"An Open letter to Angela Merkel"

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 15:58

http://www.express.co.uk/ourcomments/view/289553

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 16:02

Dear Madame Chancellor,

PERMIT me to begin this letter with a brief description of my knowledge of, and affection for, your country.



I first came to Germany as a boy student aged 13 in 1952, two years before you were born. After three extended vacations with German families who spoke no English I found at the age of 16 and to my pleasure that I could pass for German among Germans.



In my 20s I was posted as a foreign correspondent to East Germany in 1963, when you would have been a schoolgirl just north of East Berlin where I lived.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 16:03

I know Germany, Frau Merkel, from the alleys of Hamburg to the spires of Dresden, from the Rhine to the Oder, from the bleak Baltic coast to the snows of the Bavarian Alps. I say this only to show you that I am neither ignoramus nor enemy.



I also had occasion in those years to visit the many thousands of my countrymen who held the line of the Elbe against 50,000 Soviet main battle tanks and thus kept Germany free to recover, modernise and prosper at no defence cost to herself.



And from inside the Cold War I saw our decades of effort to defeat the Soviet empire and set your East Germany free.



I was therefore disappointed last Friday to see you take the part of a small and vindictive Frenchman in what can only be seen as a targeted attack on the land of my fathers.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 16:05

We both know that every country has at least one aspect of its society or economy that is so crucial, so vital that it simply cannot be conceded. For Germany it is surely your automotive sector, your car industry.



Any foreign-sourced measure to target German cars and render them unsaleable would have to be opposed to vetopoint by a German chancellor.



For France it is the agricultural sector. For more than 50 years members of the EU have been taxed under the terms of the Common Agricultural Policy in order to subsidise France’s agriculture. Indeed, the CAP has been the cornerstone of every EU budget since the first day.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 16:05

Attack it and France fights back.



For us the crucial corner of our economy is the financial services industry. Although parts of it exist all over the country it is concentrated in that part of London known even internationally as “the City”.



It is not just a few greedy bankers; we both have those but the City is far more. It is indeed a vast banking agglomeration of more banks than anywhere else in the world.



But that is the tip of the iceberg. Also in the City is the world’s greatest concentration of insurance companies.



Add to that the brokers; traders in stocks and shares worldwide, second only, and then maybe not, to Wall Street. But it is not just stocks.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 16:06

The City is also home to the “exchanges” of gold and precious metals, diamonds, base metals, commodities, futures, derivatives, coffee, cocoa… the list goes on and on.



And it does not yet touch upon shipping, aviation, fuels, energy, textiles… enough. Suffice to say the City is the biggest and busiest marketplace in the world.



It makes the Paris Bourse look like a parish council set against the United Nations and even dwarfs your Frankfurt many times.



That, surely, is the point of what happened in Brussels. The French wish to wreck it and you seem to have agreed. Its contribution to the British economy is not simply useful nor even merely valuable.



It is absolutely crucial. The financial services industry contributes 10 per cent of our Gross Domestic Product and 17.5 per cent of our taxation revenue.



A direct and targeted attack on the City is an attack on my country. But that, although devised in Paris, is what you have chosen to support.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 16:07

You seem to have decided that Britain is once again Germany’s enemy, a situation that has not existed since 1945.



I deeply regret this but the choice was yours and entirely yours. The Transaction Tax or Tobin Tax you reserve the right to impose would not even generate money for Brussels.



It would simply lead to massive emigration from London to other havens. Long ago it was necessary to live in a city to trade in it.



In the days when deals can flash across the world in a nanosecond all a major brokerage needs is a suite of rooms, computers, telephones and the talent of the young people barking offers and agreements down the phone.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 16:08

Such a suite of rooms could be in Berne, Thun, Zurich or even Singapore. Under your Tobin Tax tens of thousands would leave London.



This would not help Brussels, it would simply help destroy the British economy.



Your conference did not even save the euro. Permit me a few home truths about it. The euro is a Franco-German construct.



It was a German chancellor (Kohl) who ordered a German banker (Karl Otto Pohl) to get together with a French civil servant (Delors) on the orders of a French president (Mitterrand) and create a common currency.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 16:08

Which they did. IT was a flawed construct. Like a ship with a twisted hull it might float in calm water but if it ever hit a force eight it would probably founder.



Even then it might have worked for it was launched with a manual of rules, the Growth And Stability Pact. If the terms of that book of rules had been complied with the Good Ship Euro might have survived.



But compliance was entrusted bto the European Central Bank which catastrophically failed to insist on that compliance.



Rules governing the growing of cucumbers are more zealously enforced. This was a European Bank in a German city under a French president and it failed in its primary, even its sole, duty.



This had everything to do with France and Germany and nothing whatever to do with Britain.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 16:09

Yet in Brussels last week the EU pack seemed intent only on venting its spleen on the country that wisely refused to abolish its pound.



You did not even address yourselves to saving the euro but only to seeking a way to ensure it might work in some future time.



But the euro will not be saved. It is crumbling now. And since you have now turned against my country, from this side of the Channel, Madame Chancellor, one can only say of the euro: YOU MADE IT, YOU MEND IT.

Geoff1131


Joined: 12/07/2007
Posts: 276

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 16:37

Good article Bill. Just hope someone who can do anything about the mess reads it too.

wattys


Joined: 07/10/2008
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 16:42

The best posting I have ever seen on this sight and so true.

ranger5


Joined: 29/03/2011
Posts: 151

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 16:44

Well done Bill. This article deserves wider scope than on Cyprus44

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 16:45

I can't take the credit for this I copied the link from the Express.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 16:53

Interesting letter Bill



He is right. They just cant expect Britain to wind down its city business.



The writing was on the wall. The French outmanoeuvred us with the EU commission appointments. We wanted the Presidency, we couldn't have this, but were told we could have the foreign secretary position. In his hurry to have a British appointment high up the food chain, Gordon Brown forgot about the finance minister. This went to France. Ever since the French have been planning their finance strategy.

Now a senior Frenchman at the EU wants us to give up our rebate. What is going on with our relationship with the French? Supposedly we are still going to join our military forces.



Anyway, EU banks have just gone through a stress test. They have a capital shortfall of 96.8 billion.



Also a number of EU banks have to start paying debt which stands at 1.7 trillion EUROS.



Nobody wants to take the pain - be that governments, banks, the general public creditors, debtors

ranger5


Joined: 29/03/2011
Posts: 151

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 17:00

Yes,I should not have dived in without opening the first post. Good protocol!!

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 17:04

There's some interesting developments in Europe today, the German coalition party, the Free Democrats, general secretary, has unexpectedly resigned amidst a party wide referendum on whether to support the eurozones new €500bn rescue fund.



