ECHR Orders Turkey To Pay Damages To GCs

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
24/05/2011 20:44

http://www.cyprusweekly.com.cy/main/92,1,283,0,19999-CYPRUS.aspx

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
24/05/2011 20:48

I think this was one of the last class actions before Turkey election to trial a local remedy



Has anyone had compensation for 'loss of use' from the IPC ?

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
24/05/2011 21:56

mark



no we are still waiting.





musin





long live the kktc

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
24/05/2011 22:02

Hi Musin



I didn't know you had a claim against Turkey for land / property taken forcibly from you !

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
24/05/2011 22:03

mark



you can,t always be right .







musin





long live the kktc

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
24/05/2011 22:15

it is pretty clear by now that the threat of compensation claims

has very little bearing indeed on the cyprus "question" if there is one



out of around 25,000 foreign property buyers only one elderly couple

came a cropper from the compensation-culture and if this lot here

slipped in under the net it is hardly effective for propaganda purposes



not only is there the legal local remedy, but in early 2010 the echr

for the first time conceded that newer occupants also had "rights"



this cannot apply however to the 100,000 victims of developer "loans"

in south cyprus who may never get to own what they naiively paid for

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
24/05/2011 22:18

>>it is pretty clear by now that the threat of compensation claims



has very little bearing indeed on the cyprus "question" if there is one <<



You're 'too funny'.. it was legal actions at the ECHR ( some started BY TCs) that got TR to do something about the festering property issue and got the crossing points open...



AJ... where are you? [ re policing facts.. ;) ]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
24/05/2011 22:22

This is the last remnats of cases that the ECHR accepted before the IPC was inplace in a form that the ECHR deem as a valid local remedy.



MM do you mean has anyone been compensated ONLY for lose of use by the IPC or do you mean does it contain an element in settlements for this as well? If the former, the IPC can not settle claims just for loss of use. It has and does award dmages for loss of use on the claims it settles.



The IPC's website is here in english

http://www.kuzeykibristmk.org/english/index.html



goto the documents / statistics section to see what has been awarded to date. This does not show the breakdown of how much of the compensation is for loss of use, but it is part of the cacluation.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
24/05/2011 22:33

What about the compensation paid by the roc to so-called refugees, does that reduce the claims or do they expect it both ways?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
24/05/2011 22:39

Troodo very little compensation has been paid to RoC refuges. A very small minority have recieved freehold property from the RoC and many get various state benefits for being 'refugees' and no these things do not reduce their ability to claim or the amount they recieve



On the issue of loss of use for TC, those who have been blocked from claiming as a result of the '6 month rule' have and can claim for loss of use. The lady who case was a day away from a ECHR ruling and who settled at the last mintue did get a 'loss of use' component to her settlement. The RoC has also pledged to change the law so others can do likewise, though they are doing so in the most restrictive manner they can.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
24/05/2011 22:46

re msg 8



Thanks, ErolZ



I've never checked the site out, before... the fact that it discusses this being and enactment of 'TRNC law' rather than this being Turkey's obligation ( the ECHR case *is* mentioned) probably ( and understandably) puts some claimants off ..



It seems that claims are WAY up, recently..



I strongly believe that these institutions ARE the way forward - as long as the judgements are deemed fair..

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
24/05/2011 22:53

I personaly wish Cypriots in general would stop being so paranoid about such things as labels. That the IPC talks about the TRNC does NOTHING to legitimise the TRNC. Nor does the fact that the ECHR accepts the IPC doanything to legitimise the TRNC. So to not make a claim because you worry about the labels used to me is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I too beleive that these instituions are a way forward. I would welcome and equivalent in the RoC to be honest.

There are still many issues to be fought relating to the work of the IPC. The RoC refusal to recognise exhanges of land in the south awarded by the IPC in settlements is one that needs resolution and will eventualy be decided by the ECHR.

If the judgments of the IPC become 'unfair' then the ECHR will again force them to get back inline.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
24/05/2011 22:57

that,s just it mark ,they are not fair ,it took me almost 4 years just to get my mothers deeds for her house and her land from the south ,the first thing they told me when i started the procedure was that the address i gave them which was in turkish DID NOT exsist ,and i must be a liar.



still she now has them.





musin



long live the kktc

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
24/05/2011 23:05

and there be the answer , musin , youre a star ,

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
24/05/2011 23:20

les



their are many ,many people who have been through the same problems as i did ,so much so ,that they now have gc lawyers to deal with it for you ,at a cost of course.





musin



long live the kktc

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
24/05/2011 23:53

Hi ErolZ



re 12



1/ Labels ARE important... ANYTHING with 'TRNC' on it is still a 'no no' ... RoC still point to THAT resolution ( and 'forget' that TCs effectively voted to end 'TRNC' in 2004 !!



2/ I'm quite sure that the ECHR will rule re a new body - replacing the RoC TC property Guardian - I wonder why more TCs don't claim - as the 'six month residency rule' was effectively ditched in an out of court settlement with a TC lady - orig from Larnaca



3/ The lack of GCs using the IPC - effectively legitimised it - they SHOULD have tested it.. and Turkey.. chance gone now.. FOOLISH campaigns to berate those considering using it will come home to roost

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
25/05/2011 00:21

The RoC pledged to make the minimum change on 6 month rule they could get away with. That is it is being removed for those in the Ladys circumstances, which I think of the top of my head, was she was not resident in Cyprus in 74. The 6 month rule remains for TC who were resident in Cyprus in 74, but will sooner or later be removed by challenge in the ECHR or imminent threat of such.

I personally hope the IPC extends its deadline for claims as it has dfone previously and more GC avail themselves of it.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
25/05/2011 06:54

Zoots is like a grenadier... not knowing who is inside he throws an explosive device through the window and hides behind the wall waiting for the explosion and casualties.

Zoots, Surely you can do better than pasting in articles from other hacks and dodgy websites which seems to be your current modus operandi.

To what end? Really the only thing we glean from this, as if it were necessary, is confirmation of your anti-Turkish sympathies.

We get it. We know you have a problem with the Turkish Intervention and the separation of the island.

You also have a problem with people who have settled here and made a life for themselves... Quite why you have such racist tendencies is not clear.. we don't get proper debate from you. Only one side, often misquoted and distorted to fit your agenda.

The demographics of every European country change as immigration and emigration change the blend of peoples residing there. Why do you have such a problem with Turks? Jealousy?

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
25/05/2011 09:02

yes groucho I really do fear zoots is losing his grip



...first he tried talking up the cyprus "negociations"



when the absurdity of that dream became clear,

he harped on about war crimes, which do go on in

the world, along with very many sectarian killings



then we were bombarded with threats referring to

the compensation culture, which is now discredited



meanwhile he gaily described british expats as

"lacking in education", a hardly endearing term:



perhaps that is why he assumed nobody would

spot "citation needed", at the end of his turgid

pasted-in article above



I think he should take a "long holiday" in the sun:

north cyprus has many places that tick the boxes

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
25/05/2011 10:24

andre514



re msg 19



Even as the Cyprus talks get nowhere, the ECHR decisions have had the effect of freeing up movement fro Cypriots and EU citizens and starting a recognised process for property issues to be sorted.



Zoots has long pointed out some bizarre decisions re non Cypriots 'buying' in 'TRNC' and was pilloried...



Even you must see that those predictions are coming home to roost.



>>I think he should take a "long holiday" in the sun:



north cyprus has many places that tick the boxes<<



I'm sure he knows that ;) ..

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
25/05/2011 11:08

Groucho msg 18: "Zoots is like a grenadier... not knowing who is inside he throws an explosive device through the window and hides behind the wall waiting for the explosion and casualties."

OK, from now on I'll shout: "Fire in the hole" before posting a link worthy of debate. Perhaps what you mean is you don't like the debate created and, perhaps, the uncomfortable reminder about what awaits people in "TRNC" who have made foolish property investments.

"We get it. We know you have a problem with the Turkish Intervention and the separation of the island."

As long as people use silly words like "intervention" when the rest of the world calls it "invasion", I'll be here to remind you about the reality. And it doesn't look good for many foreigners in north Cyprus.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
25/05/2011 11:41

Turkey INTERVENED when the GREEKS INVADED, and to stop the GC's murdering TC's. Or, was it just a friendly coup among brothers?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
25/05/2011 11:42

If you actually debated zoots people would have less of an issue with your views and behaviour here I suspect. The reality as far as I am concerned is you do not debate.

To date one non citizen buyer of disputred property in the North has lost that property as a result of it being disputed following the events of 74. Thousands have had endless problems buying property in the North, disputed title and non disputed title. No one knows what will happen in the future. You continualy push the idea that they and their interests will be sacraficed by Turkey and the TRNC, with the Turkey / TRNC arbitarily seizing the disputed property they have bought and ejecting them from the TRNC in order to agreed a settlement with the RoC. This is possible just as its possible the RoC backed by an EU force would sieze control of the North back and force such people from their homes and Cyprus. Both are possible but neither is very likley in reality.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
25/05/2011 11:47

[cont]

No one can forsee the future but if one was to have a reasonable debate about it then one would have to look at the past. One would have to look at for example what provisions were made for disputed property and current occupants in previous attempts to agree a solution, even if those agreements were rejected. They still represnt some indication of how things might go in the future, certainly more so than just dreaming up extreme senarios and presnting them as 'almost certain to happen', as you do zoots. One would also have to look at what entites like the ECHR have said about the rights of current users of disputed property vs the rights of those displaced. Looking at such things does not mean you can know the future, but is consistent with real deabte on the issue. Just asserting that you are all going to get screwed is not debate. Its is yet again just rehtoric.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
25/05/2011 15:02

I should have put - and to stop the GC's murdering TC's and each other.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
25/05/2011 19:42

See Zoots, you are not really debating the issues; just re-iterating the anti-Turkish view of things that you have always made clear... are you going to bring anything new to the table?

