Turkey - UN resolution is binding on all countries !

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
18/03/2011 13:10

1029: Turkey, which is a member of Nato, says it opposes foreign intervention in what it calls its "friend and brother Libya". Adds that UN resolution is binding on all countries.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12776418#video





Do you think that comment might get picked up the Republic of Cyprus as somewhat 'ironic' ?!



Interested to know why Turkey would appear to condone the current regime's policy..

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
18/03/2011 14:04

Maybe something to do with this



Turkish projects in Libya are valued at $15.3 billion, and the trade between the countries amounted to an estimated $2.4 billion in 2010. According to Ankara's export planners, Turkey's arms trade in the Middle East and North Africa has not been affected by the turmoil. Defence exports are expected to total $1.5 billion this year.



http://www.setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/features/setimes/features/2011/03/11/feature-02

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
18/03/2011 14:36

Politics, dear boy, politics.

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
18/03/2011 15:28

mmmmmmm msg1.

What I think IS ironic, is the GC's creating the trouble they have on the island and then expecting the world to feel sorry for their plight in the property claim, I think unbelievable is a more suited word there.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
18/03/2011 16:10

Tattlad...



re msg 4



Don't ( try to ) deflect, dear chap.. The 'world' asked for all non Cyprus forces ( That's Greek and Turkish) to leave the island ... Yes ?



Now we have one of those nations asking all nations to abide by UN decisions ...Yes?



Quod Erat Demonstrandum

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
18/03/2011 16:33

mmmmm Msg 5.

It's you who tries to deflect the blame, are you so stupid that you can't realize that there would be no Turkish troops on the island if it wasn't for the GC's madness, and don't go harping on about not all GC's wanted this or that because quite clearly the MAJORITY did, and the MAJORITY in any circumstance is still the MAJORITY, the more I hear from you the of a fool I realize you are.

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
18/03/2011 16:36

I missed MORE from the last post.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
18/03/2011 17:00

Dear Tattlad, I'm not 'stupid' - I didn't think you were.. I may be revising my estimation... ;)



Neither, Greek nor Turkish Troops should have been on the island - that's what the UN mandate was about..



Now.. do you see what I mean about irony re today's announcement from TR that 'all nations [should] abide by UN resolutions' .....



Listens to the sound of the penny dropping.... ;)

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
18/03/2011 17:32

I didn't hear of any mass graves being dug up in Libya if you get my drift. listening for echo of a penny dropping ;)

BrightonJim


Joined: 27/07/2010
Posts: 145

Message Posted:
18/03/2011 17:54

Mmmm

Contrary to what you say, I do not think that Turkey's (or Germany or India's for that matter)opposition to the UN Resolution on Libya means they "appear to condone the current regime's policy": it could be that they do not approve of intervention for whatever reason or of course they don't want to damage economic ties.

I suggest if the west had been really serious about helping the Libyan people they would have not procrastinated for so long. I would probably have been in favour of an early intervention but now I am not so sure. Does that make me a Gadaffi sympathiser? Certainly not.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
18/03/2011 18:22

Hi BrightonJim



re msg 10



and HOW do you figure I reckoned a 'no' to the resolution condoned the regime.. ?!



I concur with your reasoning as to possible reasons..



I DON'T agree that the 'west' nations would have done anything without Arab support.. no matter how serious they were..



Do I wish we had had an agreement earlier - of course I do..



It would have been MUCH easier to hold the pro Gaddafi forces between Sirte and Ras Lanouf and it MIGHT have stopped the slaughter of folk in Sawiya and other 'rebel' cities / towns.



You listened to Gaddafi's threats to the people of Benghazi yesterday and the announcement of cessation of hostilities today by his Foreign minister... I'm pretty sure - that if it stopped Gaddafi's promise - it was a good thing...



I most certainly don't think you are a sympathiser of Gaddafi - I DO wonder why you might think otherwise.....

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
18/03/2011 18:23

mmmmmm,



Very ironic, I agree. Turkey appears to still be in the pick&mix section of United Nations resolutions. But then again, when you look at Turkey's human rights record in Cyprus it's perhaps understandable for them to find some common ground with a murderous despot who doesn't care about world opinion.

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
18/03/2011 18:42

Zoots Msg 12.

