4 Years for murder - out in 2

Visitor


Joined: 19/08/2010
Posts: 492

Message Posted:
28/11/2011 10:32

http://www.lbc.co.uk/boy-caught-on-camera-after-carnival-stabbing-47823



Outrageous. Police and legal system are useless - he will be out in two.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
28/11/2011 10:39

Msge 1



Visitor



Its not the fault of the Police.

TopTen


Joined: 15/04/2009
Posts: 1246

Message Posted:
28/11/2011 10:50

The Human rights people have a lot to answer for because decent people who are the victims of this scum are not defended by this law, And before you all start having a go, yes I do agree that there as to be some kind of law to protect peoples rights,but these scumbags forfeit the right for the protection that the human right law offers because there is a clue in the title HUMAN these bastards are not and can never be classed as a human being

Visitor


Joined: 19/08/2010
Posts: 492

Message Posted:
28/11/2011 10:59

Mssge 2: The police just stood by while the attacker escaped. It was a bystander who tackled him. look at the pictures read the report. You would get a tougher sentence for benefit fraud?

LaptaGeezer


Joined: 01/06/2010
Posts: 407

Message Posted:
28/11/2011 11:06

Solution is simple.... introduce a sliding scale of reduced Human Rights dependant upon the crime committed. That way the punishment, in terms of reduced HR, is felt by the criminal.

The system in the UK at the moment is pathetic... although there has been some small improvements recently; the guy that shot someone was given some support, and that is only right. If you go into someone's elses property then you should be fair game for whatever happens to you. If you don't want to take the risk.... don't go out on the nick!!

Trouble is that as long as we are controlled by Europe none of this will happen. One day when the English have had enough and get the 'cohonas' to go it alone again this can all be addressed, but until then we are stuck with it.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
28/11/2011 11:07

msge 4



Visitor



They don't look like Police, they look like Police community support officers. They do not have any powers to apprehend. They have to call for back up from Police officers.

Visitor


Joined: 19/08/2010
Posts: 492

Message Posted:
28/11/2011 11:13

The report says 'Bystander Valentine Simatchenko who witnessed the attack was hailed as a hero after attempting to trip up the perpetrator as police stood motionless.'



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2031549/Notting-Hill-Carnival-2011-stabbing-Police-hunt-knife-wielding-thug-fled.html



from the daily mirror



'What we do know is that those police were Welsh, drafted in as part of 16,000 officers on duty in London on Monday, 6,500 at the Notting Hill Carnival alone. Because they feared trouble. Yet those police could not prevent a 20-year-old being stabbed under their noses. Where does it leave the argument that simply putting more coppers on the streets automatically restores law and order?'

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
28/11/2011 11:20

Visitor



I can read what the report says, but I am looking at what is written on the back of the officers high visibility top. I cant make it out. If they were Police officers then you would expect them to assist, if they are community officers then they cant.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
28/11/2011 11:22

On closer inspection they do look like Police officers

Visitor


Joined: 19/08/2010
Posts: 492

Message Posted:
28/11/2011 11:24

Not one paper mentions them being community officers. If they were then perhaps its poor judgement to use them in such situations especially if they have no authority. But if it makes you happy them being community officers- fine you know best. Its not worth hundreds of postings.



However you look at it its dreadful and 4 years - shocking

LaptaGeezer


Joined: 01/06/2010
Posts: 407

Message Posted:
28/11/2011 11:26

Whilst the Police Officers don't have any real powers, and by that I mean they have to be so careful with people etc. and now that the respect fo them has been almost totally depleted, then pure numbers won't deter crime. The system needs to work as a whole unit and not as the currently number of segments that it is. Scrotes know that they can play the system and they spit/swear etc. and officers and a Judge recently decreed that people should not get arrested for swearing at officers because they hear it all the time and so it is not upsetting to them!!! You can imagine how that Judge would react if someone went into his courtroom and swore at him.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
28/11/2011 11:31

msge 10



I don't know best and I value what you say. I am just passing comment.



The Police are more likely to use Community officers at these type of events because these officers have built trust in the community, they will know some of the residents and as they are unarmed so they often don't pose such a threat as a tooled up Police officer.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
28/11/2011 11:33

correction msge 12



as they are unarmed, they do not pose such a threat....

yrret


Joined: 17/08/2010
Posts: 761

Message Posted:
28/11/2011 12:29

Just to clarify above, 'anyone' can make an arrest. The difference is a Police officer can anticipate an offence and do it, where a member o the public must wait until the offence has occurred. An absurd rule in that someone could attempt to prevent a murder, and be charged with assault.



The UK system is beyond repair I am afraid. I used to sit at the front of the room, and I can assure you that it's the judges higher up the tree, most of whom couldn't point to planet earth on a map of the solar system that are the problem, along with of course the HR brigade.