Interesting times ahead!

rocking


Joined: 05/11/2008
Posts: 421

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 17:11

Thank you Bill could not do it myself - I truly hope her Public Relations people go through all press cuttings and she gets to see this. I hope those in the UK do not buy anything French after Sarkozy's treatment of Cameron he behaved like a spoilt child - and looking at the stock markets etc., today and the news I feel other member states will have a job convincing their public to hand everything over to Brussels.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 17:19

All this talk of protecting the City from EU regulations is all well and fine but the treaty changes that Cameron 'vetoed' were nothing to do with such changes. They proposed no changes to how financial services are regulated nor placed any new requirments on the UK or any other country outside the Eurozone. It is true that the EU may well be planning to introduce new regulations on the finacial services industry, but none of them were within this proposed treaty change, nor would it or will change if such future regulations are subject to indivdual countires vetos or qualifed majority voting. That is all already defined in the Lisbon treaty and if we agreed these changes or not that would still be the case. For me it is hard to see how this failed attempt to blackmail the rest of the EU into giving protections now in return for us agreeing to treaty changes that do not affect us either way enhances our ability to protect the city from future regulation from the EU. [cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 17:22

I do not think this 'veto' has benefited the UK at all. It is clear that it has benfited Cameron however in terms of popularity in the UK if the polls are to be believed. If anything it has severly undermined our ability to protect the city from future Eu regulation as far as I can see.

I would also say all these comparisons between the financial service industry and other industries like automaking in germany or agriculture in France miss the point for me. It was not automakers or farmers who were the architects of the global finacial mess we are in today, nor were they the ones who profited from getting us into this mess. It was the financial services industry with the compliance of various governments thatgot us into this mess in the process making billions for themselves and handing the losses and consequences to the wider public. Thus the idea that this sector needs change and new regulation and others do not makes sense to me even if the UK is more dependent on it than others.

Allan


Joined: 28/12/2010
Posts: 40

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 17:27

Interesting story written by an excellent author and I think most of it is true. I suppose it depends on what side of the channel you live. Good thread.

Geoff1131


Joined: 12/07/2007
Posts: 276

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 17:31

erolz, i might agree with you if the only sector involved were the banks. But the new regulations that the eu are wanting to implement affect all of the financial industry, banks, insurance, stock market, and all the perifery agencies like the metal markets and commodities. The new FTT would penalise the uk far more than any other eu country so i think the pm was right to veto it.

Clarissa2


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 1476

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 17:36

Re: Msg 19,20

Thank you, erolz.

At least one person who can analyse things logically, without usual hooray-patriotic and xenophobic platitudes of parochial minds!

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 17:45

Geoff1131 the PM did not veto a new FTT. What he tried to do was 'trade' (blackmail) signing a treaty change that would have had no effect on the UK unless it was to join the Euro in exchange for promises that the city would not be subject to a FTT or other legislation that the UK did not like re finacial services in the future. He failed. He not only did not get the protections but he has instead made it much harder for the UK to get such protections as and when the EU does make such proposals as far as I can see.



The UK can veto a 'tobin tax'. It could do so before this latest proposal and would still have been able to after it if the UK had agreed. Nothing has changed there. However many of the other possible nre regulations the EU may propose in the future will not, unlike a tobin tax, be subject to indivdual country vetos, they will be down to qualifed majority voting. How trying to blackmail the rest of the EU and failing helps protect the UK fromthose I do not know ?

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 17:48

Message 23. I hope you are not referring to anyone posting on this thread.

Clarissa2


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 1476

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 18:06

Re: Msg18,

Talking of spoilt children: Cameron only voiced his position at 2.30 am (!) at the summit when everyone was half-dead, and then started demanded concessions for the UK, which had nothing to do with the topic of the summit. No wonder they told him where to go...

Even the Foreign Office says that strategically it was a disaster: conservatives baked the document on the 11th hour, so no time was left for consultations or preliminary talks with possible allies.

So much more could have been achieved in true British interests if handled properly instead of a stupid veto and walking out like a sulky child.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 19:15

An interesting article, Bill. I am sorry to have had to read the definite self-destruction of Mr Cameron's UK. The future of a United Europe would have been stronger with the full cooperation and a leading role (!) of the UK.

But, let's face and write the truth. The UK has ALWAYS been the delaying and destructive factor in a Europe that tries to look at and work for a prosperous future.

OK, I, a dedicated European and global citizen, now will state my hope.

Get out, UK, with your 60 millions of people. It looks like that's what most of the poor blinded British want. Bow for the USA and eat the scraps. Forget your 'City', Berlin and Paris are as interesting as London. Do you really think, dear British, that 600 million people in Europe will take the British demands and commands any longer?



[ more ]

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 19:18

[ continued from msg 27 ].



2011 Will be a year to remember. After losing the "Empire" you'll now loose the "City". It's almost over. Do you really think 10x more Europeans than British will bow for selfishness indefinitely? The British have only be "Europeans" in words - never in deeds.

Congratulations with your 'splendid isolation'. Too bad too many in the UK don't see the sign of the times.

padisha


Joined: 09/07/2011
Posts: 131

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 19:45

messages 27/28------------wow, what a rant--------------not saying what my position is, but you are showing what a total anti-brit you are-----------------what is the cause of your personal problem?......being İrish İ know what mine is..........!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

rocky


Joined: 17/10/2007
Posts: 1749

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 19:45

anti British Clogsy is at it again...should we class his comments as racist and kick him off here.. several countries needed the UK during the war...also I am told that Germany may have billions of assets or spoils from the war, should they be repaid or left in Swiss vaults..we are not in the Euro and clogsy if he lives in Cyprus elects to live outside the Euro zone?

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 19:54

@ msg 30: There we go again. "The war" as an argument, from some 60 years ago. There IS no war. My children and grandchildren don't know or care about it. Their future is tomorrow. Come up with a better text - if you can.

Clarissa2


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 1476

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 20:07

Re: Msg29 &30

"...wow, what a rant..."

Exactly! It applies though to msg 30 and many other similar ones.

I suggest you stay on topic of the thread, if you have anything intelligent to say about the events of last Friday.



It's really tiring to read constant xenophobic outbursts here peppered with personal insults!

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 20:25

msge 28



The likelihood of the EURO crashing is extremely high anyway. Britains veto was just a side issue and our isolation is a certitude. Those in the EURO are being forced to get closer in to bed. They want to use all the EU mechanisms to their own end and everyone outside will get pushed to one side.



Anyway, the writing of the fiscal union may never happen. The ECB are not talking up fiscal union and how are countries going to force sanctions on weaker countries and will they ever accept them? Fiscal union is only going to aggravate the nightmare in those southern countries. They just cant compete and all countries cant deflate themselves out of a crisis at the same time.



