the forces and saying its not worth dying for a bit of cloth.nope.i,m sorry but thats contradictory.

aslan


Joined: 23/06/2008
Posts: 757

Message Posted:
04/08/2008 23:41

The white flag would not harm anyone on this thread, maybe certain powers should have used it earlier to save themselves from the predicament they find themselves in now.

meddmale


Joined: 19/11/2007
Posts: 43

Message Posted:
04/08/2008 23:44

The Genocide files



ISBN 978-0951446423

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
04/08/2008 23:48

susanne,



my apologies:



firstly I mistakenly called you suanne, also a charming name

but more reminiscent of drive-in movies and popcorn



secondly, misanthropists say you are a clone of private pike

I do not believe it and note your style is more personal, less school-masterly



thirdly I somehow don't see the real meaning of your last remark:

there are now several crossing points open between north and south,

it is already possible for yourself, musin and ukturk

"to walk freely round this beautiful island"

and are you all not cypriots already?



andre

meddmale


Joined: 19/11/2007
Posts: 43

Message Posted:
05/08/2008

Hi



Better to live in isolation then live as a slave in your own country and used for target practice every night !!!!



We can’t trust the EU, look at what was promised if we voted yes last time and what has come from it?



How long are your memories?



Who would save us next time?



Would we live in terror, our children at risk with no chance of justice under a Greek judiciary?



Lets not take that chance, there may be no way back



The GC hate us, they are brought up on hatred of us, its there all the time just under the surface



My vote



Keep North Cyprus Turkish!!!!!

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
05/08/2008 00:10

andre

susanne is not cypriot her father in law is



musin

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
05/08/2008 00:21

susanne

in one of your earlier posts ,have you forgotten.

bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
05/08/2008 00:37

Susanne



British with one Greek Cypriot parent if my memory serves me well?

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
05/08/2008 00:47

sue



thanks







.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
05/08/2008 00:49

susanne



who said anything about voting ,are you sure you are who you say you are.

ukturk



Joined: 01/09/2007
Posts: 1974

Message Posted:
05/08/2008 01:33

pike

you was the one who brought up atrocities about turkey and as soon as i mention atrocities and wrong doings of other countries involved in the cyprus situation and britains role you say thats for another subject typical!!!



so you say the turkish army were barbarians did that make the greek mainlanders and gc army angels and at the end of the day when there is a war going on some crimes might accur just ask the british soldiers that got caught humilating iraqi soldiers when they got taken as prisoners

its a sad thing to say but there is no rules in engagment many innocent people do die



sue not quite sure what you are getting at i can walk quite freely in the north and the south with no problems as a cypriot

and i call tell you now what my reation will be when the cyprus situation will be solved it will be bliss then the north will have its shackels and ball and chain finally lifted from around the norths neck but not at the expense of turkish cypriots civil rights and freedom

ukturk

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
05/08/2008 01:56

musin: "i have footage on an old vhs recorded off the bbc ,during 74 where an old english gentleman barely able to walk waving a union jack barely above his head calling out i,m british only to be shot dead by greek soildiers ,thats how much the greeks want the british .i will try and find it to find out the reporter at the time ,so others can see it ."



I look forward to seeing it. Strangely enough, it doesn't sound familiar.



"all you ex pats dont wish for unification if you do then you will be the first

people the greeks will try to remove."



Raki level alert!

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
05/08/2008 02:01

ukturk msg 112: "pike also i noticed you wrote that you post on both tc forums aswell as gc forums"



I never said that. You are misquoting me. It completely discounts your post. Read again what I said in msg 107.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
05/08/2008 02:09

Musin msg 119,



The British forces re-raised the Union flag after recapturing Port Stanley, not raised it. The flag was already there. It had been taken down by the Argentinians. Then the task force went home again. However, 40,000 Turkish troops remain in Cyprus since invading in 1974. I rest my case.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
05/08/2008 02:15

ukturk msg 133,



Why haven't Greece, the Roc and any others you care to mention been found guilty on multiple counts of human rights abuses in Cyprus including murder, rape and torture? If they had I would be condemning them just as strongly. And I do know they were up to all sorts. But Turkey has been condemned internationally and you can't escape that.