I would hang all offender, irrespective of age, on a third indictable conviction. Clemency would be applied if 3 of the HR/do good brigade swapped places, then we could see if they 'really' believe in what they preach.

Where burglars are let off by the HR lot, the HR lots addresses should be publicised, can't complain being robbed if you condoned the criminals previously.



A weak nation that deserves all it has propagate

slatnumber7


Joined: 25/08/2010
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
28/11/2011 12:52

Visitor Msg 1 The link that you posted is ambiguous. The victim of the 26th August at the carnival did not die, Junior Henry was convicted of serious assault, probably causing GBH with intent S.18 Offences Against the Person Act 1861.



In which case the maximum sentence is life imprisonment, making the 4 year sentence a mockery but the gaols are full and sentencing guidelines restrict judges from imposing long custodial sentences.



Clearly this violent young man will present a threat to society on his release and will regard his next two years ahead as all part of his 'apprenticeship in crime'.



It does perhaps give comfort to some to see more Bobbies on the Beat but there is something dreadfully wrong with society in my view. It is the duty of the police to keep the peace and maintain law and order. It is not their job to repair society, so how can that be achieved?

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
28/11/2011 13:33

"It is not their job to repair society, so how can that be achieved?"



You pose the right question.

I got involved in this thread because I often think the Police get too much blame. Ultimately, they caught Junior Henry, which is what the public want. Response officers are just as frustrated as the public when a criminal gets a light sentence.

Police tactics have changed. Its now about engaging with the community so that the Police and public solve crime together. The Police need intelligence. The PCSO's do a good job, but they cant be expected to intervene when someone is brandishing a knife. All they have is a pair of handcuffs and the same powers of arrest as an ordinary citizen.



Ultimately knife crime is a highly complex issue and it will only be solved when the Police, teachers, the CPS, the prison and probation service, lawyers, politicians, social workers, doctors, housing management etc get in a room together and agree some common objectives and tactics.

slatnumber7


Joined: 25/08/2010
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
28/11/2011 14:54

ilovecyprus Msg 16 I understand your point of view and I would like to debate it elsewhere, so picking out the bones of Visitor's Msg 1.

There will always be citizens who break the law and commit crime they balance the chances of their crime being detected and regard imprisonment as a calculated risk. So let's consider more resources at the disposal of the police and more spaces created in gaols?

PCSO's do a worth while job I agree but nevertheless it's still policing on the cheap, what's the difference between a 'Special' tackling a man armed with a knife and a 'Bobby' doing the same, he has hand cuffs too and granted, a baton. The man armed with the knife will not make any consideration of who holds the power of arrest. If either use excessive force they will probably be disciplined and may face prosecution. So let's consider more supportive legislation for the police and the honest citizen and pay less attention to the human rights of violent offenders and criminals in general.

Visitor


Joined: 19/08/2010
Posts: 492

Message Posted:
28/11/2011 14:56

I am not expecting the police to solve societies ills. But I do think they should intervene where they are witnessing a crime. Policing has altered dramatically but not always for the better. If your burgled, the only response contact you have is to obtain a crime no for insurance purposes. Gone are the days when a policeman would visit.



Engaging with the community - I would argue that they are invisible to most of the community.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
28/11/2011 15:32

msge 16



Hi slatnumber7



Good points.



PCSO's are policing on the cheap. Its the way it is. GMP as an example, have to slash their budget by 134 million and get rid of 10% of the force. The Police have to get smarter and deploy in hot spots.

I agree all Police officers/PCSO's should be allowed to use all necessary force. You can't be soft with a drugged up maniac who is ready to kill you.

I was talking to a PCSO who used to be a bouncer. He said he has become far more effective in diffusing hostile situations , more so than officers because he has to talk to people and cant rely on force. Too much force can also be a problem. Its a hard balance for the police to achieve.



Much crime is about weighing up the pros and cons. Knife crime is different though, it is often committed by guys with poor impulse control who's only thought is to avoid shame. Guilt does not do it for them, but they do need to know that there is a force out there that is greater than them - the Police.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
28/11/2011 15:44

msge 18



Hi Visitor



All of what you said is right. Cant disagree with anything.



Its largely about Police Numbers. There are far too many of them sitting behind desks, however the demand on their resources is quite incredible. They have to deal with 60 million calls a year, of which I think 20 million are recordable crimes.



Here are a couple of the funnier calls



http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/multimedia/news/latest-news/audio/2011/11/23/999-call-to-merseyside-police-a-wasp-in-my-house-is-going-to-kill-me-100252-29825822/



http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/multimedia/news/latest-news/audio/2011/11/23/999-call-to-merseyside-police-there-s-a-pigeon-in-my-back-garden-100252-29825820/

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
28/11/2011 15:46

Fact: Parliament is sovereign in the UK.



You cannot blame Judges for length of sentencing that they may or maynot pass.