Lets ask the Greeks about the war and who they feel is more selfish, the Brits or the Germans. Many Greeks are still extremely resentful, feeling that Germany still owes them money from the second world war and now they are pushing austerity measures on them. German flags are being burnt not Bri

rocky


Joined: 17/10/2007
Posts: 1749

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 20:45

we should care about the war if we dont learn from history we are no better than cavemen, I do get fed up of people knocking the Brits lots of peole do that but will willingly accept their money and aid.....the euro was never a goer and I will be surprised if it survives...

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 20:58

Msg 27,.. Wind your neck in Hans dear boy on a report the other day on the "Today" program on radio 4 they interviewed a number of Dutch people on the subject of being in the EU and a part of the Euro and most if not all said that if they had a chance to vote they would vote to get out !



I think it was 69% of the poll said "out" so you must be in a minority but having said that you don't live in a country thats a part of the EU strange that don't you think.

padisha


Joined: 09/07/2011
Posts: 131

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 21:06

Clarissa2-------------could not agree more about xenophobic outbursts--------------no idea what you mean about personal insults-------------asked a question----------do you or anybody else sense an anti-brit sentiment in posts 27 and 28?

newscoop


Joined: 23/12/2007
Posts: 2197

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 21:12

One simple question;



The UK allegedly throws £50 million per day into the EUSSR gravy boat



No one knows for sure what it gets back



Again allegedly the EUSSR via the IMF is holding the UK to account for £30 BILLION more to bail out the stupid countries in the Euro.



If they kicked the UK out (please) how would they replace the missing funds?

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 21:25

There appears to be a growing number of Europhiles on here getting more and more concerned for the UK and how its going to be affected by the veto or is it more that they are getting a little worried that the good old english pound might not be winging its way to Brussels in such large numbers anytime soon.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 21:29

newscoop firstly there is no mechanism or means to 'kick out' any member state of the EU.



It is true that the UK is a net contributor to the EU, that is it pay out more than it recieves but the idea that it gets nothing back in monetary terms is not correct. To give one example the UK will recieve 9.4 billion Euros is structural funds from the EU in the period 2007-2013 at 2004 prices. http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/ http://www.berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/regional/european-structural-funds/index.html

Believe it or not we also get around 7% of the total common agricultural payments. We are a net contributor but then so is Germany and France, though not to the same degree in France's case.

As for the IMF they offer loans, that is those who put the money up get their money back with interest unless there is default.

I am not saying there are not issues with the EU and the UK's part in it but the idea that we pay in and get nothing back monetarily is just not correct.

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 21:31

you got it turts , time to wake up and smell the bratwursts .

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 21:37

Do not forget that the UK itself went 'cap in hand' to the IMF not so long ago. This was no 'gift' but a loan, that came with harsh conditions attached.



Turtle I am neither a europhile or anti the EU. I am a pragmatist. I just do not see what was gained by Camerons actions other than a popularity boost for Cameron and his party in the polls. We have not clawed back any powers. We have not reduced our fiscal comitments to the EU. We have not gained any protections for the 'City'. We have 'achieved' all this nothing by refusing to agree to treaty changes that would have had no effect on us unless we were to join the Euro and that everyone else in and out of the Euro is willing to coutenance. I just do not see what has been gained but I can see that much has been risked.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 21:37

@ msg 39, erolz: (...) firstly there is no mechanism or means to 'kick out' any member state of the EU. (...)



▶ That's correct (and so is the rest of your post). But as usual it's impossible to have a debate with people who do not know the basic facts. Forget the paranoid xenophobes who think that a different point of view makes one an "anti-Brit". Too bad that some in this thread seem to have finished their education at the age of sixteen.

Clarissa2


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 1476

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 21:41

Re: Msg 33,

One thing is crushing of the Euro, the other is dismantling.

The first is not in anybody's interest (even the US were displeased at the last week's stalemate), the second, as most of the economists now agree, is inevitable.



So Cameron's position of 'cutting off the nose to spite the face' in order to appease the most radical members of his party is not helpful to ANYONE (lest of all to Britain with its high level of exposure )



Anyway, the news reports say that this week there are going to be a lot of diplomatic talks with the EU in order to repair the damage done. But now, like never before, TIME is of the essence.

Let us hope that it's not too late, and that we won't wake up tomorrow with the news that the world's financial markets had been wiped out!



P.S. Everyone seems to forget that it is not the Euro that caused the world economic crisis in the first place!

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 21:48

Whats wrong with you people good or bad the majority of the British public do not want the Euro and there is a growing number of people who hate what constraints the EU put upon British business and public at large.



Its simple we don't like it in its present form so stop worrying about us and get on with your own hands tied behind your backs paying a fortune life in the Euro.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 21:49

As far as net contributions to the EU goes this is a useful source of info



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union#State_by_state_analysis



The UK is the 6th largest net contributor per capita to the EU, behind the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweeden, Germany Austria and only slightly ahead of France and Italy. Even the RoC is a net contributor, unlike Spain or Ireland.



Yes we pay in more than we get out, but so do all of the richer EU countries and we are by no means the 'biggest' payer in this regard. There is this perception that we pay more than anyone else but it is just not true.



There is a perception that we pay

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 21:53

more in and get less out than everyone else in the EU and it is simply not a correct perception.

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 21:56

well we certainly get more foreigners in than any one else in the eu ? and when they are in , its less out ,

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 21:56

just for the record DC I finished my (formal) education at 16 I like to think I have never stopped learning or trying to understand despite leaving school at 16 and hope I never will.

newscoop


Joined: 23/12/2007
Posts: 2197

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 21:57

erolz;



the fact that the EUSSR gives us some of our money back is not important,the question was what would they replace our funding with.



Speaking as an uneducated paranoid xenophobe i'm starting to find certain posts on here racist against the Brits.



But then they're probably a figment of my fascist imagination.



The children and grandchildren of current Europeans are screwed anyway, and for that they can thank their parents generation and the undemocratic EU.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 22:01

Again Rowlo is that a fact or just a perception ? Hard reliable figures are hard to come by but you could have a look here for a start if you want numbers rather than 'one liners'.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migration_rate

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 22:03

erolz, 3 million + ,unemployed in the uk , give it a rest geezer .

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 22:04

msge 43



The demise of the EURO took place at its inception. Did nobody think that monetary union was not enough without fiscal union and that countries have very different cultures.



"TIME is of the essence".



That's a joke. This has been dragging on for ages. Supposedly the only concrete decision taken last week was for the leaders to get together again in three months time.



It is true that diplomats will be working hard to repair relationships.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 22:05

@ msg 44, Turtle: (...) British business (...)

