ROC refugees - "A law absurd in every sense"

Aussie


Joined: 17/06/2007
Posts: 657

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 16:40

ONLY IN Cyprus where so much absurdity goes unquestioned could the state have decided to make refugee status a hereditary right that can be passed on, from father to child, like the family business. As this is a patriarchal society, only the father could pass on his refugee status to his children, and of the children only the sons could pass it on to their own children. Females, even if they are first generation refugees, are treated like second-rate citizens as they are unable to bequeath the status to their offspring.



The Movement of Refugee Mothers has been fighting against this social injustice since it was set up in 2005 and has submitted its demands for equal treatment to the interior minister. If by December 3, the minister does not give written assurances that women will be able to pass on their refugee status to their children, the movement will stage a demonstration outside the Presidential Palace. Perhaps they should also complain to the Agency for Sexual Equality, becaus

Aussie


Joined: 17/06/2007
Posts: 657

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 16:41

the existing law is blatantly discriminatory. On what moral grounds could a woman be considered less of a refugee than a man?



There are no grounds to justify it and President Christofias who had pledged to satisfy the demand of the refugee mothers, during his election campaign, now has a political and moral obligation to amend the law. He cannot make a decidedly absurd law any more absurd by making it cover more people. And once he does this, there would be twice as many refugees in 2009 than there were in 1974, which would be quite an achievement. As the spokeswoman of the movement pointed out on Tuesday, the more people there were “with refugee status the stronger the bargaining position of the Cyprus Republic would be for a just settlement.”



All demands made in Cyprus are guided by the national interest. Nobody mentions the fact that refugee status is so attractive because it makes people eligible for a variety of state grants, the most important of which is cash assistance fo

Aussie


Joined: 17/06/2007
Posts: 657

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 16:42

for building or buying a first home. While this assistance was perfectly correct in the case of people who had been forcefully driven out of the north in 1974, there is no justification for extending it to their children. There are young couples, with low incomes, who are much more deserving of state assistance, for a first home, than people with refugee status. State assistance should be given to those on a low income and not to well-off couples, just because they have refugee status.



If we had responsible politicians, who did not think of every decision in term of votes, this absurd law would never have been passed in the first place. Refugee status would have been given to people who had been living in the occupied area before 1974. Children of refugees, born after 1974, had not been displaced and, in the eyes of law, should not have been regarded refugees. This would have been the rational approach, which nobody would have been able to call ‘unfair’. But rationality is always th

Aussie


Joined: 17/06/2007
Posts: 657

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 16:43

the first casualty of populism.



Copyright © Cyprus Mail 2008



Thursday, November 13, 2008

aweverard


Joined: 13/07/2008
Posts: 54

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 17:35

Makes total sense.



Now 400,000 refugees (half the population!) so we will need to get EU money to pay for it all.



Think like a Cypriot politician, free money = employ friends = votes = more free money ad infinitum.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 18:20

If Turkey had not invaded and ethnically cleansed 180,000 Cypriots from their lands and seized their properties there would be no refugee problem. Some people would do well to get back to basics. Good luck to all the displaced people and their dependents.

gibson335


Joined: 01/11/2008
Posts: 325

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 19:13

Yet again Pike comes up with what can only be described as a load of crap. I sincerely hope he and his family suffer what the Turkish Cypriots suffered at the hands of the Greek Cypriots. Perhaps then he will know what ethnic cleansing really means I would also like to know what his views are on Larnaca Airport as it is built on land belonging to T.C.refugee. I have no doubt however that he will deny this well known fact same as he closes his mind to the truth about wha actually happened on this Island

ronaldo


Joined: 14/11/2007
Posts: 372

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 19:27

re - message 7 ethnic cleansing ! this is a made up name by politicians. what was committed in cyprus was GENOCIDE.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 19:52

gibson335: "Yet again Pike comes up with what can only be described as a load of crap. I sincerely hope he and his family suffer what the Turkish Cypriots suffered at the hands of the Greek Cypriots."



Let's see how long it takes one of our many moderators to do something about this...

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 19:59

ronaldo: "re - message 7 ethnic cleansing ! this is a made up name by politicians. what was committed in cyprus was GENOCIDE."



I don't think the killings and war crimes Turkey was convicted of carrying out in Cyprus in 1974 amounted to genocide, but I know where you're coming.



Keep the faith.

bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 20:00

Pike,

If Turkey had not invaded and ethnically cleansed 180,000 Cypriots from their lands and seized their properties there would be no refugee problem.



Actually Pike I think there would have been a refugee problem. What about those TC's whose properties were burnt or bulldozed and those made homeless from 1963 onwards?

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 20:02

I wasn't aware Turkey had been convicted of anything least of all killings and war crimes ?

ronaldo


Joined: 14/11/2007
Posts: 372

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 20:05

I sincerely hope he and his family suffer what the Turkish Cypriots suffered at the hands of the Greek Cypriots. This satement should be withdrawn as i personally would not wish this upon anyone.

wackyjim



Joined: 04/06/2007
Posts: 760

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 20:10

Pike



If you accept what gibson335 says that TC's suffered at the hands of GC's then he shouldn't have wished the same on you.



