Getting it Wrong - Martin Packard

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
05/02/2011 21:28

http://vimeo.com/4094108

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
05/02/2011 21:34

Have you read the book Tracer?

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
05/02/2011 21:37

twice No1

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
05/02/2011 21:42

http://vimeo.com/4092804

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
05/02/2011 21:43

There is an incident where the three of them came to Lurucina for a visit and the Turkish Komutan code named Demir of Lurucina went up to the Turkish Officer with Packard and spat at his face. That is definitely true.

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
05/02/2011 21:49

Yes Yfred he call him a traitor also.

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
06/02/2011 00:59

Good one 'Tracer', I'll order the book.



Richard

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
06/02/2011 19:51

Yfred that is a good fragment of the book.



1. The trigger for armed confrontation was an incident on the night December 21. Greek Cypriot suspicions that armed action was planned by TMT led to the searching of Turkish Cypriot cars in Nicosia, aimed at hampering the movement of weapons. TMT ordered that such searches should be resisted. The stopping of a car in the red light district led to an angry response from bystanders, police shots and two deaths.

General Carver's memoirs "Out of Step" note his belief that confrontation at Christmas 1963 was deliberately provoked by TMT to pre-empt an intention of Makarios to bring about an enforced amendment of the constitution in 1964. :

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
06/02/2011 20:14

Tracer the armed units for the Greek Cypriot side were ready and in place as early as 1961. The Akritas plan was created in 1960 just a few months after the birth of the RoC. Nobody comes out of this smelling roses.



"Our first objective was our endeavour to be vindicated as the Greek majority and to create the impression that:



(i) The solution given is neither satisfactory not fair; "



The above comment comes from the akritas plan. Makarios wanted to create the impression that the solution was not satisfactory.

Mubarak had the same idea. He sent in his thugs caused mayhem and then claimed that the country would sink into chaos if he leaves. I wonder if he has read the Akritas plan.

We have to wake up to the truth that Greek Cypriots wanted enosis and were risking the Turks invading to try and get it. Makarios did not change his mind about enosis, just how to get there.

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
06/02/2011 20:36

read the book my friend with open mind as i have done.



As explained to me, TMTs 'Doomsday Plan' involved the instigation of armed action throughout Cyprus, in the expectation that this would trigger massive Greek Cypriot retaliation, leading to military intervention from Turkey.



1. Pantelides and the two Greek officers from ELDYK were killed in Famagusta on 11 May having, probably inadvertently, entered the Turkish Cypriot held Old City. 32 Turkish Cypriots were subsequently abducted from the roads of Famagusta Zone and never seen again. The claim in General Carver's memoirs that the total of those abducted was twelve is inaccurate.

Pugwash


Joined: 06/09/2010
Posts: 1797

Message Posted:
06/02/2011 20:38

Of course how silly it is all the TC's fault and the TMT, regardless of possible individual acts that is not the case.

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
06/02/2011 20:58

Tracer Makarios went to Ankara to discuss the 13 points and Ankara told him they were aware of all the armed gangs they created in 61. What did you expect the TMT to do, sit down and play Tiddlywinks. Of course they were going to be prepared.

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
06/02/2011 22:06

pugwash i never said that is tCs fault we have a good share too but dont blame us for everything



Yfred the brits told Makarios to change the 13teen points(and then left him in the cold) and kutsuk was ready to discuss them .

light travels straight my friend remove everything in front of you to see it.



2. Polycarpos Georgadjis was Minister of the Interior in the first governmen independence: he thereby had control of the police, the gendarmeri Cypriot intelligence mechanisms. A former EOKA leader under General C with a record of arrest and imprisonment by the British army, he had strong following among the EOKA rank and file. With advice from Greek and intelligence officers, Georgadjis was primary author of the Akritas supposed to be a blueprint for the achievement of enosis

he was a F............ B.............d

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
06/02/2011 22:14

i cannot scan the whole book for you my friend just read this fragment.