▶ Fact: more than half of the British export goes to the EU. What do you think will happen if you leave the EU (members CAN leave)?

Are you going to compete with high prices against let's say the top quality goods of Germany and other countries?!

And how long will non-EU and EU-owners of British factories etc stay in the UK?



P.S. I'm not worrying about you - I only think that a stubborn 19th century attitude does not befits the UK 2011.

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 22:07

As usual if the 27 don't agree rules will be changed to make sure they do,...... how democratic ?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 22:07

Newscoop the EU would fund itself fine without the UK's net contribution, by either increasing contributions from existing net contributors or reducing expenditure. It is not like the EU was unable to fund itself before the UK entered it is it ?



The children and grandchildren of the UK's population may well be as screwed as those in the EU and I doubt that would be any less true if the UK had never entered the EU at all. The fact is in the UK just as in many other places we have actualy sustained a lifestyle beyond our means by the use of debt that most who benfited from such borrowing will not be the ones to pay the bulk of it back, but it will be their children and grandchildren who pay it back. That is as true in the UK as it is in many places in the EU , though much less so in say Germany than it is true in the UK.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 22:11

@ msg 49, newscoop: (...) Speaking as an uneducated paranoid xenophobe i'm starting to find certain posts on here racist against the Brits.



▶ I repeat: ... who think that a different point of view makes one an "anti-Brit"...

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 22:11

erolz,... the EU reduce expenditure can't see that happening can you....... honestly

BillBarnacle


Joined: 20/04/2009
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 22:14

Just for DC



If you think for one minute that Britain will suffer following our use of a veto last week then you are deluded. Steps are already being taken to smooth ruffled feathers. Not only that but it appears that a number of countries who indicated support have now found out that their electorates have a different view.I include in this group not only your country but also France who are decidedly unimpressed with Sarkozy and are likely to oust him in an election in the next few months.

Two facts for you

1.The euro will not survive in its current form

2.Unless the eurozone get their house in order it will collapse in a destructive way which MAY result in the EU disintegrating



Enjoy your evening

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 22:14

Rowlo I am not sure what it is you want me to 'give a rest' ? Do you just want me to not post my opinions if I think they may not match yours ?



I simply have no idea why the unemployment figure you quote for the UK supports your claim that the UK 'gets more foriegners' than anyone else in the EU ?



The UK is in a mess. The EU is in a mess. The Euro is in a mess. The whole world economy is in a mess. All this is true. The idea that if the UK was not in the EU then it would not be in a mess is just unsupportable in my view. Nor can I see what the UK gained from Cameron's veto of treaty changes that would not affect the UK as long as it stays out of the Euro. I can see what Cameron has gained. I have yet to understand what the UK gained by this action.

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 22:16

Hans my business in the UK sells German manufactured products,... a few million pounds worth actually and let me tell you they are top top price items already yes they are good but would the price increase if we are outside the EU I doubt it.



Business is business wherever you live and in a competative market well you know the rest !

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 22:23

BillBarnacle the Euro may not survive in its current form, the EU may disintegrate.



I STILL fail to see what the UK 'gained' from Camerons action ? Maybe you can explain it to me ? What obligation do we no longer have as a result of it ? What future obligation have we avoided by refusing to countenace any such changes to those on eurozone members ? If I have misunderstood and we did actual gain something new or avoid some onerous future obligation by refusing to agree to treaty changes that affect only eurozone members, then please do tell me what they are so I can understand.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 22:24

@ msg 60, Turtle: (...) but would the price increase if we are outside the EU I doubt it. (...)

▶ No of course not. But British goods, exported to the EU, may well experience a tax hurdle too high. If you don't accept the rules of the game, don't expect to play in the team.

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 22:29

we don't export that much these days , that's why we never joined the single currency , they can't squeeze us that way ?

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 22:31

Hans I don't think you fully understand the rule of fair trade introduced by you beloved EU.



Whether in or out price fixing or unfair tax is a defo no no,..... you should know that

BillBarnacle


Joined: 20/04/2009
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 22:33

Erolz



The benefit we have gained is that any future attempt to integrate Britain into the EU will require a referendum and there is ZERO chance the British public will agree to it



DC



Tax hurdles = protectionism i doubt it, the Germans have more to lose if we tax their BMWs and Merc s and the French their cheeses onions and garlic



Trade is trade

ranger5


Joined: 29/03/2011
Posts: 151

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 22:39

With Erolz and Hans now in top gear as amateur financial experts, and me also being a school leaver at 15!! Time to go to bed I think.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 22:40

Britain's fate is largely in its own hands and it always has been.



If it can develop a resilient multi faceted offering then things will be fine (like any country). We have to use our language to great effect and sell to the middle classes of the developing markets. (it will be a challenge)



It is inconceivable that Europe would deny us the same free trading rights as Switzerland. If they did then I you are moving one step closer to hostilities.



It is true that countries may choose not to position their firm in the UK because we are not at the heart of the Europe, but again that depends on the flexibility and skill of the workforce. Getting rid of costly European employment directives would help greatly. Most companies now realise that good staff relationships depend on being fair to staff and providing them with autonomy and mastery.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 22:43

msge 67



correction



then you are moving



good staff relations

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 22:43

BillBarnacle that was true already and not a result of Cameron's 'veto' on these changes, as I understand it. If Cameron had not refused to counteance treaty changes that would only affect Eurozone members it would still be true. So I find it hard to accept that this was 'gained' as a result of his 'veto' because er in simple terms it just was not.

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 22:46

Erolz you keep labouring this point for some reason.



My opinion is this is only the first step for the UK to grab back some power simple as that

BillBarnacle


Joined: 20/04/2009
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 22:50

Erolz

The situation before the veto was a referendum would ONLY be required if the treaty change transfered powers.



Now it is unlikely any agreement could be signed by Cameron as it would tear apart his party.The result is that a decision will have to be made soon as to whether we fully sign up to the EU project.



This means an IN or OUT referendum will be needed and the answer will be OUT

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 22:52

how come if you phone lloydstsb , from edinburgh , someone in dheli answers the phone ? and doesn't have a clue what you are talking about ?

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 22:55

Rowlo, probably India will be the next country "In"





Well they are a growing ecomomy

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 23:02

oh thats good turts , i thought we were trying to exploit them ,

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 23:04

So if I understand you Bill you think that because Cameron vetoed this, the UK will now get a referendum on if we should leave the EU in its entirity ?



Sounds like wishful thinking to me but I could be wrong. Personally I can see no way that Cameron could bring in the necessary legislation to provide the UK with a referendum on if we should stay in the EU without teraing his party apart let alone the coalition goverment.