It's exactly the same on the other thread you have initiated. Your purpose, not to inform but to cause discomfort. Not very honourable.

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
25/05/2011 20:01

Groucho,

Honourable people don't skulk behind the protection of the Turkish Army while exploiting property belonging to ethnically cleansed war victims. So lecturing me about honour cuts no ice.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
25/05/2011 21:39

zoots message 21 and some general remarlks:





I am accused by those who know much better of giving you a hard time



you are impressively articulate when discussing supposed crimes of turkey,

fueling all the nagging insecurities of north cyprus property owners...

or whoever is nowadays in posession of various pieces of abandoned

real estate north of the green line



you would have us believe that the many sectarian killings, intimidation,

murders of uk soldiers, and ethnic displacements of turkish cypriots 1963

until the fascist coup in 1974, are if I follow your reasoning correctly,

not war crimes as such, at least in any technical sense



...and in any event, everybody on planet earth is entitled to their opinions!



but since you are part-armenian isn't it more likely that the resentment

you pretend and the chip you carry, are less to do with the "cyprus problem"

than it might at first appear to the casual observer?

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
25/05/2011 22:08

pikey msg27 ,you are only reading from the greek papers , it was the greeks who tried to ethnically cleanse the island , while never had the actuall bottle to invade from the mainland , they gave the go ahead to a few spineless noughts , then stood back to see the reaction of turkey , as soon as the turkish troops came in , athens turned its back on the spineless ones , lets not forget turkey could have wiped everything greek from the island in a very short time , but chose the humanitariam option , not something the greeks had on theyre minds asshole .

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
25/05/2011 22:13

So nothing new then Zoots? I thought not.

It doesn't take you long to outstay your welcome...

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
25/05/2011 22:27

andre,

You've always been civilised and haven't resorted to dirty tricks as others have, so I have no problem with your challenging of my opinion.

I hope I am articulate about Turkey's crimes in Cyprus because this is a TRNC forum and it's crucial that the balance is redressed. People have been misled, fleeced and lied to because there is a fear of criticising the regime.

A few years ago the very few people who spoke out against the corruption and nepotism in the TRNC - and in particular about Gary Robb - were attacked just as I am here and eventually banned from forums. Why? Because other expat members (some of them still here) were pocketing commission for selling Robb's properties and the BBs were getting AGA advertising. So these members were called "GC spies" etc etc and hounded out.

It was the same response when people like me warned against buying "exchange" property without PTP. We were right!

EOKA were of course non-war killers and the Armenian thing has no bearing at all

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
25/05/2011 22:34

rowlo,

You've been speaking to someone in a Kyrenia bar by the sounds of it. There's a hell of a lot more to the Cyprob than you suggest. And if your laughable suggestion that Turkey's invasion was "humanitarian" were true, then why has Turkey been found guilty under international law of despicable war crimes in Cyprus?

Remember, each side committed atrocities but it's not Greece or Cyprus that stands in the dock condemned by the world, it's Turkey. Why should that be?

I'd hate to live in your kind of bubble. Knowledge is power.

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
25/05/2011 22:36

Groucho Msg 30,

Don't take your problems with cowboy tradesman or witty folk in Thailand out on me. I'm one of the good guys.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
25/05/2011 22:49

Zoots, I see your tack has changed to mockery... your usual sleight of hand when called out.

I have no problems with witty folk in Thailand... Well, I'd hardly call it wit.

BTW did your mum tell you that you were one of the good guys?

Journalists, I've come to the conclusion, will believe almost anything.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
25/05/2011 23:19

Turkey been found guilty under international law of despicable war crimes in Cyprus? - Pardon.

Chapter and verse please.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
25/05/2011 23:27

Oh I really should not say anything but some BS is just too egregious to ignore. Zoots says "You've always been civilised and haven't resorted to dirty tricks as others have, so I have no problem with your challenging of my opinion."

For nine years I have watched you respond to challenges of your opinion from me and others with personal insults and attacks and lies and insinuation. After nine years I started a single post here to point out the truth that you have used a sucesssion of alternate ID's to launch such attacks and push your agenda and I did so in order to show that you were posting things you knew not to be true. My record in terms of civilised debate over nine years accross multiple forums is unimpeachable. Just ask me to prove it, for I most surely can. Your record of attacking the poster and not the post as a means to avoiding challenges, insulting and sluring posters like myself is as consistent and clear as my record for civilised debate and just as provable

[cont]

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
25/05/2011 23:30

Why give the sailor bhoy the time of day........clearly this little man is obsessed and is not well.



only a matter of time before his fuse will blow and he will be carted off to the assembly line to be reconditioned with his GC guff and a new identity to boot!



XXXX

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
25/05/2011 23:34

Even under your latest single ID you have accused me personaly of being a facist, akin to the killers in cyprus in the 50 and 60's, an 'agent' of the TRNC, of living in a former GC home, a trouble maker who soulf be deported and more besides. Never with a shred of evidence. I could show you have been doing this for 9 years now and long before I ever posted about your multiple ID's, but of course that can only be shown by connecting your pervious idenitities, which would be 'dirty tricks' wouldnt it ?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
25/05/2011 23:40

Troodo msg35 it is true that there were incidents of attrocities carry out by Turkish troops and TC in cyprus during the events of 74 and which are not justifiable in any way. That can not be denied. Just as it is true there were also attrocites comitted by Greek and GC's in the same period (and before), such as masacers of whole villages. I have no problem with people pointing out the truth of Turkish and TC attrocities. I do have a problem with people posting things they know not to be true intentfully and waging an 'information war' under the guise of being a 'good guy' and just interested in 'honest debate', when all the evidence of their own posts and behaviour over many many years clearly shows otherwise.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 00:52

ErolZ



I keep asking this.. you weren't posting here.... When did the TCs massacred in Cyprus in '74 ? ( .eg. Tochni , etc.,)



Was it before Turkey 'intervened' ( GCs were fighting each other..right?) or after they broke the ceasefire, walked out of the Zurich talks and resumed the offensive to take the pre-arranged 'Taksim' territory..?

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 01:58

What difference does it make when they did.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 02:14

MM my understanding is that Tochni incident occured on the same day that the 2nd round of peace negotiatons in Geneva broke down, August 14th 1974.

However having had this discussion before on other sites with other people, I fail to see how when it happened changes what happened. What happened , happened and is well documented. It was a crime against humaninty and in effect a war crime as well. Whilst you can argue that if Turkey had not abandoned peace talks in favour of decisive military action what happened at Tochni would not have happened, with some credance, for me it does not change the reality that these things did happend and they were undoubtedly 'attrocites' by any estimation. I also understand that both sides were in breach of prior 'cease fire' agreements before the 14th Aug, in various ways and that during this period many TC villages were under effective siege.

For detailed accounts of events of 74 at the political level I recommend M. A.Birands

[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 02:15

book '30 Hot Days' , with the usual disclaimers about taking this source in context as one amongst many and not as a sole definative truth.

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 02:36

mmmmmm;

There is documented evidence of TCs being killed by EOKA B before any military action was taken to establish the Attila Line. Most of the evidence is from the GC sources that cannot be disputed. It is very late at night now, but dare me next time you are on this subject and I shall provide you with all the evidence you want. You are also conveniently ignoring the atrocities carried out by the same during mid 60s, in your haste to show the other side such a peace loving angels! Most are like that now, but that is only after they realized (the hard way) what a big mistake they made by believing Turkey would never invade!

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 04:39

MM for info I dug up just a couple of the many previous discussions realted to your question in msg 40 from cyprus-forum.com



http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?p=350452#350452



Some pretty well documented evidence of attacks on TC between Phase one of the Turkish action (20th July 74) and phase 2 (14 Aug 74). But just to show I am not biased here is a post making the point that no TC were harmed between the Greek/ GC coup in Cyprus on 15th of July 74 and the start of Turkish military action on 20th July 74.



These issue as relevant to discussions relating to Turkey's claims that phase 2 of its operation in 74 necessary to protect TC from further attacks by GC. They are however, to me at least, irrelevant to the issue of were there attrocites comitted by both sides in 74. Clearly there was.



http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?p=45988#45988

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 04:49

Oh and one more for you



http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?p=12434#12434



This one might be of interest because I think we disagreed previously on there being GC who accepted that the inital action by Turkey was legal and justifed, but the subsequent failure to restore the constitution and impose a 'solution' by force of arms was not ( a view I share by the way). It is from discussions like these I got the impression that there were GC who accepted Turkeys inital intervention / invasion / action was justified, something I have a memory of you disputing with me before, but might have remebered that wrong. In any case it touches on the questions you raised in 40.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 12:37

Hi ErolZ



I have said - many times - that I could have understand TR 'intervening' - but not staying - IF they hadn't agreed to the UN mandate to peace keep and hadn't also been arming TCs and clearly prepared for the invasion - and with long term aims of TAKSIM.



I'm not trying to be 'clever'..Samson's action against GCs were that of a thug, but I know many GCs who were TOTALLY alien to any concept of disenfranchising TCs ( of rights / property) who ended up fighting alongside theror enemy of days before... against Turkish conscripts who knew nothing of the complexities - just that all GCs were the enemy...



You realise my point is reasonable... the timing of events is crucial - cause and event...



The 'peace movement' brought about more deaths, injuries and crimes of a demeaning nature in a short period than al other incidents put together... :(



Big Oz, I await your post with an open mind....

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 13:15

MM if I had said the the 2nd phase of the Turkish action was necessary because before it massacres like Tochni were going on and these had to be stopped, then yes pointing out that Tochni happend on the same day as the 2nd phase is indeed reasonable. However all I said was , in response to troodo, was that attrocites were comitted by Turkish troops and some TC during the events of 74 as were comitted by GC against TC. As such I do not think the precise timmings of what attrocity happened when impacts the point or truth of what I said.

