Lawyers don't have a duty of care to their customers!!

stevemac


Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 99

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 16:14

I am amazed and disgusted by the interview in this weeks Cyprus star with the head of the Nicosia Bar Association who states that lawyers here don't have any duty of care to their customers (i.e. buyers of property) in the TRNC. Apparantly, we're all supposed to know the law before we buy property here and are supposed to ask our lawyers exactly what we work we want them to carry out for us i.e. searches, title deed queries, building permit queries, proxmity to army bases etc. What a joke!!! That's the reason we go to a so-called lawyer in the first place, because we don't know the law and are paying them vast amounts of cash to protect our interests!!!

WHO WOULD BUY A PROPERTY NOW IN THE TRNC KNOWING THIS!!

Let's face it, most of us are in the desparate situations we're in now because the lawyers gave us bad advice or in some cases downright lied to us or covered up information. And the government are condoning this.

stevemac


Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 99

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 16:18

Interestingly, I don't think the head of the bar association has followed up any complaints received about lawyers here in the TRNC. I wonder why not.



In another article by Martin in Cyprus Star he seems to condone the practise of taking out mortgages by landowners when the land is already subject to a contract of sale. The lawyers here frequently tell people this is normal practise here and it's just a formality. WRONG! They compare it to builders taking out mortgages in the UK to complete sites however this is ridiculous. In the UK mortgages are repaid and people receive their title deeds simultaneoulsy with payment for their property. People are going to be evicted from their homes here because this practise has been allowed to continue by the banks and the lawyers and the developers. THIS IS WRONG and IT IS FRAUD!

Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 16:26

Really is a negative for anyone who intends to put there faith in advocates , another nail in the coffin for property sales . Will they ever learn this govenment .

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 16:34

But it only involves foreigners so nobody really cares about them. Locals wouldn't use a lawyer to buy a property so outsiders who do are seen as ripe for being exploited to the hilt. And still they come...

Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 16:38

but not in droves as before . It is getting concerning that the foreigners are being hit so hard . Are we wanted in the TRNC anymore , sadly i think not .

w26kay



Joined: 14/10/2007
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 16:43

Steve, I have now complained twice to BARO. The first complaint was faxed, and lost by them, then miraculously found again, (after numerous telephone calls to their offices), then we were requested to provide documentary evidence to support our complaint, which we did by fax and by hand. When my husband called at BARO's offices in January, he met Mr Inan (turkish translation - I believe!!!!! Good name eh?) who was drinking coffee and playing card games on the computer. Inan admitted that he had no power over lawyers in TRNC so what could he do? Therefore it is absolutely useless making a complaint to them in the first place. By the way, I am still waiting a response, any response to my complaint after 10 months. They wouldn't get away with it in the UK.

cocos


Joined: 04/04/2008
Posts: 129

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 17:44

It is outragous but from the horses mouth they are admitting what the HBPG have been saying all along. In the article good old Mr guilty himself Akan Gurkan says people arent in danger of losing their homes from eviction. Yeah, right! Why are they being put up for auction then! I admit there are some good lawyers here but few and far between. Many of them are directly responsible for peoples misery now by lying, being party to blackmail, extortion, threats and giving false information to unsuspecting buyers who trusted them to act on their behalf and who paid them large amounts of fees to do so. How do they sleep at night?

CJtill


Joined: 02/05/2008
Posts: 836

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 18:00

Cocos

Are you saying that there are cases in TRNC where the banks have foreclosed on a mortgage and put the property up for sale. If this is so could you advise where this has happened as a LOT of would be owners are getting very worried.

Michael

karakum5c



Joined: 18/03/2008
Posts: 1021

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 18:06

A Lawyer is some one who knows he is breaking the law, while a criminal is someone who denies he has broken the law.

The butler


Joined: 22/06/2007
Posts: 1958

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 18:20

Hi stevemac,



Let me tell you that Martin from Cyprus star is a director of Medview Homes and of course he condones taking mortgages out on property that has been bought and paid for. This is what Medview have done to my home and fifty other owners homes in the TRNC. Nothing to do with bad lawyers as this mortgage was only taken out 2 years after we bought but before the need for registration.



The Butler





The Butler

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 20:29

Problem is that there is no regulating/disciplinary body (like the UK Law Society) for lawyers in NC. Neither is there any indemnity insurance to protect lawyers clients. The courts are also useless. No lawyer will take action (on behalf of a client) against another lawyer. The lies that are told about NC law being based on UK law. Well it might have been in 1960 but these days they make it up as they go along. Lawyers in NC have no interest in representing their clients, only themselves in the fees they charge. Problem is they either don't know the law or even if they do, realise that there is nothing they can do practically or legally to solve the problem for their client.

windmill


Joined: 06/07/2008
Posts: 143

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 20:58

It would be very interesting to know how many people on this forum would name and shame there advocate ( lawyer ) on this forum

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 21:24

With carefull managment it is possible to get even TRNC lawyers to perform at least within the frail legal system within the TRNC.



DO not pay legal fees up front. Payment by installments according to work done.



Be very particular with questioning and DO NOT hope that the lawyer will do it all for you.

Questions:

View and get copy of the original KOCAN and site plan.

Is the developer the land owner.

Is there any mortgage on the land/property.

Check out VAT and other taxes and clarify who pays and when.

Not advisable to pay your lawyer for the property or stage payments ONLY pay for work carried out and if possible inspect, check and sign off payments when you are satisfied with work done.

Use common sense and make well thought out judgment as to where when and how.

It can be a mine field out there but caution combined with prudent decisions can get you what you want.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 21:31

In other words, do it yourself and save yourself a fortune in lawyers fees.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 21:37

Receipt of a fee as an advocate establishes a contract in law, and therefore a duty of care.



Accectance of the fee establishes the right to a duty of care. WHAT DID YOU PAY THEM FOR?



These people leave me breathless!



wyn

mickey rourke


Joined: 27/08/2008
Posts: 157

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 21:42

Waz

There are NO lawyers in TRNC only Advocates

Hector

the UK has built up it's laws over the past 90/100 years the TRNC had been isolated for 35 years approx.

Stevemac

As in UK solicitors/advocates/lawyers will only do as instructed, trouble is we Brits for the most part left our brains behind in the UK when we saw the chance to make a few bucks buying properties cheap here and now we are suffering, ask yourself would you - in the UK have accepted a developers lawyer to represent your interests, and yet many have done so here, case rested

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 22:00

Sorry Mickey,



I usually like your postings. I said ADVOCATES. They establish a duty of care by accepting a fee! Unfortunatley you may have to take them to court to establish the fact.



I would be pleased to hear our learned friend Ismets take, on this one.



wyn

flowerfairy


Joined: 17/09/2008
Posts: 1277

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 22:05

We used a company called Sener Law firm, fellowship house in Girne.

Ayhan Sener has dealt with our purchase, also our permissions.

I have to date no complaints, when the hoo haa came up about stamp

duties, which I knew nothing about, i contacted her panicking, she had already

got our contract stamped as a matter of course.

I'm sorry to read so many sad stories about advocates.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 22:21

Whyn,

I intended to keep quiet on this one but I couldnot miss the bait



1. Before 1974 we had only Certifying Officers and not Noters. Turkish nationals began settling hee from 1974 onwards and Certifying Officers began to call themselves "Noters" to fill in the gap. Lots of mistakes made there because so called noters have no clue about the law but they were asked to draw up contracts and so they did.



