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TRNCVaughan

Joined: 27/04/2008 Posts: 4578
Message Posted: 13/07/2011 15:31 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 2 of 41 in Discussion |
| Seems a very reasonable offer, which is bound to be thrown back in Turkeys face. |
greylag

Joined: 08/04/2009 Posts: 1110
Message Posted: 13/07/2011 17:39 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 3 of 41 in Discussion |
| I think the days of throwing things back @ Turkey could be numbered, Grey. |
erolz

Joined: 17/11/2008 Posts: 3456
Message Posted: 13/07/2011 17:45 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 4 of 41 in Discussion |
| The problem is that Turkey already signed agreements to open its ports to the RoC that did not contain any conditions, like the EU making good on it's pledges to end the isolation of the TC community in Cyprus. It can and no doubt will continue to try and create 'linkage' between these issues, but it DID sign the agreements to open the prots and they do NOT have any such linkage in them. |
greylag

Joined: 08/04/2009 Posts: 1110
Message Posted: 13/07/2011 19:09 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 5 of 41 in Discussion |
| If they did open them,it would tick a lot of the boxes that the E.U. are waiting for them to fulfil, Grey. |
greylag

Joined: 08/04/2009 Posts: 1110
Message Posted: 13/07/2011 19:11 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 6 of 41 in Discussion |
| In fact it would remove seven out of the eight chapters that have been frozen, Grey. |
TRNCVaughan

Joined: 27/04/2008 Posts: 4578
Message Posted: 14/07/2011 09:41 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 7 of 41 in Discussion |
| What's the eighth one, and what would it take to free it up? |
Troodo

Joined: 12/06/2008 Posts: 1002
Message Posted: 14/07/2011 09:53 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 8 of 41 in Discussion |
| Turkey signed the agreement at the last, urged by the UK; a codicil was added that they did not recognizes the roc. This seems to be completely ignored. |
mikelapta


Joined: 20/11/2008 Posts: 2186
Message Posted: 14/07/2011 09:56 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 9 of 41 in Discussion |
| Paul,I really enjoyed all the articles in the paper. I'm sure Turkey can do no more at this stage,by opening up Mersin or wherever to the Greeks. And see what happens in the 3 months after that. Surely the Greeks demands for land both West and East of TRNC is so they will have more coastal waters and thus access to whatever is uner the seas |
newlad


Joined: 02/03/2008 Posts: 7819
Message Posted: 14/07/2011 11:57 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 10 of 41 in Discussion |
| Re-mess 7,TRNC Vaughan, I think the eigth one is to do with agriculture,and is blocked by the French.I will do some more digging,lol, Re-mess 9, Glad you enjoyed them Mike, Paul. |
mikelapta


Joined: 20/11/2008 Posts: 2186
Message Posted: 14/07/2011 12:02 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 11 of 41 in Discussion |
| Paul,the French are against the agricultural refoms. I have come from Wales,and we had trouble with sheep exports to France. I,ve never drunk French wine since !!!! Every other country has benefitted Mike |
newlad


Joined: 02/03/2008 Posts: 7819
Message Posted: 14/07/2011 12:12 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 12 of 41 in Discussion |
| "Agriculture and rural development" will continue to remain in suspense,due to obstacles imposed by France. Troodo,mess 8, Not sure i am understandining your post correctly.Turkey do not recognise R.O.C. and wont until embargoes on Northern Cyprus are lifted.Sorry if i have misunderstood you, Paul. |
mmmmmm


Joined: 19/12/2008 Posts: 8398
Message Posted: 14/07/2011 12:34 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 13 of 41 in Discussion |
| Mikelapta re 9 All TR's ports are open to the Greeks... you mean Cypriots, of course... don't encourage 'em ;) the FACT is that TR signed an accord as part of joining the EU and has reneged on it - TR KNEW that the 'rump' RoC had acceded to the EU and signed, THEN started making demands.. The UN resolutions re 'TRNC' prohibit manoeuvring on this issue... the smart thing to do would have been to gain membership and then TR citizens / goods could move freely around Cyprus.. |
andre514

