Orams Verdict

bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
16/11/2008 22:37

The ECHR decided to withold the Orams verdict stating that the outcome would put a feeling of negativity on the current peace talks.



What do you think the verdict could/should be?

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
16/11/2008 22:58

How can they? Can you give us a link for this news please?

ismet

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
16/11/2008 23:12

I am sure the last report in Cyprus Today was the verdict would be given in February, nothing to do with the EU Thought Police just the courts delaying again.



Does anybody believe a genuine verdict will be given? Will it just be kept hanging until everybody forgets what the thing was about.



I agree with the sentiment of bradus posting and it may, on the surface be helpful to delay while talks are progressing. However, there is an election due here next year and the longer both these things drag on the less likely is an early resolution. I am sure Mr Talat would like to leave office with a result but that appears unlikely!!!

w26kay



Joined: 14/10/2007
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
16/11/2008 23:13

If this is true it is disgraceful, and I for one will want to know why? A case has been presented to them, heard, and judgement was to be handed down in December. If this is true, 1. What was the point in hearing the case in the first place, after all it was not that long ago and they would have been well aware of the "talks" at that time. 2. What a waste of time and money.



Please provide a link if you can.

Thanks.

w26kay



Joined: 14/10/2007
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
16/11/2008 23:15

I had assumed (perhaps incorrectly????!!!) that they were beyond politics. Oh well perhaps not then.

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
16/11/2008 23:19

Why give a decision in February when its widely tipped the talks will go on til June ?

If its going to be Feb then it may aswell have been last December



Im confused !

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
16/11/2008 23:48

I do not expect an anverse decision for TRNC. Perhaps the Greek Cypriots are playing for time.

ismet

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
16/11/2008 23:48

adverse!!!

Aussie


Joined: 17/06/2007
Posts: 657

Message Posted:
16/11/2008 23:59

I noticed the article on this in the Cyprus Today page 6 which which gave the impression the Cyprus Turkish National Existance Council had major concerns about a possible adverse ruling against the Orams etc. This is the first quote of a TC source I have seen that hasn't appeared positive on the likely outcome of this. Unforunately there is no indication of what sources they relied upon to form this view.



Aussie

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
17/11/2008 00:02

Kay,



Sorry, the article was in CT and as you know they do not have an on line version. Plus as it was a couple of weeks ago the paper is gone. Maybe someone has the copy. If I find it I will try to post the outline of article.



David

bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
17/11/2008 01:20

Article in the Cyprus Today was not the source I was referring to although their headline "Judgement Could Derail Peace Talks" was of a similar theme. I'll do a literature search tomorrow and see if I can remember which newspaper I read it in.

Am I right in saying that the verdict should have originally been given in September and now it has been moved to Feb 2009?

w26kay



Joined: 14/10/2007
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
17/11/2008 01:34

Thank you David.



Bradus, the case was heard in September with judgment reserved to December. As eminent as they are (LOL)!!!! it takes them 3 months to write their judgment apparently.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
17/11/2008 07:23

I am not well versed with their system but I think they had asked the "Advocate General", whoever that is to look into it and to make recommendations. I think this was going to be ready by December and their judgement by February.

ismet

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
17/11/2008 09:38

Does anyone feel positive that a final and acceptable ruling will come this time on this case or like myself is this just going to be a bit like Bleak House, going on into infinity?

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
17/11/2008 19:16

from what i have been reading from different places i thought the judgement had been decided and they were not giving the outcome until later due to the talks.



judgement day has been postponed so to speak.

lenny


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 2

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 15:17

kay,message 4,very true

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 15:18

The Orams case is not at the ECHR but at the ECJ.



The ECHR is a body of the Council of Europe



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe



The Council of Europe is a seperate body to the EU , pre dates it and Turkey is a member of it.



The Orams case is behing heard by the ECJ which is the highest court of the EU



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Court_of_Justice



These two courts (ECJ / ECHR) and the bodies that set them up (EU / COE) are entirely different.



Many cases have been brought to the ECHR by Greek Cypriots against Turkey for violation of their rights. The Orams case is entirely different from these cases at the ECHR.



The Orams case is about if under EU law, a judgment made in the RoC re property in the North can be enforced by courts in other EU member states against assets in those states or not.



EU law has provision for rulings in one member state to be enforced by the courts of another and against assets in that other state. However it ....

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 15:19

is far from clear if these existing EU laws apply in the case of a ruling about imovable property by RoC courts when said courts have no effective control over the area in which the property exists.



This is the issue that the ECJ will rule on. It is not , can not and will not make any assement or judgment about the RoC ruling or about the rights and wrongs of property purchase of dispute land in the north. It will purely decide if that RoC ruling, the parts of it that could be enforced, can be enforced by UK courts against Uk assets or not.



