Can't believe no one's talking about Egypt

cyprusjoker


Joined: 29/08/2009
Posts: 1107

Message Posted:
12/02/2011 16:44

Don't let The Bullys get to you.

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
12/02/2011 16:47

What is there to talk about?

Their problems are just about to begin.

cyprusjoker


Joined: 29/08/2009
Posts: 1107

Message Posted:
12/02/2011 16:57

Well the protestors don't seem to think that

Scoty


Joined: 23/05/2010
Posts: 846

Message Posted:
12/02/2011 16:59

I'm with AJ on this one - frying pan to fire springs to mind.

Jeannie


Joined: 04/08/2009
Posts: 3283

Message Posted:
12/02/2011 17:00

Perhaps a case of "Beware of what you wish for.................................."?

kavenkoy


Joined: 10/04/2008
Posts: 1787

Message Posted:
12/02/2011 17:10

may be everybodys fed up looking at the news and seeing egypt?



i agree ,some time better the devil you know

kav

shrimp


Joined: 01/09/2010
Posts: 939

Message Posted:
12/02/2011 17:22

Cant believe, that my good friend has just flown yesterday to Shamel Shake (spelling?) on a diving holiday...........I am not envious on two accounts.................!!!

Quarmby


Joined: 15/09/2008
Posts: 975

Message Posted:
12/02/2011 17:27

Msg 6



youv'e had experience of living under Mubaraks regime?

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
12/02/2011 17:35

From what I can make out there seems to be a confrontation breaking out between the older and younger army generals. The old guard received their training from the Soviets and the younger ones from Britain and America. The younger seem to advocate power to the people and the older still prefer autocratic rule.



It seems though that the army has been less concerned about politics and more concerned about making money. It seems to own most of Egypt having its fingers in many business operations.

Army pay is two thirds as much as a civil servant, so I guess they will not be too willing to relinquish their stranglehold.



It is amazing to hear the people shout for democracy and freedom, but they seem surprised and subsequently unprepared now that Mubarak has gone. There are no obvious candidates coming forward to run for possible elections.



Anyway, it seems clear that the west is going to keep out of it. It's up to the Egyptians to sort it out.

Scoty


Joined: 23/05/2010
Posts: 846

Message Posted:
12/02/2011 17:39

And the other middle east countries will then try and impose themselves - could be big trouble ahead. As msg 9 - they scream / shout / demonstrate to remove a leader - then what. Chaos probably

Hippo


Joined: 02/02/2007
Posts: 2070

Message Posted:
12/02/2011 17:41

'It's up to the Egyptians to sort it out. '



And the West to pick up the pieces.



The Israeli's must be very twitchy,

The big question who is going to fill the void, the danger is they have changed the leader but they cant change the attitudes .

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
12/02/2011 18:05

Message 9

Spot on and that is only the beginning.



Message 8

Have you?

Quarmby


Joined: 15/09/2008
Posts: 975

Message Posted:
12/02/2011 18:20

Not usually the norm to answer a question with a question.

demoly


Joined: 12/01/2011
Posts: 45

Message Posted:
12/02/2011 18:24

when egyptian troops start escorting aid convoys into gaza what will the jews reaction be then ?

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
12/02/2011 18:37

They have asked for the west not to but in, now what about their economy x

kavenkoy


Joined: 10/04/2008
Posts: 1787

Message Posted:
13/02/2011 08:09

message 8



do i need to have had ?



all we have had for 3 weeks is egypt and egypt and egypt ....progamme watched have suggested he brings stabillity to a country that is nothing more than 3rd world .



in 2 years time we will look back wont we and see this uprising for the good ?who cares its got nothing to do with uk ,or cyprus



kav

cyprusjoker


Joined: 29/08/2009
Posts: 1107

Message Posted:
13/02/2011 09:32

Kavenkoy, try going back to bed and getting out the right side, now put the kettle on and calm down..

kavenkoy


Joined: 10/04/2008
Posts: 1787

Message Posted:
13/02/2011 10:14

17 why ?



im allways happy chappy thanks



i was just replying to a previous message ....a message that you were not asking a question



thanks for your concern though lol



kav

AndyR



Joined: 23/04/2009
Posts: 317

Message Posted:
13/02/2011 11:15

The real problem isn't what happens in Egypt, it's what the new regimes attitude towards Israel will be. For all his faults (and he had many) Mubarak was central to keeping the piece in the middle east.