Joined: 05/10/2010 Posts: 763
Message Posted: 14/07/2011 12:36 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 14 of 41 in Discussion |
| message 10: that single minor chapter blocked by france is highly significant, ...while the eight blocked by greece/cyprus are of little moment how so? according to the latter, turkey can still join if it leaves the island: though the turkish government has repeated time and again that cyprus is not negociable and I for one doubt they'll surrender it, under any imaginable circumstances and the eu has shown it can be quite flexible on the cyprus issue ie the island acceeded to the eu "despite" it still being divided yes, the cyprob is of long standing and very bitter, yet greece/greek cypriots are basically supportive of turkey joining but opposition from france, and germany, austria, netherlands etc is based on the organic undying hostility of most of their voters, as well as real fears on behalf of the eu leadership it could even be out-voted and lose to a britain/turkey bloc on critical issues ...paradoxically, that may be why britain wants turkey " |
andre514

Joined: 05/10/2010 Posts: 763
Message Posted: 14/07/2011 12:39 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 15 of 41 in Discussion |
| ..."in" the eu and it could even apply to sweden as well or at least their foreign minister who infuriated sarkozy last year |
Troodo

Joined: 12/06/2008 Posts: 1002
Message Posted: 14/07/2011 15:16 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 16 of 41 in Discussion |
| Newlad. You are quite right, and Turkey made that clear when they signed the protocol. They were not going to sign, and the UK suggested at the last moment that a codicil was added stating that Turkey did not recognizes the roc. On this basis and this basis only, Turkey signed. How can they now accuse Turkey of failing the protocol? |
greylag

Joined: 08/04/2009 Posts: 1110
Message Posted: 14/07/2011 19:06 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 17 of 41 in Discussion |
| Havent Turkey offered this gesture before, Grey. |
Troodo

Joined: 12/06/2008 Posts: 1002
Message Posted: 14/07/2011 23:29 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 18 of 41 in Discussion |
| Back to top. |
andre514

Joined: 05/10/2010 Posts: 763
Message Posted: 15/07/2011 01:15 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 19 of 41 in Discussion |
| greylag, turkey is offering "a" gesture in planning to ditch the talks, but probably not the one you had in mind unless two fingers are involved |
newlad


Joined: 02/03/2008 Posts: 7819
Message Posted: 21/07/2011 20:01 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 20 of 41 in Discussion |
| Andre, Looks like Turkey are finally talking Turkey.Now the rest of Europe know where they stand on the matter.They cannot put it any plainer then yesterdays statement from Erdogan.All they are actually doing is what Ban ki moon has asked of them.Only 12 weeks to October,exciting times, Paul. |
mmmmmm


Joined: 19/12/2008 Posts: 8398
Message Posted: 21/07/2011 20:05 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 21 of 41 in Discussion |
| Paul We've seen many 'train crash' deadlines past.. The problem is TURKEY signed a document and TURKEY can't go back on that without destroying the customs union in it's entirety.. |
EricCrapton


Joined: 30/12/2010 Posts: 325
Message Posted: 21/07/2011 20:09 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 22 of 41 in Discussion |
| The Greek Cypriot Government are pig ignorant and full of hot air, so peoples don't hold your breaths! Anyways, there may be some big changes on the way on the 'other' side and October is years away! |
Patara29

Joined: 21/04/2010 Posts: 49
Message Posted: 21/07/2011 20:13 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 23 of 41 in Discussion |
| What do you think?If Turkey entered Cyprus from behind would Greece help?! |
EricCrapton


Joined: 30/12/2010 Posts: 325
Message Posted: 21/07/2011 20:43 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 24 of 41 in Discussion |
| Sounds rude to me! |
newlad


Joined: 02/03/2008 Posts: 7819
Message Posted: 21/07/2011 21:08 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 25 of 41 in Discussion |
| Hi Mark re- mess 21, Point taken,but there is an old saying my friend.An eye for an eye,and a tooth for a tooth.The E.U.have hardly played ball with the people of Northern Cyprus have they.Broken promises of the lifting of embargoes spring to mind.Turkey have now drawn the line in the sand,lets see who crosses it, Paul. |
Turtle

Joined: 28/05/2007 Posts: 2669
Message Posted: 21/07/2011 21:34 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 26 of 41 in Discussion |
| Paul You know its a one way street on this subject, its all about what the ROC want and nothing more |
newlad