ukturk



Joined: 01/09/2007
Posts: 1974

Message Posted:
05/08/2008 12:34

pike

i did read you thread wrongly but it does not discount my post because like i said you still dont post both sides of the argument always what turkey and north cyprus have done!!! and as a reporter such as yourself you should be stating this irelavant of what forum you are on, so you acknowledge they were up to all sorts but you refuse to go into any detail about it becuae they have not been held accounted for it

yes i know what turkey has been accused off i.e missing persons, but rape and torture not sure about that did turkey get prosecuted for rape and torture crimes

once again going off the subject of turkey wanting a solution in cyprus, like you said i will be more than happy to discuss this and all other things that you want on a new subject

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
05/08/2008 21:18

eric



you post with such venom ,you are so anti turkish ,and yet you claim you have

no greek links ,i have found the footage ,still if you work for the bbc you would of already seen it ,i taped it of the main news at the time or are you saying it

did not happen ,are you saying that it could not of happened,our you saying

the greeks did nothing ,what were the greeks trying to do to the british in the 50s ..60s and finally achieved their goal .

if a flag is of no importance to the british ,which i dont believe ,then why in gods name go all the way to argentina start a war just so you can re raise it

i have many greek friends eric not many that live in green lanes as they are

very successful, and i have never met or have come across any with such

venom and dislike as you ,what makes a person dislike someone so much .



have a nice day eric

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
05/08/2008 21:56

ukturk,



What is stopping evidence of atrocities by other powers being acted on? The ECHR spent a long time going over the evidence before finding Turkey guilty. But why not GR/GC? I'd be delighted to point out the other side of the coin if the international courts had the evidence, which surely they must have? But in answer to your question, I'm afraid Turkey was found guilty of a lot more than the missing. That's what I fear - that people in their own community don't know about and therefore can't learn from the sins if their own side.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
05/08/2008 22:02

MUSIN: "you post with such venom ,you are so anti turkish..."



Wrong. I'm anti ignorance, anti-nationalist and anti-extremist. On either side.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
05/08/2008 22:07

eric



you are none of those things

ukturk



Joined: 01/09/2007
Posts: 1974

Message Posted:
06/08/2008 00:34

pike

you should not fear about the north cypriot community, you alone cant change the views of our people how ever hard you try with your constant barrage of negativity was you not the one who bangs on about us people living in the past, you have made yourself clear that you dislike turkey for what they have done in the past, now what qualms have you got directed toward the turkish cypriot community is it there fault that the north are not even acknowledged is this not a human rights issue aswell? or would you disagree to this aswell



so you are saying you are anti nationalist anti extremist so that means you must dislike and not agree with parts of gc's community who tried to join cyprus with greece in such a nationlistic and extremist way or will you be pro ignorant and not say such a thing



to your comment about turkey was found guilty of many other things like rape and torture these accusations were never justified i can list you the things that the echr reported on 1) missing persons 2) the rights of property of displaced Greek Cypriots 3) the living conditions of the enclaved, so lets stick to the facts shall we

ukturk

dirty harry


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 34

Message Posted:
06/08/2008 01:10

pte pike msg 114



General Belgrano was an Argentine Navy cruiser sunk in a controversial incident during the Falklands War with the loss of 323 lives. Losses from the Belgrano totalled just over half of Argentine deaths in the Falklands conflict.



Cause célèbre



The Belgrano was sunk outside the 200-nautical-mile (370 km) total exclusion zone around the Falklands.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
06/08/2008 02:37

ukturk: "...so you are saying you are anti nationalist anti extremist so that means you must dislike and not agree with parts of gc's community..."



That's why I said: "on either side". I thought I made it clear enough. I don't think you're taking in half of what I say - and I don't think your views are representative of the TC community in Cyprus.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
06/08/2008 02:42

dirty harry msg 144,



The Belgrano was a war crime for which Thatcher should have been held accountable. Did you think I would have approved of the sinking?

ukturk



Joined: 01/09/2007
Posts: 1974

Message Posted:
06/08/2008 14:24

pike

thats the problem you have not made yourself clear, all you have said is that they were all up to kinds of things would you care to eloabrate on this for a person who does not take in half what a person says and show to all of us members that you know and acknowledge both sides of the problem



you can think all you want and you are intitlted to your view but belive you me most of the majority of people on this forum and people i know and have spoken to in cyprus share the same kind of view as i do and i can count on my right hand the people who share your view even thou your posts entertain and amuse me and i enjoy our constructive debates

ukturk

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
06/08/2008 15:38

Pike



Yor view of the Belgrano incident sums it all up for me.