When did Turkey set out to murder whole villages full of people in Cyprus ? history tells us they came to stop all that, so how the hell should they find common ground with a murderous despot ? surely that is more in line with GC's and Makarios standards.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
18/03/2011 19:42

I'm sure the political prisoners 'banged up' in Turkey would be able to give us all the correct answers!



However, the GC's were just so lucky that Turkey's intervention prevented them wiping themselves out!

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
18/03/2011 23:34

tattlad,

With respect, you are very naive if you believe Turkey arrived with the sole purpose of preventing killings. So why are they still here 37 years later, having illegally partitioned the island? It was a strategic and long-mooted land-grab on a pretext, as you would know if you had studied the full geopolitical and historical framework. You don't have to support either side to see the reality of a given situation.



Why do you think expressions aimed at complete idiots, such as "peace operation", are used? "Peace operations" are carried out by peacekeepers. They do not involve war crimes such as torture, rape, kidnappings, ethnic cleansing and murder of civilians.This form of double-speak is used by those trying to make an excuse for the reality. It may fool the dullards, but a phrase like that jumps out an anyone with average intelligence.

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
19/03/2011 01:19

Go on then Zoots...............tell us your real name !

Happy Hussar


Joined: 01/10/2008
Posts: 318

Message Posted:
19/03/2011 07:33

Yassou Zoots, so you have joined forces with that other know it all 'MMMs' to spout out the GC propaganda.

Just what we need. This board is going to the dogs.

Tony

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
19/03/2011 11:21

Dearest HH



re msg 17



I suggest you need to ask a TC or two about the difference in coming to one's aid and overstaying the welcome...



Turkey's military say they NEED to stay in Cyprus to 'defend Turkey's soft underbelly'..



Speaking personally, to attempt to label me a GC sympathiser.. is somewhat 'pathetic'.. I reflect a pro rapprochement stance which give TCs self determination within a bi-zonal federation - with Cyprus AND TR in the EU.. and ultimately freedom of movement for Cypriots Turks and Greeks ..

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
19/03/2011 17:16

Agree with the above post. The problem with some people on here is that they spent too much time in expat hang-outs to meet any real Turkish Cypriots.

The other type are the ones stuck in Blighty having discovered the decaying, half-finished coastal TRNC "council estate" developments they paid for will never be theirs. So they are bitter bunnies.

But we tried to warn them, didn't we?

hattikins


Joined: 17/02/2008
Posts: 2793

Message Posted:
19/03/2011 17:35

Could Pikey/Jason/Eric Seans etc. etc. etc be back with us, same old, same old from a newish poster.

hattikins


Joined: 17/02/2008
Posts: 2793

Message Posted:
19/03/2011 17:40

Could Pikey/Jason/Eric Seans etc. etc. etc be back with us, same old, same old from a newish poster.

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
19/03/2011 17:42

I heard you the first time. What are you on about? Is this your answer to debate?

kaiserphil


Joined: 14/12/2008
Posts: 1096

Message Posted:
19/03/2011 18:50

Yes, surely everybody recognises the style. He's back.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
19/03/2011 18:57

Kaiserphil/ Hattikins



If you think that Zoots is a banned member contact a mod... In the meantime what do you think about Turkey saying one thing, but doing another ?

Roomy


Joined: 20/02/2011
Posts: 836

Message Posted:
19/03/2011 19:06

Hahahahaha...got to laugh because another idiot stalked me on here for a while accusing me of being a Greek.Heaven forfend anyone takes an opposing view.

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
21/03/2011 21:56

1029: Turkey, which is a member of Nato, says it opposes foreign intervention in what it calls its "friend and brother Libya". Adds that UN resolution is binding on all countries.



answer; Turkey says it agrees with a no fly zone being enforced, and adds that she will help

i don't think anybody wants another irak or afganistan



re mesage 1



Do you think that comment might get picked up the Republic of Cyprus as somewhat 'ironic' ?!



answer; Turkey came to cyprus to save the turks from the greeks. simple ! no irony to be picked up on







Interested to know why Turkey would appear to condone the current regime's policy..



answer; what makes you think this ! get someone to translate prime minister Erdogan's statement about the meeting with gaddafi ( 28 march 2010 ) on the news today. your version has major errors probably lost in translation.



zoots , haven't got the time for you.



trade with libya has been a nightmare for tr businessmen by the way

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
21/03/2011 23:09

msg 26 cannot be that bad trade



Turkish Industry and Trade Minister Nihat Ergün said Thursday that Turkey and Libya should increase the annual trade volume to $10 billion over the next five years.