Turkey was arming TC in this period and earlier, just as Greece was arming GC as well as sending vast numbers of troops covertly to Cyprus. Many of these Greek troops were withdrawn in 67 under imminent threat of Turkish intervetnion but the arming of both sides by the mohterlands continued none the less.

Taksim could never have been achieved without a GC / Greek long term aim of Enosis.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 13:23

Just as there were 'ordinary' GC who were against disenfranchising TCs until the events of 74, so too there were 'ordinary' TC who were against taksim, but were pushed towards accepting it in the face of GC actions between 63-74 and the failure of the world community to not only stop GC illegalites but to 'reward' them with recogntion as the 'legitimate' government of all of cyprus (pre 74).



It is true that in absolute numbers the MILITARY action of 74 led to more deaths and attrocites than the period before in a much shorter space of time. However there is a difference between military action and casualties from it and from being attcked and murderd by ethnic armed illegal paramilitary thugs being run out the interior ministry of the very government that claims to represent you and was granted 'legitimacy' by the world community whilst doing so. Also in % terms relative to the communites size the impact of the murder of TC civilans in the period 64-68 was profound.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 14:10

Dear ErolZ



I am in no way 'tricking' you.. I'm merely pointing out that atrocities like Tochni... and that is what they were.. happened AFTER - as a result of a serious breach of trust by Turkey.



Naturally, I await bigOz's input but, I have waited - a long time - for evidence of tales of massacres pre/ post dating the 3 weeks immediately before or after the invasion.



YES many - the majority (?) of GCs wanted Enosis, but if you noticed - the coup was right wingers -sponsored by a right wing ( unpopular in GR ) Greek Military Junta - desperate for a 'good news' story.. Makarios was left of centre and 'HAD' to be killed to achieve 'Enosis' ..



That the whole scenario - with - any scenario with Makarios out of the way being a 'win win' - with Cypriots pawns in a bigger game is oft overlooked.



Many GCs realised that TR might come.. but they genuinely believed they wouldn't stay...

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 16:32

MM I know you are not trying to trick me, no need to say it. Did you look at the first of the links I posted. There is evidence of attacks on TC after phase 1 and before the onset of phase 2, if that is what you were looking for. From 'Zan's' post in the first link I posted



"On 23rd July 1974 the Washington Post reported "In a Greek raid on a small Turkish village near Limassol 36 people out of a population of 200 were killed. The Greeks said that they had been given orders to kill the inhabitants of the Turkish villages before the Turkish forces arrived." (See also Times, Guardian, 23rd July). "

[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 16:36

and



"On 28th July the New York Times reported that 14 Turkish-Cypriot men had been shot in Alaminos. On 24th July 1974 "France Soir" reported "The Greeks burned Turkish mosques and set fire to Turkish homes in the villages around Famagusta. Defenceless Turkish villagers who have no weapons live in an atmosphere of terror and they evacuate their homes and go and live in tere a shame to humanity."



Its true that the 'larger' and more well know attrocities were comitted after phase 2, but there were incidents of attacks in the period between phase 1 and phase 2 I believe. There was also a genuine real risk of potetnial attacks, that was not just an excuse, though it served that function as well.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 17:05

I do also have to say in my opinion even if there had been no attacks at all on TC between phase 1 and phase 2 I do believe that phase 2 would have gone ahead anyway. Turkey could not just sit in its positions as of phase 1 indefinately whilst negotiations went on, without massive military risk to its own troops, even if had of had the will to do so. In that sense Phase 2 happened because phase 1 was not tenable militarily in any medium or long term manner.



Both Makarios and the coupist had a long term goal of enosis, just different plans for how it should be achieved and how quickly. I think this is as fair and accurate to say as saying Turkey had a long term goal of taksim. I satnd by the statement that Turkey could never achieve taksim without the GC / greek long term aim of enosis, which both the coupists and Makarios had and persued, all be it by different means.

walkerscott


Joined: 13/08/2009
Posts: 901

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 17:45

any and all GCs can claim for loss of use and compensation for loss of property. Sometimes the compensation is far better than them trying to sell the said lost properties!



http://no-deeds-no-money.moonfruit.com/#/i-p-c/4544142510

walkerscott


Joined: 13/08/2009
Posts: 901

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 17:56

As of 26 May 2011, 1229 applications have been lodged with the Commission and 165 of them have been concluded through friendly settlements and 7 through formal hearing. The Commission has paid GBP 58,301,440.- to the applicants as compensation. Moreover, it has ruled for exchange and compensation in two cases, for restitution in one case and for restitution and compensation in five cases. In one case it has delivered a decision for restitution after the settlement of Cyprus Issue, and in one case it has ruled for partial restitution.

walkerscott


Joined: 13/08/2009
Posts: 901

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 18:01

How to apply for compensation, monthly bulletins, frequently asked questions, committee members etc can be viewed on:

http://www.northcyprusipc.org/

Rottolover



Joined: 21/06/2009
Posts: 519

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 19:42

Sixems,



It seems to me that erolz is posting some thoughtful and well-documented arguments, and your responses are in the same vein. They make a lot better reading than the euphemistic garbage continually fed to us by Campbell.



It's always seemed to me that Enosis was provocative and Taksim was a reaction to it...is it fair to consider that the moral high ground would go to the process wanting part of the island to stay Turkish, or the one wanting the whole of the island to become Greek?

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 20:14

mark message 50:



it is amazing how close are the parallels between the failed falklands-invasion

and the botched enosis-coup in cyprus



the junta in buenos aires, and the colonels in athens were both

desperate for a last throw of the dice to save their disgusting regimes



yet both gambled...and lost, mainly due to underestimating their opponents



the reason these distant events resonate today is that nationalist dreamers

still hope to put the clock back ...if they can get away with it



as regards your conspiracy theories, I can only say that if patriotism is the last

resort of the scoundrel, conspiracy theories are the final refuge of the weak



it is however no secret that the usa was in a panic throughout the cold war and

even now, not to have turkey upset, and at the time of the falklands crisis the

galtieri regime had been carefully nurtured by uncle sam for reasons of state



but unlike you, I see little surprising in this very obvious great power strategy

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 22:12

Rottolover, my view is that enosis was a natural desire for GC following the end of British rule and understandable. The problem in my view was in claiming it was the will of a single unifed cypriot people and thus an expression of the right to self determination of a unitary Cypriot people. In reality enosis actualy said there was no such thing as a cypriot people, just Greeks ,part of a unitary Greek people, who happened to live in Cyprus and some others. However presenting it as such makes it clear that TC were by the defnintions of enosis, some 'other' people and thus had in my view a seperate ane equal right to self determination.

I am also of the view that the biggest failing of the world community was the granting of 'recognition' to a rump RoC government that started with the UN resolution of 64. I believe this was done because USA / UK simply wanted to avoid nato allies being in conflict at the hight of the cold war and thus all they cared [cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 22:18

about was getting UN troops into Cyprus to avoid Turkey and Greece clashing. THe easiest and most expident means of doing this was to have a 'legitimate' government invite them in. Thus they chose to accept tacitly the rump RoC government as legitimate, for their onw self interest, despite its clear and know illegal acts, effectively 'rewarding' a GC run RoV government that was running bands of ethnic based paramilitary killers out of the interior ministry. This in my view set the die for what would occur later. Had the UN said in 64, neither side ALONE can be recognised as a legitimate government I think things would not have progressed the way they did, but that created a problem re the sending of UN troops, which needed to be invted in by a 'legitimate' government. What TC saw and learnt from this was that illegality and force can gain you what you want if it is conveient to worlds powers interests to let it happen.

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 22:33

mmmmmm; Just for you:

The First Years of the Republic (1960-1963)

1960 Cyprus - an independent republic - established on August 15, Makarios president. Initial efforts at governing under the new constitution.

1961 Disputes over certain basic articles: separate municipalities, public service and Cypriot army ratio, taxes. TCs veto tax law.

1962 Failure to agree on separate municipalities; continuing gridlock and terrorism. April, murder of two Turkish Cypriot journalists, Hikmet and Gurkhan, who advocated intercommunal cooperation.

1963 Constitutional crisis after court rulings: taxes imposed but cannot be collected; ruling against both sides on municipalities issue. Akritas Plan formed. Makarios submitted 13 points for constitutional reform to Küçük to revise the constitution; rejected by Turkey. (continues)

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 22:34

Constitutional Breakdown and Intercommunal Conflict (1963-1967)

1963 Dec 21, intercommunal violence explodes. Truce force set up with British troops, Greek & Turkish liaison officers. Ceasefire after Turkish jets buzzed Nicosia. Casualties in first ten days (known dead & missing presumed dead): TCs, 136, GCs 30.

1964 January, London Conference. British, US efforts to create NATO force. Makarios announces abrogation of treaties (then backs away); TCs want partition. Denktash summoned to Ankara, return to Cyprus barred until 1968. NATO plan rejected by Makarios. February, brutal attacks on TC civilians in Limassol. March, UNFICYP established; British troops on island seconded to UN force. National Guard put under command of Greek army general. Some 20,000 TCs flee areas where violence occurred, taking refuge in enclaves; some Turkish villages looted and destroyed. June, Turkish invasion threatened. Grivas returns to command Greek army contingent; expanded control to National Guard

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 22:37

1964 (cont.) President Johnson's letter to Inonu deterring invasion; Acheson Plan for "double enosis" proposed and rejected. August, arms & men imported by both sides. GC attack on and capture of TC villages in the Tylliria area in effort to control the coastline led to Turkish bombing of GC villages which included the use of napalm. Ceasefire arranged.

1967 Military coup in Greece; secret talks with Turkey. Grivas orders attack of TC villages; threat of Turkish invasion; recall of Grivas & thousands of excess Greek troops. Provisional TC administration created in enclaves.

