possible ongoing fraud ??????

swyflot


Joined: 07/11/2008
Posts: 916

Message Posted:
01/02/2011 18:01

i HOPE I AM WRONG,

weighed my SO CALLED EMPTY JET GAS CYLINDERS

1st one tare weight 13.6kg empty weight 16.9kg 3.3kg of gas still in

2nd one tare weight 13.2kg empty weight 14.3kg 1.1kg of gas still in



if this is widespread, then a huge amount of money is being made at the expense of Jet gas customers.

The only way you can have gas left in the cylinder is when the internal syphon tube is cut short.

My first bottle was tested in November 2010,you have to remove the syphon tube to internally inspect the cylinder,you then check the tube against a bench fixed yardstick.

All the information you need is stamped on the cylinder

Pugwash


Joined: 06/09/2010
Posts: 1797

Message Posted:
01/02/2011 18:09

It is about pressure, and changes with temperature.

Scoty


Joined: 23/05/2010
Posts: 846

Message Posted:
01/02/2011 18:30

I believe that you will always have gas left. The bigger the container, the bigger ammount that cannot be used. As msg 2, down to pressure etc

stevo-london


Joined: 23/10/2010
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
01/02/2011 19:20

why cant it be used ? we are charged for it are we not? surely we should be able to consume it ??

swyflot


Joined: 07/11/2008
Posts: 916

Message Posted:
01/02/2011 19:40

base of cylinder is convex, syphon tube should reach the lower level,then virtually all the gas will get used despite temperature or pressures.

The empty cylinder is then recharged,any gas left in the empty bottle is pure profit when they refill,so who is ripping who off,if it is deliberate then it is fraud on a massive scale,the shorter the syphon tube,the more gas is left in the so called empty bottle

suehowlittle


Joined: 31/10/2010
Posts: 1202

Message Posted:
01/02/2011 19:41

I have often wondered why one gas container seems to last for ages and then the next one runs out veryquickly. Deputydawg has often expressed the same opinion about gas containers.



Is this a scam? Would we ever find out?

Smity



Joined: 14/09/2009
Posts: 826

Message Posted:
01/02/2011 19:48

I always fill my gas tank up in winter when the gas is less expanded and you can get as much as 2% more on a large delivery thats a saving

swyflot


Joined: 07/11/2008
Posts: 916

Message Posted:
01/02/2011 23:29

on my two cylinders, it worked out at approx a 10% underfill, on a refill cost of 31 tl ,that works out as 3.1tl,multiply that by several hundred thousand refills and you finish up with a major theft, i assume the goverment,ie the police,etc monitor this site,would welcome their import, someone is making a killing

RentMono


Joined: 27/12/2010
Posts: 24

Message Posted:
01/02/2011 23:59

when you feel that you still have gas in your cylinder just pour some hot water on it. especially if you keep it outdoors. you are almost everytime able to get some more out of it. unless its fully finished. no one would say that you have gas left in it and not change it for you.

if you go to a restaurant and order a plate while your eatin they wouldnt turn around and say we wont serve unless you finish your plate. would they?



Mus

deputydawg


Joined: 30/03/2010
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
02/02/2011 07:44

In the 1970s in Cyprus a standard gas bottle for the cooker only, for a family of 7 lasted us a minimum of 3 months. In 2004 a gas bottle for 2 of us lasted at least 3 months. Subsequently, year on year, for the same average useage, we can do no better than to get a bottle to last perhaps 7 weeks and on occasion as little as 3 weeks. Using a measure far more accurate than scales, ie "how much does my hernia hurt" when I lift the bottles before and after use I deduce that there is a fundamental shortfall in the filling or the amount which remains unused in the bottle. There is also a lack of pressure when in use. I wonder what form quality control takes with the suppliers and what if any inspections are made by officialdom. My guess is very little or nil

swyflot


Joined: 07/11/2008
Posts: 916

Message Posted:
02/02/2011 08:33

the most accurate way of measuring the amount of gas left,is by weighing with a properly certified set of scales,and the gas company should be useing this method with an automatic cutoff device,in case the operator accidentally overfills the cylinder,possibly causing an explosion.