2. After the Annan plan you Brits began to come in droves and suddenly advocates began calling themselves "Solicitors" or you Brits insisted on calling them solicitors and of course you expected them to perform the same duties as those in UK. Whose fault?



3. Locals normally used go to an Tapu agent for conveyancing and pay a few bob for the services and get the title deeds straight away. With the advent of off plan houses, they would get a share kocan and safeguard themselves to some extend. Most locals consult lawyers after they have signed the contract put forward by the d

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 22:24

So these lawyers are just people with a law degree and no formal legal training?

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 22:29

the developers, they come and ask if it is ok? In most cases too late but this is a fact.



4. Most Brits made the mistake of going to the "solicitor" recommended by the developer or estate agent, so whose interest are they supposed to look after? Even if they did their job properly and asked for security, most probably the deal would be off and the advocate would not be able to get any fees. so everything is loaded against the buyer. I know one particular buyer who was going to buy from Bellapais and contacted my wife just to go through the agreed contract before signing and was prepared to pay a fee for independent advice. The vendor was not willing to give any security and the deal was off. This was the right way to go about it. My wife was free to protect her client to the full because she got paid in advance for her services.



5. The new law for the registration of contracts came in too late. The foreign buyers were not allowed to have the land mortgaged in their favour but ...

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 22:32

Groucho,



I thought you were supposed to be reading all my posts! I doubt some of them have even got an LLB given the lawlessness of the state itself. It's like the Wild West. I could guide people through the buying process (strictly pre-74) for a damn sight less than £1200, or whatever these Mickey Mouse con artists masquerading as lawyers are charging the mugs now,

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 22:36

Elko,



As usual we are indebted for your wise counsel. If an advocate takes a fee (not inconsiderable) to perform certain duties, does he not ,in so doing, accept a duty of care, to his client? What would the client have to do , to establish a duty of care?



wyn

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 22:38

this practice is very rare. It boils down to going to an independent lawyer. Most Brits preferred the one recommended by the developer so that everything went through smoothly but they could not see the conflict of interest and what it entailed. Whose fault?



6. Advocates have a duty of care but you have to specify wht you want from them or what they agreed to do. Assuming that they are solicitors and expecting the same duties was wrong. If you ask a lawyer to draw up a contract of sale, he/she will do just that unless you go to them independently and ask the relevant question about security.



7. there are many complaints made to the Bar about advocates and they are passed on to the disciplinary committee but they are really serious cases like collecting money on behalf of clients and pocketing it. Duty of care is very difficult to prove and more suitable for the courts rather than the disciplinary committee.



Groucho,

These lawyers have a degree in law plus a years training ..

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 22:38

I already knew the answer Pike... I was playing DA...



I have stated before that it is an outrage that anybody without formal legal training should be allowed to be members of the BAR Association.



If this statment by the head of the BAR Association is truly his intended meaning then I think it worse than even I thought... they at least seemed to pay lip-service to a legal system but his admission undermines even that...



çok çok ayıp

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 22:40

Elko2

Somewhat bemused and put out by your references to 'you Brits'. How were said ' Brits' supposed to know that NC fraudsters (I can only read that they were from your explanation) had started calling themselves 'solicitors' and were not lawyers in the UK sense? What did the NC government do about this clear fraud? What did you/your wife do, knowing what was going on?

w26kay



Joined: 14/10/2007
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 22:41

Groucho, I have been saying this for years. A Law Degree and nothing else! There is no such thing as a "Solicitor" in TRNC. At the risk of repeating myself again. When you instruct a Solicitor in the UK, they advise you on the options/remedies available to you to deal with your matter. They have a duty of care to act in your best interests, and to declare a conflict of interest. There are no rules and regulations in TRNC to protect the client. There is no indemnity insurance. In January my husband downloaded the UK Solicitors Professional Conduct Rules on a disc and gave it Hassan Sungar who had specifically requested it to pass onto the appropriate person and use as a framework for lawyers in TRNC. Still no framework. Still no office dealing with the many complaints about a handful of negligent and corrupt (mainly Girne based) TRNC lawyers. Has the Government done anything to stop the rot and help the purchaser? No. Is it going to? No.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 22:44

with an advocate of at least 5 yhears standing plus pass the Bar exam.



Whyn,

The trouble is not proving what the advocate did not do but what he had agreed to do!!! The fee charged is not a good measure. Specially in assizes some charge 10-20,000 YTL for a few minutes work!!! I am afraid it is free for all. The fees are more regulated in civil cases but the lawyer and client may agree for a special fee. My advise to you is to sign the normal official fee when signing the "retainer".

ismet

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 22:45

Hector,



He likes the Brits sucking up to him but at the end of the day you'll only hear what he thinks you want to hear, given the large amount of vested interests. At the end of the day, foreigners are foreigners, they have no rights worth speaking of and are a steady source of Sterling in the TRNC.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 22:47

Q: What is the difference between a lawyer and a gigolo?

A: A gigolo only screws one person at a time.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 22:48

Presumably there is a public register of TRNC advocates showing their training, universities and qualifications. The kind of Law Society thing that can be checked online by ordinary punters to pervent crooks and con artists ripping off foreigners.

w26kay



Joined: 14/10/2007
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 22:51

Ismet....

"These lawyers have a degree in law plus a years training" - Where? in TRNC?

They certainly do not have a years training in the UK. They could not complete their 2 year training contract post qualification in just one year.



From what I know and have seen, a huge fee is paid by unsuspecting clients, for a so called lawyer to print off a contract which is already on the PC anyway and is used time and time again. With hindsight, anyone with a modicum of common sense could draft a contract. It is not the contract the client was paying for. It is the expertise of the lawyer drafting the contract to guide their client through the pitfalls of purchasing. That is what the lawyer is being paid for. It is not up to the client to know what questions to ask. It is up to the lawyer to advise the client appropriately every step of the way. Otherwise why bother with a lawyer?

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 22:51

I've heard some 'Alice in Wonderland' things in my time but this takes the biscuit. It's the 'Brits' fault for not asking their advocates/lawyers/solicitors the right questions?

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 22:53

It's the 'Brits' fault for not asking their advocates/lawyers/solicitors the right questions? ..............................



Hector, thats a great one liner!

w26kay



Joined: 14/10/2007
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 22:54

It adds insult to injury for lawyers now to hide behind the facade that the client should have asked the "RIGHT" questions.



Oh but of course all ex-pats know the TRNC law inside out dont we? Or if we don't we should! And all have so much expertise and knowledge of the TRNC Law that of course we KNOW all the right questions to ask don't we? If not, why not? If it wasn't so serious it would be laughable.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 22:55

Welcome to the TRNC...

w26kay



Joined: 14/10/2007
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 22:56

Pikey.....Presumably there is a public register of TRNC advocates showing their training, universities and qualifications. The kind of Law Society thing that can be checked online by ordinary punters to pervent crooks and con artists ripping off foreigners.



Not to my knowledge.

Regards.

Hope you are well BTW?

w26kay



Joined: 14/10/2007
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 22:58

No1Doyan..... Please please please please please remember this......