Last year, the business volume between Turkey and Libya increased by 60 percent, compared to 2008, and reached $2.2 billion.”



http://www.tripolipost.com/articledetail.asp?c=2&i=4461

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
22/03/2011 00:47

lots of business men i.e the private sector have lost their fortunes in libya. obviously there must be success stories also. political gains between the governments i do not know about. what i do know is that the people turkey evacuated from libya were mainly labour force.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
22/03/2011 01:42

re 28 Yunus



Did you READ the quote



Here's the full article:



http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20110318/tpl-uk-libya-un-turkey-43a8d4f.html



YES.. Mr Erdogan is saying 'bad Gaddifi and go Gaddafi' but tell us what could would THAT have done if it hadn't been for the French attacking the Tanks just outside Benghazi ? Tanks don't fly.. but they allowed Gaddafi to enter Misrata, Benghazi, Zawiya, Ras Lanouf etc.,



It is not just a no-fly zone - it is a protect civilians from attack - using force if necessary zone..



If TR isn't in agreement with that policy then it is allowing Gaddifi to continue to use Tanks and artillery against his citizens... may be condoning was too strong a word... We still aren't doing enough now.. too little too late -Gaddafi's armour in cities where it is hard to attack



Your answer re Cyprus neatly forgets that the UN Resolution said Greece / Turkey- take your troops home.. so the irony is: TR asks all to abide by UN resolutions now .. but not th

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
22/03/2011 01:43

(cont from msg 29 ) now ....but not then..... ?!

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
22/03/2011 13:19

Update..



US trying to hand over control of the operation.. to NATO.. but Turkey are blocking this.. !!!



>>1102: More from the BBC's Laura Kuenssberg, who says that ambassadors from NATO's member states are meeting again in Brussels this morning, but the Downing Street source says reaching agreement is proving "difficult" and suggested that in particular getting Turkey in board was proving "hard".<<



From BBC



Rumour is it's because they weren't invited to the Summit in Paris .....



For now it's a 'Hybrid' operation ..... COME ON TURKEY... folks are being shelled by ground forces 'loyal' to Gaddafi ...

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
22/03/2011 14:02

mmmmmm messages,



exactly on cue, you point out the parallels of un resolutions on libya,

and resolutions on "cyprus"



but there is as you know, a dearth of western powers with any motivation

to "have a go" and undertake militarily adventures in the east mediterranean island

with its complex and intractible ethnic separation and pending divorce



you will also appreciate turkey's ak government has a muslim consitituency

and eyebrows there would be raised if in the fog of war civilians are hurt



western "intervention" in libya has un backing more or less, at least arguably so,

while turkey's 1974 intervention in cyprus also had some legal justification

...in terms of turkey's role as co-guarantor of security on the island



you can still claim

that this intervention fell out of favour with leading un security council members,

but as regards shifts in the status quo I believe that turkey's islam-friendly agenda

is of far more significance than greek cypriots waving pi

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
22/03/2011 14:04

various pieces of paper, whether from the eu the un or other worthy organisations



andre

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
22/03/2011 18:30

Andre 514



Thanks for responding.. you seem to have Yunus' 'problem' .. the UN Security Council Resolution in the case of Cyprus was BACKED by Russia and China - they abstained in this case..( Libya)



So my point is still valid ...



In the case of Cyprus the US NSA were QUITE happy to allow TR to take half the island.... it was part of the plan ..

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
22/03/2011 18:35

Mark

NATO have just approved an arms embargo which they will enforce but Turkey wasn't very happy about it.



