Why Greece doesn't deserve help

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
04/11/2011 23:28

Greece’s entry to the European Union and adoption of the euro was clearly a catastrophic mistake.





Subsequent to Greece’s entry, the first socialist government under Andreas Papandreou (the current PM’s father) initiated a large borrowing programme to modernise and restructure the Greek economy with support and encouragement from Brussels.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
04/11/2011 23:29

As it happened, it was like giving a low-earning person several million euros to “improve his standard of life” without ensuring the investments would be channelled into productive assets that would generate additional income to repay the debt.



The late Papandreou embarked on enlarging the state-sector and increasing their salaries and pensions, based not on productivity but on borrowed money.



He also allowed foreign nationals with Greek ancestry to easily apply for Greek citizenship thus reducing the future employment prospects of native Greeks. As a result, he ensured numerous votes and the next term in office for his PASOK party.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
04/11/2011 23:30

Large infrastructure programmes funded by the state were commissioned as well as lavish facilities and ceremonial displays for the 2004 Olympics. The outcome was that all this huge spending was mismanaged.



I feel it is unfair that Greece is now labelled “lazy and corrupt” in its inability to meet debt service obligations.



Corrupt politicians pocketed commissions for awarding contracts, the contractors did not do their work properly because they were paying the politicians and large amounts of money were channelled to off-shore accounts of individuals. The state, however, was saddled with huge debt without generating new revenues to ensure repayment.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
04/11/2011 23:31

I feel it is unfair that Greece is now labelled “lazy and corrupt” in its inability to meet debt service obligations.



Greece’s lamentable situation is the result of an ill-conceived European Union with a common currency but un-common fiscal and political leadership. It was wrong to assume that poorer member states such as Greece would rise to the standards of productivity of Germany.



Any banker who lends too much to an individual with limited earning capacity stands to lose his capital. In similar fashion, it is right to expect a significant loss of capital from all the irrational and excessive lending to Greece based on false expectations.



The European Union has to dramatically change its structure to survive.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
04/11/2011 23:32

http://www.fundweb.co.uk/blogs/guest-blog/greece-a-personal-view/1040904.article

ang1706


Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 570

Message Posted:
04/11/2011 23:34

You hit the nail on the head mate, they lied about state of their economy to get in.



Wonder if the ROC did same!!



Should boot them all out and redraw conditions, Im sure Turkey is having a laugh at the mo though!

mcstyler


Joined: 15/08/2011
Posts: 205

Message Posted:
04/11/2011 23:38

Yeah turkey is great everyone i know wishes they lived there and not an eu state.

HairyPeggy01


Joined: 01/09/2010
Posts: 24

Message Posted:
05/11/2011 05:24

Brussls is as much to blame as the Greeks for the present malaise. Yes, the Greeks cooked their books in order to gain entry into the Eurozone. But Brussels knew they were cooking the books, as did anybody with a ha'puth of common sense.

Biker



Joined: 11/01/2008
Posts: 396

Message Posted:
05/11/2011 12:12

No1Doyen



I agree with you whole heartedly. A very informative article.

Well done.

Cobbler


Joined: 15/11/2009
Posts: 61

Message Posted:
05/11/2011 13:08

And Germany and France were quite happy to sell wapons to Greece that they knew it could not afford because it was scared of Turkey. Greece has more tanks and fighter planes than the UK. What good is NATO if you are worried about your so called "ally"

minertor



Joined: 14/02/2009
Posts: 1238

Message Posted:
05/11/2011 13:10

Hindsight, don't you just luv it!!



T

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
05/11/2011 13:26

I saw from the news last night that Greece has developed a solar panel system called Hellios. It is eventually going to be 200 sq km in size. It seems that Germany virtually now owns this (negotiated in return for bailout money) and will use the energy to power its industrial might. This fits with Germany's renewals strategy, which includes the powering down of its nucleur power stations.



Can the Cypriots export the suns energy to Europe and beyond? I guess a lack space is the issue?

Cobbler


Joined: 15/11/2009
Posts: 61

Message Posted:
05/11/2011 13:39

Plenty of space on mountain sides

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
05/11/2011 13:47

msge 13



'Plenty of space on mountain sides"



Sounds like an opportunity for the Cypriots Cobbler

marks


Joined: 01/11/2011
Posts: 83

Message Posted:
05/11/2011 14:11

Yes they do deserve help, not the politicians and the shipping magnates etc but the ordinary man/woman on the street, homeless, it isn't their fault.