There are NO SOLICITORS IN THE TRNC. NOT 1 SINGLE 1. NO SOLICITORS NO SOLICITORS NO SOLICITORS. NO SOLICITORS IN TRNC.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 23:02

Kay, I didn't say there were! But thanks anyway.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 23:05

Kay,

It is only a handfull of lawyers who got involved in conveyancing and almost all of them worked closely with the developers or estate agents. Asking for security would mean the end of the deal in most cases, so they kept quiet. I am not saying they did the right honourable thing but it suited them to fill their pockets. If all of them acted in the same manner, then you have to look at it from a pschological point of view and try to understand how it happened. Registration of contracts was a good measure, rescinding the Specific Performance law will be a good step forward. I am very hopeful abdout it. I am waitinbg to see the President on this one.

ismet

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 23:10

....then you have to look at it from a pschological point of view and try to understand how it happened.....



Ismet, are you saying they were not in the right frame of mind?

w26kay



Joined: 14/10/2007
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 23:16

Ismet...Kay, I agree, not all, but slightly more than a handful. As I said previously mostly Girne based. They know who they are. The HBPG know who they are. Same old names keep cropping up time and time again.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 23:17

Talk about digging yourself a hole...

'..you have to look at it from a psychological point of view and try to understand how it happened.'

Let me think about that. Oh yes. It's called greed + deception = fraud. That plus the acquiessensce of the NC people & government in knowing what was going on.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 23:20

Doyen,

They knew exactly what they were doing. Shall we say it was the gold rush days that happened in the wild west?



I am afraid the worst is to come. The Land Registry Office is not keen to process the repossession of mortgaged land, so there are thousands of applications by the banks for sale. The office is very inefficient and in this particular case the government is quite happy to let this side of the office remain inefficient. There are many people who borrowed money from the banks and now their houses are at risk. Of course the same thing will happen where developers borrowed money from the banks and mortgaged the land already sold. Its a a ticking bomb and a nightmare.

ismet

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 23:20

A very interesting post. Thanks to all for your contributions.





CAVEAT EMPTOR!



wyn

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 23:20

oh, and as it's only a handful of lawyers (presumably known to the authorities as it appears everyone else knows, well apart from 'you Brits') we can expect the government to act and strike them off of whatever legal position / standing they don't apparently have?

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 23:25

Ismet,



If they sold the land and then sold it again in the form of raising a mortgage did they not defraud the Bank rather than the original purchaser? I should have thought that the bank having not done "due diligence" was at fault too.



i.e. before they grant a mortagage on a property they should make it their business to check that the land has not already been sold...

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 23:31

Groucho,

You tell me how? The bank sees the original title deeds and also checks with the Land Registry Office to see if there is any court order or a mortgage on it. That is all they had to do.



The banks are aware that all compulsory sales are on hold and therefore now they prefer to lend money to buyers of cars or other consumer goods and thus no credit for businessess against a mortgage. Another reason for the downturn for the economy.

ismet

w26kay



Joined: 14/10/2007
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 23:33

If the corrupt syndicate of lawyers are taken to task, I can forsee their explanation for the whole saga



It's wasn't us, it's not our fault. The blames lies with the ex-pats who came here and purchased property, didn't ask the right questions, and put greed and temptation in our way. What could we do, we we forced to line our pockets?"



Before you know it, the expats will be charged with enticing and procuring the lawyers to commit acts of dishonest appropriation of monies to which they were not entitled to and the lawyers will be awarded damages! Well, this is "Pirate Island"

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 23:38

Kay,

"Before you know it, the expats will be charged with enticing and procuring the lawyers to commit acts of dishonest appropriation of monies to which they were not entitled to and the lawyers will be awarded damages! Well, this is "Pirate Island"



That's a good one.



Look, once I had a campaign against Certifying Officers passing themselves as "Noters" and I had prominent article in Kibris paper once. The chief Justice at the time phoned me and said that something must be done abdout it. Then I spoke with the Attorney General and he agreed with me. So what happened? A big nothing. Would you like me to dig up that article and Turkish and give it to Ken as his next homework?

ismet

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 23:43

Ah ha! I should have guessed! It wasn't the 'Cyps' fault after all. Silly me! (Elko, trust it's ok to refer to 'Cyps' as per 'Brits'). It was us 'Brits' who after all said and done, caused the problem by calling totally unqualified 'Cyps', solicitors (who naturally didn't think they should be the ones to put the record straight.)

w26kay



Joined: 14/10/2007
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 23:46

Ismet, if The Land Registry Office is not keen to process the repossession of mortgaged land, and there are thousands of applications by the banks for sale, and the department who processes the repossessions are inefficient, how can any of us be sure that there was a pending application by the bank for repossession prior to lodging and paying for registration? For all I know, there may be a pending mortgage lurking in the inefficient department waiting to be registered to my land. So what happens in that instance? The bank could argue that they lodged their application before mine, and it would have been registered but for the inefficiencies and don't forget, the bank have "deep pockets". Given what you have said, does registration afford any protection at all? You say it is a time-bomb ticking. Is this another "con" by the Government to extract revenue from expats for registration, that's not really worth the fee, or the paper it's printed on?

but due to

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 23:51

Kay,

I am sorry but you are totally wrong on this one. If you get a mortgage on any land, it is registered there and then and from that moment on it will come up in all searches. The inefficiency is on the side of compulsorry sales. Once you have your contract registered with a clean bill, that is the end of the matter. There cannot be a hidden mortgage unless there is a clear fraud to hide it and not shown on your registration papers.

ismet

w26kay



Joined: 14/10/2007
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 23:53

Ismet, I am not wrong, just asking questions, not stating facts. Can you elaborate on your time-bomb ticking statement please?

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 23:56

Ismet

I take it you mean that the time bomb is for those properties (contracts) that have not been registered as per the new rules (Jan 08). Those properties that were already mortgaged and not registered or have been registered but subject to the knowledge that there is a mortgage outstanding?

w26kay



Joined: 14/10/2007
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
04/11/2008 23:59

Hector. Thanks. That makes sense to me.

Ah, you see I struggle with land law/conveyancing!

Well no-ones perfect, not even me!!!

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
05/11/2008 00:01

Kay,

The time bomb reference is the compulsory sale of land when banks ask for their money. Eventually these sales will have to materialize otherwise the banks will stop lending money against mortgages. That means no lending to businesses and it is almost the situation today.



Once these sales begin it will affect the locals as well as foreign buyers who paid for the house but its mortgaged to a bank by the developer. The Amarantha Valley saga will be nothing compared to what may happen.

ismet

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
05/11/2008 00:03

How will the banks sell these houses? Auction as in UK? Where will the buyers come from? What happens if the sale price fails to meet the outstanding mortgage?

w26kay



Joined: 14/10/2007
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
05/11/2008 00:06

Thanks. I understand it now.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
05/11/2008 00:10

Hector,

There are rules for such sales and it is conducted by people authorised by the Land Office. If it does not meet the reserve price, the sale is postponed for six months and the reserve price is reduced by a certain percentage, I think 30%. the process is repeated every six months until it is sold.



I think the banks may buy it to prevent the sale falling off too much but they have to resell it within a certain time, otherwise the banks could end up owning all land. Its all regulted by law.

ismet

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
05/11/2008 00:10

'It's all regulated by law'

At least something is.

mickey rourke


Joined: 27/08/2008
Posts: 157

Message Posted:
05/11/2008 07:45

Hello wyn old son I was referring to Waz who used the word lawyer, not you me hearty, sorry if you thought it was aimed at you but i did put Waz at the top

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
05/11/2008 09:09

Noted Mickey, my oversight!



wyn

stevemac


Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 99

Message Posted:
05/11/2008 10:33

Ismet is right about the ticking time bomb. The banks are already making noises about auctioning land on which people have paid in full for their properties and are living in them. So everyone who has a property on a piece of mortgaged land needs to be worried about it. Afterall the banks will want their money and how will they get it back if the developer won't repay it to them? They'll seize his assets attached to the mortgage for sale. This doesn't just affect a few people, many people found out the land their properties stood on was mortgaged when they went to register their contracts during the amnesty. Some of the well known lawyers whose names come up again and again are still not informing their clients that property they want to buy are mortgaged to death even though they are well aware of it!



