["CULTURAL CRIME..."] Brits 're-use' medieval stones to build a road!North Cyprus Forums Homepage Join Cyprus44 Board | Already a member? Login
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DutchCrusader
Joined: 19/05/2008 Posts: 11281
Message Posted: 03/01/2011 16:39 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 1 of 37 in Discussion |
| When you realise that vast amounts of medieval stone and building material ("old stones") were plundered from Famagusta to build Alexandria and the Suez Canal in Egypt... Then you may think it was the only 'cultural crime' during the British Colonial Rule (1878-1960) - but it wasn't. It happened only a century ago elsewhere in Cyprus also. Of the famous Crusader castle of Sigouri, hardly the outlines of its walls and moat survived. The last fragments of its masonry were removed... to repair the high road in its vincinity and build some bridges in that road. The Brits only had the bright idea and supervised it, convicts did the hard labour... Unknowingly you may have past the last remains of Sigouri Castle one day on your way to the border crossing of Beyarmudu (Pile). This spring it's worth to stop there for an hour or so and look around where once heavy fighting took place... Map (and informative text via links above the map): ▶ [ http://is.gd/jyGKM ]. |
Pugwash
Joined: 06/09/2010 Posts: 1797
Message Posted: 03/01/2011 17:01 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 2 of 37 in Discussion |
| DC surely you are not serious? while it may be a "shame" now it was a sensible thing to do in those times, the same has happened everywhere. |
DutchCrusader
Joined: 19/05/2008 Posts: 11281
Message Posted: 03/01/2011 17:10 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 3 of 37 in Discussion |
| Pugwash, next time I'll write 'tongue in cheek' above my posts... However. "They" saw things different from us a century ago - but some already knew exactly what was destroyed for ever. The great Cyprus expert Camille Enlart (†) wrote in 1899: "The present government of Cyprus has been guilty of a gross act of vandalism although with the laudable intention of creating a good road and some bridges; the stones from the ruins of Sigouri have been removed practically to the very last one for these purposes. This is the less excusable since there is plenty of stone in the neighbourhood and since labour is cheap, particularly for the government which employs convicts on public works." |
Pugwash
Joined: 06/09/2010 Posts: 1797
Message Posted: 03/01/2011 17:17 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 4 of 37 in Discussion |
| I agree I wish it had not happened too, but look in history how many times all over the world this has happened, if only they could look forward, but alas. |
DutchCrusader
Joined: 19/05/2008 Posts: 11281
Message Posted: 03/01/2011 17:21 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 5 of 37 in Discussion |
| Small quiz for the readers of this thread: What is left of the huge Royal (Lusignan) Palace in Nicosia, what is it and where is it exhibited? |
CJtill
Joined: 02/05/2008 Posts: 836
Message Posted: 03/01/2011 17:32 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 6 of 37 in Discussion |
| It has happened time and time again, that a Country that wins a victory\conquers a City when playing away, tends to destroy whatever was there, to remind the locals of the power the conquers have. Its a dont do it again phylosophy, and in general it seems to work, examples of this could include the Russians forcing back the Germans in the second world war and destroying everything in their path to Berlin. The British and French armies entering Peking back in the 1860s, and destroying everyting. There are many, many more. Is it right? For the conquerers yes of course, for the historian 100 years later, no. Michael |
DutchCrusader
Joined: 19/05/2008 Posts: 11281
Message Posted: 03/01/2011 17:48 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 7 of 37 in Discussion |
| RE msg 6, CJtill: I respect your point of view, but I don't agree. What happened in Cyprus during the British Colonial Rule had nothing to do with war or reminding the locals of the British power. It was simply 1900 and people didn't think the way we (should) do now. Furthermore the Brits only did what the locals (Cypriot Turks and Greek speaking Cypriots) have been doing for many centuries and all over the island: just take the stones where you find them and re-use them! Easy quarrying! And before any misunderstanding arises: that's why I wrote cultural crime as "Cultural crime" in the subject title. |
DutchCrusader
Joined: 19/05/2008 Posts: 11281
Message Posted: 03/01/2011 17:51 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 8 of 37 in Discussion |
| Anyone interested in the answer for my 'mini-quiz' in message 5? |
greenman
Joined: 16/02/2008 Posts: 526
Message Posted: 03/01/2011 18:06 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 9 of 37 in Discussion |
| Of the famous Lusignan Palace only one vaulted hall has survived, known today as Kasteliotissa. This mansion and its gothic elements were a part of the Lusignan Palace which was built at the turn of 13th and 14th century. The mansion, in Nicosia, has been restored lately and serves as a Cultural Centre in which various events take place. |
darrener2
Joined: 30/12/2008 Posts: 187
Message Posted: 03/01/2011 18:22 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 10 of 37 in Discussion |
| The exceptionally beautiful gothic window currently being exhibited at the Lapidary Museum. D2 |
DutchCrusader
Joined: 19/05/2008 Posts: 11281