Joined: 02/03/2008 Posts: 7819
Message Posted: 21/07/2011 22:04 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 27 of 41 in Discussion |
| Things have now taken a turn Tats.The ROC will soon be small fish,with Turkey swimming in a different pond, Paul. |
mmmmmm


Joined: 19/12/2008 Posts: 8398
Message Posted: 21/07/2011 22:11 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 28 of 41 in Discussion |
| re 25 Paul I simply don't agree - the EU have been hamstrung by the UN Security Council Resolution in place since 1983 regarding the ( non ) status of 'TRNC' Turkey KNEW this and signed the customs accord KNOWING that the RoC was already a member of the EU The EU have made sure some funding gets to TCs - despite the fact that the RoC was a net contributing state - so you could say the RoC has helped fund some of the projects TCs can and do cross the Green line and EU Citizens can so so - having entered via a non recognised port of Entry These are things that would NEVER have happened without the EU . re 26 Turtle As with above - if the RoC was getting all it's own way the things pointed out above wouldn't be happening.. The KEY - as ever - is that UN resolution |
erolz

Joined: 17/11/2008 Posts: 3456
Message Posted: 21/07/2011 22:25 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 29 of 41 in Discussion |
| MM have to disagree with you. The EU Council the primary body of the EU that sets policy made a pledge in 2006 "The Council is determined to put an end to the isolation of the Turkish Cypriot community and to facilitate the reunification of Cyprus by encouraging the economic development of the Turkish Cypriot community. The Council invited the Commission to bring forward comprehensive proposals to this end, with particular emphasis on the economic integration of the island and on improving contact between the two communities and with the EU.” The EU council made this pledge KNOWING the UN resolutions that existed. The EU comission, the body designed to draft plans to implement this policy did not say 'the policy can not be implemented because of the UN resolutions'. It did in fact draft comprehensive proposals for 'direct trade', again drafted in the full knowledge of existing UN resolutions. These plans were perfect compatible with international law and UN resolutions [cont] |
erolz

Joined: 17/11/2008 Posts: 3456
Message Posted: 21/07/2011 22:30 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 30 of 41 in Discussion |
| in its expert view. They can be seen here http://www.ktto.net/english/directtraderegulation.doc That they have not been sucsessfuly implemented is not down to the fact that UN resolutions stop them from being implemented but down to the RoC blocking their implementation. |
erolz

Joined: 17/11/2008 Posts: 3456
Message Posted: 21/07/2011 22:38 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 31 of 41 in Discussion |
| And for the record, even though the EU Council of ministers meeting of 2006 that agreed the policy of 'determined to put an end to the isolation of the Turkish Cypriot community.....' was shortly before the RoC joined the EU, A RoC minister was there at the meeting and as a Country on the verge of entry, signed this policy document along with represntatives of all the other EU member states and soon to be member states. The EU council set the policy. The comission drew up plans to achieve the policy. The comission plans had two elements 'aid' and 'trade'. Aid was implemented, trade still has not been implemented and not because of the UN resolutions but because of blocking by the RoC. THe Comission proposals were drawn up in full knowledge of the status of the TRNC and found perfectly workable solutions to allow direct trade regardless of the staus of the TRNC as per UN resolutions. Same solutions that basically are allowing the RoC to buy electiricty from the North in fact. |
Turtle

Joined: 28/05/2007 Posts: 2669
Message Posted: 21/07/2011 22:58 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 32 of 41 in Discussion |
| Mark, I didn't say the RoC was getting it all its own way I said the WANT it all thier own way. There is a difference |
erolz

Joined: 17/11/2008 Posts: 3456
Message Posted: 21/07/2011 23:12 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 33 of 41 in Discussion |
| I should point out the dates in my posts 29 and 31 should be 2004 and not 2006. Sorry. |
erolz