Speak to the HBPG they will tell you all the grim details of what's going on.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
05/11/2008 11:25

What about the people who have paid in full and have their 'kocans'. Can they still sell the land from under them?

Littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
05/11/2008 11:31

yes of course they can unless they pay off the loan !! even then there is NOT A LAW TO MAKE THE LANDOWNER give the kocan to the buyer,,,,,



So pay off the loan the landowner / builder owes the bank great bank off your back ok mr landowner / builder can I now have my kocan ??



Hmmmm no



Nothing at all you can do.

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
05/11/2008 11:43

Ismet

"There are rules for such sales and it is conducted by people authorised by the Land Office. If it does not meet the reserve price, the sale is postponed for six months and the reserve price is reduced by a certain percentage, I think 30%. the process is repeated every six months until it is sold"



Funny that there are rules / laws that must be strictly adhered to whenever we are screwed by moving goalposts and have to dip into their pockets .For example the fiasco when rushing thro registration of contract and stamp duty payments and penalties

.By golly when govt needs more money from us they can certainly move as regards the law.

We need similar action, its basically our own fault for not studying TRNC property law ,or lack of it .

Maybe its our own fault . In the past have we sent the wrong signal, condoning any abuse of the property system, by laughingly saying its just the cute "cyprus way". Not so funny now!



Must think ROC will bail the system out

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
05/11/2008 12:51

Doyen,

You asked: "What about the people who have paid in full and have their 'kocans'. Can they still sell the land from under them?"



If you do have the kocan in *your* name you are home well and dry, nobody can take it from you and nobody can put a mortgage on it without your permission.

ismet

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
05/11/2008 12:52

Girne et al,

Don't shoot the messenger!!!

ismet

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
05/11/2008 12:59

Elko



Simple the way lots of other things ar discovered the world over... the land registry put a notice in the newpapers declaring the request and intention to raise a mortgage on a plot of land....



The owners of the contract could then let their objections be known to the bank who are the targets of the fraud.... it is fraud and it should be stamped out as such....



Using the organs of the press is used in the UK for county court Judgements and all sorts of other official business... why could this not be done here...



Answer none... other than openess and honesty....

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
05/11/2008 14:06

Groucho,

1. It is so easy to try and remedy something and end up in a worse position. If I want to borrow money from a bank and wish to commit my house as security, why should all and sundry know about it? Where is the privacy of my life? In any case would a notice in Turkish in a Turkish daily suffice or should it also be in English? What about the French, the Germans, the Russians etc. who do buy in TRNC? Just not on!!



2. The lawyers could have taken out mortgages on the land in question in order to protect the interests of their clients if they did not really work closely with the developers and in return help themselves. The proper answer was the registration of contracts but it came too late.



3. If over 50% of the sales of a developer went through a particular lawyer, my view is that this particular lawyer was in breach of "conflict of interest" and can be taken to court by the buyers for improper conduct. However you will need a very good lawyer to argue out such a case b

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
05/11/2008 14:07

but it is not impossible.

ismet

kazzybe


Joined: 04/04/2008
Posts: 21

Message Posted:
05/11/2008 14:15

Sorry but I don't see how a landowner taking out a mortgage on land that he has already sold to people under contract could not be considered to be fraud. If the landowners intentions were honest they would have told the people they had sold the land to prior to taking out the mortgages instead of people having to find out at land regisitry. This is dishonesty and deceit. Yes the landowner ill argue that they needed the funds to finish the development but if they took the mortgages out after they had a sales contract with a buyer that is fraud pure and simple and should be treated as such. They knew full well that if they didnt pay it back then the people who are now living in their villas on mortgaged land would most probably be thrown out when the banks foreclose on the loans. It is disgusting.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
05/11/2008 14:39

Kazzybe,

You are not the first person to claim that a developer who mortgages his land after selling the houeses on it is tantamount to fraud. It may be so in the eyes of the layman but is it so legally? Our criminal law is basically the same as the one in UK. Can anyone point me to any decisions of the High Court of England to prove that it is actually a fraud as accepted by the courts in UK? I am genuinely interested in the subject and it will be of great help to those contemplating action in TRNC.



For your information you can download our Criminal Code at http://www.mahkemeler.net/mahkeme-web-t/ifasil/CAP154.pdf



Have a look at paragraphs 302 and 303 on page 94 and I would like to pick up the discussion from there with legally minded people. What may seem fraud to a layman may not be fraud for the courts.

ismet

stevemac


Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 99

Message Posted:
05/11/2008 15:33

Section 303 surely covers the advocates making false statements to purchasers by saying there is nothing to worry about by buying a property with a mortgage on it?



Surely it also covers landowners taking out mortgages unbeknownst to purchasers by concealing from them any incumbrance. Surely this also covers developers who have informed purchasers that they will get their title deeds, knowing that they would not because the developers wouldn't pay their taxes or initiate transfer of title?

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
05/11/2008 16:14

Ismet



In the south,

the buyer has protection that, once the contract has been registered,the contract agreement then takes precedence over the mortgage agreement if the land is mortgaged after it was sold. Does this apply to us now that we have registered our contracts.



In Spain this appears to be the rule.

"t is your lawyers responsibility to ensure that all bills against the property have been paid prior to reaching the notary's office. If the property has a mortgage on it then at the point of sale a bank representative will either transfer it to your name or the balance owed by the vendor will be paid in full to the bank in front of the notary."



So not all countries think selling of mortgaged land is normal!



Dont know if mortgage on sold land is legal or not in UK, but the lender keeps the deeds till loan paid off ,so impossible to sell on as couldnt be registered.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
05/11/2008 17:21

W26KAY: "Well, this is "Pirate Island""



Ah harr! And oi've get me blue suit on ready for us to sail back to sanity, Sis!"



;-)

The butler


Joined: 22/06/2007
Posts: 1958

Message Posted:
05/11/2008 17:33

Hi All,



Nobody has mentioned our problem. When we bought from a well known developer in 2006 not off plan but finished property. There was no encumberance on the land. In 2008 when we went to register our said property. we were told there was a mortgage on it. The mortgage was raised in Nov. 2007. Why did the bank lend money on sold land? We had to sign our forms at the land registry without predjudice or else do nothing. The mortgage is still on the land despite several promises to clear it. This must be fraud! What else can you call it?



Steve

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
05/11/2008 17:44

ELKO2: "Look, once I had a campaign against Certifying Officers passing themselves as "Noters" and I had prominent article in Kibris paper once. The chief Justice at the time phoned me and said that something must be done abdout it. Then I spoke with the Attorney General and he agreed with me. So what happened? A big nothing. Would you like me to dig up that article and Turkish and give it to Ken as his next homework?"