We were at war!





In WW2 would you say to a Spitfire pilot "Don't shoot down that Fokker, even though it's bombed UK towns and killed civilians, because it's flying away over the Channel?"



Or to a Destroyer Captain " Don't depth charge that U boat, even though it's just sunk merchant ships with high loss of life, because it's sailing away from us?"



Or similarly to the Pilot of the Enola Gay.



War or invasions are not pretty, someone has to make decisions, popular or not.







I thank god you are not involved in any National or International decisions!



Writing for the BBC is probably the best cosy PC thing for you, just a step away from being in a padded cell where you cant hurt yourself or anyone else.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
06/08/2008 20:11

ROBnJO,



We're all entitled to our own opinions. Mine is that the vessel did not pose a threat and was heading away at the time. The sinking of Belgrano was an act which escalated the war - and suited Thatcher's political ambitions. Your WW2 analogies appear to be underpinned by revenge and are irrelevent here. The question is about threat and needless loss of life. Your reply could be expected of a Sun or other tabloid reader.



"I thank god you are not involved in any National or International decisions!"



Wrong!

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
06/08/2008 20:17

ukturk,



That's pretty much a full circle for us now. There's always two sides to a coin and so it is with Cyprus. I'm pretty sure you've seen the international article I wrote that was published way back. The Sunday Herald would not have touched it if it hadn't been balanced and unbiased. But note I gave the last word to a TC, as I considered they suffered from lack of voice in the international media.

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
06/08/2008 20:31

Pike



You stated : "The Belgrano was a war crime for which Thatcher should have been held accountable."



The Belgrano was the largest best equipped warship they had. What was it doing there? On an island cruise?? We were at war, so were they!





That is not an open minded journalistic view,.... that is a direct biased political comment from someone who bleats on endlessly about being fair to both sides of any dispute, but despite your claimed 'fairness', you are obviously opinionated on everything you discuss. I don't think you understand 'balanced & unbiased'.



Professional Journalism is obviously not your thing!



p.s. I never buy the Sun or other tabloids,....



yet another wild assumption from you.





rob

frontalman



Joined: 28/02/2008
Posts: 499

Message Posted:
06/08/2008 21:55

'What is your name?'



Don't tell him, Pike!



When all said and done there's very little chance of any agreement now or ever. Talat is playing the game, because he has to - same for Christofias. Even if a document is produced at the end a resounding 'OXI' will resonate from the South. Talks will break down, after delays and game-playing, then creeping recognition will follow for the TRNC.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
06/08/2008 22:10

frontalman



do you know why ,becouse the greeks will want more than they can have

no change there then.

i agree with you whole heartitly ,its only history repeating itself.



however recognition will follow ,but when.



musin

bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
06/08/2008 22:13

Can we get access to your article Pike? Title, date and author would be helpful.



Spot on Frontalman, the outcome is cut and dried already.

pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
06/08/2008 22:42

status quo looks favourite. but could be the catalyst for recognition.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
06/08/2008 23:15

susanne



and the greeks dont build illegally on turkish land ,you must be tired gori mu







eyi aksamlar

bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
06/08/2008 23:28

I'm sure most on this board will support the TC's whatever their decision. Although I would agree that some TC land is being looked after, surely you must admit that most TC houses and land no longer exist.



The GC Governemnt has bulldozed much of what was left. This began in the 1960's as the TC's fled their villages and then was performed under the guise of compulsory purchase orders.



People who have bought GC property should pay compensation, but as far as I can make out most that have done this are aware of the consequences of their actions and are simply waiting to see what will be asked of them.



I hope there is reunification but I can see that the TC will be worried about their safety from speaking to many and reading the contents of this forum and others. You might spout friendship and joining hands with your brothers but many have experienced hatred when working/visiting the south.



Amazed that you stated TC's owned HUGH amounts of land in the South. That must be a first!



Despite this I totally agree we Brits should have no say in this, the decision has to be made by the TC's and GC's. I hope whatever happens it results in a new beginning for both sides.

dirty harry


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 34

Message Posted:
07/08/2008 00:27

susanne

Learn the facts before you comment on an intricate issue,it seems from what little knowledge you have, may come from your 84yr old father-inlaw which seems biased,perhaps if you had a crystal ball to see into the past you may see the the true ' likes of your 84yr old father-inlaw' .