And of course lets not metnion the 'legality' of a country signing a treaty agreement like Lisbon and then deciding down the line that having signed it it has now changed its mind and will just ignore having signed it. Sure we could just renage on such a treaty but the idea that we can do so at will with no impact on our ability to sign treaties with other countries and have it trusted that we will honor such agreements seems to me more wishful thinking.



Or would you see a 'negotiated' exit of the UK, given Camerons skill in that department EU wise ?

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 23:11

I don't think the UK govenment wants out ,..... just a bit of balancing of power

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 23:14

Neither do I turtle but it seems that Bill is arguing that is what was 'gained' by Camerons veto ? That we will now have to have a referendum on continued UK membership of the EU. Like I said already, to me that seems more like wishful thinking than an actual tangible 'gain' for the UK as a result of the use of the 'veto' but I could be wrong.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 23:18

msge 76



You are right Turtle. It might seem strange but Cameron does not want to come out of Europe. He was eventually hoping to get Conservatives to be at peace with Europe. He now has a big problem because he is being cheered on by the right. He will hate this because he does not want to be bracketed on the right, but wants to be defined as a centre progressive politician. Its why he gets on so well with Nick Clegg.

steve.sewell


Joined: 07/11/2011
Posts: 277

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 23:20

I have to say cameron looked on edge and not very confident in the houses of commons the other day, i hope he has not done this just to boost his popularity.

I am certain the euro will not crash.

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 23:21

two bums stuck in the same ass hole msg 78 .

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 23:24

Having said that rowlo if your countryman Idiot Brown had done what he promised we would not be discussing this !

steve.sewell


Joined: 07/11/2011
Posts: 277

Message Posted:
14/12/2011 23:26

80



should it not be, two arse holes stuck in the same bum ?

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 00:09

Britain may not be alone - Hungary, Sweden and Ireland are wobbling

padisha


Joined: 09/07/2011
Posts: 131

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 00:11

but what about all my bloody dutch euros that i brought over and loads of german euros?

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 00:20

stuff them in the bums ass holes , or ass holes bums , depending on how you view it .

padisha


Joined: 09/07/2011
Posts: 131

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 00:24

İt is so nice to have things clarified

deputydawg


Joined: 30/03/2010
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 00:39

I have no idea whether or not Cameron made the right decision with the veto and I doubt anyone on this earth knows either, which of course includes Cameron. If I likened all the countries of the world to ships in a tempest they are all vessels overloaded with cargoes of debt and captains/crews who have battoned down all the hatches but cannot read a compass nor plot a course to calmer waters. France used a veto for years to stop the British joining the common market and only relented when they were after Britain's ring fenced pension pots. Anyone who now believes that the EU is not intent on ending Britain's financial institutions in the city of London in their current form, regardless of any veto by Cameron, must still believe all the politicians who over the years pledged that no matters of sovereignty would ever be surrendered to, or taken by the EU ! We need a Margaret Churchill or a Winston Thatcher soonest. Kenny Everett would "bomb the bastards"

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 01:06

we need a MR powell ?

Clarissa2


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 1476

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 01:12

Re: Msg 88 (&1),

No, we need Diana story in the Express.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 01:13

msge 87



Nice methaphor.

I would add that the ships are crashing in to each other. Lets hope the are watertight.



Correction to message 67

"same free trading rights as Switzerland'



It is certain that the EU will ask us to make concessions for free trade. This would certainly include freedom of movement and perhaps employee rights.



So I would say there is no total way out for Britain. We are politically locked in to the EU, its just the degree.

bertieboss


Joined: 22/07/2011
Posts: 149

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 02:10

Message 79 - perish the thought !! David has our best interests at heart and don't forget we're all in this together!!

walkerscott


Joined: 13/08/2009
Posts: 901

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 09:43

David made the right decision. Merkel and Sarkosi were trying very hard to railroad through their idea of controlling the EU. They will not save the Euro as it is. German Quality is no longer that which we know of! I have spent many years in Germany, also have a home there, extended family and know that many Germans do not like what Merkel is up to.

Globalisation and Privatisation of the essential utilities does not work for the population - it destroys it as would a German Controlled Banking Policy!

Although I don't want this Government, David did the right thing for the UK!

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 11:33

Message 89. What's Diana got to do with it?



Take your time.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 12:31

I think this thread of C44 has been the most informative so far in 2011. We should vote for it as the best thread of the year in early January of 2012. The credit should go to all the contributors.

ismet

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 12:54

Ismet - " The credit should go to all the contributors"



Not all of them. )



A big thank you to those that stayed on topic.

john-f


Joined: 31/03/2011
Posts: 29

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 14:38

Quite a lot of posts on here are intelligent and well thought out, whilst I don't agree with the way cameron handled the meeting I agree that the outcome was right for Britain! We have never agreed to intergration only a common market, we have allways resisted having sovereign power taken to brussells. The EU is extremley wastefull and we are going through severe austerity measures. so this should not be an excuse to say we are anti european!!!! the whole point of democracy is that we are allowed to say and veto what we do not agree with. We did not create the euro or its problems, neither did we ever want to join it. When our banks collapsed I did not see european states funding that (other than contributions to IMF) So why then should we be forced into something we do not agree with, do not believe is the answer to save the euro? As the news now shows the honeymoon is over and other countries are having doubts and/or having to put to refferendum.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 14:50

john-f my understanding which might be wrong is that the treaty changes would have applied only to eurozone members. We did not stand against treaty changes that would have affected the UK, we stood against ones that would not have affected us, in order to try and get something else, which we failed totaly to get anyway. We stopped nothing. We gained nothing. We protected ourselves from nothing. In the process we damaged relationships we will need to protect the UK interest within the EU in the future. At least as I understand what is being proposed and what went on.

john-f


Joined: 31/03/2011
Posts: 29

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 15:12

erolz, good post, the problem is that whilst the beurocrats are dancing around their handbags the situation worsens! What on earth has this done to assure the financial sector that the euro issues have been addressed? all the experts point to the fact that Germany (as the strongest economy) needs to shore up the euro bonds to stop speculators worrying that the euro will collapse! nothing was mentioned about that, all that was asked for was a treaty change that wantad ALL EU countries to have their budgets dictated to by Brussells, As we are not in the Euro then we would be forced to comply despite the fact the pound was maybe stronger than the euro. I do however conceed that we gained nothing from the veto, other than maybe forcing the issue (on the euro) sooner rather than later.

Remember this is the umpteenth attept to secure the euro!!!

BillBarnacle


Joined: 20/04/2009
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 15:41

erolz

He did stop something and indirectly we gained alot.First he stopped a new treaty from being drawn up that would have been legally binding on the UK. Anything they cobble together now will sit outside EU treaties.If the eurozone plus start to throw their weight around then the UK can take further legal steps to prevent EU institutions from being involved ie the comission and ecj because we are members of both.