Sorry, but that's just a smokescreen to deflect from the corrupt "advocates". Certifying officers, notars, who cares what they're called? These guys are who the Cypriots use and it's who I used to buy my house. If I remember right the whole transaction was done and dusted for about £150. Standard template contract in Turkish and English, fill in the gaps, no legal encumbrances or burdens on the property, a quick check with the land registries and that was me. No "lawyer" needed. Which is just as well as there don't appear to be many worthy of the name in the TRNC.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
05/11/2008 17:56

Steve msg 78,



It sounds like a criminal fraud to me. Don't banks employ lawyers to check with their opposite numbers at the land registry that there are no burdens on the property and it's registered to the legal owner? They do in real countries. Maybe our resident legal expert can help us out on this one, while he's figuring out why expats weren't warned about something he appears to have known for some time.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
05/11/2008 18:08

girne 29: "...its basically our own fault for not studying TRNC property law ,or lack of it. Maybe its our own fault . In the past have we sent the wrong signal, condoning any abuse of the property system, by laughingly saying its just the cute "cyprus way". Not so funny now!"



Indeed it isn't funny. I wonder how they're feeling now, all those who tried to discredit the honourable few who pointed out time and again the TRNC system was corrupt and rotten to the core.



girne 29: "Must think ROC will bail the system out"



Ironically, those who do manage to hang onto their mortgaged property may end up paying ground rent to the legal GC owners. Hands up all those who still think it was a good idea to buy and sell stolen land.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
05/11/2008 18:18

Errors have been made. Others will be blamed.

brandy sour


Joined: 09/04/2008
Posts: 310

Message Posted:
05/11/2008 19:27

WECOME TO TRNC where builders can do what they like when they like.

Aga Buyers A G


Joined: 04/10/2007
Posts: 488

Message Posted:
05/11/2008 19:30

BrandySour



gotta add to that



WECOME TO TRNC where builders "and anyone else that has got money " can do what they like when they like



ABAG

xxxxxxx

http://latchfords.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!AED4FE7679CA3C33!1369.entry

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
05/11/2008 19:45

Pike,



That photograph! How much more can honest members of this board take?



wyn

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
05/11/2008 20:13

Msg. 76

Girne,

Now it is the same in TRNC, once you have it registered no new mortgage can be taken out on the land as far as you are concerned and therefore your purchase is in safe keeping. Your reference to Spain is completely a diffferent kettle of fish, you are talking about buying property with title deeds ready to be transferred. Obviously once the bank gets its money the mortgage is lifted and the new buyer gets the title deeds. the rest is just details.



Msg. 79

Pte Pike (aka Eric Seans, aka .....)

Talk about deflection of issues?? Well, whatever you say, you are the undisputed master!!



Msg.78

Pte whatever, I am lost for words, did you actually read it? It makes no sense. Of course bankd or anybody else for that matter check with the Land Registry Office before placing a mortgage on it. The legal owners are always the title deed owners and only them can agree before anything is done with it. It is always possible to take out a second, a third etc. mortgage on the

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
05/11/2008 20:16

same property and the earlier one always takes priority i.e if it is sold at auction, the first mortgage owner takes all the moeny and if anything is left behind the secon one and so on. In order to to all this properly, the records with the Land Registry Office is of vitgal importance. Any sale agreements not registered iwth the Land Registry is not part of the official picture. Hence registration is very very important. I cannot stress it in any better way.

ismet

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
05/11/2008 20:19

elko2,



Msg 79. You are the undisputed master?..............



More a legend in his own mind!



wyn

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
05/11/2008 21:23

I think that someone viz a developer, who having signed a contract of sale on a property, who then takes out a mortgage on that property, should be charged with conspiracy to defraud contrary to S 302 & 303. These laws are over 50 years old and have not kept up with the times. The trial can be seen as a test case by the Attorney General. If it fails in the criminal court then the criminal codes need updating.

If the bank granted a mortgage on a property before it was even built, then could it not be argued that the house when built is nothing to do with the mortgage, only the land? Only the value of the land would be at risk.

stevemac


Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 99

Message Posted:
06/11/2008 06:49

Very true Hector. Those re my thoughts too. Some banks have granted mortgages for £500,000 on a plot of land which can fit six villas on. This means they must have calculated the mortgage value available with the villas on them, even though it was just land when the mortgage was granted. This means they were fully aware the plot was sold or would be subject to a contract of sale!

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
06/11/2008 07:27

Msg. 89 & 90



Hector and Steve,

As I said before what seems to be a definite fraud in the eyes of the layman may not be so in terms of the law *as it stands*. Any change in law cannot be made to work retrospectively i.e. backwards in time and this is based on solid reasoning. The banks are certainly aware of the villas on the plot of land and probably their evaluations are based on it but they can look at the situation from a very narrow legal point and all they are interested are the title deeds and of any encumbrances registered on them.



May I repeat my call once again: can anybody direct me to a relevant judgement of the High Court or Court of Appeal in UK? This is the way it is done all over the world.

ismet

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
06/11/2008 13:29

Ismet

The banks are operating in an legally inequitable manner by 'looking at the situation from a narrow legal point...'. As you know those who come to equity must do so with clean hands. The banks do not have clean hands. Both the bank and the developer are under a duty to inform the buyer either before or after a mortgage is obtained. I can't imagine Lord Denning in his heyday not finding a remedy for the victim, can you?

stevemac


Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 99

Message Posted:
06/11/2008 13:43

Anyone who has a property on mortgaged land should not give the vendor any more money because you will be at serious risk of being repossessed for the banks to auction the land. Seek advice from HBPG. The government is well aware of this massive problem that now exists for buyers and yet does nothing. This is going to affect people on a massive scale especially in the current financial crisis.



Instead of trying to sort out these serious issues they sit back and ignore it and the developers are now targeting the Russians and Scandinavians. Well it wont be long before they find out whats going on here either!

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
06/11/2008 14:09

Msg. 92



Hector,

I have no doubt what Lord Denning would have said but he was a very exceptional judge, the judge of the century. As you probably know, he had more decisions overturned by the higher courts than any other judge and he was even subjected to insults from his superiors but he did not yield in and at the end of the day he was acknowledged as the judge of the century.



Msg.93

Steve,

As a matter of principle I agree with you about non payment but it may make things worse. It is a case of between the devil and the deep blue sea.

ismet

windmill


Joined: 06/07/2008
Posts: 143

Message Posted:
06/11/2008 14:25

Do not get our little pike all upset,can you imagine what is skin will go like,with that rough old blue suit against it,goose bumps everywhere,you will not know his muscle from his goose bumps.

Bless him

w26kay



Joined: 14/10/2007
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
06/11/2008 14:40

Ismet. I am doing some research on the subject. You may be interested to look at this website - http://www.Bailii.



It very much depends upon whether the landowner made any payments at all towards the mortgage on the land. This has a bearing, as clearly then, inferences could be drawn on whether there was an intention to permanently deprive (the villa owners of their rights), but the Theft Act 1968 cannot be used here as it precludes land, and land issues.



Have a look at Bailii.

Regards.

Kay

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
06/11/2008 17:21

Msg 92, outstanding post.

cocos


Joined: 04/04/2008
Posts: 129

Message Posted:
06/11/2008 19:06

Steve I agree withyou about not making further payments to developers who have mortgages on the land. If a bank lends half a million on a site that has six villas to be built on it what are they playing at? IMHO when people pay in stage payments they are paying more than the cost of the next stage of construction so in theory the developer should have no need to take out a mortgage unless his intention is to defraud and deceive the buyers. If people carry on paying more money to developers who have mortgaged then they risk losing even more money when they default and the bank forecloses,. The banks need to start giving more info to the buyers on sites that are covered by mortgages but no doubt they will keep it all hush hush.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
06/11/2008 20:15

Kay,

Msg. 96

The link did not work, can you find it for me please?

ismet

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
06/11/2008 22:42

Ismet

It's http://www.bailii.org/

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
06/11/2008 22:50

Ok citizens of the TRNC, here is my latest wheeze.