Joined: 17/11/2008 Posts: 3456
Message Posted: 21/07/2011 23:22 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 34 of 41 in Discussion |
| Just to add This is what the UN Secretary General himself said in 2004, in UN document S/2004/437 "The Turkish Cypriot vote has undone any rationale for pressuring and isolating them." "In this context and for that purpose and not for the purpose of affording recognition or assisting secession, I would hope they can give a strong lead to all States to cooperate both bilaterally and in international bodies to eliminate unnecessary restrictions and barriers that have the effect of isolating the Turkish Cypriots and impeding their development, deeming such a move as consistent with Security Council resolutions 541 (1983) and 550 (1984)." So I do not believe that what is stopping the EU from making good on its pledges is the UN resolution 550 (1984) as you suggest MM. The SG himslef said that eliminating barries and restrictions that have the effect of isolating TC and impeding their development was consistent with UN resolution 550. |
newlad


Joined: 02/03/2008 Posts: 7819
Message Posted: 22/07/2011 08:43 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 35 of 41 in Discussion |
| Hi Mark, Take on board your posts,but please answer me this.If the Greek Cypriots blocked the settlement in 2004.Why do they enjoy ALL the benefits of EU membership, Paul. |
EricCrapton


Joined: 30/12/2010 Posts: 325
Message Posted: 22/07/2011 09:04 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 36 of 41 in Discussion |
| Are you talking about benefits to the Greek Cypriot government or the ordinary person out on the street? Because there is much dis-content amongst the GC community on many problems bought on by entry to EU. If a survey asked a GC what is the biggest issue since joining EU, the answer would in almost every case be the cost of liviing! Benefits are mostly commercial, export, import etc. |
mmmmmm


Joined: 19/12/2008 Posts: 8398
Message Posted: 22/07/2011 11:19 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 37 of 41 in Discussion |
| Hi Paul re msg 35 >>If the Greek Cypriots blocked the settlement in 2004.Why do they enjoy ALL the benefits of EU membership ?<< Because the RoC is the only recognised govt... Again, they have NOT had it there own way.. On accession the Green Line Regs were supposed to allow freedom of movement for all EU Citizens - no matter how they 'arrived' on the island. This is why I'm really interested in what happens with Eric Crapton's case... I cannot see how his vehicles ( if complying with use on an EU highway) can be stopped from crossing - the port of entry should be irrelevant. |
mmmmmm


Joined: 19/12/2008 Posts: 8398
Message Posted: 22/07/2011 11:22 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 38 of 41 in Discussion |
| re ErolZ 29-34 Thanks for the comprehensive answer, with links.. ! However, the EU, EC, ECHR are all hamstrung by the UN Security Council Resolutions - take for example the property issue - The fact that the TCs effectively voted to end their claim to be an independent state in Apr 2004 ( and that the GCs effectively voted to maintain it's de facto ( although not de jure) existence can't change the FACT that until the Sec Council resolution is overturned the RoC is the only recognised govt. They ( the 'rump' RoC) have been holding up the distribution of aid processes - claiming they have jurisdiction. Do the EU regret letting in part of CY join - OF COURSE.. but the deed is done, and it will take some major shift of policy from Russia / and China to bring about the mechanism to 'reward' TCs :( |
newlad


Joined: 02/03/2008 Posts: 7819
Message Posted: 22/07/2011 20:31 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 39 of 41 in Discussion |
| Yes i was refering to trading benefits re- mess 36,Eric (great name by the way) Cheers Mark re- mess 37.So even though the Tcs voted yes,they still get penalised.What about all the broken promises since 2004, Paul. |
erolz

Joined: 17/11/2008 Posts: 3456
Message Posted: 22/07/2011 20:54 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 40 of 41 in Discussion |
| MM as usual I think we agree on the main. I just do not accept that the UN resolutions are the reason why things like direct trade or even non stop flights have not happened. Of course they are the reason why the TRNC can not be recognised, but you can not be recognised and yet still have direct trade and even non stop flights. The issue is will, or lack of it from principaly the RoC and not a legal impediment. The EU comission clearly believed that direct trade between TC community and EU was possible despite the staus of the TRNC as a result of UN resolutions in 83 and 84 and without implying recognition of the TRNC. So did the UN SG. So do I. |
philbailey

Joined: 17/01/2011 Posts: 3534
Message Posted: 23/07/2011 15:46 | Join or Login to Reply | Message 41 of 41 in Discussion |
| The thing I find strange is that most people want a solution except those who have bought property both north and south (conversation from my local kebab house ) |
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