On 16 January, the Turkish Cypriots at Mora claimed that their stocks of food were exhausted and that they were too frightened to travel and thus unable to obtain new supplies, even had they the money to do so. We knew this was less than the truth, having just come from Aphania where we had chanced on a Turkish Cypriot from Mora engaged in making bulk purchases from the Greek Cypriot shops, but it was evident that some families were dangerously destitute. I referred to the position in my report that night:

"It appears that strong political pressure is now being applied by (their own) extremists to the Turh in the villages within the Mora-Ayia area. A considerable problem thus arises as to the recommending of food supplies.

The Turks in these fortress-villages' are able to go out and purchase supplies (even at some occasional risk), and are in fact quietly doing so, but are telling both us and their fellow vill

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
06/02/2011 22:16

cont.

but are telling both us and their fellow villagers that it is too dangerous to do so. On the other hand it is obvious that some of the villagers are now approaching starvation-point and that they need and expect supplies to be sent by us. What supplies we do send are likely mostly to go into the stockpile. If some ofthe villagers starve it may be within theframework ofa situation politically engineered by TMT. Guidance is now necessary as to whether supplies should be recommended when it is suspected that the 'shortages' are of this nature."

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
06/02/2011 22:24

After a protracted meeting with us on the 16th the evacuees resolved tc return to Palekythro under the patrol's sponsorship, but they were then harangued by some Mora extremists who claimed that a move back would be damaging to the Turkish Cypriot assertion of the need for separation and whc threatened to restrain them by force. A TMT representative seconded this advice and told them that in any case they could soon reclaim their homes since Palekythro "...was to be in the Turkish sector when Cyprus was partitioned..." In the end only one tough and elderly shepherdess refused to be dissuaded, claiming that supplies of fodder in Mora were inadequate and that since arriving some of her possessions had been stolen. She returned with her sheep to Palekythro, where she was warmly welcomed by the Greek Cypriots.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
06/02/2011 22:57

Tracer,



Thanks for posting this,

Paul.

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
07/02/2011 16:18

Only a twisted person can say that:

Two days after my query was passed to him I received from Georgadjis a confidential response. He said that he deeply regretted having to tell me that twenty-one Turkish Cypriot patients at the hospital had been killed in their beds by a member of the hospital staff, loyal to Nicos Sampson, who had run amok. The bodies, he went on to say, had been removed by night in two trucks and delivered to the area of SkyUoura/Ayios Vasilios where they had been dismembered, incinerated, ground up in farm dicing machines and then seeded into arable farmland.

I had no reason at the time to doubt the validity of the report, since it had come from the best informed of Cypriot ministers.

cont;

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
07/02/2011 16:20

cont;

It was thirty-six years before it was suggested to me that the story had in fact been an elaborate piece of disinformation. First I was told that UN investigations had determined that only three Turkish Cypriots, suspected TMT members, had been killed in the General Hospital (and in the matron's quarters rather than in their beds). Then I learned from the 1963 director of International Red Cross operations in Cyprus, Shelagh Folke, that after the Christmas fighting, she herself had collected twenty-one Turkish Cypriot bodies from the streets of Omorphita, using RAF ambulances, and deposited them in the morgue of the General Hospital. She had been told that the bodies, together with those from the matron's flat, had later been removed to Ayios Vasilios so that the morgue could be cleared.

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
07/02/2011 17:56

quote:

I received numerous reports of involvement by Greek Cypriot policemen in hostage-taking and summary killings. No suggestion that this was happening was given by any Greek source either to the Greek Cypriot public or to their moderate leaders. I was once shown a digest of police reports delivered to Makarios, covering events of which I had personal knowledge, in which every incident had been either whitewashed or reversed so as to show the Turkish Cypriots as the instigators of violence. Similarly, Kutchuk showed me reports he had received from Turkish Cypriot villages for which I had responsibility that gave a wholly exaggerated or distorted picture of events, suggesting a massive persecution by the Greek Cypriots that had never in fact occurred.