I have decided to set up as a car dealer. I'll sell desirable cars of course. Lets say Mercedes, I've seen the odd one or two smart ones around ( lets ignore taxis).

So here is the deal. You order a nice new Merc. Government minister you say? Oh, in that case you can have a discount. Right, I need 20% deposit (in sterling naturally, preferably to my UK bank account) & deliver say in 3 months ish (it is Cyprus after all).

You wont mind (I'm sure of that so no need to tell you) if whilst you await delivery, I take out a nice bank loan on the car. I am still the owner of the car after all.

No need to worry, well so long as I repay the loan. If not well, the bank will have to seize your car (when you get it) and auction it.

There, just normal business. I'm sure the government minister will understand the law and appreciate that's life. You don't think that the law would change to stop this do you?

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
06/11/2008 23:03

Hi Hector,



I'm only here for a week. I will take 10 cash up front of course. Have you got a legally



binding contract in the bottom of your draw, by any chance.



Oh Bloody Hell, I have'nt got a driving licence. Never mind. Delivery.. Whenever you say sir.



Are you sure that I don't need petrol or tax?



I must ask PVT Pike to advise me on this transaction two years after the even! Thats the



sort of friends that I need. It makes him feel good, if he can pontificate 2 years after the



event.



wyn

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
06/11/2008 23:03

Hector,

Why not make the story better by actually handing over the mercedes to the honourable miniser but retain the papers until iit is fully paid for. In the meantime you run short of money and get a loan from a bank and show the car as security i.e. the bank becomes co-owner of the car. So eventually the bank gets the car sold and the right honourable minister has to walk to his office.



My advice to the minister: next time come and see me before you enter into such deals and learn how to safeguard your investment. Actually ministers get their cars free of charge including free petrol and chauffer but lts say he got the second car for his wife and children. Poor thing

ismet

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
06/11/2008 23:14

Ismet

There you go, a business is born! So the only person that loses (not the government minister of course, one has to be a touch circumspect) is the poor customer. Well serves him right for not asking the right questions. He could have sought legal advice ( hey, I'd even have sent him to my own lawyer, how's that for friendliness?) Not that the lawyer would have given him the right advice, well how could he? Didn't get asked the right questions!

Three cheers for TRNC law & it's protection for us businessmen.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
06/11/2008 23:28

Roll Up, Roll Up, get yer mercs here, free villa with every merc, Roll Up Roll Up.

w26kay



Joined: 14/10/2007
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
07/11/2008 00:09

Thanks Hector for the link. Sorry been busy working. Well us UK lawyers have to actually put the hours in to earn a crust you know Unlike our TRNC counterparts who do little or nothing for a big fat fee!

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 1487

Message Posted:
07/11/2008 01:26

Lawyers don't have a duty to their customers?



Ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha!



Lem

w26kay



Joined: 14/10/2007
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
07/11/2008 01:31

Lawyers don't have customers. Shops have customers.

joandjelly


Joined: 24/02/2008
Posts: 2953

Message Posted:
07/11/2008 02:34

Interesting point Kay (msg 96). We signed contracts in Apr 04, landowner takes out mortgage Oct 05 before the last house on site was sold (although the purchaser's advocate said land was unencumbered!) Original value of mortgage was 100,000ytl. Description of the mortgage in the bank's paperwork describes it as agricultural land, no mention of any development even though 13 houses already existed. Landowner has 3 villas on the site, 1 of which has been for sale but not sold. I assume the landowner thought he would easily sell the villa and pay off the mortgage no problem. Not one penny has been paid back (lender is a friend of the landowner). Value of outstanding mortgage is now in the region of 320,000ytl (great interest rate). Lender has taken landowner and developer (who co-signed the mortgage but did not have any of the money) to court. Not sure of the exact outcome but Developer seems happy and says that the court ruled that the amount of interest applied was unfair.

joandjelly


Joined: 24/02/2008
Posts: 2953

Message Posted:
07/11/2008 02:40

Continued from 109. We have consulted a lawyer (haha) who says that in his view the lender has no right to the increased value of the land with the 13 properties on it - he calls it "unlawful enhancement" - and that the landowner's unsold villa is more than enough to cover the mortgage. Now waiting to see if we can go to court to get the mortgage moved to this single property.

w26kay



Joined: 14/10/2007
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
07/11/2008 03:44

I have heard of worse than that. Signed contracts - no encumbrances, 3 years later hear mortgage on land before contract signed. Same lawyers names keep cropping up ..... Oh stuff it what the hell are they gonna do to me?

Nothing and actually I don't really care!

Fazilete Ozdenefe Girne Do not use this lawyer.

cocos


Joined: 04/04/2008
Posts: 129

Message Posted:
07/11/2008 07:53

Dont use Gurkan and Gurkan they have ripped off their customers too and failed to tell them about mortgages

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
07/11/2008 08:26

Perhaps if one firm of Advocates, lead the way by taking out professional Indemnity Insurance and allying themselves with HPBG they would clean up



They would have to issue a letter of appointment outlining the services they were to provide, and the charges involved.



All others would have to follow suit they wished to stay in business.!



just my thoughts, thats all,



wyn

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
07/11/2008 10:22

cocos



we used gurkan & gurkan!



they did not rip us off! (but then we didn't leave our brains in the uk.)



we have title deeds (pre 74 turkish) in our name.



no problems to report.



slagging off lawyers is a dangerous game to play in the trnc.



was someone not being taken to court by a lawyer for just that?



i will add that akan gurkan is very respected by the tc community.



they say his only crime is that he loves money.

Chessman


Joined: 13/05/2008
Posts: 486

Message Posted:
07/11/2008 16:45

Wyn



I doubt if you would find an underwriter to take it on. I wouldn't!

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
07/11/2008 18:17

Fire starter

'slagging off lawyers is a dangerous game to play in the trnc'



I'm sure you didn't mean that as a threat?

cocos


Joined: 04/04/2008
Posts: 129

Message Posted:
07/11/2008 19:01

Gurkan may be well thought of in the TC community but certainly not the expat community. I'm glad you had a good experience but hundreds haven't. Yes he does love money, to the detriment of his clients!

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
07/11/2008 19:52

Anyway how can one slagg off 'lawyers' in NC when there aren't any?

karakum5c



Joined: 18/03/2008
Posts: 1021

Message Posted:
07/11/2008 22:06

Put all the lawyers up against a wall and shoot them---have to be a very long wall though!

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
07/11/2008 22:38

A simple boycott might be a tad more acceptable.

no1doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
07/11/2008 22:41

I agree Hector- boycott them all!

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
08/11/2008 14:52

hector re post 116

what i am saying is that the last person who slagged of the lawyer was threatened with court action.

akan gurkan is well respected by the tc communtiy, and no doubt related to most of them. who all work in various goverment departments.

he is also well respected by the police.

i have been told this by a friend who is a policeman.

if i were ever to get into trouble ,i know he is the man who i would get to represent me.

if people want to name and shame thats their choice, all i am saying is be carefull .

you don't know who is watching this website.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
08/11/2008 19:45

'you don't know who is watching this website'

Pity if they are watching, that 'they' haven't taken action to put right the wrongs that are being aired here.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
08/11/2008 19:55

firestarter



you are not suggesting that there is nepotism in the kktc are you .



shame on you

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
08/11/2008 23:06

musin,



You are some things but never ironic.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
10/11/2008 19:14

So how exactly can one call oneself a 'lawyer' or advocate in NC? Any qualifications needed? Can you rely on ones cousin twice removed once knowing someone who had an O level in law? I was interested to see that the South has very similar problems ( http://www.cyprus-property-action-group.net/ ) and wondered why both sides of the border don't start lobbying MEP's for a solution?