AndyR



Joined: 23/04/2009
Posts: 317

Message Posted:
13/02/2011 11:17

That should, of course, be 'keeping the peace'!

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
13/02/2011 11:38

The real politics of Egypt has not changed. Mubarak was the poodle of Israel and USA. Will that change with this changeover. I suspect not. But so long as there is nobody being tortured and they have elections that is free and all compassing, it is an improvement.

This idea that the Generals are also the Captons of Industry and don't have to pay any tax, is something I was not aware of. It can't be doing any good to the finances of the country that they don't have to pay tax. No wonder they are so dependent on USA and Saudis.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
13/02/2011 12:28

Mubarak has kept the peace between nations but he has failed internally within his own country. Saying that, all human beings, no matter what ethnicity will want a change of some sort at some point. We eventually get tired of the same old. Where we differ is our tolerance level, or threshold point. Nothing lasts forever, even the good stuff and everything tumbles.Its an indelible Law of nature.



The Egyptian army only survives in its present format because of US money. If the money is stopped then the army, even with its economic interests may struggle. The aid will stop if Egypt attacks Israel and that will put an end to the armies little party.

If it is accepted by the Egyptian people, then that aid should go towards the democratisation process, but then you risk upsetting the army.



One thing which is very significant is that Al queada has always stated that the only way to get rid of Middle East autocrats is through embracing radical Islam. They have now been proven wrong

jimchris09


Joined: 13/02/2009
Posts: 547

Message Posted:
13/02/2011 12:34

Give it time....a lot has happened in 3 weeks and a lot can happen in the next few months. The sleeping giant of Islamic radicalism/extremism has not yet awakened methinks

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
13/02/2011 12:38

The unfortunate fact is that the only thing that can remove the cancer of USA influence from these lands is either an Iranian or a Taliban type revolution, which is a shame. But what it shows is how the USA is abusing the rest of the world. When she stops doing that, then we will all be better off.

American interest should only be within her own borders not in the rest of the world.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
13/02/2011 12:49

msge 23



You are right it is very early days indeed....nobody has any idea really what is going to happen in Egypt.



Islam is also a political movement, not just religious. The war between western democracy and political islam may only have just started. We also don't know if democracy is simply a western ideology which is the belief of the Chinese government or if democracy is a progression point in human development. I believe the later.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
13/02/2011 12:51

msge 25



ps by war I don't necessary mean a call to arms (which is what happened between soviet communism and US capatalism - the proxy war) but a war of ideas.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
13/02/2011 13:29

The place is bound to erupt into regional/differing religious factions' anarchy. It's only an autocrat/dictator who can prevent it. It's been suggested that [allegedly] the CIA put in 'agent provocateurs' to stir this all up!



'Divide and rule!' is the 'name of the game'; and, again and unwittingly, the Egyptians have played into the hands of the West [read USA].



It's almost a foregone conclusion that the situation in Egypt will erupt into factional violence; the Yanks and Israel must be rubbing their hands in glee!

AndyR



Joined: 23/04/2009
Posts: 317

Message Posted:
13/02/2011 13:37

I'm not sure why the Israeli's would be rubbing their hands in glee?

If the current regime is ultimately replaced by something more radical, then the Israeli's are more likely to be getting ready for another conflict, and that has what could be awful consequences for all of us, not just the Middle East.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
13/02/2011 13:47

msge 27



As soon as the guy with the camel rode in to the square everybody said it was Mubarak stirring it up, no doubt sponsored by the US. When the guy was tracked down, he said he rode in to the square, because the crowd had scared off the tourists so he could no longer make any money. Tourists used to take pictures alongside his camel. He could no longer feed his family. No conspiracy theory, the guy just wanted to eat.



