Bring back National Service for British Citizens

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 12:35

Look at the news lately:

Our young lads are in the armed forces serving all over the world and pay taxes on their income.

I have worked with Students/Teenagers in colleges and on Training Schemes for 30+ years so I am fully aware of all the pros and cons of

So-called students who cause riots in the streets because the want tax payers money via the EMA -

The crap about them needing it for this that and the other for their courses is just that crap. Having spent 30 in rooms listening to them discussing what they spend their money on I can assure you it's not stationery - that is the last thing on their mind.

Bring back national service and give them something to fight for!! - THEIR COUNTRY!!!!

yenibob


Joined: 13/10/2010
Posts: 1203

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 12:39

Why would our professional Army want conscripted layabouts? They would be a liability.

gooligan


Joined: 30/01/2007
Posts: 1591

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 12:40

That maybe but they would learn some manners and respect.

yenibob


Joined: 13/10/2010
Posts: 1203

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 12:43

And risk getting their "mates" killed. Cracking idea.

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 12:50

They should learn manners and respect at home and at school. It's not the job of the army to teach them.

If you wait until they are old enough to do National Service, you have left it too late!

Danatnorth


Joined: 25/04/2009
Posts: 105

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 12:57

'Mates being killed' unfortunately happens all the time in gang fights and drunken brawls. Theres plenty of other duties in the army to do other than the front lines. But message 5 your right by 7/18 its possibly too late! There seem to be many new words going into the dictionary but unfortunatly Respect and Effort have been removed to make space!!

Danatnorth


Joined: 25/04/2009
Posts: 105

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 13:01

lol 7 to 18... sorry 17/18! in the mines up the chimneys that quite funny, i should read before i post!

yenibob


Joined: 13/10/2010
Posts: 1203

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 13:03

Fantastic idea, the layabouts get the REMF jobs while the decent lads do the fighting. Why didn't I think of that? It would be great for morale.

Danatnorth


Joined: 25/04/2009
Posts: 105

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 13:33

Ive never been in the army so i know nothing about why people join or what they expect to do when they are there, but i thought (correct me if im wrong) If your a para trooper or in the sas or any commando type post you would not really care too much what the 'layabouts' are doing/painting/cleaning as long as they are not effecting the safety or quality of your job that you are highly trained to do.

Is it really a moral issue?

They wouldnt lose any money as they would only be paid the same in wages as they would be taking in benefits and i expect around 10% would actually join and serve in the real army as one of the main excuses for the problem teens is 'they are bored' so lets give them something to do!

PeeCee


Joined: 16/03/2009
Posts: 133

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 13:37

Like message 0ne, I've spent all my working careers with young people and would take a completely different line. The policy on Education Maintenance Awards recognised that to encourage young people from lower income families to stay on in school or colleges and gain qualifications, including vocational qualifications there was a need to give a financial incentive. The EMA is not a universal grant. The full £30 allowance is awarded only where the family income is less that £22331; £20 per week to £22332 - £27000, and £10 per week for those where the income is £27000 to £33000. Over that £0. The allowance will continue to be available to young people in Northern Ireland Wales and Scotland - so its only English kids that loose out. No - its not our kids who are crap rather its this government! The vast majority of our kids are great and we should be proud.

As far as conscription is concerned the last people who would want it are the Generals - believe me I know.

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 13:38

Hildy....msg 1..."Bring back national service and give them something to fight for!! - THEIR COUNTRY!!!! "



Do you really believe that that the brave men and women serving in Iraq and Afghanistan are fighting and losing their lives to defend OUR COUNTRY ?

deputydawg


Joined: 30/03/2010
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 13:46

Since the 1960s the British Army has improved year on year by fostering such attributes as self discipline, reliability, motivation, and an overall sense of team spirit, not blind obedience. The few wasters who get through the recruitment and selection processes are soon rejected as "retention undesirable in the interests of the Service". It is the responsibility of parents, by example, to guide their children towards a worthwhile existence and school staff to teach them the skills to take up employment.

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 13:46

My Son has been in the British Forces for 22 years and only left in July 2010. He was also in the Territorial Army - many of whom are serving full time now in Afganistan. My Husband was Staff Sargeant in the Territorial Army for 30 eyars in the Paras, Royal Engineers, Plant Squadron etc and worked as a civilian travelling to bases all over the UK and Europe on behalf of his unit.