Richard

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
22/03/2011 19:45

mark message 34.



if you study my posting you will see that it is mostly concerned with the relative

effectiveness of the libya and "cyprus" resolutions, two very different beasts

...together with an explanation of why the powers-that-be take so little interest

in the latter, certainly they have never nor will intervene in our divided cyprus



your comment about russia and china may well be correct

and your assertion about the us and "cyprus" could conceivably have happened,

...or at least you and your friends need to believe that I suppose



would you really want turkey to patrol the libya no-fly-zone?

paradoxically it enforces a no-fly-zone barring nicosia aircraft from the north

and will continue to do so until the blockade is lifted



despite many grumbles and some discontent

it is highly unlikely though the north would ever vote for rule from nicosia,

but there is no harm in sharing your day-dreams of one single island state

...however far-fetched they are in pr

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
22/03/2011 19:47

in practice:



was it not goebbels who said: "the bigger the lie, the more people believe it"?

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
22/03/2011 20:00

Erdogan on the 19.00 news ; NATO should enter Libya with the goal of leaving Libya to the Libyan people, not to share the underground resources between the coalition forces who have so willingly jumped in to help the Libyan people ! ! !



as i said after irak and afganistan, i think this is the first time i agree with him. do you know the facts about irak and afganistan 6 m's.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
22/03/2011 21:06

well done turkey , as for mr cameron his a twat ,the uk is bleeding to death ,it,s people are bleeding to death and what do we do start another war ,yes i did say start cos that,s what he has done ,remember it,s easy to start a war any muppet can do it but when it comes to ending one that,s a little more tricky.



the british people will pay in the long run with even more terrorist attacks on our country .



musin



long live the kktc

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
23/03/2011 13:22

musin,



no-one could argue the opressed libyan people deserve to be free of gadaffi's thugs,

though I find it difficult to argue with you that this night bombing will in itself ever

achieve that...



to link this with some earlier comments, any change anywhere can only be effected

with a total uprising, or with "boots on the ground" (which covers a multitude of sins)



otherwise, waving un resolution papers or the most thoughtful of eu "interim reports"

will only serve to give their supporters a warm glow and little else

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
23/03/2011 13:41

Some people might, justifiably, query quite who is the bigger hypocrite - the West, or Turkey!

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
23/03/2011 15:47

re 38 Yunus



This is not Iraq (or Afghanistan )



In the case of the latter - please tell me about their oil ? .. This had more to do with the Taliban influence extending into Pakistan ( Nuclear power)



In the case of the former.. some of us forget - all too quickly - how it was only fear that kept the Kurds, Shias and Marsh Arabs, et al under 'control' ...



There are about the same number of US troops in the WHOLE of Iraq as opposed to TR troops in 'north' Cyprus...



Mr Erdogan would be better to offer to put TR troops( from Cyprus ?) on the ground in Libya as folk continue to die in cities like Misrata - better he stopped talking for local consumption and DID something..... and he would be complying - in the end - with a UN Resolution ;)

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
23/03/2011 15:51

re 40 andre:



>>though I find it difficult to argue with you that this night bombing will in itself ever



achieve that... <<



Hmm, let's not forget the French destroyed a supply line just outside Benghazi - on Saturday - and that if everyone else had still been talking - pro Gaddafi tanks might have been in Tobruk..



Andre, folks DID rise .. Misrata, Zawiya, Beghazi, Tobruk - and even Triopli - but it is 'hard' to fight with AK47's when the 'govnt' forces have artillery that will eliminate you before you are in range..

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
23/03/2011 18:36

mmmmmm re message 42



In the case of the latter - please tell me about their oil ? .. This had more to do with the Taliban influence extending into Pakistan ( Nuclear power)



Dear mmmmmm, - Thanks for responding. I don't understand why to pick and chose the information you convey.



you seem to chose to forget about the drugs aspect ! Don't ( try to ) deflect, dear chap



Afghanistan is, as of March, 2010, the greatest illicit opium producer in the world, ahead of Burma (Myanmar) and the "Golden Triangle". Afghanistan is the main producer of opium in "Golden Crescent". Opium production in Afghanistan has been on the rise since U.S. occupation started in 2001



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_production_in_Afghanistan



i don't really like wikipedia so you can google it yourself if you wish ! there are many sites with the same info !



it is the same U.S who is in control of the attacks on libya ! or DO you chose to ignore this fact also !





i rest my case.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
23/03/2011 19:30

Dear Yunus



re 43 Thanks for responding you've made my day re your drugs and Taliban connection.. I wonder if you actually read the wiki link you sent !?