Too many people think that big events are planned and structured. They are not, most things arise spontaneously, they emerge. As such they are impossible to predict. Cause and effect are becoming impossible to link. Its hard to manipulate the masses.



What was amazing was how the Egyptian people have cleared up their square. This was very civilised behaviour. This is a big society.

Look at the student riots in London. How many of the protesters came back to clean up their mess?

jimchris09


Joined: 13/02/2009
Posts: 547

Message Posted:
13/02/2011 22:10

Message 28



I think the Israelis, as they always have - think of the birth of their state - thrive on conflict around them. They took the lot on in 67 and 73 and would not hesitate to do so again! they are not bothered about international reaction...they always weather the storm and survive!

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
13/02/2011 22:21

jimchris09, have things not changed since the 70s. Was it not Israel that attacked Hezbollah in Lebanon and couldn't wait to get out again the same month. In the 80s when they went in, they did not leave for 10 years and to add insult to injury, they lost less men in 10 years than they did in 1 month recently.

I seem to remember a report by the Israeli government complaining to the Russian government for supply Syria which in turn supplied Hezbollah. With the new Egyptian Army with a thousand tanks, if they fall in the hands of an Iranianan style government is the Israeli nightmare. They did look rather worried when Mubarak would not resign and it looked like US would lose control of the situation, but do not worry, they are still in control, at the moment.

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
13/02/2011 23:15

message 30

'I think the Israelis, as they always have - think of the birth of their state - thrive on conflict around them'



Rubbish, Most Israelis dont thrive in conflict and certainly no country does, they want peace as do probably most Egyptians. Bet youre not an Israeli! having lived under threat ,or Palestinian ,Lebanese,



Why not wait a while ,at least till the elections before talking about Israel taking on the 'lot' again,

I for one thought it was brilliant what happened . Agree with Quarmby. Try living in a dictatorship like Egypts, where I believe common methods of punishment meted out to detainees was torture and rape,before you ask those young protesters to accept leaders that suit us rather than them.



Imagine what a young Egyptian might think about us telling him he shouldnt have protested but accept living under a bad regime for our, Israel, US's or anyone elses benifit. What arrogance!

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
14/02/2011 11:23

it never ceases to amaze me why israel of secret is always mentioned

in the same breath as the egyptian democracy campaign



yes, obviously, that country may have to defend itself

assuming any new regime in cairo scraps the present peace agreement

well at least egypt signed one, a painful compromise of course, as always,

a straightforward process sadly well beyond the horizens of the nicosia side



as regards america, also usually tagged onto the end of any discussion about egypt,

the acid test would be whether uncle sam will dare withold their billion quid aid fund

if the generals break their promise to usher in democracy, (if they did promise that)

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
14/02/2011 11:39

Andre, Only the head changed the body is still in place in Egypt. There is only one way a country can remove the US influence and it is either an Iranian or Taliban type revolution. There is no other way, unfortunately. So do not worry, the revolution is only in name, let us hope that this new government does to kill or torture as many as the last one and does not last for 30 years.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
14/02/2011 11:40

The one dimensional view that many people have of the US also prevents them from realising that these middle east protests are being co-ordinated through technology which is publicly available. This technology was made and created by US ingenuity and creativity. This is not just any type of technology, it is technology which enables greater openess and greater transparency. Only a country who holds 'freedom' as a value could develop such technology and make it widely available.



Lets not forget that Iran has used this technology to track down the protesters in it's own country. No doubt they have been tortured. Yet some pro Iranian people on this forum choose to ignore this. In their view only the US is capable of great evil.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
14/02/2011 11:42

correction:



please delete "of secret" line one...



this was a frivolous reference to secret submarine bases in the karpaz peninsular



(if indeed there are such things)

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
14/02/2011 11:50

i love cyprus,



yes despite obvious parallels with the late 1980's protests in eastern europe,

the new technology places us all in unknown territory



many other countries with "managed democracy" may be affected as egypt was

on the other hand as some have pointed out on this thread

egypt my have experienced a "virtual revolution" only

...with its mirror image of an "apparent change"



but as chairman mao famously replied when asked about the 1789 french revolution

"it's too early to tell"

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
14/02/2011 11:53

ilovecyprus,

Not one dimensional at all. There is a reaction to every action. I have never supported what the towel heads have done and are doing in Iran and beyond, but it is the only way to keep the other towel heads from US from running their country.