1968 Makarios re-elected overwhelmingly; acknowledges that enosis is not realistic. Restrictions on TCs lifted. Intercommunal talks began.

1970 EOKA-B attempts to assassinate Makarios; Georgadjis murdered.

1971 Talks deadlocked on local autonomy issue. Secret Greek-Turkish talks. Return of Grivas; EOKA-B attacks on GC left & supporters of independence

(cont.)

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 22:40

1972 Intercommunal talks resumed and expanded

1973 Col. Papadopoulos overthrown by Ioannides in Athens

1974 Death of Grivas; Greek junta takes control of EOKA-B. Near breakthrough in talks, negotiators agreed on proposal for local autonomy. Turkish PM Ecevit statement stipulating federation; talks broken off by Clerides.

Coup, Invasions, and Partition (1974)

1974 July 15, Greek junta supports EOKA-B coup, led by Nicos Sampson, against Makarios; Makarios survives assassination attempts, flees to London; Sampson Agovernment@ takes power. July 20, Turkish military intervention. Actions, or lack of, by UK & US. Greek junta & Sampson regimes fall; Clerides becomes Acting President of Cyprus; democratic government returns to Greece. Ceasefire declared. Mid-August, Collapse of peace talks in Geneva: Second Turkish military intervention in August in which 6,000 die; Turks control of 37% of island; between 150,000 and 200,000 GC refugees take flight. Return of Makarios in autumn (co

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 22:45

As for attacks on TCs:

German site: WETPOLITIK.net

http://www.weltpolitik.net/Regionen/Europa/Zypern/Grundlagen/A%20Chronology%20of%20the%20Cyprus%20conflict.html#3 1963 November 30

President Makarios’ attempts to implement 13 constitutional changes is perceived by the Turkish Cypriots as an attempt to change the constitutionally based distribution of power This triggers violent inter-communal fighting, during which about one thousand Turkish and two hundred Greek Cypriots are killed.”

In a speech on 4th September 1962, at Panayia, Makarios actually said “Until this Turkish community forming part of the Turkish race which has been the terrible enemy of Hellenism is expelled, the duty of the heroes of EOKA can never be considered as terminated."

Article 173 of the Constitution provided that separate municipalities be established for Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots. (cont)

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 22:46

The Greek Cypriots refused to obey this provision, so the Turkish Cypriots took the matter to the Supreme Constitutional Court of Cyprus.



In February 1963 (Cyprus Mail 12.2.63) Archbishop Makarios declared on behalf of the Greek Cypriots that if the Court ruled against them they would ignore it. On 25th April 1963 the Court did rule against them and they did ignore it. The neutral President of the Court (a German citizen) resigned and the rule of law in Cyprus collapsed.



In November 1963 the Greek Cypriots went further, and demanded the abolition of no less than eight of the basic articles which had been included in the 1960 Agreement for the protection of the Turkish Cypriots, to which they naturally refused to agree. The aim was to reduce the Turkish Cypriot people to the status of a mere minority.

Christmas 1963 the Greek Cypriot militia attacked Turkish Cypriot communities across the island, and very many men, women and children were killed. (cont.)

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 22:47

On 2nd January 1964 the Daily Telegraph wrote "The Greek Cypriot community should not assume that the British military presence can or should secure them against Turkish intervention if they persecute the Turkish Cypriots. We must not be a shelter for double-crossers."



On 28th December 1963 the Daily Express carried the following report from Cyprus: "We went tonight into the sealed-off Turkish Cypriot Quarter of Nicosia in which 200 to 300 people had been slaughtered in the last five days. We were the first Western reporters there and we have seen sights too frightful to be described in print. Horror so extreme that the people seemed stunned beyond tears."



On 14th January 1964 the Daily Telegraph reported that the Turkish Cypriot inhabitants of Ayios Vassilios had been massacred on 26th December 1963, and reported their exhumation from a mass grave in the presence of the Red Cross. (cont)

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 22:50

A further massacre of Turkish Cypriots, at Limassol, was reported by The Observer on 16th February 1964, and there were many more.

On 1st January 1964 the Daily Herald reported: "When I came across the Turkish homes they were an appalling sight. Apart from the walls they just did not exist.[/b] I doubt if a napalm attack could have created more devastation. Under roofs which had caved in, I found a twisted mass of bed springs, children's cots, and grey ashes of what had once been tables, chairs and wardrobes. In the neighboring village of Ayios Vassilios I counted 16 wrecked and burned out homes. They were all Turkish Cypriot. In neither village did I find a scrap of damage to any Greek Cypriot house.”

On 31st December 1963 The Guardian reported: "It is nonsense to claim, as the Greek Cypriots do, that all casualties were caused by fighting between armed men of both sides. On Christmas Eve many Turkish Cypriot people were brutally attacked and murdered in their suburban homes, (cont)

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 22:51

including the wife and children of the head of Turkish Cypriot army medical services - allegedly by a group of forty men, many in army boots and greatcoats." The Turkish Cypriots fought back as best they could, but there were no massacres of Greek Cypriot civilians.



On 10th September 1964 the U.N. Secretary-General reported (UN doc. S/5950): "UNFICYP carried out a detailed survey of all damage to properties throughout the island during the disturbances,..........it shows that in 109 villages, most of them Turkish Cypriot or mixed villages, 527 houses have been destroyed while 2,000 others have suffered damage from looting. In Ktima 38 houses and shops have been destroyed totally and 122 partially. In Orphomita suburb of Nicosia, 50 houses have been totally destroyed while a further 250 have been partially destroyed there and in adjacent suburbs" (cont)

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 22:53

Professor Ernst Forsthoff, the neutral President of the Supreme Constitutional Court of Cyprus in an interview with the UPI press agency on 30th December 1963 said: "All this happened because Makarios wanted to remove all constitutional rights from the Turkish Cypriots."



In his book "The Way the Wind Blows" former British Prime Minister, Sir Alec Douglas-Home said "I was convinced of the view that if Archbishop Makarios could not bring himself to treat the Turkish Cypriots as human beings he was inviting the invasion and partition of the island."



More than 300 Turkish Cypriots are still missing without trace from the massacres of 1964. These dreadful events were not the responsibility of "the Greek Colonels" (who did not take power in Greece until much later) or an unrepresentative handful of Greek Cypriot extremists. The persecution of the Turkish Cypriots was an act of policy on the part of the Greek Cypriot political and religious leadership!

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 22:55

The U.K. House of Commons Select Committee found that, "There is little doubt that much of the violence which the Turkish Cypriots claim led to the total or partial destruction of 103 Turkish villages and the displacement of about a quarter of the total Turkish Cypriot population, was either directly inspired by, or certainly connived at, by the Greek Cypriot leadership itself".

In the village of Tokhni on 14th August 1974 all the Turkish Cypriot men between the ages of 13 to 74, except for eighteen who managed to escape, were taken away and shot (Times, Guardian, 21st August)

In Zyyi on the same day all the Turkish Cypriot men aged between 19 and 38 were taken away by Greek Cypriots and were never seen again. On the same day Greek Cypriots opened fire in the Turkish Cypriot neighbourhood of Paphos killing men, women and children indiscriminately. (cont)

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 22:56

On 23rd July 1974 the Washington Post reported "In a Greek raid on a small Turkish village near Limassol 36 people out of a population of 200 were killed.

The Greeks said that they had been given orders to kill the inhabitants of the Turkish villages before the Turkish forces arrived." (also Times, Guardian, 23rd July 1974).

On 24th July 1974 France Soir reported: "The Greeks burned Turkish mosques and set fire to Turkish homes in the villages around Famagusta. Defenceless Turkish villagers who have no weapons live in an atmosphere of terror and they evacuate their homes and go and live in tents in the forests. The Greeks' actions are a shame to humanity."

The German newspaper Die Zeit wrote on 30 August 1974: “the massacre of Turkish Cypriots in Paphos and Famagusta is the proof of how justified the Turks were to undertaken their (August) intervention.”

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 22:59

"Turkiye intervened to protect the lives and property of the Turkish Cypriots, and to its credit it has done just that. In the 12 years since, there have been no killings and no massacres" Lord Willis (Lab.) House of Lords 17th December 1986 (Hansard, col. 223).

On 12th March 1977 Makarios had declared "In the name of ENOSIS that Cyprus has been destroyed."

On Independence Day 1985 the Greek Cypriot Daily Simerini lamented as follows: "We believed that we are the centre of the Earth. We thought that we, small and insignificant as we are, would be capable of exercising policy on an intercontinental plane. But also above all we underestimated the Turks. The unstable and fickle policy of our leaders has brought us to the brink of total disaster."

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 23:01

its sad/ funny that when the facts are laid down as big0z has done , no one replies ? good posts big0z .

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 23:01

ON MISSING PERSONS On 17th April 1991 Ambassador Nelson Ledsky testified before the US Senate Foreign Relations Committee that "Most of the missing persons disappeared in the first days of July 1974 (ie before the Turkish intervention). Many killed on the Greek side were killed by Greek Cypriots and in fighting between supporters of Makarios and Sampson."

On 19th July 1974, before the Turkish army landed, Archbishop Makarios told the UN Security Council "I do not yet know the details of the Cyprus crisis caused by the Greek military regime. I am afraid that the number of losses is great... I considered the danger from Turkiye lesser than the danger from Greek army officers."

The Greek newspaper TA NEA published an interview on 28th February 1976 with Father Papatsestos, the Greek Orthodox priest in charge of the Nicosia cemetery. (cont)

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 23:01

On 19th July 1974, before the Turkish army landed, Archbishop Makarios told the UN Security Council "I do not yet know the details of the Cyprus crisis caused by the Greek military regime. I am afraid that the number of losses is great... I considered the danger from Turkiye lesser than the danger from Greek army officers."