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
10/11/2008 19:24

A general comment to all, if there are no solicitors in the TRNC, then why do the estate agents, and I am talking of the british ones not inform prospective punters of this, they advise us which 'solicitor' to use...having said this, the estate agents here are just as corrupt!

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
10/11/2008 19:27

I was told by my 'trust in me' TC estate agent that no need to worry Cypriot law is based on English law. To be fair he did say no need to use a lawyer, so he got one thing right.

Aga Buyers A G


Joined: 04/10/2007
Posts: 488

Message Posted:
10/11/2008 19:29

There are NO SOLICITORS in North Cyprus just Lawyers and Advocates.



To call yourself a solicitor means that you have to be a member of the British Law Society - I Think - If I am wrong I am sure I will be corrected. But NO LAWYERS in the TRNC are members of the British Law Society



ABAG



http://latchfords.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!AED4FE7679CA3C33!1391.entry

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
10/11/2008 19:45

I reiterate my question. What qualifications does someone need to call themselves a lawyer or advocate in NC? Is it a criminal offence to call oneself such if not so qualified? (It is a criminal offence in the UK to call yourself a solicitor if you aren't so qualified).

stevemac


Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 99

Message Posted:
10/11/2008 19:53

Sadly they don't care about the law here. Last week the bar assoc admits they dont have a duty of care. This week in Cyprus Today the head of the construction union and estate agents union ignore the fact they've done absooutely nothing to sort out their rogue members. What next weeK? They've run the construction business into the ground and blamed buyers for the problems. Are they finally starting to see the light?

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
10/11/2008 20:17

Surely if you took a advocate to court, then the court would decide whether a duty of care existed between the parties. eg



If the Advocate said I will sort this out for you, and you will have a beautiful home in the sun



(as ours did) then his duty of care is established . Sue the --------- if they do not do what they undertook to. You went to them to advise on and ensure that you comply with, the prevailing legal situation in the TRNC.



My view, that is all! Ismet, I would appreciate your view on my take of the situation.



wyn

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
10/11/2008 20:29

Hector,

I went to the offices of Digiturk this morning and handed over my receiver and cancelled my membership. While I was waiting for my turn I listened to the lady there trying to satisfy a new 85 year old lady client. somebody from the service did go to her home yesterday and explained everything to her but not good enough. She wanted someone from the service to go to her house immediately and show her *properly* this time. The young lady was exasperated. Sghe asked if the old şady had a neighbour who could come to the telephone and she would explain to her. No, it was not good enough, she demanded that somebody went to her home *immediately* and show her properly how to use the box and the remote control. The young lady was almost in tear when she put the phone down.



I tried to calm her and told her a joke about a policeman who was happy with his job. the pay waas bad and the hours terrible but he was happy becaue in his job "The customer was always wrong"!!! I helped her

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
10/11/2008 20:31

to put on a smile.



Hector, now I feel the same as this young lady, I am not going to tell you or anyone anymore about the qualifications of an advocate. If you really want to know you can do a search on this site or on the other sites and you will find the answer.

ismet

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
10/11/2008 20:38

Msg. 132



Wyn,

Put yourself in the place of the judge. He will have to decide on your word against the advocate's word!!! You will need something more substantial than spoken and forgotten words to act on. However, coming back to my pet subject again, if you can prove that a certain advocate acted for a great majoity of buyers for a particular developer and if the contracts were heavily in favour of the developer, then you can establish a conflict of interest and irregularity and ask for compensation. Do you see what I am getting at?

ismet

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
10/11/2008 22:13

Ismet

"Put yourself in the place of the judge. He will have to decide on your word against the advocate's word!!! You will need something more substantial than spoken and forgotten words to act on."



Would not a judge take the view that any transaction or service for payment would include a duty of care, and while not written in ,could come under custom and practice.



If I serviced your car and it subsequently crashed due to my carelessness,I dont think you would have to prove to a judge that I had told you I had taken on a duty of care when you employed me .Iam sure he would rule that the duty of care was part and parcel of any deal regardless of who said what.



I believe in UK that lawyers and surveyors have a duty of care when transacting on your home purchase and many have indeed lost in court.



I wouldnt pretend to know much about the law, but is malpractise by doctors or lawyers not due to lack of care usually.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
10/11/2008 23:26

Girne,

As you put it

"Would not a judge take the view that any transaction or service for payment would include a duty of care, and while not written in ,could come under custom and practice. "



Custom and practice is very important here. What is the custom and practice of the locals? They go to a lawyer to represent them in court and occasionally for drawing up a contract as they ask. Conveyancing is very new for lawyers here and there is no custom or practice.



Who imposed the name of "Solictors" to advocates? After numerous warnings on this board and others, some people still prefer to call them solicitors. Do you get my point?

ismet

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
10/11/2008 23:43

I think people are missing the point. The TRNC is not recognised by any other country in the world apart from its creator, Turkey. TRNC courts and laws are equally unrecognised under several United Nations resolutions. So it follows that anyone practising "law" there is also unrecognised.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
10/11/2008 23:48

Pikey,



You may just be right, at this point in time! But what if the talks fail, and both sides go their own way?

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
11/11/2008 16:08

musin re post 124

you tell me your a turkish cypriot. if you are you should clearly know what goes on here in the trnc!

elko,

i totally agree with you.

in the uk cout room hear say is just that. proof and documentary evidence is how it is decided.

i do know two judge's one here and one in the uk. both i think go by the guidelines set down for them within their own legal systems.

i think the problem is with the estate agents who tell buyers that people are solicitors, then they expect a service like they would get in the uk.

they don't realise that the laws and practices are different in the trnc.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
11/11/2008 22:24

Ismet

Your apparent reluctance to simply spell out what qualifications you need to be an advocate in NC disappoints me. Quite what you were trying to say in message 133 escapes me. Is this a taboo subject? Isn't your wife an advocate?

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
11/11/2008 22:54

Hector,

Have a look at msg no. 7, one of many similar that I posted in the past.

http://www.cyprus44.com/forums/5261.asp

ismet

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
11/11/2008 22:59

Ismet

'Anyone with a law degree may be called a lawyer but in order to become an Advocate in Cyprus (both north and south) you must have approved legal qualifications, have one year training with an advocate who has a minimum of 5 years practice and also pass the Bar exam.'



What are 'approved legal qualifications' and which 'Bar exam' is it?

Where would having a UK law degree and Law Society Diploma in Legal Practice (Solicitors) put me?

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
11/11/2008 23:13

Hector,

I am not sure about the Law Society Diploma but a university degee in law from UK or a "Barrister in Law" from the inns in UK are acceptable qualifications. I think the Legal Council made up of High Court Judges, the Attorney General, a legal representative from parliament and a legal representative from Bar Association decide which university law degrees are acceptable. The Bar examination is in the offical language of TRNC i.e. in Turkish. I am not sure if one needs to be a TRNC citizen.

ismet

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
12/11/2008 07:29

Correction: it should have been "Barrister at Law". I wonder what the Barrister in Law would mean

ismet

mountbatten


Joined: 12/04/2008
Posts: 102

Message Posted:
12/11/2008 13:05

Maybe the answer is ,Henry V1 (PART 2 ) by William Shakespeare

I rest my case me lord

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
12/11/2008 13:22

mountbatten, maybe not!



