Pool costs?

philnles


Joined: 11/08/2008
Posts: 413

Message Posted:
12/11/2008 18:22

Does anyone have any ideas of the maintenance cost of a 12 by 6 metre pool,electric, chemicals,water top up etc. Thank you.

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
12/11/2008 19:42

12 by 6 meter = 72 square meter x 5 cm a week evaporation in summer = 4 -5 tonnes a week for waterin summer = 20 permonth times (average) 6 month = 120 tonnes, plus every week at least 2 tonnes for backwash = another 100 tonnes which you cannot use for your garden as the plants will die. water costs are 5? lira a ton.. = 400 stg a year for water---

pool pump: your pool is approx 1,50? deep= 100 m³, a overflow? another 10 tonnes = 110 to. your pump must circulate these 110 tonnes a day, in summer more. you need a 1,5 kw pump, in average running 6 hours a day = approx 10 kw/h a day on 0,65 lira (highest rate, incl all by costs as VAT) = 6,50 lira a day and 2400 lira a year = around 1000 stg. makes 1400 stg.

chemicals i need to guess as i dont use this dirty, hazardous stuff= 30-50 stg a month?



plus maintenance if you dont want to clean yourself...30, 40 a month?

so, think about 120 to 150 stg every month

pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
12/11/2008 20:32

Good info Kibsolar, never relised how much it costs me. thanks p

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
12/11/2008 20:45

Fit a pool cover and drastically reduce your water evaporation... by up to 95%.



We only needed a few top-ups all summer long......



Reduced dirt in the water too....



Reduced cleaning time...



Reduced chemical usage....



Saved precious water....



No brainer

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
12/11/2008 21:03

but you hardly can save the circulation time= electricity...that you only could do with using solar power...

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
12/11/2008 22:26

Yes you can reduce circulation time...



People I know have halved the time their pumps are on with no ill-effects..



I'm not against solar power... in fact I'm all for it... that's why I use a solar pool cover... water 5 degrees above pool without..

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
12/11/2008 23:24

halved running time?

why not quarter it, maybe 20% will do? or 10?

energy saving put into practice?

sorry, there are rules for maintaining a pool and if you dont follow them you will put your health in danger.

if the "people you know" reduce the running times of the pump=circulation, they have to use more chemicals or the added chemicals can not work properly or...or..and that certainly will be including ill effects, sooner or later.

if you want to save energy, than you have to use a solar runned pool pump.

that makes you run your pump "for nothing" after 5 to 6 years.

stewy


Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 279

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 04:47

Pool costs I think 2 YTL at the Pine Bay. Darts are free.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 05:08

chemicals i need to guess as i dont use this dirty, hazardous stuff= 30-50 stg a month? dont know how you get to that more like a £10

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 07:07

I only use a little chlorine via a salted-water chlorinator... cost little.



I only use a little sodium bisulphite to counteract the hardness of the water cost coppers

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 08:35

Try using silver/copper oxide system like Aligator.

http://www.aligatorswimmingpools.co.uk



You will cut your chlorine down to about a tablespoon-full every day.



We have supplied a few of these now since 9 months ago and they work a treat.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 08:45

how much does it cost

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 09:19

850 pounds supplied and installed.

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 12:11

deecyprus 4



sorry, as i said, i have no idea, it was a guess that good chemicals do cost money, and "just chlorine" will not do the job....



Groucho and all others:

Sodium hydrogen sulfite or sodium bisulfite in contact with chlorine will release harmful fumes.The sulfur kills yeasts, fungi, and bacteria.

Your salt water machine produces equal amounts of sodium chloride and sodium hydroxide, which is extremely caustic, and can react with fats and oils on skin.

For this reason, sodium hydroxide is very dangerous, and skin should be washed thoroughly with water (in a pool!) following contact with this substance.