If you don't or feel that the GC's had every right to do what they did then I'm not sure you have much to complain about

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 20:15

bradus: "Actually Pike I think there would have been a refugee problem. What about those TC's whose properties were burnt or bulldozed and those made homeless from 1963 onwards."



Any refugee issue is a scandal, including the plight of Turkish Cypriots in 1963-64. What figures do you have of the TC homeless from this period? And what about the thousands more TCs uprooted from the south as a direct result of Turkey's invasion? My 180,000 GC figure is fairly conservative as they usually claim it was 200,000 or more.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 20:17

Turtle: "I wasn't aware Turkey had been convicted of anything least of all killings and war crimes ?"



Check out the ECHR guilty verdicts. You may have to go to the ECHR for them as links have been taken down, possibly as a result of the peace process.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 20:20

wackyjim,



I'm ignoring the post you refer to apart from pointing out - again - that it violates the rules. Go ahead and ask me anything you like, though. I hope you haven't cashed in on a refugee's misery and suffering, BTW.

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 20:20

Were there any Greek convictions at this time or just Turkish.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 20:24

Do you mean Greek or Greek Cypriot? I don't think the RoC was taken to the ECHR although atrocities were undoubtably carried out by that side.

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 20:25

So why no convictions ?

wackyjim



Joined: 04/06/2007
Posts: 760

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 20:29

Pike



"I'm ignoring the post you refer to apart from pointing out - again - that it violates the rules."......I accept that.



"I hope you haven't cashed in on a refugee's misery and suffering, BTW."... This is just more of the same from you.. I have already told you in a previous post that I am more than happy to pay compensation as and when and if. I also told you that I sleep very well at night.Thank you!!

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 20:34

IF TURKEY HAD NOT INVADED....there would be no t/cs,the greeks would of killed them all.





musin

long live the kktc

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 20:38

Turtle: "So why no convictions ?"



The ECHR couldn't have seen it as a big enougn problem, perhaps. Get on to them and ask them. If there's been a cover-up or conspiracy I'll go to town on it.

ronaldo


Joined: 14/11/2007
Posts: 372

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 20:39

Please dont let this posting get out of hand like all the others do. I for one am enjoying some of these posting I find them very interesting. Is it true that Larnaca airport belonged to a T/C ? As for war crimes I am unaware of anybody! in the whole of Cyprus being convicted of any atrocity either Greek mainlander genrals or Turkish mainlanders.

ronaldo.

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 20:42

So just peddling half the story again..............same old

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 20:42

wackyjim: " I also told you that I sleep very well at night.Thank you!!"



I accept you made the choice knowing the background. My frequent mentioning of the subject is intended to keep unsuspecting people aware, not just to rub people's noses in it. It's wrong, it's immoral and it shouldn't be going on. And it has caused a barrier to settlement.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 20:44

Ronaldo,



Turkey as a country was found guilty of war crimes in Cyprus by the ECHR. Individuals were not prosecuted because Turkey would never hand them over in the first place.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 20:46

turtle "So just peddling half the story again..............same old"



Sorry, but which half is missing? Some people on this BB know hardly anything in the first place.

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 20:49

So pikey you are the educated one enlighten us thick'os to the whole truth and nothing but the truth...........................go on we can take it

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 21:03

Do your own reading and get to know every part of Cyprus, Turtle, not just the bit you went for. That's what I did. Nobody can speak with any authority unless they've researched the whole subject pretty well.

bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 21:08

There should certainly have been convictions for war crimes on both sides. There is certainly plenty of evidence. It is a sad state of affairs but sometimes convictions or non-convictions are more about who the big players want to remain on good terms with. Some decisions are evidently based on the political, financial, strategic position and military ramifications rather than for humane reasons.

Have you ever wondered why there was little to no intervention when attrocities were happening in the 1960's to the TC's? Britain as a guarantor appears to have done very little. America did even less. UN did little more than observe and document.

Wonder what might have happened if there had been more constructive input from the above?

Aussie


Joined: 17/06/2007
Posts: 657

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 21:17

The point here is not the legitimate recognition of the GC's who were forced to leave the North in 1974 but the principle that refugee status can be inherited by their descendents who never even lived in Northern Cyprus. This is simply a money grabbing and political exercise to try to exaggerate the real refugee numbers whose numbers should decline with deaths etc not increase.



If this principle was used accross the world much of the world population would be classified as refugees regardless of time. I would probably claim refugee status form at least one country (possibly two) and all my descendents etc in the original country of origin.



Aussie

ronaldo


Joined: 14/11/2007
Posts: 372

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 21:20

Bradus

In total agreement with you ! Britain greece and turkey were the guarantors of Cyprus . Harold Wilson and James Callaghan chose to Ignore the plight of all cypriots . and they relied totally on the americans to give them guidance ! Enough said.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 21:37

"The Greek Cypriots have always exagerated the number of their displaced persons, and they frequently claim in excess of 200,000, but a census of evacuated GC dwellings in 1974 showed that there cannot possibly have been more than 105,000. This is approximately equal to the number of TC who have been displaced - 25,000 in 1963 and 65,000 in 1974". - Michael Stephen



Dr Seymen Atasoy, Associate Professor the Eastern Mediterranean University says that Michael Stephen’s work is rigorously documented, demonstrating a comprehensive survey of the historical, legal, political, economic and cultural aspects of the Cyprus problem.