FACT.. the Taliban destroyed most of the drugs crops when in 'power' - one good thing they did - and now they fund their 'campaign' by ( guess what ? ) ..drugs..



So.. the International Assistant Security Forces came to to increase drugs production' ?! )))



Sorry Yunus - I may have missed something ...



BTW the topic is Libya - and right now - I'm SURE - if you asked most folk in Benghazi, Mistra and if you COULD ask someone in Zawiya - they'd happily have the coalition forces attacking more often ...

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
23/03/2011 21:31

So.. the International Assistant Security Forces came to to increase drugs production' ?!





yes mmmmmm the u.s is now a drugs dealer ! the biggest on the planet !



the libyan people , just like the irak'i people do not know what they are in for ! i do hope ground forces are not deployed.



The Iraqi dead and wounded we see are only half the story. The spineless, mindless UK and US media neglect to report the spectacular rise in birth defects and cancers in young Iraqi's caused by British and American made DU (nuclear waste) embedded in the Iraqi environment - since the 1991 Gulf War.



http://www.sxolsout.org.uk/zreal1.html



what are your thoughts 6m ?

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
23/03/2011 22:42

Re mmmmm



And you still want him in EU? 'better he stopped talking for local consumption and DID something' Why should he? If 'it’s not possible for a Muslim to commit genocide' in Darfur then the slaughter of rebel cities is just internal unrest.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
23/03/2011 23:11

marky



you seem to be blinded by turkey and cyprus sitiuation and you miss the real reason which we all know is oil

it,s not about caring for the libyan people ,not so long ago all leaders were hugging and kissing the man including obama ,there are many countries right now as we speak fighting and killing each other and have been ongoing for many years with thousands of people dying or having their limbs cut off ,why are we not there ,simple NO OIL.what do you think will be achieved by the bombing,do you really believe it will save lives or kill even more people .

i say it is not up to us to deal with libya ,it,s up to the libyans ,mr cameron should be dealing with his own country before he has problems of violence closer to home ,the uk is shrinking by the day ,it has been called del boy economics run by rodney and boy it feels just like that.



musin



long live the kktc

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
24/03/2011 00:49

>>yes mmmmmm the u.s is now a drugs dealer ! the biggest on the planet ! <<



THAT would be the Taliban and other tribal war lords..



>>the libyan people , just like the irak'i people do not know what they are in for ! i do hope ground forces are not deployed. <<



Oh, but they do [those watching 'Gaddafi TV' ] - they are under attack from "the 21 st Century Crusaders" and Gaddafi has called 'his brother Muslims' to arms .... [ head banging against bric wall emoticon goes here]



I think if we are now talking about the side-effects of spent Uranium - you may wish to consider the lives lost in wars with Kuwait, Iran ( 1 million plus) and within Iraq ( who knows ?) - under Saddam, and the poisonous gases dropped on Kurds and from the burning oil-wells as his forces retreated from Kuwait and the women raped by his 'soldiers' - it is not an even score..

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
24/03/2011 01:05

message 49:



my advice...



stick to your un resolutions, formula 1 and pouring concrete for satellite dishes

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
24/03/2011 01:08

andre



re msg 50



MY advice - explain yourself ......

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
24/03/2011 15:34

I am with 6m's on this. Libya is not about oil. If it was then the easy option would be for the International community to support and back Gadaffi. It wouldn't take long for gadaffi to take out the rebels and then the oil production would resume as normal. The IC has taken the long and hard road.



The trouble is, people use Oil as a universal 'symbol'. It stands for protectionism (to the nationalists), anti capitalism (to the Socialists) and anti Westernism (to the Islamist hardcore).



As far as Turkey goes. Well, it is doing what most countries tend to do, which is to weigh the practicalities with idealism. It may have decided that Libya is going to split in two, too revert back to the two provinces it was before it was colonised by Italy. By staying neutral Turkey could still maintain its lucrative trade with Western Libya. It may eventually have chosen the wrong side though and we may still see her switch. I dont know as I have not looked at the Turkish press.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
24/03/2011 15:58

message 52:



not about oil?



perhaps not in the very narrowest sense

but reports suggest gadaffi has built up huge reserves of cash

from redirected oil revenues



...does anyone want to allow the bloke that amount of power?