Yes I have heard the arguements before about putting these people into the army - they put them on training schemes and I got them - but..... I might add that once into a situation where they have something to do, and got into the workplace, instead of lying around all day working out how to get into trouble - they developed as real people not lost souls.

My elder brothers did not have a choice - they went into National Service and fought in Adan, Egypt etc and most people who did will state that it did them good.

Look at what those 'so-called' students were doing the other week (for their beer money!!)

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 13:46

cronos is right.

Servicemen fight to stay alive and to keep their mates alive. My son has served several times in Iraq and Afghanistan on the front line and has said this many times.

In any case, why would yobs want to fight for something they don't see as "theirs"?

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 13:58

Message 11

YES!!!!!!

My Son is very proud of beign a British Serviceman.

PeeCee

I worked in Youth Training Schemes, Employment Training Schemes, Adult Education, Trained & Assessed in National Vocational Qualifications to level 5. When these schemes started they were paid a weekly training allowance and they had a 'contact' which was maintained and stated what they did in relation to sickness, holidays etc. They had weekly diaries stating what they had done (I still have my daughter's who at 16 was doing a companies wages). Unauthorised absences lead to disciplinary action - just the same as the workplace. They had to produce sick notes - just the same as the workplace. They were being trained to operate WITHIN THE WORKPLACE. My Son wasted a year staying on at school in 6th form - he spend the year in the common room playing cards when not in class. My Daughter went to college and had more fun going out with the other students and failed her O'levels required for nursing.

PeeCee


Joined: 16/03/2009
Posts: 133

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 14:00

This really is an odd argument. Our Services are professional and long may they remain so. People who join and are expensively trained (by the tax payer) are recruited because this is what they want. There will never be conscription again because it is unnecessary and very very expensive. The cost of training and supporting a service man or woman is considerably more than a college course including EMA where applicable - and not all young people are entitled to it.

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 14:03

When she failed her 'O' levels I insisted she went onto a Training Scheme and went to night schools to gain her qualifications, with me, as I was also doing night schools. All 3 of us got our results on the same day and we all passed.

As a result of the Training Schemes my Daugher got a job in her choosen profession, my Son got into the Forces and my other Son gained expererience in the workplace which got him a job. I left school with nothing!!! failed the 11 plus and was told to go into a factory. At 30 I was made redundant and went onto a TOPS (Training and Opportunites Scheme) on a Private Secretaries course and got 7 qualifications in a year and a Secretarial job when I left.

I can say that I have never met a bad teenager - just a lot of teenagers with bad parents!!!!!!

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 14:05

PeeCee

Add on all the benefits, handouts etc etc etc

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 14:05

RE msg 1, HildySmith: (...) Bring back national service and give them something to fight for!! - THEIR COUNTRY!!!! (...)

▶ Is the UK under attack? Or do you want a strong army to help the US invade/intervene illegally elsewhere?

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 14:08

The UK is under attack!!!1

Did you not see the pictures of the 'so called students' rioting and causing damage and injury on the British streets in the last few weeks.

As for your last comment - Tony Blair is no longer Prime Minister so we do not need:

' to help the US invade/intervene illegally elsewhere?'

and should never have done so in the first place.!!!!

waddo


Joined: 29/11/2008
Posts: 1966

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 15:01

And just how would you bring this about? What age group are you trying to identify here - 18 to 21 year olds? How many people are you talking about anyway? - According to national statistics there are an estimated 9506700 people in the UK between the ages of 18 and 30!!!!



So just where are you going to put, let us say 3 million people? Training is based on a 1 to 12 ratio of trainer to student so where are you going to get 250000 trainers? This is just for a start by the way.

Lets say we put 20 people into a single room to sleep - like we did in the old days - you would need 150000 rooms and that means 3 million beds as well by the way.



Just think about clothing and food and transport and heating as basics then ask yourself who is going to pay for it all - YOU ARE!!! So if you want to bring back National Service just go for it but be prepared to fund the guns and things that go with it all.