The Greek newspaper TA NEA published an interview on 28th February 1976 with Father Papatsestos, the Greek Orthodox priest in charge of the Nicosia cemetery. He recounted the events of 17th July 1974 when Greek officers required him to bury truckloads of Greek Cypriots in mass graves, together with one young Greek Cypriot whom they buried alive, and ten dead Turkish Cypriots. This one priest counted at least 127 bodies brought to him, and there must have been many similar incidents throughout the island.

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 23:04

ADDENDUM to post 75: The Greek newspaper TA NEA published an interview on 28th February 1976 with Father Papatsestos, the Greek Orthodox priest in charge of the Nicosia cemetery. He recounted the events of 17th July 1974 when Greek officers required him to bury truckloads of Greek Cypriots in mass graves, together with one young Greek Cypriot whom they buried alive, and ten dead Turkish Cypriots. This one priest counted at least 127 bodies brought to him, and there must have been many similar incidents throughout the island.

On 23rd July 1974 The Times reported: " a production Director from Dublin said he had seen bodies being buried in a mass grave near Paphos after last Monday's coup. People were told by Makarios to lay down their guns and were shot out of hand by the National Guard, he said."

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 23:05

On 23rd July 1974 The Times reported "Fears that many supporters of Archbishop Makarios may have been massacred since last week's coup were expressed in London yesterday, by an American-born woman whose husband is now on top of EOKA-B's wanted list. She was told that about a hundred members of the Presidential Palace guard had been killed after they laid down their arms."

On 6th November 1974 TA NEA reported the erasure of dates from the graves of Greek Cypriots killed in these five days in order to blame their deaths on the subsequent Turkish military action.



In an article on 28th February 1976 in the Greek Cypriot press Father Papatsestos said: It is a rather hard thing to say, but it is true that the Turkish intervention saved us from a merciless internecine war.The Sampson regime had prepared a list of all Makarios supporters, and they would have slaughtered them all." Many of the people saved by Turkiye are members of the present Greek Cypriot leadership.

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 23:06

Christmas 1963 when, as noted before, the Greek Cypriots made a violent attack upon the Turkish Cypriot population. This was not war, but a premeditated attack upon defenceless woman, children and old men. These attacks were repeated in 1967 and again in 1974.

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 23:08

In July 1991 the following motion was tabled in the UK House of Commons:

"This House recalls that when independence was granted to Cyprus in 1960, sovereignty was transferred to the Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots jointly as political equals; recalls that the 1960 Constitution broke down in 1963 and is now defunct; notes that the U.N Secretary General has stated that the relationship between the two communities in Cyprus is not one of majority and minority but one of equals; further notes that UN Security Council Resolution 649 calls upon the two peoples of Cyprus to co-operate on an equal footing; believes that the Greek Cypriot side's reluctance to recognise the equal political status of the Turkish Cypriot side is obstructing the way to a federal solution since federations can be formed only between political equals;

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
26/05/2011 23:16

and therefore calls upon Her Majesty's Government to treat the two peoples of Cyprus and their respective leaders on a basis of complete equality without any further delay."



The above being the case, I have two questions for MMMMMM!

1. Can you now tell us about a single incident between 1960 (declaration of the republic) and 1974, where TCs had attacked a Greek village, and/or massacred its inhabitants? (Please do not refer to Turkish jets bombarding Koccina to save the lives of surrounding TC villages from thousands of attacking EOKA men recruited by Grivas - two of my elder brothers were there!)

2. What do you think of the arrest of Ratko Mladic?

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
27/05/2011 08:28

rowlo message 74:



impressive posts I agree ...but who is capable of a reply?

perhaps it's true some of really are "lacking in education"

as zoots suggested earlier



big oz message 81:



I hope I do him no injustice but:

by invoking the wrath of mmmmmm you are likely to get

a conspiracy-based reply, to avoid answering your points

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
27/05/2011 10:08

Big oz. Now we wait for Zoots, or whatever, and his friends, to say that what you have writen is a pack of lies.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
27/05/2011 11:08

I'm on the road at the mo.. I've seen Erolz and bigOz have posted responses and over the weekend I'll look at 'em and respond..



To the impatient posters ...Rotto seems to understand... It took bigOz a couple of days to respond.. yet I'm expected to drop everything on a week day - before a bank holiday and respond overnight ?!!! ;)

proger1



Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 2919

Message Posted:
27/05/2011 12:40

Perhaps you could take it as a compliment in a way Mark. As andre stated, who is capable of a reply, I am certain that you are one person who is without it being overly biased as some of the, shall we say, slightly GC sympathetic posters.

Erolz and BigOz have put some very good statements which I have to say especially with Erolz personal opinions and other statements do not come over as biased.

I can only speak for myself when I say that it is not only enlightening but enjoyable to read statements of fact (albeit, for as long as it takes for someone to find a counter story and deny the truth of the above statements) or unbiased opinion.

I really doubt if any of the political powers involved in the disputes at the moment are overly concerned bu the past, they are probably concentrating in thier futures which is the issue as I see it, it is however very interesting to fill in the gaps of the basics I have been told on both sides of the customs line (just for you Mark )

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
27/05/2011 14:03

All this has been put to these zombies many times before, they call it Turkish propaganda. As for on the spot international journalists, they are all part of a conspiracy, and made it all up. From ancient Troy to the present day Greeks, and their cohorts, have perfected lying as an art form. Mmm has bemused me over the years, I have never worked out his motivation. However, he too can twist a documented fact, or an eyewitness account, into something far from the truth. As for international politicians, this latest one from Australia would probably not be able to point to Cyprus on a map, let alone listen to both sides, before shooting off his mouth. The roc propaganda machine has a long arm.

I only enter these threads now to let new people know where these sleaze-bags like zoots are coming from.

brother



Joined: 29/01/2010
Posts: 446

Message Posted:
27/05/2011 14:31

Msg 85 & 86 will show any casual reader that these types of discussions always have a common thread:

There are the same old trolls who manage to make some people beholden to them for a response.



It's a shame that for the casual reader, who may find the thread title interesting, will invariably find the same sequence of messages in the given thread.



It is a mystery as to why any TC should even think of delivering proof in what is akin to a court of trolls.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
27/05/2011 14:35

Akin to a court of trolls - I like that.

proger1



Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 2919

Message Posted:
27/05/2011 14:44

brother, you seem to have miss read my comment all together but that is allright, you arent me and therefore can't fully comprehend my thoughts as I wrote them down.

Let me try to explain my intensions in basic terms.

Thank you Erolz and BigOz for explaining things I did not know in a way that is not disruptive as is the usual comments on here.

Mark, should you choose to answer the comments please try and stay unbiased as both Erolz and BigOz appear to have attempted to do, as an interested reader I would like to see other information should it exist to get an overall understanding of the country I choose to live in. The majority of TC friends I have would rather not discuss what they know about the history of the island.

Should you decide not to respond to my comment brother, I will be in no way upset, after all isn't it unwise to cross a bridge with a troll under it.

brother



Joined: 29/01/2010
Posts: 446

Message Posted:
27/05/2011 15:10

Msg.89: Chill I think you have misread my message - I agree with your message #85. My "gasp" was in response to the overall thread.

proger1



Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 2919

Message Posted:
27/05/2011 15:15

OK, my bad.

I apologise, it appears I didn't follow the context of your comment.



As for the troll and bridge thing, it was attempted humour, obviously failed again.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
27/05/2011 16:22

Hi Paul,



when I do get peace - at the close of biz - I'll read ErolZ and bigOz' contributions..



As to 'bias'... I must be doing something right as many GCs think I'm a 'Turk Lover' - as I ventured to TR / 'the north' often ;)

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
27/05/2011 23:43

My response to ErolZ / bigOz



part 1



So, I've read through ErolZ clips from the cy-forum and scanned bigOz's cut and pastes from



http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/chronology.html



ErolZ - I like the cut of bananiot's jib..



bigOz - let's start at 1915:



>>Offer of Cyprus ( from UK ) to Greece turned down ! ( an attempt to get GR to join WWI - the Ottoman's had thrown in their lot with the Germans ..<< This won't be the first time CY is a bargaining chip..



>>1923: Lausanne Treaty; annexation recognized, and all claims to the island renounced. Turkish Cypriot (TC) delegation to Ankara to press for return of island to Turkey. <<



So TC's wanted 'enosis' with Turkey !



cont..

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
27/05/2011 23:47

>>1954 British move of joint HQ of Mideast Forces from Suez to Cyprus; "never" statement from Hopkinson with regard to self-determination. In July, attempt to put Cyprus question before UN, defeated by Anglo-Turkish cooperation. In August, TCs hold mass meeting in Nicosia, and formation of "Cyprus is Turkish Committee, in Ankara, encouraged by PM Menderes.<<



Yes there was still a call or enosis from GCs and Greece was campaigning for this at the UN - the UK had got a largely disinterested Turkey on board as they wanted to keep the bases ..divide and rule ?



>>1955 Armed violence against British begun by Grivas & EOKA. Küçük renames National Union Party as Cyprus is Turkish Party. London Conference: Britain invited Greece & Turkey to discuss problems, including Cyprus. Conference ended without agreement. Riots orchestrated in Istanbul. Gov. Harding cracks down on EOKA.<<



As we can see Turkey is now actively creating polarisation !

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
27/05/2011 23:51

What we see is that neither Enosis or some TCs wanting to be part of TR are 'new' - and that the UK isn't too keen to give CY independence or even self-determination - at a time when other former colonies are easily gaining independence... Cypriots are being played - pawns if you like - in a bigger picture..:(



>>1956 Negotiations for self-government. Makarios deported. Violence & repression intensifies. EOKA targets police, GCs as well as British murdered. GCs in police replaced by TCs; some TCs are casualties of EOKA terrorism. Radcliffe Plan for self-governance rejected; first official reference to partition.