In the next few days i shall take my scales to my local gas retailer and checkweigh the stock of empty returned bottles

denizen



Joined: 21/08/2009
Posts: 388

Message Posted:
02/02/2011 08:37

friends of ours have an instant hot water heater. It is on the roof beside the water tank. When it no longer heats the water they put on a new bottle and put the EMPTY bottle on the cooker or heater. It lasts for quite a while longer. Don't know if it's because the water heater bottle is outside or the pressure needs to be high to operate the water heater, but that's what happens.

swyflot


Joined: 07/11/2008
Posts: 916

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 08:28

Checked the empty bottles at my local jetgas supplier out of some 20 so called empty bottles all but one still had gas in them, between 1.5kg and 3kg,two bottles had in excess of 6kg,the shopkeeper said it has always been a problem,but he puts up with it because in Turkey tha same bottles are 51ytl.



The one empty bottle that was brand new, so i suspect it had the orignal manufacturers SYPHON TUBE in it.



So my original question remains the same,is it bad working practice,or a sustained and deliberate fraud,if it is just bad working practice,then if Jetgas would care to contact me i will show the how to do the job correctly

doggiesteve


Joined: 06/10/2010
Posts: 265

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 09:29

a sustained and deliberate fraud without a doubt, no wher else would it be permitted except in the Turkish republic of NEPOTISM AND CORRUPTION.

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 09:44

doggiesteve

You have made an allegation. Now prove it.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 09:47

Right, msg 1! Fraud! I don't even trust my gas-filled cigarette lighter anymore...

P.S. Fraud! Fraud! Fraud? How many of the people who are worried about the truth in msg 1 are using a "genuine version" of Windows - for 30 TL or so..?

Teresa


Joined: 21/11/2007
Posts: 1018

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 09:48

Swyflot i hope you have reported this not just to the papers but also to the belediye.

doggiesteve


Joined: 06/10/2010
Posts: 265

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 09:52

Message 15 most if not all countries have consumer protection laws that are enforced equally for all residents .



in the Turkish republic of NEPOTISM AND CORRUPTION. all the government says is you bought cheap pay more.

doggiesteve


Joined: 06/10/2010
Posts: 265

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 09:55

Message 15 have you any proof this is not the case as in Turkish republic of NEPOTISM AND CORRUPTION. you have to prove you are innocent , just ask mr . Davey in lefkosia prison !

GinaC


Joined: 26/11/2010
Posts: 372

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 09:56

The original title of this thread was possible fraud and yet msg 14 proclaims it to be 'deliberate fraud without a doubt'.



A very silly post in my opinion about a large business which could potentially do them some harm. I do hope you have evidence of such a fraud or a very large pot of money should there be a legal case.

Teresa


Joined: 21/11/2007
Posts: 1018

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 10:19

Gina i think he has already provided the evidence. Would you be happy to pay full price for a pint of milk and only get half a pint????

GinaC


Joined: 26/11/2010
Posts: 372

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 10:27

Sorry Teresa, I was commenting on message 14. It is so easy to make such comments based on what you read but in my opinion you have to have evidence yourself before making such silly comments as 'deliberate fraud without a doubt'

Teresa


Joined: 21/11/2007
Posts: 1018

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 10:36

Gina i apologise

GinaC


Joined: 26/11/2010
Posts: 372

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 10:47

There was no need Teresa but thanks anyway. To use your example:



'Would you be happy to pay full price for a pint of milk and only get half a pint'



Of course not but first I would bring this to the attention of the outlet who sold me the milk and then if required the manufacturer. It could be a problem on the production line affecting a certain batch of milk cartons. To call it 'deliberate fraud without a doubt' especially as the poster of message 14 appears to be basing their opinion on what swyflot has discovered is not the done thing in my view.