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
07/02/2011 18:11

quote:

One British serviceman, LAC Marley, was arrested by the Greek Cypriot police while acting for TMT in the delivery of weapons which had been landed clandestinely from Turkey on the Tillyria coast. Handed over to the British authorities, he was court-martialled in the UK and given a long prison sentence but then quickly released. Archive material shows that other UK personnel were identified by the British authorities as involved in similar activities: they were quickly removed from Cyprus and the matter hushed up. Some light was shed on these activities when a BBC Radio 4 programme on 27 January 2006 revealed that in 1963 and 1964 TMT had been provided by elements of the British military and intelligence services with direct and significant support, in the form of weapons, training and tactical advice.

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
07/02/2011 18:12

2. Geunyeli Incident. In a notorious incident, on 12 June 1958 at the height of inter-communal friction ahead of the Macmillan Plan and following a TMT escalation of sectarian violence, British troops punished 35 unarmed Greek Cypriot civilians by obliging them to walk home cross-country past the Turkish Cypriot village of Geunyeli. There they were set upon by Turkish Cypriots; eight of them were murdered and five seriously injured

Pugwash


Joined: 06/09/2010
Posts: 1797

Message Posted:
07/02/2011 18:36

You are using individual accounts of what you can find to justify yourself, it is the old GC trick, keep playing it , you are still losing by not admitting the truth and then moving on.

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
07/02/2011 19:06

Pugwash, how can we decide where we are going if we don't know where we have come from?



Some of us lived it too.

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
07/02/2011 20:16

msg 23 Im using nothing pug the quotes are from an eye witness



even your fellow Denktash said :

No foreigner knows better than you the reality of events in Cyprus 1964 (rauf denktash to author 1999.)



and start to realize that not you or us was innocent doves ........you are just misinformed

So read the book and everything will fall in place even for you.



Yfred you know how i feel so this is a blow below the belt . pls email me.

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
07/02/2011 21:14

tracer

There were a lot of people that were misinformed in the past but more to the point it is the mis-information that has been carried through to the present day.

Tell me what you know about the 'Movement For Freedom & Justice In Cyprus' and in particular a document that is entitled 'The Proposal Of The Correct Yes' Printed in the ROC in September 2009 and was widely distributed amongst influentail GC people.

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
07/02/2011 21:18

On 12 February I was asked at short notice by General Young to introduce a visiting American official to the mediating effort in Nicosia Zone. I was not told what his status was and when he was introduced to me as George Ball the name meant nothing to me. I took him on a lengthy helicopter tour of the north-east, showed him that the anarchy of Christmas had been almost wholly eliminated, demonstrated the general progress that had been made towards communal re-engagement and the way that joint village councils were operating effectively, explained how radically the performance of the gendarmerie had been improved.I was able to show him widespread evidence of the fact that a unitary state could be made eminently workable. I described the steps that still needed to be taken. I talked at length about the advantages of a tripartite mediating approach and the opportunity this gave for sources of violence to be identified and isolated, giving realistic hope that a much stronger

cont;

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
07/02/2011 21:19

cont;

multi-ethnic society could be created within a bi-communal Cyprus, with genuine security for the Turkish Cypriots. I said that limited movements of population by mutual agreement had been beneficial in areas of particular tension and that in most areas a reintegration of the two rural communities would present no problems once a general political accommodation was reached. I suggested that an extension of the tripartite mediating process was needed, rather than an enlargement of the military peacekeeping effort, and that the lessons we had learned needed to be applied at the upper levels of inter-communal dialogue and co-operation.

When we returned to Nicosia Mr Ball complimented me on what had been achieved. He then said, sympathetically:

"But you've got it all wrong, son. Hasn't anyone told you that our target here is for partition?"

Pugwash


Joined: 06/09/2010
Posts: 1797

Message Posted:
07/02/2011 21:44

hmm hello Private Pike

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
07/02/2011 21:54

msg 26 quote :There were a lot of people that were misinformed in the past but more to the point it is the mis-information that has been carried through to the present day.



this is old news AJ .

Even the leaders in both community's were misinformed except Giorkatjis and Denktash. the masters of all.

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
07/02/2011 22:00

still dreaming of ghosts Pugwash please wake up before erdogan comes and starts pre-wash for starters.