Message Posted: 03/01/2011 18:45 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 12 of 37 in Discussion |
| Lapidar = Lapidary. Sorry, typo. |
MartinM
Joined: 03/10/2009 Posts: 166
Message Posted: 04/01/2011 11:38 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 13 of 37 in Discussion |
| As far as I'm aware, a little closer to home, the Brits buried Roman Marble columns into the pavement around Kyrenia harbour so that ships could tie up to them. Also from the castle end of the harbour to the "inner lighthouse" a walkway was constructed with more columns but of yellow stone. |
DutchCrusader
Joined: 19/05/2008 Posts: 11281
Message Posted: 04/01/2011 12:26 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 15 of 37 in Discussion |
| I didn't intend to insult my British friends, so let's put it all into perspective. 1: The Brits used stones etc (see above). 2: The Ottoman Turks used materials from Salamis. Example: see the fountains in Famagusta (all built with a Roman, marble sarcophagus, marble lintels etc). 3: The Venetians 'borrowed' from Salamis also. Prime example: Famagusta. The granite columns (Residency of the Venetian Governor, the two granite columns where Bragadino died, flayed alive). 4: The Lusignans 'borrowed' from Salamis. Examples in many of their churches. 5: The Byzantines built with material from Salamis also. Kyrenia Castle, the remains of the Byzantine fortress. Etc, etc. They are all guilty... |
rocky
Joined: 17/10/2007 Posts: 1749
Message Posted: 04/01/2011 14:48 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 16 of 37 in Discussion |
| thank God the British have done something....if we left it to the dutch nothing would get done,,have you heard they have been trying to build a metro for years in Amsterdam ...in the sand sea and silt |
DutchCrusader
Joined: 19/05/2008 Posts: 11281
Message Posted: 04/01/2011 15:01 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 17 of 37 in Discussion |
| 1: There we go again. Nothing to say, but hijack the thread and write he shall. Sad attitude. 2: Amsterdam has a metro sinds 1970. Indeed: in the sand, mud and other soft stuff. But why would you check the facts, eh? ▶ [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdam_Metro ]. |
rocky
Joined: 17/10/2007 Posts: 1749
Message Posted: 04/01/2011 19:49 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 18 of 37 in Discussion |
| sorry I meant to say trying to complete the metro |
gromit
Joined: 28/10/2010 Posts: 75
Message Posted: 04/01/2011 20:43 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 19 of 37 in Discussion |
| Hans Your header and 1st post did accuse 'Brits' of cultural crime. You ony included 'other' National criminals in later posts. It was only by post 15 you apologised for singling out the 'Brits'. Poor show my man! |
Denny
Joined: 09/12/2010 Posts: 261
Message Posted: 04/01/2011 23:19 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 20 of 37 in Discussion |
| Every coloniser of Cyprus has exploited the island for their own ends with the natives quite far down in the list of priorities. The Turks are just the most recent. But even a cursory look around will show the system of central and local government and huge improvements to infrastructure and water systems carried out by the British up until they pulled out in 1960. |
daisy dukes
Joined: 06/09/2008 Posts: 3815
Message Posted: 11/01/2011 19:56 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 22 of 37 in Discussion |
| It seems to me re-cycling at it's best!! What else were they supposed to use...that was cheap and got the job done...? DD |
DutchCrusader
Joined: 19/05/2008 Posts: 11281
Message Posted: 11/01/2011 20:17 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 23 of 37 in Discussion |
| RE msg 22: (...) What else were they supposed to use...that was cheap and got the job done...? (...) ▶ FROM MESSAGE 3 IN THIS THREAD: "... This is the less excusable since there is plenty of stone in the neighbourhood ..." |
daisy dukes
Joined: 06/09/2008 Posts: 3815
Message Posted: 11/01/2011 20:25 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 24 of 37 in Discussion |
| hmmm....SO HE SAYS.....maybe he was paid to say that! DD |
DutchCrusader
Joined: 19/05/2008 Posts: 11281
Message Posted: 11/01/2011 20:38 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 25 of 37 in Discussion |
| RE msg 24: The late Mr Enlart, the greatest expert on Cyprus (Gothic & Renaissance) the world has known, need not be defended here. So about your remark: Evil doers are evil dreaders. |
daisy dukes
Joined: 06/09/2008 Posts: 3815
Message Posted: 11/01/2011 20:55 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 26 of 37 in Discussion |
| As much as I admire your attempts to remind us of this countries heritage, I am afraid that you have reached the point that you would rather drown us in what you believe to be the correct course of action than to allow us to follow our own beliefs. You stick to ruining the planet in order to save a lost civilization if you wish, I personally prefer to utilize what has already been raped from nature by our ancestors and reuse it to help build our future, instead of wallowing in the past, perhaps we should praise our ancestors for their forward thinking! Also, who says this Mr Enlart is the worlds greatest expert on Cyprus anyway?? DD |
rocky
Joined: 17/10/2007 Posts: 1749
Message Posted: 11/01/2011 21:05 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 27 of 37 in Discussion |