What we have gained is that it is unlikely that any politician can now do anything in the EU without us the public having our say



Finally the deal Cameron vetoed is now looking very shaky as it now appears that six or seven other countries are now expressing doubts their public will sign up.You could say he was right to reject it from the outset



It also appears that the French are soon to be given a bloody nose by having their credit rating downgraded and are looking to blame anyone but themselves



I still say the euro is finished it is only a matter of time

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 15:45

Sometimes in diplomacy you have to be strong. You have to send out a strong message otherwise people don't get it. By using the veto he is showing how important this issue is to Britain. He is sending out a message don't f*** with is.

Cameron knows there are lots of EU financial directives coming down the line which are going to hit us hard and he cannot allow the Euro institutions like the ECJ to be used against our interests. France wants clearing houses handling euro dominated trades to be located in the EUROZONE. This is a direct attack on the city of London.



The fiscal union does nothing to solve this current crisis. Germany is trying to impose penalties and is not facing up to the real issue. The market knows this. The issue is that southern countries are not competitive.

The problem can only ever be solved if the rich companies continually bail out the poorer ones. The southern countries will be on welfare benefits provided by Germany.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 16:27

msge 100



"...will be on welfare benefits provided by Germany".



Perhaps this is not true



Interesting statement by Professor Simon Green - co director of the Aston centre for Europe, Aston university



writing about Germany



"Already its public debt exceeds 80% of its GDP- which has almost doubled since reunification in 1990. For this reason and from 2016, the federal government will be subject to a 'debt brake' of its own. By the governments own calculation, this will require federal public spending cuts in the region of 80 billion over the coming years. It is difficult to see where that will come from if not the welfare budget - risky, with the next Bundestag election in 2013.



In fact it is doubtful whether Germany will meet the requirements of its domestic brake. For 2012 the federal government is planning to increase its net borrowing. Germany may not be the model fiscal citizen it is often portrayed as"

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 16:38

News coming out: the head of the French Central Bank has said that "Britain should have its credit rating downgraded before France" - deepening the war of words between the two country's.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 16:47

msge 102



Bill



I know why the French are smarting now



They have just lost in a blind wine tasting contest. To rub salt in the wound they lost to Ningxia a remote region of China. The Chinese were voted has having the best four wines while the best rated gallic vintage came fifth.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 16:49

John-f that is not my understanding. My understanding is that the proposed treaty changes that will require national budgets to be submitted to brussels would apply ONLY to eurozone countries. The treaty change requires all members to agree but the changes would only affect those in the Euro.

There is no doubt that the EU has a host of proposals to regulation financial service 'down the line' but they were NOT in this proposed treaty change. My understanding is that all of them, except for a tobin tax, would be subject to qualifed majority voting and if voted in by this system the UK has NO ability to avoid them. The ONLY way it can stop such regulations it does not want is by finding enough allies within the EU to work with it to block them. This is going to be much harder now than before Cameron's 'veto'.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 16:56

As far as saving the Euro goes it may be that it is not saveable whatever is done. Yes Germany could bankroll failing Eurozone members, providing them with loans at cheap rates when the market refuses to do so, but that is no solution in itself, which is why Germany is not going to do it without some kind of reform, which is what these proposals were all about. It may well be that the euro as it exists now is just not workable. Certainly much of the 'market' seems to beleive this. However what has brought the crisis on is not the Euro per se, but the global credit crunch. It may just have exposed the inherent flaws in the Euro but the Euro did not create the problem. What has created the problem is excessive browwing without regard for what happens if the source of such money reduces and the cost rises and that is a problem that many countries in the Eurozone and out of it have to deal with.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 16:56

Personally I think that the French having a 'dig' at us has nothing to do with Economics. They just don't want to face the humiliation of being downgraded.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 17:17

msge 105



Yes you are right about the crisis has been bought on by the credit crunch and no the EURO did not create the problem, however the flaws in the system were quite staggering.



"Since the formation of the Eurozone, the cost of producing one unit of output in Germany has barely risen. By contrast, unit labour costs in southern Europe and Ireland have increased by around 40%, causing these economies to lose competitiveness. This is a flaw in the single currency which cannot be put right by bailouts or debt write-offs." ROGER BOOTLE, MANAGING DIRECTOR CAPITAL ECONOMICS



Increases in these labour costs in Greece and Ireland were excessively high and increasing well before the credit crunch.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 17:19

"When Economic and Monetary Union (EMU) was launched, we knew that the economic performance of the member countries had been very different in the previous two decades. The EMU architects assumed that once there was no possibility of future devaluations, all countries would recognise that they had to march to the beat of the German band. This could not have been more wrong, and the southern Europeans in particular allowed their competitiveness to decline with predictable consequences for trade. These divergences are at the heart of the intractable problems of the eurozone today." SIR HOWARD DAVIES, FORMER DIRECTOR OF THE LSE

rocky


Joined: 17/10/2007
Posts: 1749

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 17:33

none of us know what is really going on behind the scenes we only here what the powers want us to hear and what the papers want us to hear and of course angela wont read this thread so it wil achieve nothing

Geoff1131


Joined: 12/07/2007
Posts: 276

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 17:36

Two more countries the Czeck Republic and Hungary are also unlikely to agree to the new treaty. With Denmark and Sweden already likely to reject it, it now seems that the UK is not standing alone.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 17:36

msge 109



rocky I am gutted. I was pretty certain Angela read Cyprus44 just before bedtime and was planning her retirement in NC

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 17:38

Geoff1131 which to me just makes the 'veto' by Cameron look even more of a bad tatical mistake.

Geoff1131


Joined: 12/07/2007
Posts: 276

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 17:41

erolz, There are sheep and then there are shepherds.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 17:48

I agree with Geoff 1131, if it was not for Cameron to reject the others might not have the courage to stand up against Merkozy.

ismet

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 17:54

To be a shepherd you have to be in the 'field'. We walked out of the 'field'. How much more could we have led these other states from within the negotiations than by just walking out ? Even Thatcher in her most bellicose of interactions with the EU never walked out or used the veto. And she actual gained something real and material.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 18:09

msge 115



erolz



We have not left the 'field', we are standing in the corner and saying you can join us if you wish. You may not agree with us on 'city finance' but we both might have some reason to disagree with Germany. You don't want to lose your sovereignty. Perhaps there is a way we can work together so that we both get what we want.