1957 Bombing kills one TC, wounding three; TCs retaliated. TC riots in Nicosia against British forces; seven TCs killed. Trade unions joint appeal for calm. EOKA cease fire, release of Makarios to Athens. TC demand for "taksim"; rise of TMT. Demand for Turkish army base. Governor Foot pursues new policy of conciliation. <<

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
27/05/2011 23:55

>>1958 Plan for self-government postponed sovereignty issue; rejected by Turkey. TCs riot for partition. EOKA boycott of British, end of year-long ceasefire. Turkish Cypriot PIO office bombed, EOKA blamed (later established that TC extremists responsible). TC violence against GCs in Nicosia, 8 GCs killed near Guenyeli. MacMillan plan involving Greece & Turkey; some implementation begun. EOKA targets TCs; villages burned. Intercommunal ceasefire. Makarios announced he would agree to guaranteed independence.<<



The Brits must be 'pleased' .. Cypriots now desperately polarised.. and if they're not - then some GCs and TCs with their own agendas ( Enosis -union [ with Greece] / Taksim -division ) not above creating atrocities to stir up hatred :(



Do most of us see where this was going ? .... playing the blame game is a MUG's GAME...

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
27/05/2011 23:56

BigOz,



responses to your posts and questions to follow:



Wifey has cooked a late meal.. ;)

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
28/05/2011 00:13

MM I do not see myself as playing the blame game. I do not say that any one party was solely to blame or any one party was solely innocent. I do beleive that pre 74 the GC community bears a greater responsibility for the events that transpired, on the simple basis that I believe that had a greater ability through their own actions alone to avert the disasters that befell cyprus than the TC community did. Post 74 obviously the situation was different.

For me this is not about blame, but about understanding how we came to be where we are now and how we can move forward to a better future for all cypriots. I do not believe we can do that but just by saying 'that was all in the past, the only problems that exist today are the result of 74 and all we need to do is reverse those and all will be fine'.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
28/05/2011 00:34

PS Bannaniot is an inspriation and a true Cypriot an in my view someone we (Cypriots) can all learn from. I am honoured and proud to know him in real life and call him friend. If you think you or zoots are attacked for expressing unpopular or unwanted views, you should see some of the attacks he suffers from certain GC on cyprus-forum.

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
28/05/2011 00:47

mmmmmm: Afiyet olsun! I hope you enjoy the food

I am not really too concerned about the pre Republic days. At one time TC and GC tax payers in Cyprus rebelled jointly against the Ottoman Empire! I also have to agree with the divide and rule policy of the British Empire that really put fire and gunpowder together in Cyprus during the late 50s. But that is something, the British never deny and actually admit (to their credit).

What I object to is the level of ignorance about the attacks and atrocities, the economic, social and travel embargoes etc against the TCs that reduced my society to living in enclaves no bigger than downtown ghettos. Add to that systematic threats and attacks by EOKA-B, and you can understand what fears my age group lived through during their childhood. On the other hand, the Greek side have created a new generation of people, who sincerely believe that the Cyprus problem had started in 1974!

Even Makarios admitted and blamed his own for what happened! Con

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
28/05/2011 01:05

The truth is: due to bad education, teaching incorrect/untrue history, many down South are still living in denial! THAT IS DANGEROUS! One should learn from their mistakes and that can only be done if one is not in denial of the truth.

Whilst Greece and GCs are 100% behind every Armenian or Kurdish protest and/or violence - including the strong Greek lobby in USA, who keep pressing Turkey for an apology to what they (allegedly) did to Armenians, WHEN is ROC going to apologize to TCs for carrying out systematic ethnic cleansing against the TC population during 1963-1967 period? Where did TCs ever attack a GC village and erased it from the map or killed the innocent women and children together with the old?

If TMT were half as bad as the EOKA-B animals, why did they not retaliate the same way in kind? TMT (of which my father was an active member) was created in response to ENOSIS demands by the GCs, just like Kücük's party, and TAKSIM demands that followed!

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
28/05/2011 02:34

BigOz as much as I sympathise with what you are saying I do have to offer an alternate view on some of your points above. Both sides suffer from an inability to see and empathise with the other and that is passed down through generations on both sides. We too need to learn from our mistakes as well. We need to accept for example the dgree to which the 60's agreements were unfair in our favour and forced upon the GC leadership against their will. We need to accept that there were forces within Turkey and the TC community that wanted a break down of consitutional order and inter communal violence as a means of achieving taksim. We need to accept that there were TC extremists that killed innocent GC. We need to accept that despite the injustices done to our community what happened to those GC forced from their homes as a result of 74 and the enforced partition of cyprus by force of arms was not a 'solution' but one more injustice inflicted on ordinary Cypriots. [cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
28/05/2011 02:46

I believe that both EOKA (including EOKA A, 'the orginasation' and even, to lesser degree, EOKA B) and TMT contained many ordinary honorable people who, however misguided, believed that they were doing what was necesary for their people, their peoples rights, freedom,honor and protection. Just as I believe both also contained people that were little more than violent thugs for whom these groups represented an opportunity to indulge their personal desires for power and thuggery whilst being able to be immune from prosecution for such acts.

We have to accept that TC / Turkey did and have 'erased' GC villages from the map, in terms of GC living there as they had done for generations before and even the names of those villages as a result of the events of 74 and in the process innocents were killed and subjected to horrednous acts.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
28/05/2011 12:43

Guys, you are wasting your time debating the content of what happened. You need to look beyond the content to the overall structure. Erolz is closest to understanding the structure.



The 'Terrible dance of power' can be seen in virtually every conflict around the world.



The group on top, normally the largest group have a mission. This could be political, religious etc (enosis). The top group normally control most of the resources. Standing in the way of the mission is the bottom group.



The top group define themselves as 'we' and define the others as 'them'. The 'them' is objectified, which turns them in to an inferior race, one that is dirty and unclean, even evil.



Rules are established to make things better for the 'we' and tougher for the 'them'



The 'them' protest, often apologetically. The 'we' may compromise but it is done so begrudgingly. Eventually the 'we' do terrible things to the 'them' and can justify this because the 'them' is preventing the mission and

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
28/05/2011 12:45

of course they are inferior and evil.



Pacifists within the ‘we’ group object to the treatment of the ‘them’ but soon the pacifists are defined as the 'them’ and are also treated harshly. The mantra is ‘you are either with us or you are against us’.



Before long the 'them’ develops a radical group and develops their own mission, which is often a counter response to the 'we’ group. Again this can be religious, political etc (Taksim)



The 'them’ group can now do terrible things to the 'we’ group because the 'we’ group are objectified and are seen as inferior, dirty, unclean and even evil.



Pacifists within the 'them’ group form, but they are told 'you are either with us or you are against us’ and are treated harshly.



The tension escalates and the terrible dance of power goes on, with both groups calling on the wider system to support their causes (Greece and Turkey, Christians and Muslims, Capitalists and communists)

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
28/05/2011 12:46

And the wider system is only too happy to join the dance because they have their own causes to fulfil

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
28/05/2011 13:04

Of course, it is the TC’s fault; if they did not exist, the GC’s would not have had to murder them. Then they committed the cardinal sin of not lining up in the streets, with heads bowed, waiting for the execution squads.

Big oz, all your efforts to reason with these people are a waste of your time. Every word you have written on this thread has been submitted repeatedly over the years and repeatedly denied by the GC’s. Journalists, eyewitness accounts and British soldiers, reports, all of whom were here at the time, which is more than can be said of zoots and co, all point the finger and the GC’s. The only real truth is if you tell lies often and loudly enough you will eventually smother that truth.

Do the GC’s want a fair solution today, of course they don’t. Just two of their demands are that all GC’s are allowed back to the North, and that the TC’s must never exceed 20% of the population of Cyprus ( I wonder how they intend to enforce this?)

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
28/05/2011 13:08

We have to accept that TC / Turkey did and have 'erased' GC villages from the map, in terms of GC living there as they had done for generations before and even the names of those villages as a result of the events of 74 and in the process innocents were killed and subjected to horrendous acts.



Erolz. I hope you mean changed the names rather than burn them to the ground.

As for - in the process innocents were killed and subjected to horrendous acts – I assume you mean during the war, not as a deliberate act of genocide.

If you want to hear about horrendous acts, which surprises me as I assumed you were a TC, just ask the people in Ozankoy, who lived through those terrible times.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
28/05/2011 13:24

ilovecyprus I understand your general 'structure' and do not particularly diasagree with it. For me trying to understand the details of the Cyprus problem is a necessary part of attempting to find ways that 'them' and 'us' can become a real 'we', for all our and future generations benefit. To do this understanding what 'they' did and why and what 'we' did and why is necessary.

Troodo the point I am making is we as TC need to accept that there were villages in the North that were populated by GC for generations that today no longer have a single GC living in them. In many ways they can be said to have been 'erased' from the map as far as having been GC villages and this was done by force of arms.

I think horrendous acts were committed by elements in both communites against the other as well as during the events of 74. I also think the use of the word 'genoicde' is grossly misued in the Cyprus context. It does not aid imo understanding of what actualy happened but hinders it.

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
28/05/2011 13:47

Musin,

Did you use a Greek Cypriot Lawyer, if you did, which one was it and were the charges reasonable?

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
28/05/2011 13:49

msge 109



Erolz



Therapy is pretty straightforward. All you have to do is admit your part in the process, neutralise your negative response, forgive yourself and others and most importantly learn from the process. Focusing on the structure, not the content makes this a whole lot easier and can help prevent problems in the future.



Once you have done this, focusing on the past is a complete waste of time because you just dredge up the shit.