As it is very important that in your salt water pool the ph level never never should be higher than 8.0, as your machine will loose dramatically in efficiency, you can use hydrocloric acid to control that

to all:

Trihalomethanes - a byproduct of chlorinated water which will cause bladder cancer through inhalation and dermal absorption

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 12:56

BTW: all studies to chlorine in swimming pools can be downloded here: http://www.personngroup.com/x/files/necon/cancer_and_chlorine.pdf http://www.personngroup.com/x/files/necon/chlorination_heart_disease_and_cancer.pdf http://www.personngroup.com/x/files/necon/breathing_problems_in_swimmers.pdf http://www.personngroup.com/x/files/necon/european_strategy_for_chlorine_reduction.pdf http://www.personngroup.com/x/files/necon/risk_of_spontaneous_abortions.pdf http://www.personngroup.com/x/files/necon/new_study_warns_pregnant_women.pdf

Want to go chemical free? Read this: http://www.personngroup.com/x/files/necon/necon_bros_eng_web.pdf

Sunny regards

breezyboy


Joined: 14/05/2007
Posts: 1179

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 13:17

5 YTL per tonne is very cheap. In Esentepe it is 10 - 12 YTL per tonne which makes a big difference to the calculations above.

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 14:09

so breezyboy,

it seems to be very important that at least you can use your backwash water for the garden and not (illegally) dump your chemical contaminated water into the next ravine or flush it down the road.





in your calculation we talk AT LEAST 100 tonnes back wash a year x 10 lira each ton = 400 stg....

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
15/11/2008 08:10

Kibsolar...



Just re-read my post and realise that I have misled you inadvertently.. I use a little Sodium Bisulfate and not Bisulfite.... What a difference there is...



Which perfectly OK for use to reduce alkalinity in swimming pools and does not release harmful fumes and is safe as long as you handle it correctly... i.e. don't let it get ingested or remain in contact with skin. Once it has dissolved it's fine...

brian24001


Joined: 23/03/2008
Posts: 606

Message Posted:
15/11/2008 10:13

You should only need to waste about 1-2 tonnes a year in backwash water.

Backwash to a 1 or 2 ton tank, the water will settle in 3-5 days (or a day with a little floc), drain the now clean water back into the pool. Clean out occasionally, and use a little biocide in the tank to kill of bacteria. The resultant sludge from a few backwashes can be dumped sometime and flushed clean.

Huge saving on water, and in my opinion should be mandatory.

sylvie


Joined: 12/03/2008
Posts: 1081

Message Posted:
15/11/2008 10:13

who sells water 5 YTL per ton ? the cheapest we found is 10YTL !!!!

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
15/11/2008 13:04

oh ,thanks groucho.

but it was maybe a good info for other members to know that for a pool a lot of chemicals are used and that they are harmful.

even if you do a lot of effort as brian, you have to use chemicals and biocides and i doubt that the sludge in the tank is fit to be dumped.

with a must for a back wash twice or trice a week, a 1 or 2 to tank will not be enough as long you are not after it every day.

if you cannot manage to do it like brian water will be expensive. yes, sylvie, 10 lira seem to be more realistic..

the electricity question. i mentioned that you cannot reduce circulation time... and is therefor expensive... go solar!

same applies for the heating of a pool.

altogether you can say that a pool is unexpected difficult, harmful (if you use chemicals) and unexpected expensive.

if the pool owners are not willing to solve these problems soon, a lot of these pools will end up with a cover and will be used as "rain water tanks" for the summer....

sylvie


Joined: 12/03/2008
Posts: 1081

Message Posted:
15/11/2008 14:02

waiting for the info ..... who sells the water 5 ytl a ton !!!!

Cinderella


Joined: 15/11/2008
Posts: 14

Message Posted:
15/11/2008 19:01

Does anyone have a contact for water deliveries in the Esentepe area?

MarkVPiazza


Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 530

Message Posted:
16/11/2008 10:31

Kibrissolar



I use a pool cover like Grouch0



The pool requires far less water as very little evaporation

The water stays much cleaner as very liitle dust or insects

Much less chlorine used as by keeping direct sun off, this stops the clorine evaporating/breaking down.

I have halved the pump time and the water is crystal clear

Backwashing is only needed after several weeks as there is far less dust/dirt to block the filter.