Unfortunately till the second lot stop doing what they do, the first lot have no other choice. It is time people woke up to what US is really all about and stop blaming the the victims of their foreign policy.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
14/02/2011 11:54

msge 37



Absolutely andre, it is far too early to know

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
14/02/2011 12:14

msge 38 yfred



I agree that US foreign policy has to get better and I believe it has under the Obama administration. You cannot compare the game theory policies of Nixon (nor Bush) to that of Obama . In an ideal world the west wont have to rely on middle east oil. Lets pray for the day that we find an alternative.



The economic theory and policy has to change,, but at the same time Arabs cant keep seeing themselves as victims. America through it's open policy has allowed China through the door. This has left the US vulnerable (although internal greed and a crazy housing policy also left them vulnerable) but it values freedom over protectionism. You don't see the Chinese (and many other Asian nations) whining and moaning like some in the middle east. They just get on with it.

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
14/02/2011 12:44

Reading through some of the (so typical) comments, I humbly suggest not to use a collective name 'the Israelis'.

Sorry guys if it sounds against the convenient simplistic approach but looking into the microcosm that is called Israel one can find a wide variety of views on any issue including the discussed one. That is the power of her democracy driven by ultra free press, unprecedented independence of the judiciary and many other (unfortunately uncommon in the ME) rights.



As for the thread title...well, we will need to be patient. Democracy is so much more than voting and it is only worth the matter if a society adopts some core values. These values are more important than the process by which people vote for its own government.

Democracy This set consists of the core values

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
14/02/2011 13:04

msge 41



There are three important points that you raise. One is that every country has a mixture of views and values. Views come from values. A country's gravity (gravity in this sense is core values) is often where it's lowest values are. By lowest, I mean values which are not life enhancing for a group.



The second point is about democracy. Values emerge spontaneously and evolve along a continuum. It has been said that the West has underestimated the potential of the Egyptian people. This is certainly true, but you could also say that many life enhancing values are only just starting to awaken (in the majority) hence the US made a judgement to back Mubarak to keep the peace. Of course, the US would have preferred Egypt to be a democracy because the US values Freedom over autocracy.



Thirdly, you are right democracy is much more than voting it's about core values. Values are reflected in political mechanisms and governance.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
14/02/2011 13:10

msge 42



....in forms of governance.



If there are sufficient higher values in the populas then Egypt can make democracy happen and develop the necessary forms of governance.

jimchris09


Joined: 13/02/2009
Posts: 547

Message Posted:
14/02/2011 16:18

Message 31...1000 tanks won't scare Israel...didn't Egypt have superior numbers before....and most ended up burning on the sands.



Perhaps "thrive" was the wrong word...what I'm trying to get across is that Israel seems able to cope with any offensive from outside its borders no matter what form it takes.

phylray



Joined: 21/09/2007
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
14/02/2011 21:42

Mabruk! Egyptians. Well done, and peacefully. Even cleaning up after themselves (would that our

demonstrators did but then they do no know what it is to live under a dictator)

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
14/02/2011 22:31

Israelis have one law for the Jews and another for everybody else. Murder and stealing Palestinian land and water is legalised. Democracy my arse, when they close the vital road for 8 hours and thousands are kept waiting while one Israeli Jew goes shopping and has to return before it can be opened.

As to the Strength of Israel as I said before, the times they are changing. Israelis could not defeat bunch of Hezbollah never mind a full army with proper weapons. I wish all those tanks were given to the Hamas to see how well they would do against Israel.

As to the changes in Obama Foreign Policy, is only cosmetic, nothing more. He just seem to be caring. He fooled a lot of people but not for long.