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
07/02/2011 22:32

msg26 here it is Aj personaly this is the fist time i lay my eyes on it.

http://alturl.com/425y8

Rottolover



Joined: 21/06/2009
Posts: 519

Message Posted:
07/02/2011 23:14

My god, tracer, what a document!



I'd be interested to read what you 'personaly' think about it...

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
07/02/2011 23:29

So it's all the Turks' fault... big change of heart there then.. :(



The 'document' is as scandalous as it is laughable.

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
08/02/2011 07:32

tracer

You have had an evening to digest the aforementioned document.

Comments?

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
08/02/2011 07:51

Ermmmmmmmmmmm........ my opinion is that when you notice a priest involved just run the other way .

yes this is a correct Yes for a Greek Cyprus but i Dont want any Greece or Turkey telling me what to do in my country

i will say a very big Yes when it will be For Cyprus and the CYPRIOTS FROM PAPHOS TO KARPAZ.



So this "document" smells "ELAM" (RIGHT RIGHT WINGS) NOTHING TO DO WITH ME.

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
08/02/2011 07:56

As for AP here you can see is was about quote: The UN's so-called Annan Plan, for resolution of the Cyprus problem, evolved through five different texts. Up to Annan III the proposal was subject to negotiations with the Cypriots: it was generally acceptable to the Greek Cypriote but rejected by Denktash and his army supporters in Turkey. "Πκ final proposal, Annan V, radically changed to satisfy the wishes of the Turkish army, was not made subject to Greek Cypriot or Turkish Cypriot negotiation. Its apparent objective was to secure a deal, of any sort, in advance of Cypriot accession to the EU, in such formula as would help to decriminalise Turkeys position in Cyprus and ease Turkey's path to EU accession.

Clare Palley was a legal advisor to the UN process. It has been written that no one reading her exhaustive documentation of events and statements relating to Annan V could fail to be convinced 'that the rush to force a settlement on the Greek and Turkish Cypriots in 2004

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
08/02/2011 07:58

cont

was motivated and executed with deceit, stupidity and flagrant disregard for the sovereignty and freedom of peoples."

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
08/02/2011 16:34

where are you AJ lost behind a.........

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
08/02/2011 18:15

Tpapa off the hook ? quote:

I could speak with some authority, because I was becoming increasingly aware of the problems faced by moderate leaders in each community. To help with the mediating process, Tassos Papadopoulos had earlier given me a complete structural explanation of 'The Organization' and an outline of the Akritas Plan. He had been explicit about the difficulty of stamping out anarchic violence when that was being represented by the press and extremist politicians as part of a heroic struggle for the realization of people's dreams of union with Greece. He thought it disastrous that the Greek Cypriots had been drawn into inter-communal conflict at Christmas, instead of letting events gradually evolve. He believed they had been provoked, by some of their own people as well as by foreigners and by TMT, into unleashing a tiger and that now they had no option but to try and ride it.

Rottolover



Joined: 21/06/2009
Posts: 519

Message Posted:
08/02/2011 18:29

Wow, a "heroic struggle"! I guess all those people dreaming of union with Greece didn't include too many TCs.....

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
08/02/2011 18:39

you referring to msg ? rotty

an answer for you is in msg 36 for yesterdays question .

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
16/02/2011 17:15

Yfred what you have said is truth here is the quote from the book :



"The army officer in command of the raiding force insisted on speaking English to me rather than in Turkish to major Sepici .As we left and in front of his men,he spat in majors Sepicis face and called him a traitor."

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
16/02/2011 17:54

Tracer,



So this is a TC local paramilitary spitting in the face of a "karasakal" officer come over from Turkey to tell them what to do?



Looks like the are parallels between TC feelings towards Big Brother in the 1960s and the demos we are seeing nowadays in Nicosia!

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
16/02/2011 18:35

Find the book and read it Zoots it will clear you mind what you wrote its just an assumption .

"the karasakal" was a member of a peace party trying to convince tcs not to abandon their houses.

In those days luroucina was the core of TMT forcing people to do the opposite .



its all in the book . read msg 14teen -15teen

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
16/02/2011 18:55

Good call, tracer.