Shalom



DH

pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
07/08/2008 00:39

Personally I think us foreingners would gain more by unification, but my financial gain is not paramount when I consider what I feel would be the positive and negative outcomes of any settlement reached under the current circumstances. I feel there is a disparity of influence the parties involved can exert and worry the TRNC will not achieve a satisfactory settlement.Therefore although there would be benefits from an actual working membership of the EU and immediate lifting of embargos.

I feel there is a danger of a political imbalance which could affect the Turkish Cypriot populations chances of achieving their aspirations of equality with Greek Cypriots in many areas of life.

Many Greek Cypriots living in the south already have most of the considered neccessary attributes/freedoms of modern day life and currently the Turkish Cypriots are rapidly enjoying more of these as each day passes inspite of the current status quo of embargo and non 'international recognition', but actually the recognition snowball of North Cyprus is rolling and growing steadily.

This fact has to be considered by Tc's as eventual recognition will come to a

'state' created by their choices on issues affecting their life. A circumstance which could change post unification.

Having invested in the TRNC we foriegners have a right to our views, even if we don't have the right to vote. Interesting times and I,m sure I'll go on enjoying this beutiful oasis, North and South whatever the outcome of talks.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
07/08/2008 00:52

paul



how do you think foreingners would benefit from unification,are you sure the

greeks will welcome you as we do ,history says no .





regards

musin

pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
07/08/2008 01:04

Musin

Property prices may rise to those comparable with south and actual day to day EU membership gives brits more rights and recognition will make travel cheaper all gains as long as were allowed or able to stay.

ukturk



Joined: 01/09/2007
Posts: 1974

Message Posted:
07/08/2008 01:31

anna

you are wrong anyone who has some sort of concern in cyprus wants a peacefull solution some might want it through unfication some thru independance wotever way it has gone too long, but you have to remember it has to be benifcial to both sides and more so the north, they cant be blinded by the promise of a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, you also got to remeber the south can play hardball cos they have not got nothing to loose they have no embargoes against them and also they are in the e.u a thriving toursit trade aswell as housing and local and international buisness market

you say all people should not live in the past but its because of this everyone is sceptical which you should know just ask your 84 year old father in law is he really that prepared to give up his land he is occupying!!!!! why did he take it in the first place if he is so free and easy of giving it back??

and really the only negativity i can see comes only from a few of people on this forum all the rest are quite objective

paradise cant change for the better cos its paradise but it can turn for the worse and become hell

and its your typical greek attitude thats says tough and thank godness we are not eligable to voice our opinions thats wot has surpressed us as a turkish cypriot race not being allowed to say anything or be heard but at least now we are getting heard thru the mouths of the outsiders you only have to look at sue and paul who both are intelligent people and take on board both sides and make their own desicions

i await your response the answer you get from your father in law on what he thinks on the whole situation

ukturk

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
07/08/2008 02:06

Msg 155: "status quo looks favourite."



Two bar blues is no substitute for a lasting settlement.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
07/08/2008 02:11

Bradus: "Can we get access to your article Pike? Title, date and author would be helpful."



By "we" don't you mean "you"? Tsk...



http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4156/is_19990718/ai_n13940629

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
07/08/2008 02:18

ROBnJo: "...you are obviously opinionated on everything you discuss."



Isn't having an opinion the definition of normal intelligent debate? I can keep it simple just for you, if you like.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
07/08/2008 02:21

susanne msg 156,



I couldn't agree more. As my colleague Cpl Jones would say: "They don't like it up 'em, Mr Mainwaring!"

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
07/08/2008 02:25

Bradus: "...surely you must admit that most TC houses and land no longer exist."



A ludicrous suggestion. Where do you get your information from?

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
07/08/2008 02:30

Bradus: "...many have experienced hatred when working/visiting the south."



Like how many of all Turkish Cypriots who have been crossing over daily for many years? A fraction of one per cent? Not even that? Say this kind of thing to a normal, non-extremist TC going about their everyday business and they would probably laugh in your face. Do you think President Talat would agree with you?

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
07/08/2008 02:33

dirty harry msg 159: "Shalom."