So many businesses are struggling here and posts such as these can be very damaging. I'm not disputing what swyflot has posted. They have first hand knowledge of what they have found.

deputydawg


Joined: 30/03/2010
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 12:14

Is there perhaps someone who uses gas bottles in the North and South of the Island and if so have noted any variance in quality ?

deputydawg


Joined: 30/03/2010
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 14:33

Swyflot. You will be aware that I share your view that all is not right with the provision of gas bottles though my observations have been anecdotal and you have taken the time to make note of measurements etc. Have you considered approaching the Consumer's Association with your findings ? I am aware of several cases of malpractice in which they have interceded with positive results and had dealings with Mr Yilmazisik at the Lefkosa office. He was very honest, and anxious to help, and it it clear that he is a good negotiator with a lot of clout. If you think this is worth exploring he can be contacted by e mail tukdere@superonline.com. Telephone 0392 228 9520 or 0392 229 0790.

swyflot


Joined: 07/11/2008
Posts: 916

Message Posted:
05/02/2011 09:50

Deputydawg,

Thanks for the info,shall contact them next week.

My business was in fire protection,and we refilled gaseous systems as well as CO2 extinguishers,same principles apply to gas bottles,when you have an empty space called the ullage space, you refill the cylinder with a predetermined amount of gas/co2 etc,then the air is compressed,at a given pressure this in turn expels the product via the syphon tube, bear in mind that these gases are in liquid form,that is why it is essential that the syphon tube is the correct length for all the product to be used

deputydawg


Joined: 30/03/2010
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
05/02/2011 11:42

swyflot. What an important and meticulous role you played. I recall doing a Fire Officers Course with Reigate, Surrey Fire Brigade many years ago. My team were given a demonstration of knocking down a fuel fire by going into the blaze with a hand held extinguisher being careful to keep in mind the need to keep spraying at 180% to avoid being trapped by a flash back/over and becoming engulfed. I was then given a hand held extinguisher and told to enter and knock down the fire as shown. Unfortunately the extinguisher I had leaked at the neck and the instant freezing of my fingers to the bone was agony and for hours afterwards felt as if I had been smashed on every finger by a club hammer. Gave the professional firemen a good laugh though as they thought I had suffered cowardice in the face of the enemy and had invented break dancing !

tarry67


Joined: 16/05/2008
Posts: 1053

Message Posted:
05/02/2011 15:20

In the uk a gas bottle costs £28 but it lasts for ages and ages, say on one bar, but here its gone in a couple of weeks if left on for the same amount of time. Even if it is double the price in the uk its still works out much more expensive. I never really thought about it until this thread was started.

Jetski


Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 584

Message Posted:
05/02/2011 21:08

Syphon tubes?....... are you sure? Perhaps for driving liquid from a pressurised container (like a soda stream or fire extinguisher) but not for LPG surely?..... the last thing you want is for liquid propane to come squirting out of the tank. Isn't the driver just vapour pressure?

swyflot


Joined: 07/11/2008
Posts: 916

Message Posted:
05/02/2011 23:32

It is a basic computation,

you design a container,play around wih the basic pressures.and arrive at the answer,you put in x,which displaces y and arrive at 0 .in other words an empty continer,as the meerkats say SIMPLES

stilluvithere



Joined: 03/12/2008
Posts: 765

Message Posted:
05/02/2011 23:45

I am not sure about this syphon thing. I was told many years ago that when the cylinder appears to be empty, give it a good shake and you will get some further use. I always do this, sometimes I can get a lot more, sometimes not so much, so I deduced that it is pressure rather than a syphon tube.

eralnecat


Joined: 06/02/2011
Posts: 1

Message Posted:
07/02/2011 01:21

Dear all. As the director of Jetgaz Ltd., I would like to invite anyone wishing to get more technical information about LPG or the cylinders to contact me personally from 225 3400 (ask for Eral Necat). I will also be happy to discuss these over a cup of tea or coffee if you have time to visit our offices in Nicosia.