Its a murky world politics.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 18:22

The negotiations for the 'accord' are now going on without us having any input or presense. These other countries that alledgedly also have reservations and may not agree are still part of the negotiations. We are not. If it is true that other countries will end up not agreeing to an accord, then to me our walking out is clearly even more of a tatical error as I see it, in that we could have got the same result (not signing the treaty) without placing ourselves alone on the sidelines and creating so much disapointment from others. Same result , less negative impacts has to be the better result no ?

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 19:31

Dutch



You probably know more of the posters on here who shout the loudest about the EU , Froggies and Krauts etc ,the War, and want us out of Europe(stupid notion as any child with an atlas knows).

Would I therefore be right in saying a good many of them live in TRNC,and therfore this new found patriotism seems a bit strange coming from people who not so long ago were slagging off UK, NHS, many other institutions and the working class in general as lazy no hopers ,and telling everyone how great NC is and how cr-p ythe UK is.

Even more laughable is how they sit round their pools drinking and talking about how they evade taxation on rentals and bank interest, and the have the cheek to complain about taxes to the EU.



My kids have to live in UK with what happens now ,UK and Europe is their home.Its easy to wish for the collapse of EU when the wishers dont live there. Maybe these people should concentrate on the ROC and the property market,thats where their future lies.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 20:00

@ msg 118, girne_29: It's a well known fact (on this board) that I'm responsible for the Second World War (and I'm anti-Brit), am to blame for the horrible events in Srebenica (and I'm anti-Brit), played a dubious role in the Anne Frank drama (and I'm anti-Brit) and if that's not enough: I'm a foreigner from the Continent (and I'm anti-Brit).

Did I mention that I sometimes have a different and pro-EU opinion so I must be anti-Brit?

Let me assure you that I have many British and other English speaking friends in Northern Cyprus. They are also anti-Brit. Anti the British narrow minded people who shout on this board from a position of stupidity.

I'm fine and very pro British - as long as it concerns the friends I've met here.



P.S. I wish your children all the best in the future. A future only viable if the next generation will understand that you can't live in the past. Not even on a rather small island. And I don't mean Cyprus.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 20:42

Christine Lagarde says no country in the world is immune from the crisis and all must take steps to boost growth, with risks of inaction including "isolation and other elements reminiscent of the 1930s depression"



Standard & Poor's has downgraded 10 Spanish banks by applying new ratings criteria, and warned it may lower their short-term scores further.



The 10 banks had their ratings lowered and remained in "creditwatch with negative implications", indicating the risk of a further downgrade.



The change affected CaixaBank, Bankia, Banco Popular, Bankinter, Banco de Sabadell, the holding company Caja de Ahorros y Pensiones de Barcelona, Ibercaja Banco, San Caja de Ahorros y Monte de Piedad de Gipuzkoa y San Sebastian, Bilbao Bizkaia Kutxa and Banco Financiero y de Ahorros.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 20:58

If anyone doubts that reform is necessary just look at the extra ordinary power that these credit rating agencies still have. These are the same credit rating agencies who made billions leading upto to the 2008 crash by taking money to rate bundled up debt products, from the people making and selling these products, as tripple A rated investments when in fact in reality the vast majority of them were worth next to nothing. Without these credit rating agencies doing this, then the bubble that burst in 2008 would not have been anything like as severe. They were instrumental in the creation of this mass bubble that made billions for them and select others and has left us all to carry the can when it all went tits up and they were abjectly wrong in their 'opinions' as to the worthiness of these products yet still wield massive power over whole countries. It is possible through reform to reduce their power and I for one would welcome any such moves even from the dreaed EU.

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 22:01

We all should take in consideration that ALL EU and eurozone member states, by joining a "union", SAVE billions (eg, no insurances needed against changing currency rates).

Germanys net contribution to the EU is high, yes, but the advantages are far bigger. This applies also to the UK, France. . It were the banks who did not want the EU, the eurozone and again the banks would like to see the euro fail. Nobody else. They work on it, they need money! Now the banks "try everything"... and Camerons NO was a deal, nothing else.

I spoke to a norwegian (non EU) friend.. he said: the british believe that they are "brave" (to show "testicles", to have the guts to "stand alone"...) , in reality they are cowards, because this is the deepest "genuflexion" (to the godness money) they could do..

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 22:15

any one listen to the jeremy vine show on BBC radio2 today ?

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 22:16

I caught a bit of it rowlo,... thought provoking !

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 22:21

i wonder if it will happen ? and if it does , what will happen to the greek economy ?

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 22:24

As I have said on Pauls thread the Greek economy growth forecast has been seriously downgraded and its not looking good.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 22:30

Rowlo, what were the comments on the Vine programme please.

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 22:46

n01 , it basically said , the greeks will return to the drachma on a sunday , financial institutions will be closed ? the greek people will awake in the morning , and all the banks will have converted they;re euros back to drachmas , the debt will have gone overnight ? buuuuuuut , they will have to trade internally for maybe a year ? and the drachma , on the monday morning , would be worth , maybe a cent , some greek economist said ,quote , greeks were already moving they;re money to london , buying property in the capital , you can go on to radio2 and do the podcast , jeremyvine@bbc.co.uk ,

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 22:50

It was all hypothetical though.





But you never know it could happen

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 22:51

if the money is shifting , so are the sands turts ?

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 22:57

One thing is for sure rowlo there are bigger problems within the EU than the "Cameron Veto"



Wonder who will get blamed when it all goes belly up.

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 23:32

the french & the germans , are the team leaders , the team has failed , they can't afford the euro to fail , they will pick up the whole debt , bring it on , they bombed us to bits , then we rebuilt they're country , france &germany ,YOUR FIRED ,

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 23:44

Many thanks Rowlo.

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
15/12/2011 23:59

sounds like the genocide files all over again ? turn up the heat , greeks start running ,leaving a trail of misery ,hoping every one else will pick up the pieces and feel sorry for them ,

BillBarnacle


Joined: 20/04/2009
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
16/12/2011 04:13

Clearly the British position on this new treaty was correct all along



1.The UK is to be involved in the technical committees even though we will not be bound by it



2.Numerous other countries are now indicating their dislike for the new proposals



3.The cheese eating surrender monkeys are facing a credit downgrade and in their usual spineless way they call for the UK to be downgraded first. The UK are one of the few countries that are taking steps to resolve their debt which so far the markets are supporting.



That pygmy Sarkozy and his central bank cohort should HOP OFF

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
16/12/2011 10:13

".The cheese eating surrender monkeys..........."



Bill, that's a great line. )

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
16/12/2011 10:59

No1Doyen I guess you dont watch the Simpsons very much then as that is where the phrase comes from.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
16/12/2011 11:55

msge 121



erolz



I agree the credit rating agencies are a problem. They serve a function in making the markets more efficient, however when they target a particular company or government they can create a vicious circle. As you say, with the credit crunch, they got it badly wrong. The same with shorting. It serves a purpose in ensuring that a company is realistically priced, however if fund managers target a company they can bring it down.