I wonder if that is really "progress"



oops! use of cyprob-loaded blanket label



dunno about idealism,

but turkey now keeps an eye on opinion in the islamic world

and given the west's iraq and afghanistan cock-ups

they may only have to wait a while for the west to mess up



I wonder if it is even possible to separate idealism/pragmatism

or self-interest etc etc

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
24/03/2011 16:04

message 52:



not about oil?



perhaps not in the very narrowest sense

but reports suggest gadaffi has built up huge reserves of cash

from redirected oil revenues



...does anyone want to allow the bloke that amount of power?

I wonder if that is really "progress"



oops! use of cyprob-loaded blanket label



dunno about idealism,

but turkey now keeps an eye on opinion in the islamic world

and given the west's iraq and afghanistan cock-ups

they may only have to wait a while for the west to mess up



I wonder if it is even possible to separate idealism/pragmatism

or self-interest etc etc

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
24/03/2011 16:53

msge 53



I have stated on another Libyan thread that oil is a consideration. It has to be as it is the life blood of the Industrial machine but I don't see it as the primary motive. Obama has been heavily influenced to take action by Professor Samantha Power, one of the senior directors at the National security council. She was a journalist in the Balkans in the 90's and she wrote a book on the Rwandan genocide.



Talking of power and oil. I think investors hold far more power than Gadaffi will ever have. Long term investors and hoarders of raw materials like oil, gold and copper etc are pushing up the prices. Apparently, there are also plenty of productive commodities being taken off the market and stored in warehouses so as to push the prices up.



I think you have made very sagacious comments about Turkey. I agree it has a big eye on the Islam.



Can you separate Idealism from pragmatism. Interesting thought. I think you can, it is rare, but may become more normalised.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
24/03/2011 17:11

msge 55



just elaborate on my last paragraph. It's not well written.



The individual will find it hard to separate base needs from higher values. Feeding oneself and dealing with waste are something that preocupies the individual. Holding higher ideals will be hard for the individual as base needs will still exist in the background. I am quite certain though that individuals are pulled towards higher values. We know individuals who lived higher values like Ghandi and Martin Luther King. They sacrificed themselves (literally) for higher ideals.



I guess at a National level, like the individual, the government has to deal with similar needs as the individual, dealing with food and waste etc. Again like the individual I think governments are increasingly being pulled to demonstrate higher values.

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
24/03/2011 20:38

yunus msg 38:

"Erdogan on the 19.00 news ; NATO should enter Libya with the goal of leaving Libya to the Libyan people, not to share the underground resources between the coalition forces who have so willingly jumped in to help the Libyan people ! ! !"

Presumably Turkey will now stop interfering in other sovereign country's oil/gas explorations offshore from Cyprus.

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
25/03/2011 14:56

zoooooottttttsssssss



Presumably Turkey will now stop interfering in other sovereign country's oil/gas explorations offshore from Cyprus





Mersin 10, Turkey, also has that right. maybe we should all stop interfering.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
25/03/2011 15:04

I think we are all missing the point:



the original posting was to put turkey in the dock (again)



in reality the lybprob has as little to do with cyprus issues

as it is almost possible to be



...despite the supposed use of the sba for patrolling flights

and in which the uk has every legal right to do so



andre

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
25/03/2011 16:33

Dear Yunus re 58



>>Mersin 10, Turkey, also has that right. maybe we should all stop interfering. <<



Which brings us neatly back to my point ... UN resolutions ARE binding on all countries... unless you are Turkey ?! ;)



re msg 59

>>the original posting was to put [T]urkey in the dock (again) <<



No, it *was* saying something of the lines of "people in glass houses...."

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
25/03/2011 17:45

Turkey has now cleared the way for NATO to take control of the no fly zone.



It seems that Erdogan was smarting over being excluded from the no fly zones in Paris at the weekend. His is particularly angry at France who he sees as the main obstacle to Turkeys entrance in to the EU.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
25/03/2011 19:14

message 61



and don't forget the voters of germany, austria, netherlands etc etc



anyway, back to the lybprob:



...the real deal is a no-drive zone and nato is presently unable to act on that



but the french may continue to use gadaffi tanks for target practice

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
25/03/2011 19:47

Which brings us neatly back to my point ... UN resolutions ARE binding on all countries... unless you are Turkey ?! ;)



message 60



do you know what has been discussed behind closed doors ?



i think you always seem to look at things from a very different perspective.



message 62



but the french may continue to use gadaffi tanks for target practice



the new Libyan government will have to buy a lot of new arms to replace all the losses ! maybe from the French ?