In very simplistic terms the Orams argument is that the property is in an area of the EU where EU law is currently suspended and thus the EU law that says the RoC can be enforced by courts in other EU countries is also not applicable. The GC argument is that the intent of the suspension of EU law in the North of Cyprus was to protect the RoC from non compliance with EU directives in an area over whihc it has no effective control.



.....

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 15:19

.....



and not to prevent the use of EU law to allow for RoC judgments to be enforced by courts in other EU member states.



My personal view is that the ECJ can not say to an EU citizen that lives in the north "you do not have any of the protections or benefits of EU law in the North of Cyprus as such law is suspended there but the same EU law can be used against you regarding issues in the North of Cyprus. Either EU law applies in whole and citizens have all the benefits and libilities of that or it does not apply at all. To say you can only have the liabilites of EU law with regards to the North of Cyprus but none of the benefits to me seems an inhernetly unjust position to take and I do not think the ECJ will make such a ruling. I think if and when a ruling is given it will uphold the view of the British Judge that the RoC ruling can not under EU law be enforced by courts in other member states because EU law is suspended in the North and the ruling relates to propery there.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 18:10

erolz: "Either EU law applies in whole and citizens have all the benefits and libilities of that or it does not apply at all."



I disagree on this point. The only reason EU law cannot be applied in the north of Cyprus (for now) is the presence of 40,000 Turkish troops. But a suspension there should not protect wrong-doers from the law elsewhere in Europe. More than once I've had to sue someone for a debt and they have tried to escape justice by moving address to where they thought they were safe. But when I tracked them down and served the decree I broke them in two financially - and made sure they wished they had been more honest in the first place. As Mrs Orams said, "It was all a long time ago." But be sure one's sins will find them out and justice will prevail.

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 18:18

I see the sun has gone down in Kyrenia....as you are out of your little wooden box again spreading the gospel of doom.

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 20:04

suzz, you keep your mates backside really clean....

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 23:36

Suz,



Someone wants me to be a vampire - but I think I'll leave it to officialdom to suck the blood out of foolish investors when they have to face the music.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 23:40

Love at First Bite - excellent film or what?

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 23:59

Msg 18 excellent analysis. Msg 20 Mr Pike.



The presence of troops or not will not have any effect opon any judgment.

Troop presence, of course, could influence upholding any judgment.

Mr Pike you clearly have your views upon land issues. My own view is that history is full of dislocated, disenfranchised and disposessed peoples TRNC land issues will be overcome without the need of legal writs and expensive litigation .

It is clearly the case that you have the resources to break people that have done you wrong. I do hope that you first endeavoured to negotiate a settlement along the lines of the current talks between North and South.



I offer my full support to the negotiated settlement.

karakum5c



Joined: 18/03/2008
Posts: 1021

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 00:11

It is impossible to turn back time, the Cyprus of 1974 can never be recreated we must deal with the situation as it is now if we intend to move forward.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 03:04

waz: "It is clearly the case that you have the resources to break people that have done you wrong."



To be frank I let them do that themselves. That way, sometimes others learn a valuable lesson.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 16:16

re PtePike msg 20



Another forum another alias.



PtePike: "But a suspension there should not protect wrong-doers from the law elsewhere in Europe."





This just shows that you do not understand, or more likely care, what the ECJ ruling is about and why it is being made. There is simply no issue of 'wrong doing' in terms of the case and issue that the ECJ is looking at. It is absolutely NOT looking at, or ruling on, the rights and wrongs of property purchase in the North of Cyprus or the RoC court's ruling. These issues have NO bearing at all on the case the ECJ is determining. What it IS looking at is does EU law as it currently exits allow for a judgment, like the one made in the RoC against the Ormas, to be enforced by other member state's courts or not under EU law. This is not a simple and clear cut legal question which is why it was first looked at by a UK high court Judge and then passed by him to the ECJ.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 19:03

Erolz,



It's you who has the wrong end of the stick. I'm fully aware about the legal minutae. My post was commentry that wrong-doers - people who occupy Greek Cypriot property - should face court action.



"Another forum another alias."



A few years out of date again. I only post here as Pike and on the VO BB as EricSeans. So that is two handles and everyone knows who I am. Just as I know who you are.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr_Logic

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 21:33

the orams are also arguing that they were not served the paperwork from the courts correctly.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 22:21

Anyone accused of doing wrong should face court action. The Orams were accused of doing wrong by a GC and found Guilty by a RoC court.



This thread however is about the EJC ruling. That is not about anything other than EU Law. You may dismiss EU law as 'legal minutae' when it suits your purpose to do so but just as accused wrong doers should face courts so to should indivduals respect the Law.



Clearly you have no interest in the topic of the thread, the actual ECJ case. The thread to you is nothing more than an excuse for you to once more try and ram your views down peoples throats.



If you actualy have anything of any value to add to the thread that is on topic - ie relevant to the 'legal minutae' of what the ECJ is ruling about then I may comment. If however you just want to rant I will take my more normal position with regards to yourself and simply continue to ingore you.