Must be a Yank variant.

Chessman


Joined: 13/05/2008
Posts: 486

Message Posted:
07/08/2008 11:58

This is not really following the thread but as this has been mentioned previously, it may assist with deliberations on this particular aspect.



Command and control



''The sinking of the Belgrano was a necessary part of the successful maritime campaign to repossess the Falklands after its unprovoked seizure by Argentina. The elimination of the latter's fleet inside territorial waters was a precondition for British victory.



Those really responsible for the deaths of the Argentinian sailors on board the old cruiser were the military junta led by General Galtieri. In 1994, Buenos Aires concurred with the Thatcher administration that the Belgrano sinking had been a 'legal act of war', and the Argentinian governments since have not had change of heart on this matter.



The real issues about the sinking were technical ones of command and control. The fact that the affair was blown up out of all recognition in London is more a comment on the dynamics of the contemporary British political system and the weaknesses of Mrs Thatcher's closed approach to government than on the politico-strategic and operational realities of what happened in the south Atlantic''



Dr Eric Grove is a senior lecturer in politics and international studies at the University of Hull, where he is also director of the Centre for Security Studies. He is the author of a number of books, including Vanguard to Trident, The Future of Sea Power, Fleet to Fleet Encounters, The Price of Disobedience and The Royal Navy 1815-2000 (forthcoming).



Full article

http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/H/history/a-b/belgrano.html

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
07/08/2008 14:22

I actually met Chris Wreford-Jones who was Captain of the submarine that sank the Belgrano. He was told afterwards that although he had obeyed orders his career in the navy was effectively finished. The government/establishment got him a job as Director of Paignton Zoo.

I have to say that when I met him he was not a happy person.

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
07/08/2008 14:29

Sorry, I should have said Chris Wreford-Brown. My memory is going.

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
07/08/2008 15:03

I believe he was awarded a DSO and accepted early retirement.



Albeit a wartime action, that was a massive burden to carry for the rest of your life.



Luckily most of us will never have to face such decisions in life.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
07/08/2008 18:44

ROBnJO: "Luckily most of us will never have to face such decisions in life."



Indeed. So much easier to try and justify the needless deaths of young sailors on the internet.

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
07/08/2008 19:22

Pike



You're doing it again!



The Belgrano and her destroyer escort were not returning to port, they were still in active mode and could have turned to attack British forces at any time.

That is well documented by Argentine official reports.



Whose to say that she could not have returned to the conflict within minutes and been responsible for the deaths of hundreds of 'young' British forces and civilians?



You don't know,.. I don't know.

frontalman



Joined: 28/02/2008
Posts: 499

Message Posted:
07/08/2008 23:08

Susanne, it's not a question of not wanting reunification. It just can't happen. The GCs and TCs were never unified in the first place even when sharing a village (e.g. Akdeniz) the GCs lived on one side and the TCs on the other. The two leaders have to find a way of selling joint separateness to their electorates. as Private Pike would say it's just total b****cks!

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
07/08/2008 23:38

frontalman



you are a 100% correct how no one has mentioned it before is beyond me ,

how i have forgotten is beyond me ,the only time they mixed is if they married

in our village there was a guy whose father was turkish and mother greek

he lived two doors away from us.

dirty harry


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 34

Message Posted:
08/08/2008 00:15

frontalman

You deserve a gold star for raising a significant point, the greek and turkish cypriots were never unified. It's total b****cks with a capital B as pte pike would say... ............. stupid boy !

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
08/08/2008 00:22

dh



are you really dh smith and wesson"is that how you spell it"

shalom

mitsi


Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 345

Message Posted:
14/08/2008 09:55

Totally agree. If Military leave we will be at peril and would leave with them.

Quite frankly I don't know what Turkey is getting from this deal anyway. It just seems to cost them dear for no return. BUT I am glad that they are here. They seem to be moving forward in leaps and bounds in their own country and maybe we are in the wrong place.

mitsi


Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 345

Message Posted:
14/08/2008 10:27

Totally agree. If Military leave we will be at peril and would leave with them.

Quite frankly I don't know what Turkey is getting from this deal anyway. It just seems to cost them dear for no return. BUT I am glad that they are here. They seem to be moving forward in leaps and bounds in their own country and maybe we are in the wrong place.

Message 117. DREAM ON.