Your information seems more aimed at selling your product, than offering cost effective advice



Mark

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
16/11/2008 20:23

MarkVPiazza,

not 10% of all pool users do find a pool cover acceptable especially in summer.

not 30% of all pool owners are doing the maintenance for their pools themselves and have no clue what the copanies are doing, fe overdosing chemicals and rising filtration times because they dont want to come for the next 3 weeks...thats common practice during winter...

you say "i have halfed" pump time. their are certain requirement for pumping (in cubik meters) and this depends on many things... "halfed" does not mean anything..

you dont backwash, others clear it and dump the sludge...but backwash and dump it is common practice.

you are right, neither i sell chemicals and chlorinators, "bottles with doubtful ingrediences", ozon ot other half working disinfection systems, nor i sell water.

i dont sell heat pumps or wet suits.

i dont even sell pool covers.

but whether you run your pump "full" or "half".... solar pumpimg IS an cost effective alternative. want an offer?

Peter

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
17/11/2008 11:17

Hi Mark,

I can wholeheartedly second kibsolars recommendation to go for a solar powered swimming pool pump. This is not only a very green thing to do but can also allow people not yet on mains to enjoy a healthy pool without running a generator (very un-green).

markvpiazza


Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 530

Message Posted:
17/11/2008 12:40

Not everything that is solar powered is necessarily green



The process of producing solar panels is itself is very "un-green"; this article states that a solar panel will take 10 years to cancel out its own CO2 emissions

http://www.lilo.org.uk/handbook/solarpanelsphotovoltaics



Solar panels used solely for a pool pump, will not be used at anything like 100% capacity. Let's be generous and say only 20% of the panels output will be required to run the pump.



That means the solar panel will have to be in use 50 years before it starts to become "green"



Mark

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
17/11/2008 15:48

I would need to let kibsolar answer this, but my understandiing is that the panel is sized to the pump and is 100% matched when the sun is strongest.

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
17/11/2008 16:48

Solar panels do have a negitive carbon footprint CFP. (as everything produced by means of fossil fuels!!) and they need approx 3-12 years to get rid of this (depends on where you use them- more sun = shorter CFP recovery) So assuming that you choose the right pump with the right panel size, you face payback 4-6 years. By this time in TRNC the crabon footprint will be equalised due to the "green energy" the panels have produced. In the mentioned article (BTW: How old is it?) it says: In UK it takes 10 years! for a 20Wp!! module -> its very inefficient to produce such small modules. bigger ones have a smaller CFP!

FOR UK: * 6.6 years to save SO2 emissions * 6.6 years to save SOx emissions * 7 years to save NOx emissions. / Divide this by 2 and its ok for Cyprus. So why do you think that we face a paybacktime of 50 years? Vaughan: Your are 100% right. The pump and modules are choosen according to the pool size in m3 (tonns)

Regards. Henrik Kibsolar (Peter- did I forgot something??) :-

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
17/11/2008 22:14

Thanks, Henrik, yes you forgot something, and Mark as well.

you forgot to mention that a normal pool pump runs on max 50% efficiency and to supply the pump you have to use "primary energy" (diesel) to produce this electricity. our Teknecik power plant also runs on a max efficiency of 35-max40%.

A standart pump uses 1,1 kw, but its "primary energy use" is 1,8 kw.

our pool pump system is 2,5 times more efficient.

To become green, you have to take this into consideration as well and the "CO2 emission payback" comes a lot earlier than Henrik stated.

Mark, YOUR pump NEVER will cancel out the CO2 emissions, which are, during the lifetime of a solar module of 25 years+, around 22 tons.

greetings to all

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 14:53

good post peter, what about the production conditions of a less quality chinese pool pump?? do they count aswell? what about the CFP of chinese pumps? just wondering... see you soon

Regards, henrik

snakes



Joined: 28/10/2008
Posts: 1512

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 15:10

hello again kb !! would like a chat re solar pumps and other bits please if can have your number ! over tomorrow for week !

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 15:14

These 'solar panels',....what is their life expectancy? Do they come with an insurance backed, full replacement 5-10yr warranty?



If not,... they could turn out to be the most expensive investment.



I do have serious reservations about these 'Green' alternatives. In the UK most people have realised that the 'payback' is so far down the line as to be well beyond the life expectancy of the equipment.