The study convincingly demonstrates that the world community generally perceives the Cyprus issue in a strongly biased fashion, which clearly favours the Greek side while doing serious injustice to the Turkish one.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 22:07

ILC,



"The study convincingly demonstrates that the world community generally perceives the Cyprus issue in a strongly biased fashion, which clearly favours the Greek side while doing serious injustice to the Turkish one. "



They are very good at this....



It is an unfortunate fact of history that at the time the real violence kicked-off, Western governments did not side with Islamic countries at odds with "Christians"... This was a disgrace but given the atmosphere of the times no surprise... Racial discrimination was endemic in all walks and facets of life and this was just one more example in practice. You only have to look at what passed for acceptable humour in those days to realise how much things have changed in peoples thinking.



Prior to the intervention, Turkey pleaded with the other guarantor nations to intervene jointly to no avail. If they had done I'm pretty sure the island would not still be in the state it is now....



Now the beating of breasts is difficult.

bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 22:10

PRIO (iNTERNATIONAL PEACE & RESEARCH Institution Oslo) who work closely with the internal displacementh agency has some interesting information and statistics on this.



http://www.internal-displacement.org/8025708F004CE90B/(httpDocuments)/EF6541C01C87AC8EC125729C003130C9/$file/PRIO+Cyprus+Property+Report.pdf

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 22:15

Groucho: "Turkey pleaded with the other guarantor nations to intervene jointly to no avail."



Riiiight... So Ecevit "pleaded" with the junta colonels in Athens? Shurely shome mishtake!

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 22:16

A new legal battle has been launched at the European Court of Human Rights, this time by a group of Turkish Cypriots.

Inhabitants from the village of Yagmuralan have filed a case at the ECHR against the Greek Cypriot Administration for the destruction of their village located in South Cyprus.

A group of 10 people from the village of Yagmuralan, launched the case following the exhaustion of domestic legal means in South Cyprus.

Turkish Cypriot lawyers Zaim Necatigil and Sulen Karabacak, who are experienced in the field of international law and human rights are representing the case on behalf of the group.

The villagers, who have organized them under the Yagmuralan Society, had launched a legal struggle in 2006.

They had sent a letter to the Greek Cypriot government asking for the return of the village to its rightful owners and for all the aggrieved villagers to be compensated for their losses.

A letter of reply from the Greek Cypriot Interior Ministry had turned down the society’

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 22:39

How bad do GC's really have it?



The higly credible survey conducted by the Centre for European Policy studies in Brussels found that 51% of GC's were satisfied with their lives. I would be very very surprised if these figures were lower than in Britian where 1 in 4 people suffer from mental health issues ranging from anxiety to depression.



Calculations by Dr Phillip Harter of Stanford University school of Medicine showed that if you shrank the worlds population to 100 people it would look like this:

80 of worlds population would live in substandard housing

70 would be unable to read

50 would suffer malnutrition

1 would have a college education

1 would own a computer

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 22:41

Scary stats ilc

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 23:14

Pike



Groucho: "Turkey pleaded with the other guarantor nations to intervene jointly to no avail."



Riiiight... So Ecevit "pleaded" with the junta colonels in Athens? Shurely shome mishtake!



You are right it would have been a mistake... I notice that instead of answering the basis of the post you choose to nit-pick over the semantics of one sentence which you know full well was meant to indicate "other" than the Greeks who were not worth approaching given their actions up to that point....



The use of the Private Eye quote does not surprise me either... you love to plagiarise... another hack-trick (sic)

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
14/11/2008 00:55

Pike you said "Do your own reading and get to know every part of Cyprus, Turtle, not just the bit you went for. That's what I did. Nobody can speak with any authority unless they've researched the whole subject pretty well"



So I take it you have not researched the whole of the subject as you will not answer my question.

As I said just peddling the bits you want to peddle.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
14/11/2008 12:39

turtle,



You asked for the "whole truth". Are you serious? Shall we start with the Bible? You will have to be a little more specific as to how you want me to enlighten you.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
14/11/2008 12:44

Groucho,



You were making general observations which surely don't need comment.



But to make a blunder like you did over Turkey supposedly "pleading" for help from Greece before invading in 1974 - when it was the Greeks who launched the coup in the first place - does make me wonder how much you really know about Cyprus.



Just my view, that's all.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
15/11/2008 12:18

msge 39



Interesting article Bradus. It correlates highly with the CEPS survey.



I think I have vastly underestimated the number of GC's who want to go back North. It seems that compensation may just not cut it for them (although we all have our price).

At the same time TC's are really not going to be comfortable at all with vast droves of GC's moving back in to their zone. This is not going to work for them.



The property issue is indeed thorny