Ironically, the rallying cry of the lawyer bashers has become Shakespeare’s

quote from Henry VI: “THE FIRST THING WE DO, LET’S KILL ALL THE

LAWYERS.”

Those who use this phrase pejoratively against lawyers are as miserably

misguided about their Shakespeare as they are about the judicial system which

they disdain so freely.

Even a cursory reading of the context in which the lawyer killing statement

is made in King Henry VI, Part II, (Act IV), Scene 2, reveals that Shakespeare

was paying great and deserved homage to our venerable profession as the front line defenders of democracy.

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
12/11/2008 13:31

Firestarter



"they don't realise that the laws and practices are different in the trnc.".

Agree ,thats the problem.Trouble is, just about all sites to do with property ,state as an advantage to buying in TRNC ,the law is loosely based on UK law.



On another point I find it incredible that we have such a big thread on basically asking if someone ,call him lawyer, advocate, notary, who cares ,should have a duty of care in doing what he has been paid to do.

While we can argue the finer points of duties of solicitor or lawyer ,it doesnt look good for any potential purchaser to see that regardless, of what the person is called,he is not obliged to protect your interests ,especially doesnt look good when they find out they will have to pay 2-3 times the uk rate for a service that only exists in the customers mind.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
12/11/2008 13:54

girne 29. Good post - thoroughly agree with you.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
12/11/2008 15:03

yes girne & doyen

i leave my uk lawyer to just get on with things and have never had a problem yet.

always give him a bottle of scotch every xmas and pay him on time.

it looks grim for anyone buying here at the moment because at the end of the day you pay your money and just hope for the best.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
12/11/2008 15:32

You can't fail to have confidence in a Solicitor that is bound by a code of conduct and is regulated byThe Solicitors Regulation Authority.

breezyboy


Joined: 14/05/2007
Posts: 1179

Message Posted:
12/11/2008 16:00

Maybe a question for Kay.

If an advocate practicing in TRNC does so advertising their UK qualifications, then can they be reported to the Law society in the Uk for a lack of duty of care and conflict of interest.

mountbatten


Joined: 12/04/2008
Posts: 102

Message Posted:
12/11/2008 17:36

no1Doyen

Correct you are,i quoted someone off the tv,to be honest,unlike yourself,i really do not have the time or interest with shakespear to search google.

It goes to show even tv get it wrong

Enjoy your shakespear

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
12/11/2008 19:56

henryking: "it must be the turkish in me"



Have you had much in you recently? Perhaps that could be the root of your problem.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
12/11/2008 22:24

Let me sum up then. Basically it appears that anyone can set themselves up as a lawyer in NC. Best if they have a law degree (where or how obtained is another issue I expect). Who regulates or checks these qualifications?



In the UK once having passed said law degree you either then take the solicitors Legal Practice Course or the barristers Bar Vocational Course. That is then followed by on the job training for 2 years. Solicitors (qualified) are then entered on 'the Rolls' of the law Society. Barristers are 'called to the Bar.'

Both are then subject to regulation and disciplinary rules and indemnity insurance.



You will see somewhat of a difference to what Ismet (whose wife I believe is an advocate in NC) describes for legal qualifications to be an lawyer/advocate in NC.

Basically I think we have all worked out that 'lawyers' (I use the generic term) in NC may not have credible qualifications, training or experience. Nor are they regulated, supervised or have indemnity insuran

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 00:17

Spot on Hector,



At least ,thanks to threads like this, potential purchasers are at least made aware of the situation, before making the decision to buy or not,

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
16/11/2008 19:09

I thought that someone may have jumped to the defence of the NC 'lawyers' to prove me wrong. Unfortunately not. The 'elephant in the room' is that you cannot rely on anyone calling themselves a lawyer or advocate in NC having proper qualifications or training (as in the UK). Nor are they regulated or subject to disciplinary rules. Nor do they have indemnity insurance if they give you bad advice or defraud you. What a disgrace in a civilised country! How does that reflect on the NC government?

Bigcheese


Joined: 12/01/2009
Posts: 51

Message Posted:
21/01/2009 22:18

I think people should take some responsibility for checking out the lawyer's qualifications themselves before instructing them. In the UK we're used to someone else checking everything for us.In Cyprus you can't just assume that titles such as 'advocate' etc have the same meaning or are subject to the same requirements/restrictions as in other countries. You should always ask them where they studied what degree that got etc. Ask them for a written letter confirming what they will actually be carrying out for you. There is one lawyer who has been on this forum in person claiming to be a lawyer. However when you look on their website, it is clear that they do not have a law degree. They have a degree in European Business Law, which, in the UK anyway (not sure about the TRNC, but maybe Ismet can clarify this) is not acceptable for entry as a solicitor or barrister without first doing a conversion course. The information is out there if you take the time to look and ask the right questions

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
22/01/2009 10:02

In the UK,if you misrepresent yourself as a solicitor or a doctor,you go to jail.There again,they have electricity,Sky TV,phone land lines,roads with tarmac...................jail sounds good to me!

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
22/01/2009 10:18

If doctors worked on the same principal,none of us would be here!hen you take the coin of a person,who requests your advice,hether specific ,or generic,you all have a duty of care,my learned friends!

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
22/01/2009 10:29

Thats a very glib answer!As I said,you take the coin from a person requesting advice,whether specific ,or generic,you have a duty of care to them.Accepting monies from people in order for them to buy a property,means that you contractually respresent their best interests,and also have a duty to divulge any conflict of interest.If you do not ,you should not accept their coin.To do so is fraud.........in anyones currency!

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
22/01/2009 10:46

There doesnt actually appear to be any cohesive TRNC property law.Fraud is legal,according to our learned friend Ismet!

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
22/01/2009 10:55

Not just in the eyes of the layman,my learned friend.This situation is fraud in the UK and most countries that accept their legal precepts from British jurisprudence.

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
22/01/2009 10:58

And of course you couldnt change the law retrospectively...............could you.I suppose it depends on whose pocket is being picked!

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
22/01/2009 11:11

Please,please,please do not believe nything an estate agent says in TRNC,UK,Spain.........or anywhere on the panet Earth.They are professional valitudinarians!

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
22/01/2009 11:15

In modern day context,that could represent defenders of their wallets/bank accounts!

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
22/01/2009 11:18

Valetudinarians!

That's a first for me....never heard it used ever in my 49 years!



valetudinarian - weak or sickly person especially one morbidly concerned with his or her health





This place is an education

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
22/01/2009 11:23

In other words,in NC,the Law is "there aint no Law"!

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
22/01/2009 11:29

It is a humble pleasure to educate,in whatever walk of life we take,but it a greater pleasure to make your acquaintance!

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
08/07/2009 16:36

Hi Ismet

A very interesting statement. You state: Locals normally used go to a Tapu agent for conveyancing and pay a few bob for the services and get the title deeds straight away. With the advent of off plan houses, they would get a share kocan and safeguard themselves to some extend. Most locals consult lawyers after they have signed the contract put forward by the developer'

Why does this not apply to others?

What is a Tapu agent and how do you contact one?