KarmaSooty1


Joined: 29/09/2011
Posts: 91

Message Posted:
05/11/2011 14:52

Transmitting electricity at high voltage reduces the fraction of energy lost to resistance, which averages around 7%.[8] For a given amount of power, a higher voltage reduces the current and thus the resistive losses in the conductor. For example, raising the voltage by a factor of 10 reduces the current by a corresponding factor of 10 and therefore the I2R losses by a factor of 100, provided the same sized conductors are used in both cases. Even if the conductor size (cross-sectional area) is reduced 10-fold to match the lower current the I2R losses are still reduced 10-fold. Long distance transmission is typically done with overhead lines at voltages of 115 to 1,200 kV. At extremely high voltages, more than 2 MV between conductor and ground, corona discharge losses are so large that they can offset the lower resistance loss in the line conductors. Measures to reduce corona losses include conductors having large diameter; often hollow to save weight,[9] or bundles of two or more condu

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
05/11/2011 15:25

KarmaSooty1

Well done on your incomplete copy and paste from Wiki.

Or do you really know what you are talking about. And what has it got to do with the subject under discussion.

AngelaT


Joined: 25/04/2011
Posts: 114

Message Posted:
05/11/2011 17:11

A lot of people are saying that the Greek people have been having it 'too good for too long' but I disagree. People are mainly thinking of rich Athenian folk and civil servants when they say this, I am sure. As Marks said: what about the ordinary folk? There are also poor people living in Greece too. People who live on next to nothing.



I feel sorry for the Greeks, I really do. After all (hypothetically speaking), as ordinary folk, how many of us would like to retire at 50 years of age on a pension which was not much lower than our salary? I'm sure none of us would refuse it if it were offered. That is what the Greek Government has been offering its people.



It is the Greek Government's fault for offering this in the first place and now the people are used to this standard of living. People WILL riot if their salaries are being halved all of a sudden. A lot of them stand to lose their homes. Don't forget, these are the luckier, more well-off Greeks. Ctd....

AngelaT


Joined: 25/04/2011
Posts: 114

Message Posted:
05/11/2011 17:12

Ctd...



What about the poorer folk? How will they manage?



Having said that will another bailout help? How many bailouts can be given? What country will be next in line?



Angela

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
05/11/2011 17:32

You can't continue to bail out a country that refuses to at least try and put its house in order.



The problem is this country is so far in the red its going to take a miricle to fix it and they refuse to take the unpopular measures to put things right.



Lets face it Germany and France will not let their cosy little club fail so the Greeks know the endless stream of cash from the EU will continue.

AngelaT


Joined: 25/04/2011
Posts: 114

Message Posted:
05/11/2011 17:44

It's a sad situation. It really is. I do wonder what the effects would be (and for how long) if there wasn't a bailout and Greece's economy collapsed. It's a scarey thought.



The Greek Government have really got their work cut out! How can they ever got out of this mess? I'm not surprised the Greeks are angry.

marks


Joined: 01/11/2011
Posts: 83

Message Posted:
05/11/2011 18:48

Greece should leave the eurozone, along with all the med countries and revert back to their true currencies, it will be painful but they will then be the masters of their own destiny. Germany just want to rule west economically, they lost the war and have never ever really got over that.

marks


Joined: 01/11/2011
Posts: 83

Message Posted:
05/11/2011 18:52

Think about this, Greece, Italy, Portugal, Ireland etc etc survived for thousands of years before Germany decided to 'control' all of Europe, it is Germany's fault, they created this monster and all the aforementioned countries are now stuck in it, they were drawn in with promises of cheap money but nothing comes cheap.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
05/11/2011 19:07

msge 22



Could be some truth in what you say. Germany has benefited from the EURO to the detriment of the southern states.



If they are going to continue with the Euro then it should probably just contain the northern ones. Temperate Western European and Nordic countries seem to view the world somewhat differently from Mediterranean ones. The contrasting weather conditions has got to have something to do with it

marks


Joined: 01/11/2011
Posts: 83

Message Posted:
05/11/2011 19:15

ilovecyprus, you are spot on, also a little of the light hearted side, the Nordics etc live in a cold climate lol. Did you know that 70% of 'roadworks' in the med are built by the Germans and German countries and most roads lead directly to their own factories.

rocking


Joined: 05/11/2008
Posts: 421

Message Posted:
05/11/2011 19:27

Absolutely true No1 also do not think the South of Cyprus met the criteria if closely looked at.

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
05/11/2011 19:52

1st of all the ROC did the same as Greece and 'cooked' their books but the EU preferred to ignore what they did not want to see.

The biggest threat as far as I see it comes from from China and to a lesser extent Russia. China is desperate to make sure the EU remains a viable proposition. After all the EU is one of their biggest trading partners. And to a lesser extent so is Russia. Lets see over the next 6 to 12 months how much China and Russia are willing to inject into the EU just so as they can keep there trading options ongoing.

hadenough


Joined: 14/08/2011
Posts: 19

Message Posted:
05/11/2011 19:57

I thought you was talking about TRNC for a moment silly me.