I am not saying that finding a viable future is easy, because if it were easy it would have been solved by now. The challenge is that both the North and South have developed their own separate 'We', and whilst they are separated and both have their safe haven they do not clash.



Creating an island wide 'we' where both the TC's and GC's see themselves as one big 'We' is perhaps a step too far, but I respect your optimism and work in trying to make this happen.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
28/05/2011 13:54

ps Have you also noticed the same dance now taking place in North Cyprus?



The 'We' TC's with the 'Them' Turkish settlers

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
28/05/2011 13:58

Really erolz? I would have thought that trying to remove an ethnic minority from your land by brute force was nothing less than genocide. Or was it as the GC’s claimed, internal strife. Perhaps D Bowers, excepted as a world expert, got it wrong when he declared that the actions of the GC’s against the TC’s ticked all the boxes for genocide. War is one thing, but to attack your own citizens in a time of so called peace, is indefensible.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
28/05/2011 14:13

Ilovecyprus.

If both sides had been treated equally over the years perhaps you would have a valid point, but they were not, and it still goes on. If you hit a dog over the head enough times, what will it do; it either bites you or becomes submissive. Give that same dog a bone and a pat on the head, and it will be your friend. The GC’s hope that the stick will work, which shows how dedicated to a solution they truly are, but, I forget, they love their TC brothers.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
28/05/2011 14:21

Is J.D. Bowers, the international authority and respected American professor of genocide studies at Northern Illinois University, correct when he openly confirms that Greek Cypriots and EOKA-B, under the leadership of Nikos Sampson, were guilty of the genocide of Turkish Cypriots within the 1963 United Nations definition of “genocide”? Did the Akritas and Ifestos 1974 plans not spell out the means and methodology for that genocide?

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
28/05/2011 14:24

msge 114



That's just the point Troodo. The larger group rarely treat the smaller group fairly. In the UK we have stringent racial legislation to ensure the minorites are treated as equals. If we did not have this law then you can be sure that the minorities would be attacked regularly. In fact if the attacks were tolerated and endorsed you can be sure that there would not be many minorities in Great Britain.



If the GC's and TC's ever come together they are going to have to impose very similar laws to the UK and to administer that law powerfully and rigorously.



I am afraid to say that until humans dissolve their ego constructs there always be a 'we' and 'them' and subsequent problems.



The only way forward is mindfulness and shadow work.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
28/05/2011 15:23

If the GC's and TC's ever come together they are going to have to impose very similar laws to the UK and to administer that law powerfully and rigorously.



Who's going to do that then, the central government dominated by the GC's?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
28/05/2011 16:26

Troodo msg 114 I am aware of Lord Maginnis claim about what J.D. Bowers has said , which you reproduce above. However I have tried in the past to locate where J.D.Bowers said these things and have been unable to find them. That does not mean he did not say them of course.

In any case I refute the argument that the Akritas plan is a plan for genocide. One only has to read it to see that this is just not the case. For me calling it such just undermines what it really was and actualy weakens the legitimate case of TC in that period. The Ifestos plans were a plan for genoicde, but the truth is their providence is no where near as clear as the Akritas plan. They were alledgedly plans to be implemented by the Sampson coupist following a sucsessful coup, but the coup was not sucsessful and as far as they existed they were never implemented, unlike the Akritas plan. To refer only to the iphestos plan dimishes understanding of the real issues imo. It is all to easy [cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
28/05/2011 16:30

to portay them as the plans of an extremist madman, supported by a facist dictatorship in greece and shadowy international secret service agencies, with little or no support from the GC community at large. In reality the problems suffered from TC were not the result of 'a few extremist madmen', but deepely ingrained in even moderate GC leaders and ordinary GC population. So the fopcus on 'genoicde' to me misleads and diverts from understanding of real and in reality much more serious issues, in terms of how they actualy effected TC in the period 63-74.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
28/05/2011 17:54

erolz,



there are all the ingredients in the history of cyprus

...to have events happen exactly as they did



at this moment greece is free of dictatorship,

but the desperate measures under review in the halls

of europe are "supposed" to keep things that way



it's a cop-out, to paint in shadow string-pullers:

reminds me of a book about the moon landings,

the bloke had drawn strings onto a photo and said

it "proved" the landings and low gravity were fake



it is quite correct that the gc silent majority went along

with the extremists' agenda but a better way of looking

at it is the extremists tried to present themselves as

the "vanguard" of their people



perhaps the value of endlessly picking the past to pieces

is an apology for an unsatisfactory present?

then again, as josef goebbels famously once claimed

"those who describe the past own the future"



and we should beware gc fans bearing gifts of historical

tales of woe: they are really no more impartial th

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
28/05/2011 17:55

than me or anyone else on this forum

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
29/05/2011 02:06

erolz;

I do understand and respect most of the points you made (I do disagree with some though) BUT, I have been there... The equation for me became a lot more simple many years later;

The Greek leadership, including AKEL members and Makarios were all EOKA symphatizers/supporters pre 1963. The GC leadership had an agenda of clearing the TCs come what may. Probably encouraged by the fact that Turkey - being a puppet of USA at the time, were in no position to interfere with anything that went on in Cyprus.

Makarios carried on supporting EOKA-B and allowed Grivas (perpetuator of EOKA B) carry out his attacks against helpless TC villages. He was even the head of National Guard for a while! THE ONLY REASON MAKARIOS AGREED TO A REPUPLIC IN CONTRAST TO UNION WITH GREECE was because at the time, he was threatened of exposure by the British Intelligence who than had hard evidence about him having homosexual relationship with some young guy at the church. (cont)

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
29/05/2011 02:17

I do not agree with your comments implying acts of violence against each other by the TCs and GCs, being on similar levels! I dare anyone to tell me of a single event when any TC forceattacked a GC village and carried out the atrocities EOKA did against our people! As someone who had lived through those horrible events, I will object to anyone equating TMT with EOKA-B or acts of violence by the same. WE were always on the defense, and all our efforts were focused on not becoming extinct on our land. Whether that involved calling for Taksim or asking for Turkiye's support is totally irrelevant. You must understand, for the TCs it was the last line of defense and the only way out against the strong ENOSIS demands by the GCs and their leadership at the time. TMT did not make it their business going round attacking GC villages and murdering the occupants - if you know of an instance, then please share it with us.

But the above is not the line of argument I follow anyway (cont.)

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
29/05/2011 02:34

What I always said and now say, is: Anyone who thinks the GCs and TCs can just open up all borders and live with each other in peace as citizens of of a single Republic overnight, is a fool! One must be capable of distinguishing what we desire ideally and what is practically possible at the moment

As long as there are EOKA-B supporters/sympathizers still existing on the other side, the proposition is impossible. As long as the GC leadership do not change their education program to teach their students true events that had lead to 1974 intervention AND stop teaching that the whole Cyprus problem had started in 1974 - I see no hope of living together. Because, false or twisted historic facts as such will only generate more support for EOKA-B. And the Church???

Only after at least 10 years or so of an educational revolution (on both sides) might remedy the situation. Until then ideals will be just ideals and nothing more. Remember it only takes one small fly to spoil a potful of broth

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
29/05/2011 03:07

BigOz;

My view is that the GC had an agenda of stopping the TC from being able to block their aspiration for enosis. For the most extreme elements of GC community the means of doing this was to simply remove (kill) or drive all TC from Cyprus. However less extreme elements, wjo wanted enosis as much or more, understood clearly that such acts would actualy undermine their objective of stopping TC from being able to block enosis, not help it and devised much more subtle plans for how to remove the TC communites legal rights under the 60's agreements without their consent, as seen in the Akritas plan. THe Akritas plan was a plan to illegaly remove TC rights, against their will and against accepted legality and to get away with it. It sought to use decpetion and deciet externally and where necessary illegal force agaist TC, but it recognised that such use of force could also be counter productive to its aims.

[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
29/05/2011 03:09

If I implied that there was a parity of violence comitted by TC and GC against each other in this period , then such was not my intent at all. Absolutley it was the TC who sufferd by far the most from the inter communal violence in the period 63-68, in absolute terms and even more in relation to their relative population sizes. That is beyond any doubt. However even though this is true we can not ignore the fact that innocent GC were killed by TC in this period, even though in vastly less number than the other way round.There were also very rare incidents where in the very few areas where TC did have sufficent force they projected that force against GC villages. They did not masacre or even kill any GC, but they did for example fire into villages like Karmi. Almost certainly this was done as a means to relieve pressure on TC villages where they did not have sufficent force to stop GC attacks directly, but such things did, rarely, occur.

[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
29/05/2011 03:11

I also have to say I am humble in expressing my views as someone who did NOT live through this most terrible period for the TC community in their own homeland of Cyprus when compared to someone like yourself who did, even if like so much in a text only medium, that does not come accross clearly in what I write. It might not be in my words but it is in my 'heart' so to speak. I also agree that there in no direct route from where we are today to a theoretical ideal of a unitary Cyprus where it really does not matter if you are TC or GC, politicaly or in reality. The only way from here to there is via some intermidary phase and indeed one key element of how we get from here to there is how we educate our children.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
29/05/2011 03:14

PS BigOz , if you get a chance please email me directly - erolz@cream.org

Rottolover



Joined: 21/06/2009
Posts: 519

Message Posted:
29/05/2011 06:57

BigOz and erolz, thank you both for your posts on this subject. It goes to the heart of the Cyprus problem, and it's great to be able to read the thoughts of two such learned and genuine people. Your posts are of real quality, and I, as a total outsider who chose the north to live after having a good hard look at both sides, appreciate them very much.



Please keep it up.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
29/05/2011 07:00

BigOz, Erolz

And yet GC sympathisers like Zoots will insist that he knows the heart and soul of the TCs and the majority want only for Turkey to vacate, removing their settlers and re-unification of the island will ensue peacefully and that the island will magically be as one again!