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
25/03/2011 20:32

most people are trying to employ a variety of partisan "agendas"

...and I suppose I would have to include myself



but states generally operate on the basis of do what I say not what I do

and double standards is the name of the game



yet things could be worse than they are:

the thread is not entirely full of waffle, but dangerously-so



yes, any new libyan government will be shopping for some arms I suppose,

but all the world's experts cannot predict what will happen in that country



except to hardly mention turkey except in passing,

...unless one is so off the wall that "lyprob" reads "the cyprus question"

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
28/03/2011 17:01

Russia is now accusing NATO of taking sides in a civil war

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
28/03/2011 17:17

Russia should have thought of that when sending "mercenaries" there!

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
28/03/2011 18:16

russia and libya:



statements from moscow are neither sour grapes nor idealism



if the libyans manage to push out the gadaffis, by no means a done deal

they will be at least grateful to france, america and britain, for the lttle help from their (new) friends

...russian influence and economic/finacial/political standing will wane



the whole episode shows the real limits of un resolutions, binding or otherwise,

unlike the league of nations when a cosy fantasy of peace was in vogue

the un will actually take practical steps if leading members like the usa say so



but the goal has to be achievable and directly to the benefit of leading security council states



this is why supposed "binding resolutions" on libya mean sarkosey bombing gadaffi tanks,

as opposed to the sheerest improbability of the same sort of "binding resolution"

securing any territorial gains for the greek cypriots

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
28/03/2011 18:41

UN resolutions never solved any problem anywhere in the world! As far as I am concerned, the UN has no international right to approve of an attack on third parties by other third parties. Many member states never felt "bound" by the resolutions passed and carried on as they pleased when it suited them.

If the UN wants to act they can call for a UN force to act and recruit an international army - but to no avail as history has proven many times over. The only force that acted militarily and effectively to resolve a conflict amongst third parties have been the NATO forces (as in S.Korea and Bosnia) and. Note that neither of these countries had much to offer in terms of natural resources for exploitation!

Currently, the UN resolutions are being used as an excuse by some European countries as an excuse to pretend they are acting in good faith, when we all know what they really are after - hence the initial reluctance to allow NATO forces take command of any operations in the area.

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
28/03/2011 19:03

mmmmm...

The original post that started this thread is now "null & void" on the grounds that;

a) It is very clear that Turkey does not condone the current regime in Libya (if you do understand Turkish and listen to Turkish TV News every night). The fact that PM does not condone unilateral actions by UK and France does not necessarily mean he condones Gaddafi's regime.

b) PM Erdoğan has been screaming out that any action carried out must be aimed at making life easier for the civilians and avoid unnecessary loss of life - not with the intentions of sharing/taking over the oil revenue of that country

c) France & UK helped Khomeni overthrow the Iranian Shah - to be replaced by a fundamentalist regime that has proved to be another enemy of the West.

d) France and UK supported Saddam's regime and overlooked the suffering/butchering of the civilians for many decades - to end up at war with the country

e) The Libyan rebels openly admit "Al Kaida" links!

HYPOCRISY! What?

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
29/03/2011 00:08

bigOz:



on 22 june 1941 winston churchill spoke about russia

saying he would make a pact with the devil himself in order to overthrow the nazis



you are right to be sceptical about an easy "transition" to democracy for libya

...but national interests are at stake here



obviously turkey and russia valued their relations with the gadaffi regime

and are none too impressed with the west's new-found committment to democracy

...after all wasn't it a cia agent who said about one latin american dictator:

"yes he is a son of a bitch, but he is our son of a bitch"



I think you are missing the intention of the original posting,

to put turkey in the dock yet again, although this time it is for supposed pacifism

rather than so-called agression!



(oh and by now the crocodile tears must be a veritable torrent),

its no-intervention reaction to the libprob puts it at odds with its nato parteners



...how fortunate for turkish cypriots, then, that it decided otherwise in 1974