PeeCee


Joined: 16/03/2009
Posts: 133

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 20:01

Yep waddo - as I said, conscription is a very expensive solution to a problem that really doesn't exist. I've been in meetings with senior representatives from the forces where the old chestnut of bring back the national service is raised and, once they can get their breath, there is, to be kind, little enthusiasm.



Much better to encourage young people to stay in education or training to get the best range of qualifications that they can and pray that there will be jobs for them to go into. Those who want a career in the services and can get through the robust selection process then great. But it's not for everyone.

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 20:44

Here comes the short sharp shock treatment brigade. Billions are lost ordering expensive toys for the boys and all we can find to moan about is 30 pound a week given to people to stay in education. People complaining about this are the ones who do not value education.

As to the boys fighting in Afghanistan for their country, I beg to differ.

In my work I have come across soldiers who spent time in Iraq and Afghanistan and I have put to them the very same question. Why do they join the Army? and Why do they fight? is it for their country? or Queen? The answer I found surprised me.

They joined because they have nothing else to do and no other hope for a career.

They fight because where they are put, if they don't fight they will die, so they fight for each other. Not one said they fight for their country.

Is that spelling ok pugwash?

What is this obsession with spelling? av u bein t skool leytly?

I must worn you though that obsessive mind leads to madness eventually.

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 21:10

PeeCee

'a problem that really doesn't exist'

That says it all - are you blind?

Another 18yr old boy was stabbed to death on a South London Street last week. Students are rioting over their pocket money

Benifits are paid out to keep the masses quiet.

I left school at 15, worked hard from the day I left. Was a teenage Mum and worked thoughtout the years bringing my children up and have never claimed benefit. I did get a payment for the training course I did - but I had worked and paid taxes for 15 years prior to getting that and I worked continuously after that training other unemployed youngsters and getting them into jobs.

What happens to these youngsters now, they have youngsters and so it goes on!!!

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 21:11

and lets not forget all the millions paid to MOD staff as bonuses for doing their job (away from the front line)

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 21:41

if they bring back National Service again it will have to be for the girls as well, and if it's like here it'll also be for us old folks!

fosterscan


Joined: 27/02/2010
Posts: 541

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 21:51

if they did brng it back it would leave lots of jobs for the over 65s to do .

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 22:20

bring back national service ,you gotta get them into rehab first, get them off drugs.





musin



long live the kktc

paddywack


Joined: 04/05/2009
Posts: 959

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 22:44

Msg 28,

Anybody that has had experience of national service will know rehab would not be needed the company sargeant major is all that is needed.

dandd3


Joined: 10/06/2010
Posts: 326

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 23:18

i think they should bring back natinal service turns boys into men.....

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
04/02/2011 23:24

And war turns boys into cannon fodder.

Harold2555



Joined: 19/04/2008
Posts: 1139

Message Posted:
05/02/2011 00:27

Bring back National service because the kids are rioting in the streets?



So is it a good idea to train them to use guns and in the techniques of unarmed combat to make them really good at it?



While we're at it let's exempt those going to University so that we can encourage more of the feckless undeserving to waste three years and whinge about what it costs them later (assuming they ever get a job earning over £20,000 a year)



Harold

Blackbird



Joined: 11/08/2009
Posts: 1432

Message Posted:
05/02/2011 00:34

£20,000 a year. Where are those jobs?

Carndi


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 613

Message Posted:
05/02/2011 09:43

Anyone accused of a crime used to be given the choice of jail or the army and ' these yobs ' in most instances turned out ok BUT today the NCO's are not allowed to shout at the recruits and everyone has to be treated with kid gloves. To instill discipline would be much harder. When I joined in the 50's we had a measure of discipline to start with. The army poilished it.

After WW 2 Dennis Wheatly, the author, whote a paper on the future of the British forces. The question was, should we rely on the nuclear deterent or support a large standin army.

He believed that there should be a small but elite force which should be a career that only the best could join as well as the nuclear deterent. I think that today in our three services we are not far off that.

Given the equipment they are,man for man, the equal of any. The British forces do not need those who dont want to serve.