Rob

markvpiazza


Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 530

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 15:19

Rob, agreed



Something that sounds a great money saving idea one year, often doesn't work out that way, e.g Watermaid ;)



Mark

Hatty


Joined: 13/07/2008
Posts: 260

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 15:21

Assuming that the solar panel tracks the sun how large would it have to be to power a pump sufficient for a 10 x 5 pool?

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 16:21

Please see the specifications @ http://www.kibsolar.com go for "downloads" and there choose one of the Enfoton module. They have warranty for full 3 years and additional an output warranty of 80% for 25 years. Since 1999 we never ended up with an non working or broken one!! We have modules in usage more than 9 years, we have bought (2nd hand modlues) to install at our own site which were 15 years old and they are still work today. Just think about the pv modules NASA sent in space with the first satelites. Some (sats) are still working! So cristalline pv modules (poly or mono) have been sucessfully "tested" for over 60 years now.. Its up to you to decide.. So there is no need for "serious reservations about these green alternatives".

Module: http://personngroup.com/x/files/enfoton/EnfMonoChr60E6M+(225-245Wp).pdf

SNAKES: For contact please call Peter on 05338664243 or mail pp@personngroup.com

Regards, Henrik

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 16:33

kibsolar??



They have a warranty for 3 years,... and additional an output warranty of 80% for 25 yrs.??



What's the point in that if they only have a 3 yr warranty?





NASA pv modules?



"The Phoenix Mars Lander has whapped the Web world upside the head with its captivating images from the Red Planet. But without the successful generation of energy by its two solar arrays (with the help of lithium-ion storage batteries) to power its science experiments, the mission would be an abysmal failure. "





It is!!



It seems the pv panels have failed! Nothing coming back from Mars!

I wonder if they can claim on a warranty?





Back to the drawing board!



(no offence)



Rob

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 16:36

Hatty: The modules are connected to a DC Pump. The prices and specifications for different pool sizes can be found here: http://www.personngroup.com/x/files/2008AGD_Fiyatlar.pdf see page 5 Badu Top 12. For the sqm size: Each module is approx 1,4sqm. So assuming you have at least 2 to 3 it would be 2,8sqm or 4,2sqm (Depends on your pool m3 = 10m x 5m x average depht (in m)). Hope it helps.

For contact see above.

Sunny regards, henrik

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 16:50

I thought that the NASA mission is over because of the "MARS winter" (no light no electricity with pv!). To count a high technological Roboter into "failure of pv modules" is quite risky as it can hardly be prooved that it is only the modules and not maybe a sandcorn in the communication board.. (I ll book the next flight to check ) The 80% output warranty says that if you measure your module after 25.1 years and it produces under certain conditions only 79% of the given Wp, then you have the right to clam this. BTW: We had an pv module in Karşıyaka and some funny guy shoot a single 9mm bullet through it- BUT: it did still produce electricity at about 50%. Unless you have "acts of god" or other violences its very hard to get PV modules down. This is a fact.

Puh, any more??

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 16:58

ROBnJo: Nothing wrong with the PV:

Mission Highlights - The Phoenix Mars Lander surpassed its original three-month mission, lasting five months in the Martian northern plains, digging up scientific 'firsts' along the way. Courtesy NASA/JPL-Caltech.

November 10, 2008 -- NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander has ceased communications after operating for more than five months. As anticipated, seasonal decline in sunshine at the robot's arctic landing site is not providing enough sunlight for the solar arrays to collect the power necessary to charge batteries that operate the lander's instruments.

Mission engineers last received a signal from the lander on Nov. 2. Phoenix, in addition to shorter daylight, has encountered a dustier sky, more clouds and colder temperatures as the northern Mars summer approaches autumn. The mission exceeded its planned operational life of three months to conduct and return science data.

Read all @: http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/

GO FOR SOLAR NOW??

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 17:03

researches done by flying to the Mars with my solar powered plane.. Picture here: http://www.ecotopia.com/st/images/helios_cthomas_big.jpg

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 17:10

kibsolar



Come on!



Nasa have invested $m's and years of planning! They knew to within a mtr where the landing was.



I don't think they're saying "tut tut, it must be a few cloudy days, or someones nicked the kibtek fuse"!







