Belgium sets a new world record

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
18/02/2011 15:38

Belgium has now gone the longest period, of any country, to be without a formal government since the second world war.



Any parallels with Cyprus?



Are Nationalistic differences compounded by linguistic differences or does language fuel more nationalistic tendencies? Are bi/multi linguists on both sides more likely to advocate peace? I would have expected so, but my elderly TC neighbour speaks Turkish, Greek and English but shows very little desire to reunite the country.



Belgium's are not only split linguistically, they are also split politically and seem divided geographically. There may even be a financial divide, as I think the North is wealthier than the south (please feel free to correct me if I am wrong). Flemish speakers in the North favour a more right wing party and French speakers in the south favour a more left wing party.



It is to be noted that Belgium has remained peaceful during this period of uncertainty. Quite civilised indeed.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
18/02/2011 18:43

RE msg 1, ilovecyprus: (...) please feel free to correct me if I am wrong. (...)

▶ No correction needed. But the language "problem" in Belgium is even more complicated than the differences between the Walloon (French) and Flemish (almost Dutch) language! In the eastern part German is the common language!

I hope for the people of Cyprus to be in the EU one day - roughly following the Belgian model. Two autonomous 'states' (or whatever name may be chosen) with a local government for local affairs and a Cyprus 'overall' government (foreign affairs & defense).

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
18/02/2011 19:54

msge 3



Thanks Hans. I had clean forgotten there was a German speaking part.

I see that the % who speak German is similar to those who speak the lesser know Rumantsch langauge in Switzerland. Multiple languages don't seem to be a problem in Switzerland.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
18/02/2011 19:55

meant msge 2 - I am always getting this wrong



Thanks Hans. I had clean forgotten there was a German speaking part.



I see that the % who speak German is similar to those who speak the lesser know Rumantsch langauge in Switzerland. Multiple languages don't seem to be a problem in Switzerland.

newscoop


Joined: 23/12/2007
Posts: 2197

Message Posted:
18/02/2011 20:18

So if I've got this right the governance of an artificially created country which forced unwilling bedfellows together is a success.



Even though said governance is a joke on a par with Italian election results.



Still, good result for Ajax vs Anderlecht.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
18/02/2011 20:22

From my experience in Belgium: ask for the way and they don't understand you if you speak the 'wrong' language - show an Euro and there's no language problem... Lovely country, really!

greylag


Joined: 08/04/2009
Posts: 1110

Message Posted:
18/02/2011 20:35

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19fcN3VaXs4



Evening all,

Grey.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
18/02/2011 21:31

msge 7



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iXvhcw07do&feature=related

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
18/02/2011 22:17

msge 5



Politically it is far from a success. (although one of their own managed to become the head of half a billion people and is never seen or heard of. Perhaps I am watching the wrong TV programmes or reading the wrong papers )



Economically it has been a great success. In 2009 it was ranked 12th in the world for GDP per head of population. This puts them ahead of France and Britain. (not sure of current figures)



From what I can make out the majority want the country to remain as one, but there are strong calls from parties on both sides to split. With the home of the EU being in Brussels you can bet your life there are some powerful forces willing them to stay intact.



How do you compare Belgium with Cyprus? Commonalities/differences?

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
19/02/2011 01:44

belgium was set up in 1830 by the european powers as a buffer state

the name relates to a local tribe in roman times



although I don't particularly like the monstrous eu and its beauracracy

there is no doubt the dutch speaking north and the walloon south

could be floated off as separate states without huge economic turmoil

since they might still function within the eu customs/monetary union



the situation is very different in cyprus

large numbers on each side claim to have been disposessed

and the cultural and religious divide is vast

there is a long history of domination, first by colonial powers,

then by the greek cypriots and now partly by the regional power



if belgium were ever to split it would function as separate partners

but cyprus could only ever be united if agreement could found

based upon the precise degree of autonomy for the north

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
19/02/2011 11:49

As ever very informative Andre.

As you say there is a vast religious divide in Cyprus which may make it more akin to Northern Island. There is the land issue which may mean there are some similarities with the west bank and there are different path dependencies. Cyprus's path has been one of dominance and interference, so it hasn't an established history of autonomy and self determination across the island as a whole, whereas Belgium, although it was hacked together does have a history of autonomy and self governance and has been able to develop some semblance of a shared identity which can be seen in their national football team etc.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
19/02/2011 12:07

hmmmm...



a problem in applying common sense or even basic logic to the "cyprob"

us there is no agreement on what it is or even if such a thing actually exists

...in medical terms we have a disputed diagnosis



then there is the question of kill or cure:

most illnesses could be cured by treatment involving the death of the patient



finally on the question of applying any reform to the island's administration

I am reminded of the uk nhs reforms which may make the system even worse

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
19/02/2011 12:11

I do not go much to south Cyprus but when I do I feel as if I am in a foreign country. I see no genuine wish on either side for a common government. The Greek side wish to see a united Cyprus but totally in charge. Hence no real prospects for a mutually agreed united Cyprus. Both sides use the talks only for scoring points rather than achieving a solution. The sooner they accept and admit this, the better.

ismet

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
19/02/2011 12:36

msge 13



It is always very useful to get your take and feelings ismet.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
19/02/2011 14:46

ismet,



however many times statements of the obvious are repeated it doesn't get through

...why?



because I think for two reasons:



firstly many people unaffected by events 1963-1974 are overly idealistic and unrealistic



or even, secondly, to repetetively talk up a "solution" of whatever species,

may be meant as a deterrent to those with a will to invest in the future of north cyprus

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
19/02/2011 15:36

msge 15



"or even, secondly, to repetetively talk up a "solution" of whatever species,



may be meant as a deterrent to those with a will to invest in the future of north cyprus"



That's a very interesting angle Andre. I have never given this any thought, but I can see where you are coming from. I can make sense if I think in terms of 'cutting of ones nose to spite ones face'.



I think there is a wider goal which prevents realism. The bigger picture is that Western bodies expect their people to be integrated and connected. Diversity rules. The peoples within Cyprus are expected to follow this wider principle. I think a growing number of people are questioning this goal of hyper diversity. A little bit of diversity is enriching and a great thing, but when you get hyper diversity, hyper connectivity, hyper interdependence without adaptation you can an end up with a mess. The Euro itself is an example of this.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
19/02/2011 15:37

correction - I can make sense of it if I think in ....

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
19/02/2011 19:40

message 16



"expects"? I very much doubt that at least as far as having body bags come back



that is why my prognosis is "no change"

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
20/02/2011 14:15

msge 18



"forcing" would certainly end with body bags. "Expectation" may be too strong a word and you are right to challenge it, as it does not apply to all people within all bodies. I am loathe to use the word "hope" because I suspect it is an ideology. Perhaps a word between "hope" and "expect".



My hypothesis (because that is all it is) could be completely wrong or even complete nonsense , but I will hold it and test it a little while longer. It may play a small part in explaining why nobody has called a halt to the talks. If it was a boxing match, it would have been stopped a while ago, but nobody seems to want to stop it and both sides get pulled in to blaming the other so as not to appear as the one who makes the talks fail.