However, there is a misunderstanding about the syphon (dip tube) that I want to clarify here. The household appliances (cookers etc.) use LPG in gas form whereas the syphon is used to obtain LPG in liquid form (cars and forklifts). Our cylinders are used for household appliances only, hence, there is no syphon underneath the valve.

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
07/02/2011 01:29

Msg 33

All CNG to me!



Richard

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
07/02/2011 01:32

Eral,

Thank you for the information you have supplied. So people should really ask the relevant people for an explanation before jumping to conclusions and accuse people of all sorts of things.



I was under the impression that the gas bottles we use for cooking is under sufficient pressure so as it is liquid but of course you know better. So what should be the weight of a standard bottle when full and also when empty?



I think there is some material at the bottom of the bottle for some reason which absorbs some of the gas and thus when it is almost empty I give it a shake and it lasts a little longer. Is this a safe practice or should I stop doing it? Its the Scottish gene in me getting the better of me

ismet

yenibob


Joined: 13/10/2010
Posts: 1203

Message Posted:
07/02/2011 07:33

So we have gone from "possible ongoing fraud" through "a sustained and deliberate fraud without a doubt" to probably no fraud at all.



We also have at least 1 "expert" who doesn't have a clue but sounded convincing. Seem about right for here?

swyflot


Joined: 07/11/2008
Posts: 916

Message Posted:
07/02/2011 07:42

The gas is in liquified form,and under pressure,so if under pressure how doe`s it get from the bottom of the container up to the distribution valve set,answer via a syphon tube as confirmed by Calor gas UK.

Yenibob you are being very offensive.

yenibob


Joined: 13/10/2010
Posts: 1203

Message Posted:
07/02/2011 07:44

Why did you automatically assume the "expert" was you?



Are you saying the man from Jetgaz is lying?

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
07/02/2011 09:17

Swyflot,

What is the normal pressure in the bottle when full and at what pressure and ambient temperatures does LPG liquidify? Can you supply some possible links on the subject please.



It will be interesting to have yours and Eral's replies on these questions so that we can make up our own minds as to who are the experts. My only criticism of you is that apparently you did not ask for an explanation from the interested company before taking the next public position i.e. you took the easy way out.

ismet

deputydawg


Joined: 30/03/2010
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
07/02/2011 09:54

Whatever the technical situation is and whether or not there is any scam involved may be uncertain but what is certain is that many are getting "less bang for their bucks" and it is totally appropriate to investigate the position. From my point of view I strongly suspect that there is often a shortfall of useable gas in the containers which seem to be under pressurised from the outset or subsequently leak.

Washerman


Joined: 19/09/2008
Posts: 2301

Message Posted:
07/02/2011 10:29

Yet another business reputation on its way to being ruined by a Cyprus 44 member - Is Stuart Sim a real person or, is this just another malicious posting from another 'anonimous' member?

Washerman


Joined: 19/09/2008
Posts: 2301

Message Posted:
07/02/2011 10:32

'anonymous'

swyflot


Joined: 07/11/2008
Posts: 916

Message Posted:
07/02/2011 10:44

Message 13,i did ask jetgas to contact me,no obvious reply received to date



Elko,I do not have the data available with regards to pressure,the cylinder manufacturer decides depending on media type,the pressures.usually the air in the empty cylinder is compressed when the cylinder is filled

The media is liquid ie LPG stands for Liquified Petroleum Gas.

The empty cylinder is full of air,when you pump in the gas,the air is compressed into the top of the cylinder known as the ullage space,this creates enough pressure to fully discharge the contents.

All cylinders should have the stamped on the collar the following

Type of media in the case of mixed gases the percentages of each,tare,gross weight,test date, date of manufacturer,manufacturer,plus other details