You're the salesman,... I'm the prospective client!



How about you give me an insurance backed 10 yr full replacement warranty and I'll forego any 80% output 25 yr claims?



Sounds a reasonable compromise!



Either you sell your product to me,.... or "I'm Out"!!





Rob

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 17:25

Rob, what else should I say???? Do I need to write more, what comes next? No, I am not the salesman. I am sure about alternative energy. I do lots of education work, for free. My facebook group counts 250 (without advertising or selling something). I do seminars for kids, Peter works from time to time with institutes like GTZ (for free!). We have educational videos on our web site. Either you want to learn about it or not. If I and other facts can not convinience you, then I think you are Out. If you decide to use alternative energy (for whatever) then please contact Peter. Enough for me...



Icy (its realy cooooolllld) regards from Germany! Henrik

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 17:37

Henrik



You have summed up the problems with alternative energy.



It just isn't an alternative yet!



It's great for focus groups, schools & Governments to advocate, but most of it is still inefficient, underfunded and way too expensive.



Most private people who invest in it at present are Guinea pigs who will never see a return.



I have been researching similar sources and have been taken in by the hype, only to be let down by the reality!



Way to go yet! Please don't take my comments personally.



Rob,.... from a chilly London!

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 22:28

Rob (and Mark),

it was an expected and PLANNED dead of the mars mission. it was a terminated mission.

to implement that "something must be wrong" with that "solar panels" is simply nonsens. you may get some more info about the conditions on Mars....then you see clear...about reality

even if sometimes something is going wrong... where are the alternatives? a gas heater? nuclear power? rediculous. there is NO alternative to solar power.

same on earth.

you and mark have "reservations" but no really good reasons for it.

Solar is expensive? not at all.

the "common way of investing and making money" did cost until today trillions of dollars...and f... up our environment.



in the EU PV systems are insured and also comes with guarantees for their payback. didnt you know that? and if not, why not?

your researches say nothing about it?

in the EU people are waiting ages until their PV system will be connected. all stupid guinea pigs?

from a cyprus without water (reality), Peter

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 14:36

Peter



In the UK I cannot find any PV supplier/installer who gives an insured/guaranteed payback period warranty. Maybe it's different in Europe.



The costs of PV systems are still prohibitive with a payback period far in excess of the likely lifetime of the equipment.



Many Companies have got on the 'Bandwagon' and installed poorly designed systems with little regard for technical efficiency. I suspect many of these Companies will be 'Long Gone' before a client has to make any claim.



I am a wholehearted supporter of alternative energy, but the Industry is still in infancy and being promoted by some questionable Companies.



If Major Companies such as Utility Companies or Multinationals were to embrace the equipment and installations, I might have a little more confidence in spending probably a few £000 of my money.



Similarly with Electric vehicles,... I would be interested in a Ford or Toyota all electric car, but I wouldn't touch a GWiz with a bargepole!





Rob

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 19:15

ok, Rob,

lets agree and say UK is not part of europe

in eg gemany you get grants from the state, around 50% of the investment and a guaranteed price for each kw/h you feed the grid. that pays back in a certain time.

you must apply for such a system to get the grants, they proof it, incl the calculated payback (which is databased for more then 1000 areas all over germany)

in germany the specialized multis are already there, little space for the small installer, unfortunately.

crooks are everywhere but has nothing to do with "solar power".

you might be right to say that england seem to be quite expensive.

in spain it is also more expensive then in germany.

as i mentioned in msg 30, primary energy is needed to produce electricity.

that applies for an electric car as well.

but if you like, buy a Tesla.. http://www.teslamotors.com/

Peter

PS: do you want a pool pump system now or not?

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 19:49

Peter



I think the UK may never be a part of Europe



Which is sad as Europe seem to be taking alternative energy more seriously.



My interest in EV's is for PV charging, not from grid, making them ideal for places such as Cyprus.



I have looked at the Tesla,... but you wouldn't get a goat and a bale of hay in the back!



Currently my tenants in NC are paying all the bills, so to be selfish, a PV pool system would not give me any personal benefit at present.

Though I am open to forward looking savings.



Rob