Everybody played their part in the crunch, consumers and not least politicians. Clinton then Bush forced lenders to give mortgages to people who could never pay back.



The UK is already making changes to the city. It is separating out retail and investment banking and UK banks have to hold more reserve capital than any EU banks. Can we get to a place where poorly managed risk taking financial institutions go bankrupt without inflicting damage on the system. Its going to be difficult, as too many complex financial instruments exist, and t

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
16/12/2011 11:56

city could be described as one big casino, however it is in the UKs interest to get things changed. Saying that there is a conflict because the UK relies on the tax revenue from the city. The short term myopic pursuit of money for moneys sake is a problem. Money should be a means to enable the real economy to flow

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
16/12/2011 12:21

ilovecyprus - indeed everyone played their part. The part for those in charge of the banks, credit rating agencies and insurance companies was to take home 10's and even 100's of million dollar renumeration packages whilst the part of ordinary people in the US was to be encouraged to take on mortgages they could not afford, face forclosure and then face loosing their jobs as the economy nosedived. They all played a part, some a part of humongeous personal wealth acumulation and others a part of lives destroyed.



Of course there is a valid role for credit rating agencies, if that is they honestly and objectively rate the worthiness of investments. What they did in the lead up to the 2008 crash however was something very different from this, essentialy selling ratings that were not a reflection of the investment saftey but of how much the creators of the product were willing to pay, in the process making billions for themselves.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
16/12/2011 12:30

What happend was not that complicated. Indivduals made vast fortunes from pumping up a bubble and when it burst as they all knew it had to, they walked away with their multi millions and left in their wake a sclae of global economic havoc unseen for generations. They took the profits and we are paying the costs. It really is that simple as far as I am concerned and very little has changed.



One of the plainest and clearest examinations of the global crash in 2008, how it happened, why it happened and who gained and who lost as a result of it is the documentary film 'Inside Job'. It is a must watch film in my view and if anyone wants to borrow a copy just email me.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
16/12/2011 12:55

erolz



"very little has changed"



You are probably right. There is likely to be some very toxic debt still in the system in the form of credit default swaps. The city of London could be sitting on hundreds of billions of them which would pop if the EURO crashes. With the UK government on its knees with no money to bail out the bank it could go horribly wrong.

BillBarnacle


Joined: 20/04/2009
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
16/12/2011 14:19

Look for all the europhiles out there.The euro is dead.It has been dying slowly since the day it was created.All the meetings and steps being taken to halt the decline by the eurozone have failed.After each announcement there is brief hope the the patient has started to breathe again only for hopes to be dashed a couple of days later.Pumping billions of euros into the patient is not going to work either.Its like using a defibrillator on a corpse that has already started to decompose.

The only sensible approach would be to negotiate an orderly breakup of the euro but the individuals who look upon the euro as their baby are blinded to this fact.

As a result billions will be wasted trying to save something that cant be saved and a disorderly breakup will occur which will be far worse for everyone.

An orderly breakup of the euro and the EU will survive

A disorderly breakup and the EU will probably disintegrate also

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
16/12/2011 17:59

BillB, look, there are not so many "europhiles out here", honestly not. there is enough to criticise.

But I believe that one thing you simply did not get: as long there is the political will to keep the euro as a currency of at the moment 17, nobody "from outside" can make the euro fail. The euro might go down to 1:1 to the dollar, may go up to 1:1 to the GBP.

Of course it will affect the world economy, of course it might create more problems to the US crisis, to the british crisis, to many of them... Is it all the Eurozones problem?

It seems that the EUzone17 try to regain power, accepting that it will be costly in the beginning, but will be much cheaper in the future. For me it seems that the EUzone17 or even the EU26/27 try to achieve a bit more sustainibility.

What will be achieved if the Euro fails? nothing. Only the banks can start again to deal with all these new/old currencies again. They have been against the euro anyway. BillB, you fell into a trap.

Or you are a banke

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
16/12/2011 18:59

Calls by France's central bank chief and prime minister to have Britain's credit rating downgraded were Friday branded as "outrageous" and "ignorant" by an angry British press.



French President Nicolas Sarkozy should also feel "ashamed" of his reported outburst at Prime Minister David Cameron after last week's European Union treaty change negotiations, a leading title argued.



http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/british-media-unite-against-outrageous-023856158.html

Clarissa2


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 1476

Message Posted:
16/12/2011 21:13

Have just heard that Fitch has affirmed France's top-notch AAA credit rating but has revised its outlook on the country to "negative" from "stable".



Also Fitch placed Belgium, Spain, Slovenia, Italy, Ireland and Cyprus on rating watch negative with the rating review by the end of January 2012.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
16/12/2011 21:31

Fitch has slashed the credit ratings for a handful of major banks in the U.S. and Europe, sparking fears over the outlook for the world economy.



The mass downgrade heightened concerns of a new credit crunch as the global banking system struggles with massive levels of debt.



The ratings firm said it lowered the ratings for Bank of America, Barclays, BNP Paribas, Credit Suisse, Deutsche Bank, Goldman Sachs Group, Morgan Stanley and Societe Generale.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 00:07

Nick Cleggs now unhappy with the French and says so.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16222988

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 00:26

at the end of the day , nick clegg , is a puppet , all that's missing in westminster question time on bbc , is waldorf & statler

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 00:43

French MP in Sarkozeys party is being interviewed on Newsnight. He says he has been a EU sceptic and wishes France hadn't joined the Euro

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 16:54

Heres a turn up for the books: Sarkozy out on a limb as the Germans side with Cameron.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2075331/Sarkozy-limb-Germans-Cameron-devastating-triple-whammy-French-PM.html

cavalryman


Joined: 08/11/2010
Posts: 314

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 18:02

Better wait for hans to comment on the last post

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 18:46

Don't be too concerened about the arsey little frog he will be gone next April !

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
18/12/2011 13:02

Finnancial regulation of the city that will hinder its function, operation and disadvantage its players will lead to a migration to harbours that are more conjusive to making money quicker and easier.



Better regulation and control of massive and wealthy institutions such as banks, traders, investment houses and insurance companies is urgently needed in order to prevent the crminal and destructive events of 2008. Change must be effected across the globe and must be regulated internationally.

It is no use at all to target only the City. The effect on the UK economy would be catastrophic and the finnancial players will only move on to less regulated finnancial centres.



It is right and proper that our government hold out for what is a very important part of our economic herritage.

If the playing field is maintained flat and even, then the UK still has the lead in global finnance.