| I guess the Dutch use the suez canal for imports and exports so they too benefit from the brilliant engineering of the suez canal .Just coz the dutch wear wooden clogs they think they can walk on water and be superior If I wish to educate myself on history I would read appropriate refernence books not this thread. |
negativenick
Joined: 10/11/2008 Posts: 6023
Message Posted: 11/01/2011 21:09 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 28 of 37 in Discussion |
| i think its most un fair people calling Dutch "Cloggy" surely he can't be that bad - can he ?? |
DutchCrusader
Joined: 19/05/2008 Posts: 11281
Message Posted: 11/01/2011 21:12 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 29 of 37 in Discussion |
| RE msg 26: (...) I personally prefer to utilize what has already been raped from nature by our ancestors and reuse it to help build our future (...) ▶ Shall we start tearing down the Tower of London to help build a new road to Manchester with these "old stones"? P.S. I'm no longer interested in your efforts to revive this thread. The last word is yours - as usual. |
daisy dukes
Joined: 06/09/2008 Posts: 3815
Message Posted: 11/01/2011 21:29 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 30 of 37 in Discussion |
| I am sorry to say that I believe you are below your normal par for a debate, you have obviously not got all your ducks in a row today, why not get some old bread sit down and feed them and contemplate the fact that writing that a national monument should be destroyed in order to repair roads to Manchester is an equal statement to what is happening here is anywhere close to sensible. As it happens, if I believed that knocking down the Tower of London would help in anyway avoid the destruction of the planet then I would definitely agree to it, but then if we were to truly allow nature to take its course, Holland would have been flooded by now. DD If the Tower of London could help build a bridge to Mars or to any planet that may help the human race ...then i would give a resounding YES!! |
Jetski
Joined: 21/07/2008 Posts: 584
Message Posted: 11/01/2011 23:33 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 31 of 37 in Discussion |
| Dutch.... to those living within their own cultural history it is not 'history' if you haven't the education to understand it, value it and use it to your advantage. We see this everywhere here. Unless there is a penny to be made from it, it is worthless. I weep for the lost heritage and lost knowledge that this wonderful island has sacrificed in the pursuit of a few shekels. |
DutchCrusader
Joined: 19/05/2008 Posts: 11281
Message Posted: 12/01/2011 08:41 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 32 of 37 in Discussion |
| RE msg 31, Jetski: (...) to those living within their own cultural history it is not 'history' if you haven't the education to understand it, value it and use it to your advantage. etc (...) ▶ Jetski, I wish I had written it the way you did. To whom it may concern. Unfortunately this board has become a pool of uneducated people and sharks. It's time to look for greener pastures when ignorant people in a thread like this start writing about 'the Dutch and the Suez Canal" or question the integrity and fame of Mr Enlart. I know from reactions there are a lot of C44 members who appreciate to read and maybe learn something about Cyprus - I'll try to find another way of communicating with them. C44 is now the place for the "Ha ha, how funny" brigade. I don't feel comfortable in their company. Well, so be it. |
TheSaints
Joined: 28/01/2009 Posts: 1369
Message Posted: 12/01/2011 10:49 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 33 of 37 in Discussion |
| You really do have a very high opinion of yourself and a very low opinion of the members of this board. Have you ever stopped to consider that they may just not be interested in what you continuously post about and have interests of thier own that they prefer to persue? you can not refer to members as uneducated people and sharks just for that. I really can not understand your attitude of late you have always been up yourself but lately you seem to go out of your way to agravate people and insult the forum members, there has been no other member of this forum that has gotten away with as much insulting behaviour as you without getting banned. |
DutchCrusader
Joined: 19/05/2008 Posts: 11281
Message Posted: 12/01/2011 11:08 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 34 of 37 in Discussion |
| RE msg 33, TheSaints: Whatever you say, Mike. Here or elsewhere. :-; |
TheSaints
Joined: 28/01/2009 Posts: 1369
Message Posted: 12/01/2011 11:25 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 35 of 37 in Discussion |
| as expected a short and imature reponse which fits perfectly within your pattern of behaviour when someone shows that they can debate at your level or makes a factual statement you personally do not like for example see your p.s. on msg 29 that is only one of many that is an example of this trait and that is said on here not elswhere. i |
Rottolover
Joined: 21/06/2009 Posts: 519
Message Posted: 12/01/2011 13:55 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 36 of 37 in Discussion |
| I quite enjoy some of these spicy debates, and this one is no exception. But I have to say, TheSaints, that unless you can make better use of your punctuation, spelling and grammar checker in order to make your posts readable, I find it a bit too difficult trying to decipher your replies. |
AlsancakJack
Joined: 14/08/2008 Posts: 5762
Message Posted: 12/01/2011 14:22 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 37 of 37 in Discussion |
| This thread is now closed.
Reason: Thread went off topic. |
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