It should be blatantly obvious to anyone with an ounce of common sense that this simply can not be.

As you both point out, education to enlighten the populace who have been fed a very one-sided view of the period leading up to 1974 is the only way to untangle the web of disinformation that serves only to prop-up the status quo. It is very unfortunate that the propaganda machine has been very successful in portraying the intervention in the way it has and glossing over the events, or in most cases outright denial of events that caused the whole thing to kick off.

There are signs that times are changing and it seems Annan, a missed opportunity, may have been the south's best chance.

cont...

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
29/05/2011 07:09

By all accounts, the current talks seem doomed by entrenchment over property which actually is ordained by the insistence that the GCs were the 'wounded party' in all this, that they alone were, and remain, the 'refugees' and that Turkey was and is the aggressor without justification.

The real problem appears to be that those with blood on their hands and their offspring hold positions with clout in the south and can not have the truth to be known or taught in schools as it makes them out to be liars.

A Truth and Reconciliation Tribunal might be a short-cut worth exploration, otherwise I can't see a way forward other than two nations under one hat. As it is, two more generations will need to pass.

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
29/05/2011 10:15

Erolz;

I am in complete agreement with everything you state in your recent posts - sorry if I got the wrong message before You clearly have a good understanding of the historic, economic and social problems of our people - if only half of our so called pocket filling politicians would know the same... I shall email you soon.

Of course many GCs now would love to share the island and power with the TCs - providing Turkey is out first (?). But they must realize, the reason TCs are disappearing to be replaced by others is all their own making! The trade, transport, sports, tourism, trade and many socio-cultural embargoes over the decades have forced TCs to become very dependent on mainland Turkey's resources.

For almost 5 years, I argued with many illiterate and EOKA supporting crowd in Cyprus-Forum (South), warning them, it would eventually come to this, to no avail. Many times, they failed to argue otherwise against points raised, calling them pack of lies. (cont)

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
29/05/2011 10:42

(cont.)

Bananiot is an exceptional MAN, who many times argued the very same points raised, and is one of the few GCs who really understand what has been happening in Cyprus over the past 100 years - he has my utmost respect.



Groucho; It is great to see someone living here (from abroad) and appreciating the facts surrounding the problem. You are absolutely right in saying "two more generations will need to pass...". I think the GCs are slowly realizing this, and there are even moves to change some of what is being taught at schools. If that is the case, then at least it is one major move in the right direction. But as Erolz also supports, the same has to happen on both sides - of course we have to remember the evil done to avoid repetition, but you cannot remember evil acts to perpetuate hatred, that may inevitably end up in more evil deeds in kind. For a start, the GCs should demolish all Grivas' statues in South and declare him a fascist tyrant that he was. Can they do it now???

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
29/05/2011 11:05

bigOz,erolz;



Both of your coments regarding this subject have been read with great interest,to the point that I had been sitting in front of my pc and constantly re-freshing it.

However,all the while everyone is busy arguing about what took place,who did what to who in Cyprus,the northern part(TRNC) of the island is being handed over to Turkey,slowly but surely!

I was 10 years of age when I stood next to my dad and watched him shooting(aiming to kilkl)at his 'friends' in Tahtakala,8 years of age when GC soldiers stopped us on the way back from yenagra (my mums birth place),with all of us in the car and took my dad away,only to be seen 4 days later,almost battered to death...............and the list could go on......

Our people has been suffering the most since the conflict............with no light to be seen at the end of the tunnel,yet.

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
29/05/2011 14:25

The main issue here is the we were all miss lead and misinform here is a quote from Martins Packard ''getting it wrong'' :



''I received numerous reports of involvement by Greek Cypriot policemen in hostage-taking and summary killings. No suggestion that this happening was given by any Greek source either to the Greek Cypriot public or to their moderate leaders. I was once shown a digest of police reports delivered to Makarios, covering events of which I had personal knowledge, in which every incident had been either whitewashed or reversed so as to show the Turkish Cypriots as the instigators of violence. Similarly, Kutchuk showed me reports he had received from Turkish Cypriot villages for which I had responsibility that gave a wholly exaggerated or distorted picture of events, suggesting a massive persecution by the Greek Cypriots that had never in fact occurred.''

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
29/05/2011 16:25

message 135:



...after all in war "the first casualty is truth"



thank goodness that cyprus is now at peace

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
29/05/2011 16:45

Tracer I have recently read Martin Packards book and found it very interesting. It certainly offers some aytpical insights into some of the players, most noticably Nicos Sampson. I do feel however that there is a certain nievety that runs through it. Mr Packard was only in Cyprus for a few months and though they were a tumultous few months and he achieved many things in that time, I do feel he was too trusting of some of the GC players, like Tassos Papadoloplus and especially Yiorardis and maybe Kutuck too. I think to a certain degree he was being 'played' by these people and I find it hard to believe that their level of ignorance of some of things they claimed to ignorant were really the case. Having said that certainly an important book for anyone interested in that period. I bought an online copy in pdf format for around 5 pounds.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
29/05/2011 16:49

One other thing that struck me from reading the book that I was not previous so aware of was the degree to which the press played such a destrcutive role. The accounts of having worked on the ground to re establish some form of normality of intercommunal co operation in specific villages, only to have press packs desend on such village to push stories of 'look how well GC and TC can live togeather' resulting in a total destruction of trust and co operation in their wake were quite compelling for me.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
29/05/2011 21:54

I think this footage shows that Taksim and partition was a very real goal for many TC's and that the movement was very well organised - 1958

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=60455



It would also confirm what most are saying, which is the movement was a response to the GC oppression. Saying that though, I am also mindful of what MM wrote in msge 93



" 1923: Lausanne Treaty; annexation recognized, and all claims to the island renounced. Turkish Cypriot delegation to Ankara to press for return of island to Turkey"



What is this thread really all about for non Cypriots on this board?



Its about the legitimacy of buying property on Greek Cypriot land. Zoots wants to prove that Turkey was to blame for the violence, so all foreign nationals should be punished, and the foreign nationals on this board want to prove that the GC's were in the wrong so our purchase is more legitimate.



So should foreign nationals have bought both esdger and pre 74 Turkish title land?

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
29/05/2011 22:47

My belief is yes.



The TRNC has a right to develop its economy and provide for the maximum well being of its people.

After the GC rejection of the Annan plan the TC's were left in the wilderness. With no solution in sight, why should they be denied the prosperity that other nations enjoy.

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
30/05/2011 00:09

oh well,now that the problem between GCs and TCs,whch both sides happen to be Cypriots,are sorted,whats the solution for Turkey's accupation?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
30/05/2011 00:36

yorg as I see it we (TC) can only free ourselves of the bulk of the influence and control of Turkey if we agree a settlement with the RoC. You could say, as many have, that we are between a rock and a hard place and are still looking for a way out.

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
30/05/2011 00:44

Erol, the demonstrators made it very clear what they wanted. They did not like what Turkey is doing, but also had no wish to be a "Pacha" to the RoC either. The current negotiations are on the right track, Turkey just had to give a bit of slack to Talat and I believe the problem would have been solved, assuming that Old yero muhtaro from the south is also genuine. Although I am no longer certain he was all that genuine about a solution after meeting the EOKA organisation after his election. What the hell was he doing going back to square one. All he had to do is renegotiate the Annan plans and we would have had a solution by now. He instead spent 14 months talking about governance.

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
30/05/2011 07:08

Erol Packard was trusting only Tpapas he knew that sampson and especially Giorgajis were scumbags and he discovers that after the incident with missing the Tcs and the response of Giorkatjis( ''fed them to the pigs''). Sampon was a puppet but a dangerous one . the press played a very significant role for propaganda in both community's and most of the time messed things up.One incident was that with, the old man and a child ,killed and move them to Lurucinas mosque for the press the child was shot on the head with a tam-tam ammunition but as i know(from a good source) at that time Gcs dident had any of the kind But TCs had blendy,So we dont know what to believe Erol. Yfred must know the incident . But i was truth that in the vast majority people were getting along with no problems.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
30/05/2011 09:02

So we dont know what to believe Erol.



Keep stuffing your head with nonsense tracer, and you never will.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
30/05/2011 09:19

Tracer, do you mean dum-dum?

What evidence do you have that TCs had plenty?

Or that EOKA protagonists did not procure some for just such a misdirection?

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
30/05/2011 09:23

assuming that Old yero muhtaro from the south is also genuine.



Yfred. The Trojans assumed that the Greeks had gone home, look what happend to them.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
30/05/2011 14:33

tracer msg144 "But i was truth that in the vast majority people were getting along with no problems." I am sorry tracer but this is just not correct , at least for the TC community. Whilst it may be true that the effects of the intercommunal violence only directly affected a minority of GC, it is not true for TC. Misinformation was rife in that period and used by both sides, but the overriding reality of life for the TC community in that period can not be denied.

My comments re the press were not about the local parochial press pushing propaganda and extermism, that was to be expected. What I was less aware off was how much damage was done to intercommunal trust by the exploiting of press to show 'how TC and GC could get along'. Packard repeatedly describes senrios where real progress had been made donw on the ground by his team, only to have it totaly undermined by the arrival of press packs seeking to use this fragile and newly agreed cooperation as examples of [cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
30/05/2011 14:39

GC and TC living togeather in harmony.

My other issue with Packard is he laments the way in which British and then UN peacekeeping efforts 'benefited' TC in that it solidifed seperation of the communites rather than facilitated re integration, a point that is validly made to some degree. However what he seems to totaly fail to see is the other side of that coing, that his efforts to mediate and facilitate re integration and co operation of the communites 'benefited' the 'more subtle' GC trying to implement the Akritas plan. One has only to read the Akritas plan and then Packards book to understand why the likes of Tassos Papadoplus were so receptive and seemingly supportive of his efforts.