NCMan



Joined: 19/09/2009
Posts: 670

Message Posted:
05/02/2011 10:16

Why would the Government want to bring back National Service ?



it would mean all the Wan---s & dead beats joing our elite forces , some how i doubt it !!!!!

flowerfairy


Joined: 17/09/2008
Posts: 1277

Message Posted:
05/02/2011 10:53

Carndi, I agree, not only are the NCO's have to treat people with kid gloves, so do the teachers, Police, even

parents.

TRNCVaughan, mess.5. How can a teacher teach a student respect when the student tells the teacher to ''F'' off, and there's not much he/she can do about it.?

Teachers aren't allowed to give students detention without an appointment. Police have their hands tied with

rules regulations and don't forget the mound of paperwork.



Parents too have to be careful with big brother (do gooders) watching.



We were only discussing yesterday about the slaps we had from our parents, that did us no harm at all.

If we were grounded, we were grounded. Nowadays being sent to your room is a treat. Play computer games, watch what you want on telly.



I did watch an American boot camp programme a few years ago which ended up making yobo's into caring, employable youths, who were prepared to work in a team.

Clarissa2


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 1476

Message Posted:
05/02/2011 16:45

Re : Msg1,





Good Lord, Hildy! Have you been reading Stalin again?

PeeCee


Joined: 16/03/2009
Posts: 133

Message Posted:
05/02/2011 17:30

Good post Clarissa - made me smile.

waddo


Joined: 29/11/2008
Posts: 1966

Message Posted:
05/02/2011 18:25

HildySmith, I don't normally rise to the bait but - "and lets not forget all the millions paid to MOD staff as bonuses for doing their job (away from the front line)" - Having spent 25 years in the military then followed that with 17 years in the MOD as a civil servant I would really love you to explain the bonus system for the civil service and just who got these "Millions" and for what. I had servicemen working for me of the equivalent rank of Lance Cpl who were earning much more than I was (away from the front line) when I held the equivialent rank of Major and with all the responsibility as well (away from the front line), my very last bonus payment was £645.00 before tax which came out as £516.00 or if you like and extra £43.00 a month - Thanks MOD.



Don't believe all you read in the press its only the top that gets the big bucks, the normal workers don't get much at all.

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
06/02/2011 14:37

The adjutant of my old unit in the 1990s held the rank of Flight Lieutenant. I had reason to contact them the other day and the job today is being done by a Corporal - and pretty efficiently as well.

gusanova


Joined: 23/11/2010
Posts: 187

Message Posted:
06/02/2011 22:08

As an ex serviceman I agree with message 2. No way and what would you do with people who do not want to be there in the first place. The PC Brigade would have a fieldday so not worth it.

A few years ago a friend of mine who was a Cpl Instructor at Lichfield in the Paras, was fined a weeks wages for getting 2 yellow cards from his recruits for shouting at them about their negligence with weapons. Result he bought himself out- Army lost a very capable and able soldier.

These are the headlines you would hear all the time- its not worth it and our Servicemen deserve better.

In Iraq?Afghanistan the Americans deploy their National Guard and half of these cant even talk basic english never mind be relied upon in a contact.



Please lets stop thinking this is the solution- a deterent is needed for the layabouts but not National Service!!!

YeniTom


Joined: 29/12/2009
Posts: 198

Message Posted:
06/02/2011 22:50

Ex forces myself. Not sure.



Many of the past conflicts had National Servicemen in them - including Cyprus - but I would never liken any of our TA or past NS personnel with an uneducated, hardly literate being from the middle of Idaho

rocky


Joined: 17/10/2007
Posts: 1749

Message Posted:
06/02/2011 23:29

I think message 17 which states bad parenting really sums it up, even adults on here do not always appear to be adults. Not sure we should train our multi culteral youth to use more weapons anyway. We even have old clogsy message 17 commenting on British in illegal invasions at least the Brits did something in many conflicts. Apart from Ann Frank I am told (coz Im not old enough) that many of the clogsies rolled over I guess they needed the brits and the gis then. N E way what has this got to do with North cyprus, I see clogsy appears to be anti british yet no doubt he will take their money for his walks.

Woodspeckie


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 2263

Message Posted:
07/02/2011 00:03

rocky. Pot calling kettler re not appearing to be adult with some of your remarks. Didn't cost me anything to go on Hans walks.