They can only act within the rules laid down by parliament... or heaven help us.. Brussels.



We cannot blame the police as again thay must act within the rules established... by parliament.

In violent cases where they do get a conviction how frustrating it must be for them to see so many of these people walk free not long after.



As in so many things , if not all, the blame lies square and fair with MPs.



And in my humble opinion, this bunch are answerable, no longer to the voter, but to "The Party"



But then what's new?



Regards Joseph

slatnumber7


Joined: 25/08/2010
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
28/11/2011 16:05

Msg 18 Visitor with the greatest respect, you got your interpretation of the link you posted wrong maybe you should look at the photograph again. The article is reported as bystander hailed as hero while police stood motionless.



I doubt if those officers, Bobbies or Specials had taken stock of the situation when the photograph was taken. So there is little prospect that they had witnessed the crime. Should that have been the case and they were negligent then I am sure the trial judge would have mentioned it when sentencing Henry.



Your comment on being a victim of burglary is not accurate but it is a practice in some parts of the UK to award a points system to some crimes to determine the worth of a further investigation on a cost and manpower basis. However, that points system is not applied to crimes of violence, burglary and certain other crimes. I believe it is wrong and I wouldn't think the police are content about the situation but without the resourses what else can be don

babydoll


Joined: 27/07/2011
Posts: 140

Message Posted:
28/11/2011 16:48

just by carrying a knife shows premeditation,A friend of my nephew in London got 3 month's for carrying a knife in 09,he got caught again this year in july and got 6 months suspended speaks for itself really as posted earlier you get more for benefit fraud.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
28/11/2011 17:14

msge 23



babydoll



My understanding is..



There are two types of kids who carry a knife. There are a small minority of mean dudes that you just would not want to mess with. Just the wrong look or glance can send them off in to a spin. They have very little concern about the consequences of their actions. These kids have often experienced lots of pain and abuse in their own lives. Inflicting pain on others may bring them a feeling of relief. The tools they carry are designed to gain them respect from their gang, and they are as much symbols of toughness as they are potential weapons.



The other type are kids, are those who are much more conscious and thoughtful about their actions. These kids carry knives simply to protect themselves from the mean dudes.



Finally, you end up with an arms escalation, similar to the cold war. The Russians build nuclear weapons. In response the Americans build more. In response the Russians build more and so on.

BigMart


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 423

Message Posted:
28/11/2011 17:30

4 years isn't really fair on the poor little lad, he has probably had a very hard upbringing and didn't know any better. Instead of prison he should have been sent on safari or a nice cruise to help him become better adjusted to society.



You people are so unforgiving at times.

Visitor


Joined: 19/08/2010
Posts: 492

Message Posted:
28/11/2011 17:38

The sentence of Junior Henry, a knife wielding gang member involved in the murder of one young man and directly responsible for stabbing another, is an ineffective disgrace. Four years! After all the rhetoric and harsh words by politicians and the like following the riots this is what the judge gives as his verdict.



Since that Supervision Order was imposed following the murder charge, Henry has been back in front of Judge Peter Beaumont three times for breaching it. On March 7th 2011 he appeared before the Judge and was told this was his last chance and if he breached the Order again he was going to feel his wrath.

On 16th March, just nine days after this warning, Henry was arrested for an assault and charged. He was convicted on the 26th July and bailed back to the Crown Court to see Judge Beaumont and feel his wrath.

On the 29th August, Henry was at the Notting Hill Carnival when a fight broke out. A man tried to break up the fight and Henry pulled out a knife and stabbed him.

Visitor


Joined: 19/08/2010
Posts: 492

Message Posted:
28/11/2011 17:39

There are three categories of offence:



Category 1 - Serious Injury and Higher Culpability, starting point 12 years, 9 to 16 years depending upon aggravating and mitigating factors.

Category 2 - Serious Injury and Lower Culpability, or Less Serious Injury and Higher Culpability, starting point 6 years, 5 to 9 years depending upon aggravating and mitigating factors.

Category 3 - Less Serious Injury and less Culpability, starting point 4 years, 3 to five years depending upon aggravating and mitigating factors.



Higher culpability will include things such as use of a weapon.

slatnumber7


Joined: 25/08/2010
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
28/11/2011 18:08

Msg 27 Which ever way you spin it it comes back to the same things, rediculous sentencing guidelines, not enough gaols, lack of police resources and a society in decay.



This problem lays with the politicians to resolve and currently they should shoulder the blame not the police or judges. The complete Criminal Justice System needs a major revamp, only politicians can order that to be done.



I don't agree that all first time offenders should receive custodial sentences unless it is for a serious crime. However, habitual criminals need to be punished with longer custodial sentences to protect society and to deter other would be offenders. That will not happen until the government of the day aknowledges the need to fund the problem and address it.