Yes its not the fault of the greek people and yes we should help them like we should help.

portugal,italy,ireland,africa,iceland, where does it end after all all the money is owed to banks why should the ordinary man bail them out. I remember a proposition put forward to help resolve Uk problems and it was as simple as this all millionaires give 10% of their money to the state it would not change their life styles one iota.



made me think

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
05/11/2011 20:08

msge 25



"Did you know that 70% of 'roadworks' in the med are built by the Germans and German countries and most roads lead directly to their own factories."



Marks, I did not know this. What an amazing fact. Do you have a reference for this so I can explore it more?

marks


Joined: 01/11/2011
Posts: 83

Message Posted:
05/11/2011 20:39

I am trying to find it, BAM & Wayss and Freytag are two of the companies that I remember reading about, I will find the link tomorrow as I am going out now.

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
05/11/2011 21:04

hadenough,...

It is wrong to fllece the well off everytime there is a financial crisis.

If the high spenders in our society showed a little restaint and learnt a lesson or two from the wealthy business community they would probably not be in this mess in the first place.



Did you know that most wealthy people are only wealthy on paper with assets and not cash so what you are proposing is strip their assets ,..... a bit unfair in my opinion

bertieboss


Joined: 22/07/2011
Posts: 149

Message Posted:
06/11/2011 04:12

Message 31 - who is it who causes the financial crises ??It certainly is not the ordinary man in the street but they end up footing the bill !!

How is life on Mars?

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
06/11/2011 10:56

bertie ,. the financial crisis as you call it is created by many countries living the life of riley on borrowed money, yes the bankers had a part to play in all this.

When the cash cow of other countries dries up you get what you have today......a bloody mess

don't blame the rich guys for that,. if people cant live within their means thats their fault.



Life on Mars is just great thank you ....but I do wonder how life in cuckoo land is right now.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
06/11/2011 11:11

" People who live on next to nothing. "

How do you imagine things are going to get tougher for them?

They aren't, it's those not paying their properly due taxes that are worried their standard of living is going to take a dip when the shit hits the fan.

It's not the homeless who are protesting the cuts... is it?

deputydawg


Joined: 30/03/2010
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
06/11/2011 13:02

I thought that all the roads in Germany led "from" and not "to" their factories reaching all parts of Europe to ensure free movement of their tanks and artillery !

AngelaT


Joined: 25/04/2011
Posts: 114

Message Posted:
06/11/2011 13:42

Message 34,



I do believe that although the poorer people aren't protesting now they will soon suffer the impact of all these cuts. Homeless people's situations won't change much, I agree with you. People who have their own land and live a peasant existence might not suffer too much from the cuts.....but at least they have their own land.



What about those who are poor and don't have their own land? I don't know much about financial matters, it's true, but won't landowners be charging more rent when they feel the brunt of more taxes and less income. Shopkeepers will also be putting prices up, I suspect. Most people will be worse off financially and therefore less willing to give to others. Those people who just about scrape a living will be even worst off than ever.



I could be wrong, and I hope I am, but I feel that this is what will be happening.

blade


Joined: 19/06/2010
Posts: 1286

Message Posted:
06/11/2011 14:53

How the hell can we blame Greece for this?

This is not a Greek problem it was caused by the BANKS.

We have all suffered and continue to suffer for what they have done. Their bad management not ours.

All goverments borrow and all goverments have national debt, Greece and some others have just come out of this worst off than us/ Britian. But they aren't to blame.

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
06/11/2011 16:37

marks message 22

. Germany just want to rule west economically, they lost the war and have never ever really got over that.



Actually the average German ,as does the average Frenchman Dutchman etc is more concerned about the economy and his job,you appear to be the one that hasnt got over the war.



Yep they should destroy their industrial base and rely on the City of London and the spivs to be our main export. Then they would be down to our level ,and what good would that do ?. Or is it a case of some English for some reason so dislike Europeans that they consider us and other peoples suffering through a EU crisis is a price worth paying for the demise of the EU. Instead of wishing that ,why not try and get your masters to have a referendum and leave, Trust me, millions of Europeans want nothing better than a NO vote from you.



Castigate Greece for being too inefficient at the same time castigate Germany for being too efficient.

Make up your minds.!

marks


Joined: 01/11/2011
Posts: 83

Message Posted:
06/11/2011 17:00

Girne, so I am too assume that you do not watch BBC, in particular this morning, Shirin Williams (I think thats her name) presents a Sunday morning half hour programme on the EU, she usually has at least 3 prominent guests and part of the discussion was that many do not want Angela Merkel as the President of the whole of Europe dictating german policy on the rest of Europe. I think I will rest my case on that note.